{"id":154439,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15475c6a65572086ccef2c12d918673f79f1e1a2ba657b02e25b8ce2492c85169a165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"15:49:42 - 16:05:46","影片長度":"00:16:04","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T15:49:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T16:05:46+08:00","duration":964,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時50分）主席好，麻煩請卓榮泰院長，還有文化部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢，請文化部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：院長好、部長好。先跟你請教一下，因為上個禮拜所謂有中共介入臺灣的政論節目，這件事情吵得非常的熱。昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑說找不到爆料者，看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海了。我覺得非常遺憾，我希望院長、部長可以拿出查案的精神把這個事情查出來。我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽，有一個唐僧剛下飛機就有記者問他對於陪酒小姐的看法，唐僧說臺北有小姐？結果第二天媒體的標題是「唐僧一到臺北，馬上問臺北有小姐嗎？」完全是標題殺人，後來隔天唐僧生氣了，記者又問他陪酒小姐的事，然後唐僧就說我不會再理你，隔天標題是說「唐僧一怒為紅顏」。我個人認為今天所謂的中共介入臺灣政論節目這個事情，很有可能就跟我剛剛講的網路笑話很像，一個不知名的消息來源爆料，記者跑去跟電視臺求證，電視臺說這個子虛烏有、一無所知，結果隔天電視臺可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來，然後民進黨的府院黨馬上就說這確有此事。請問一下「確有此事」查得怎麼樣？陸委會副主委梁文傑是推給文化部跟NCC，剛好今天教文組的文化部有來，我想問一下文化部長，請問一下，這個事情查得怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：對我們來講，我們的職權所在，我們只能去個文……"],["葉委員元之：現在查得怎麼樣？已經一個禮拜了。"],["李部長遠：OK，我們的職權，我們也不可能有調查權，我們只有行政調查……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！你的職權查得怎麼樣？就你的職權而言，查得怎麼樣了？"],["李部長遠：目前我們只能發文給當初邀請他的單位，我們只能做到這一步。"],["葉委員元之：你只有發文而已喔！"],["李部長遠：對，因為……"],["葉委員元之：哇！這麼嚴重的事情欸！中共都介入到我們媒體了，這麼嚴重的事情，你只有發文而已喔！"],["李部長遠：因為我們……"],["葉委員元之：文化部不把我們臺灣國安當一回事欸！"],["李部長遠：文化部也不是個調查單位。"],["葉委員元之：是嘛！可是因為各個機關都要分頭去查嘛！現在只有你在，我問你，結果你的態度是只有發文，感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛！沒有很嚴重？院長，這樣態度可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果事涉國家安全或牽涉到干涉媒體……"],["葉委員元之：嚴重吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然嚴重。"],["葉委員元之：那怎麼會只發文而已？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是任何一件事情都必須要去確切的掌握到資訊，瞭解到真相……"],["葉委員元之：對啦！很緊急的事情馬上就處理了，結果現在部長只發文，還公文旅行。"],["卓院長榮泰：文化部也好，或其他單位也好，第一個，只能依法行政，做自己業內該做的事情，除了文化部的發文之外，其他單位有沒有進一步的瞭解，這個我們要統合所有……"],["葉委員元之：院長，這個事情這麼嚴重，國安問題，結果你的態度是文化部就發文，其他也要瞭解，院長好像也無所謂的樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很重視……"],["葉委員元之：讓我不禁想到……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不希望有這個事實。"],["葉委員元之：讓我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件，2019年的時候，王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護，把自己講得跟中共版的007一樣，說他運用龐大資源介入臺灣選舉，還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長，然後隔年用一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選，結果當時蔡英文總統說一定要查，還派人到澳洲去瞭解，也是一樣，府院黨都把這個事情當一回事，甚至於把王立強咬出來在臺灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了，限制出境，查了半天，向心夫婦完全無罪，已經離開了，王立強呢？澳洲政府說「你要申請庇護，不可能！因為你就是個詐騙犯」，把他遣返了。結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官，有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思，誤信了詐騙犯？今天這個事情，對！中共介入政論節目，如果有，非常可惡！可是我現在看到的是船過水無痕，前幾天把他罵成這樣，現在文化部的態度是我發公文了，院長的態度是相關機關會去查，什麼時候會查出結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：要依法行政去瞭解……"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候會有……對，這件事情很嚴重，我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣船過水無痕，尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視臺，主持人已經連續好幾集在自清了。被指涉的那個是假日錄影的，也把所有來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了，所以要查一定可以查，拜託給國人一個交代，不要像王立強事件一樣，操作完了、抹紅完了，就船過水無痕，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望文化部既然……"],["葉委員元之：我不預設立場，但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。"],["卓院長榮泰：文化部既然已經有發文或是有相關的調查行為，應該把調查結果整理之後跟社會公布。我也很希望……"],["葉委員元之：文化部……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也很希望這件事情是沒有的，我也很希望。"],["葉委員元之：院長，這個事情到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料，傷害到別人的名譽……現在被指涉的人都一直自清，結果指控別人的卻好像沒事一樣，跟唐僧一樣啊，下飛機被問有沒有陪酒小姐，就變成好像他對陪酒小姐很有興趣，我們現在可以這樣子嗎？被罵的人要出來自清，指控別人卻可以隨便講話，然後又牽涉到國安，結果政府無所謂，這不是我們政府的態度吧！院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了，如果彙整出來以後，清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事，我也很希望沒有這樣的事情，表示我們的媒體自律是非常完善的。"],["葉委員元之：如果沒有的話，為什麼民進黨的立委可以去指控人家？為什麼那時候陸委會說確有其事？對不對？而且院長，今天陸委會副主委說找不到消息來源，明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊，不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎？它一定會說：不好意思，我不提供消息來源。問題是這牽涉到國安，何等重要啊！你媒體也有社會責任，為了國安，你不能夠交出消息來源嗎？所以只是要不要交的問題嘛！所以院長，拿出道德勇氣，給國人一個交代，不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我再進一步瞭解，再跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候可以給大家答案？"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：要瞭解多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：會儘快瞭解，因為這個不是很難的事情。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，一個禮拜可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為這個事情會造成社會動盪啦，我們希望國家可以和諧，一個禮拜好不好？你告訴大家。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有牽扯複雜情節的話，一個禮拜應該是足以瞭解事實真相。"],["葉委員元之：一點都不複雜啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，如果沒有的話，一個禮拜可以清楚。"],["葉委員元之：一個禮拜告訴大家這件事情到底是真的還是假的，然後如果是假的，陸委會說有，為什麼亂講？相關的責任查清楚，我們臺灣不要變成這樣，一直在國內找敵人。總統、院長是要團結臺灣，不是對立臺灣，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，是的。"],["葉委員元之：我們都與人為善，好不好？不要這樣找敵人。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為今天是教文組的質詢，我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題，其實我在教育及文化委員會，我就關心幾個議題，比如說108課綱、校園安全，還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等，很多教育議題我都推廣，我都非常關心，還有高齡教育等等，但是因為今天也沒有太多時間，我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論，有的跟部長也講過，但是有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道，所以今天特別來講。我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克《通往奴役之路》這本書裡面有一句話，他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪成的，這是他講的。我當然知道很多教育政策，大家都是出於善意，我們不希望這個善意讓我們的莘莘學子們通往地獄。如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿、現實很骨感。我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面，這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態，要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動，後面又列了非常多項的分項素養。院長，您認同這個108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎？應該是認同吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：就像委員所說的，它希望的是大家清楚自己的學習歷程，而且能夠展現自己的特色，而且能夠被激發出潛力，原意當然是這樣子、是好的。"],["葉委員元之：理想嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：理想要把它落實。"],["葉委員元之：但是這幾年，108課綱自從實施以來，每一年專家學者、老師、學生都提出各項各樣的檢討，我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差、理想與現實的落差而做任何調整，所以今天特別來跟院長講。如果大家認同這需要調整的話，應該要拿出行動力，而不是每一年都在檢討一樣的事情。像我待會要講的東西，去年也有人講過，前年也有人講過，但是從來沒有人去調整。118課綱現在就要訂定了，在訂定118課綱時，有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失的部分做一些整理？我先簡述一下108課綱的問題，很多老師跟我說，現在108課綱就是把必修課減少，變成選修課，大概減少四分之一的必修課，所以老師必須要去準備選修課，第一個，壓力變大，但是工作時數沒有減少；第二，很多學生參加選修課的時候，他要繳的報告，他不是考試，他要繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查報告，就是要有研究問題、研究方法，最後要有結論的，那個必須要大學、碩士可能才有類似素養所做出來的東西，學生壓力也變得非常大，那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告，所以時間都會影響到他的教學品質，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，學校說，忽然間108課綱增加了非常多東西，例如學習歷程檔案，但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support，所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的。再來我們看學生的意見，因為學生才是實際上接受這個課綱的人，我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EdYouth，這個單位有幾位是大學生、有臺大的、政治系的，還有一些高中生，他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討，而且他們的檢討是有憑有據，他們是發問卷，問卷對象是一千多份，他們在做課綱研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來，但每一次教育部官員來聽完他們的建議之後，修改的是少之又少！","我就舉一個例子，因為今天時間不多，我就舉一項──學習歷程檔案，這是他們做的調查，針對學習歷程檔案有超過50%的學生覺得需要有校園的系統來支持，為什麼？因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業。那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題？我們可以來看一下，比如第一個，學習歷程檔案雖然大家做得非常辛苦，可是很多大學在招生的時候，第一階段看的還是學測的成績，你們可以去瞭解一下到底有多少大學教授會很認真看學生的學習歷程檔案，這個教育部也可以去查，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，學習歷程檔案很強調要學生去做自我探索，對吧？自我探索。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是你覺得他們這樣有探索到嗎？有的是先射箭再畫靶，從小家長叫他學醫，所以他在學習歷程檔案中全部都往醫學院方向去寫；有的是探索到高二、高三之後，忽然發現他的志趣跟他過去探索的都不一樣，可是完了！他過去的學習歷程檔案做的都是另外一個方向，產生極大的焦慮！再來更不要講學習歷程檔案很多人都外包，網路上一查，外面很多補習班都是在幫人家學習歷程檔案，所以這個問題很嚴重。我們剛剛看到，學生他們在做學習歷程檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家，但不知道問誰啊！也產生很大的焦慮，這都是學生的意見。","我剛剛把我所知道的，有老師的反應、學生的反應，更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一，所以現在要讀專業科目的時候，很多東西都很粗糙、很粗略，沒有辦法讀到細節。例如讀歷史，現在歷史很多都是很簡單，沒有故事性、沒有脈絡，學生就必須去記那個年分跟發生的事情，失去了對整個歷史的興趣。歷史就是要鑑古知今，它有一個脈絡，有環境的影響、細節的影響、人事物的影響，有時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣，所以這個108課綱是有很多問題的。","我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長、部長回答，我現在只希望一件事情，就是能不能夠真的認真召開一個委員會或者什麼會議，你把很多人的意見納進來，然後真的來做一個檢討？這些檢討報告當然可以逐步地修改，或者是118課綱的時候可以針對108課綱所衍生的問題做調整，不知道院長跟部長能不能做到？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，委員的這個建議是必定會做的，從檢討過去到策勵未來……"],["葉委員元之：現在都沒在做，院長，因為你去……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也知道我們四個升學的管道，不論是繁星計畫、申請入學、分科分發，或者是特殊選才，都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去，除了學測之外，有高中在校的成續、有學習過程、一些特殊的選才過程，還有一些就是像學測，都有固定的人數從這四個不同管道進去。但是能不能像剛剛委員所說的，除了學測之外，確實注意到他的學習歷程或是對於其他的科目類別的選項，這個要去檢討。"],["葉委員元之：院長，我覺得你的回答好像沒有聽懂我講的，你講的只是分發，就是考招的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：我講的是學習的部分，我講的是108課綱學習的部分。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要納入這個檢討。"],["葉委員元之：因為現在就是，我特別來總質詢、在那麼重要的時間來講，我是希望，因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情，可是我們不曾看到有調整，希望大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整，去回應社會或學界的需求。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上有許多大學也看到高中原來開了許多選修課，有一定比例的大學包括臺、成、清、交、中山的教授開……"],["葉委員元之：部長，好處一定有，我現在指出的是缺失，我們有缺失就要去調整嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：我希望你考100分，你說你考了30分，其實也不錯，那這樣……"],["鄭部長英耀：不會的！我們對教育品質一定是有堅持的。"],["葉委員元之：我們希望至少能夠70分、80分、90分、100分啦！好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請教育部檢討現行課綱真正執行下來的一個問題，作為未來的策勵。"],["葉委員元之：對，沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是瞭解現在的善意，以後通向天堂。"],["葉委員元之：對。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，教育及文化組之質詢已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。現作以下決定：下次會議進行交通組之質詢。我們現在散會，謝謝。","散會（16時6分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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248.18, \"text\": \"那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 234.861, \"end\": 235.141, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 235.141, \"end\": 235.802, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 235.802, \"end\": 236.043, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 236.043, \"end\": 236.183, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 236.183, \"end\": 236.483, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 236.483, \"end\": 236.664, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 236.664, \"end\": 237.004, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 237.004, \"end\": 237.144, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"澳\", \"start\": 237.144, \"end\": 237.325, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"洲\", \"start\": 237.325, \"end\": 237.645, \"score\": 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525.252, \"end\": 525.272, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 527.89, \"end\": 539.422, \"text\": \"這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 527.89, \"end\": 528.351, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"課\"}, {\"word\": \"綱\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 528.351, \"end\": 528.571, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 528.571, \"end\": 528.791, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 528.791, \"end\": 528.991, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.991, \"end\": 529.131, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 529.131, \"end\": 529.311, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 529.311, \"end\": 530.112, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 530.112, \"end\": 530.433, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 530.433, 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0.957}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 567.176, \"end\": 567.376, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 567.376, \"end\": 567.496, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 567.496, \"end\": 567.776, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 567.776, \"end\": 568.217, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 568.217, \"end\": 568.357, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 568.357, \"end\": 568.917, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 568.917, \"end\": 569.077, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 569.077, \"end\": 569.218, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 569.218, \"end\": 569.318, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 569.318, \"end\": 569.458, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 569.458, \"end\": 569.578, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 569.578, \"end\": 569.958, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 569.958, \"end\": 570.599, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 570.599, \"end\": 570.699, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 570.699, \"end\": 570.759, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 570.759, \"end\": 570.859, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 570.859, \"end\": 571.019, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 571.019, \"end\": 571.119, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 571.119, \"end\": 571.359, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 571.359, \"end\": 571.479, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 571.479, \"end\": 571.499, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}]}, {\"start\": 572.731, \"end\": 596.518, \"text\": \"如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 572.731, 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\"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 923.349, \"end\": 923.489, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 923.489, \"end\": 923.749, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 923.749, \"end\": 923.769, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:27,023 --> 00:00:34,611\n主席好麻煩請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長麻煩再請卓院長備詢文化部備詢\n\n2\n00:00:42,191 --> 00:00:56,336\n院長好部長好先跟請教一下因為先上禮拜所謂的有中共介入到臺灣的政任節目這事情吵得非常的熱昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑他說找不到爆料者\n\n3\n00:00:56,876 --> 00:01:19,805\n看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海那我覺得非常遺憾我希望說院長部長可以拿出這個查案的精神把這個事情查出來我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽有一個唐森,這是網路笑話唐森剛下飛機就有記者問他對陪酒小姐的看法\n\n4\n00:01:20,345 --> 00:01:29,405\n唐森說臺北有小姐然後結果第二天媒體的標題是說唐森一到臺北馬上問臺北有小姐嗎完全是標題殺人\n\n5\n00:01:30,663 --> 00:01:49,752\n後來隔天唐生生氣了記者又問他陪酒小姐的事唐生說然後唐生就說我不會再理你隔天標題是說唐生一怒為紅顏那我個人認為今天這個中共所謂的中共介入臺灣政人節目這個事情很有可能就跟我剛剛講的那個網路笑話很像\n\n6\n00:01:50,552 --> 00:02:15,422\n一個不知名的消息來源做了一個爆料記者跑去跟電視台求證電視台說這個只需烏有一無所知結果隔天電視台可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來然後結果我們的府院黨啊民進黨府院黨馬上就說啊這確有此事此事那那請問一下確有此事查查的怎麼樣我我因為\n\n7\n00:02:16,407 --> 00:02:44,432\n梁文傑陸委會副組委推給文化部跟NCC剛好我們今天教文組文化部有來我想問一下文化部長請問一下這個事情查得怎麼樣對我們來講我們就是我們的職權所在現在查得怎麼樣現在查得怎麼樣已經一個禮拜了我們的職權我們也不可能有那個調查權你的職權查得怎麼樣就你的職權而言查得怎麼樣目前我們只能發文給這個當初邀請他的單位\n\n8\n00:02:45,092 --> 00:03:08,391\n你只有發文而已喔?哇這麼嚴重的事情欸中共都介入到我們媒體了這麼嚴重的事情你只有發文而已喔?那你文化部不把我們台灣國安當一回事欸文化部也不是個調查人是嘛可是因為各個機關都分頭去查嘛阿我現在只有你在我問你只有你的態度是我只有發文那感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛沒有很嚴重院長這樣態度可以嗎院長\n\n9\n00:03:14,076 --> 00:03:35,385\n如果是涉到國家安全或牽涉到單色媒體當然嚴重但是任何一件事情都必須要去切切的掌握到資訊了解到真相很緊急的事情馬上就處理了結果你現在部長只發文還公文履行文化部也好或其他單位也好第一個只能依法行政做自己業內該做的事情\n\n10\n00:03:35,985 --> 00:03:51,523\n那除了文化部的發文之外,其他單位有沒有進一步的了解,這個我們要統合。院長,這個事情這麼嚴重,國安問題,結果你的態度是說,哎呀,文化部就發文,其他也要了解,你院長好像也無所謂這樣子。我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件。\n\n11\n00:03:54,861 --> 00:04:08,180\n那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果\n\n12\n00:04:10,123 --> 00:04:32,157\n那當時蔡英文總統說一定要查還派人到澳洲去了解也是一樣府院黨都把這個事情當一回事甚至於把王立強咬出來的在台灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了限制出境就查了半天向心夫婦完全無罪已經離開了王立強呢澳洲政府說你要申請庇護不可能因為你這個詐騙犯把他遣返了\n\n13\n00:04:33,030 --> 00:04:53,299\n結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思我誤信了詐騙犯那今天這個事情對中共介入這段節目如果有非常可惡可是我現在看到是說傳過水無痕前幾天把他罵成這樣現在文化部的態度是說我發公文了\n\n14\n00:04:53,999 --> 00:05:08,572\n院長態度是說相關機關會去查。什麼時候會查出來結果?要依法行政這件事情很嚴重。我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣傳過水無痕。尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視台。\n\n15\n00:05:10,033 --> 00:05:28,328\n主持人已經連續好幾集在致卿了啦也把所有因為那個是假日的那個他們被指涉是假日錄影的嘛所有的人來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了所以要查一定可以查拜託給國人一個交代不要像王立強事件一樣操作完了\n\n16\n00:05:29,408 --> 00:05:57,250\n我紅完了。傳過水無痕。院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後跟社會公佈。我也很希望這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。\n\n17\n00:05:58,391 --> 00:06:09,341\n下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐,就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊。我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親,指控別人可以隨便講話,然後又牽涉到國安,結果政府無所謂。\n\n18\n00:06:11,636 --> 00:06:33,299\n這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長。我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後,清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事。我也很希望沒有這樣的事情,表示我們的媒體自律非常完善的。如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家,為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視,對不對?而且院長,今天\n\n19\n00:06:34,554 --> 00:06:54,186\n委會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛\n\n20\n00:06:55,489 --> 00:07:07,314\n所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久\n\n21\n00:07:09,644 --> 00:07:36,705\n會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啦,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有覺得,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以清楚。一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的、假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任。查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。\n\n22\n00:07:38,707 --> 00:07:55,383\n總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣吵敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。\n\n23\n00:07:58,291 --> 00:08:27,460\n比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的\n\n24\n00:08:28,376 --> 00:08:45,272\n那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面\n\n25\n00:08:47,890 --> 00:08:59,422\n這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?\n\n26\n00:09:02,998 --> 00:09:31,499\n就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講\n\n27\n00:09:32,731 --> 00:09:56,518\n如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題\n\n28\n00:09:58,151 --> 00:10:13,888\n很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義馬克剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以,老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生\n\n29\n00:10:15,188 --> 00:10:35,760\n在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以\n\n30\n00:10:38,260 --> 00:10:56,272\n時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的\n\n31\n00:10:57,563 --> 00:11:25,897\n再來就是我看學生的意見,因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人。我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS,這個單位有幾位是大學生,有台大的、政治系的,還有一些高中生,他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討,而且他們的檢討是有憑有據,他們是發問卷,問卷對象是一千多份。他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來,\n\n32\n00:11:27,113 --> 00:11:53,278\n但每一次加入官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案這是他們做的調查學習歷程檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個\n\n33\n00:11:54,418 --> 00:11:55,560\n這第一件事情。第二件事情\n\n34\n00:12:12,575 --> 00:12:31,334\n學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索。對吧?自我的探索。但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃拔啦。從小家長叫他學醫。所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。\n\n35\n00:12:32,435 --> 00:12:43,845\n有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮\n\n36\n00:12:45,455 --> 00:13:11,000\n所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦。網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案。所以這個問題很嚴重。然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案、學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家,不知道問誰啊,也產生很大的焦慮。這都是學生的意見。我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應,\n\n37\n00:13:12,236 --> 00:13:35,807\n學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛\n\n38\n00:13:36,127 --> 00:13:53,564\n他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個\n\n39\n00:13:54,591 --> 00:14:22,867\n委員會或者什麼會議,你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來,然後真的來做一個檢討,然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改,或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整,不知道院長跟部長能不能做到。謝謝委員,這個建議是必定會做的,從檢討過去到策略未來。現在都沒在做院長。\n\n40\n00:14:25,170 --> 00:14:43,587\n也知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測\n\n41\n00:14:44,708 --> 00:14:48,112\n我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講,你講的只是分發就是考照部分,我講的是學習的部分。\n\n42\n00:15:04,432 --> 00:15:21,047\n我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告對我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應\n\n43\n00:15:22,429 --> 00:15:23,769\n社會或學界的需求。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n27023\t34611\t主席好麻煩請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長麻煩再請卓院長備詢文化部備詢\n42191\t56336\t院長好部長好先跟請教一下因為先上禮拜所謂的有中共介入到臺灣的政任節目這事情吵得非常的熱昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑他說找不到爆料者\n56876\t79805\t看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海那我覺得非常遺憾我希望說院長部長可以拿出這個查案的精神把這個事情查出來我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽有一個唐森,這是網路笑話唐森剛下飛機就有記者問他對陪酒小姐的看法\n80345\t89405\t唐森說臺北有小姐然後結果第二天媒體的標題是說唐森一到臺北馬上問臺北有小姐嗎完全是標題殺人\n90663\t109752\t後來隔天唐生生氣了記者又問他陪酒小姐的事唐生說然後唐生就說我不會再理你隔天標題是說唐生一怒為紅顏那我個人認為今天這個中共所謂的中共介入臺灣政人節目這個事情很有可能就跟我剛剛講的那個網路笑話很像\n110552\t135422\t一個不知名的消息來源做了一個爆料記者跑去跟電視台求證電視台說這個只需烏有一無所知結果隔天電視台可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來然後結果我們的府院黨啊民進黨府院黨馬上就說啊這確有此事此事那那請問一下確有此事查查的怎麼樣我我因為\n136407\t164432\t梁文傑陸委會副組委推給文化部跟NCC剛好我們今天教文組文化部有來我想問一下文化部長請問一下這個事情查得怎麼樣對我們來講我們就是我們的職權所在現在查得怎麼樣現在查得怎麼樣已經一個禮拜了我們的職權我們也不可能有那個調查權你的職權查得怎麼樣就你的職權而言查得怎麼樣目前我們只能發文給這個當初邀請他的單位\n165092\t188391\t你只有發文而已喔?哇這麼嚴重的事情欸中共都介入到我們媒體了這麼嚴重的事情你只有發文而已喔?那你文化部不把我們台灣國安當一回事欸文化部也不是個調查人是嘛可是因為各個機關都分頭去查嘛阿我現在只有你在我問你只有你的態度是我只有發文那感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛沒有很嚴重院長這樣態度可以嗎院長\n194076\t215385\t如果是涉到國家安全或牽涉到單色媒體當然嚴重但是任何一件事情都必須要去切切的掌握到資訊了解到真相很緊急的事情馬上就處理了結果你現在部長只發文還公文履行文化部也好或其他單位也好第一個只能依法行政做自己業內該做的事情\n215985\t231523\t那除了文化部的發文之外,其他單位有沒有進一步的了解,這個我們要統合。院長,這個事情這麼嚴重,國安問題,結果你的態度是說,哎呀,文化部就發文,其他也要了解,你院長好像也無所謂這樣子。我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件。\n234861\t248180\t那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果\n250123\t272157\t那當時蔡英文總統說一定要查還派人到澳洲去了解也是一樣府院黨都把這個事情當一回事甚至於把王立強咬出來的在台灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了限制出境就查了半天向心夫婦完全無罪已經離開了王立強呢澳洲政府說你要申請庇護不可能因為你這個詐騙犯把他遣返了\n273030\t293299\t結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思我誤信了詐騙犯那今天這個事情對中共介入這段節目如果有非常可惡可是我現在看到是說傳過水無痕前幾天把他罵成這樣現在文化部的態度是說我發公文了\n293999\t308572\t院長態度是說相關機關會去查。什麼時候會查出來結果?要依法行政這件事情很嚴重。我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣傳過水無痕。尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視台。\n310033\t328328\t主持人已經連續好幾集在致卿了啦也把所有因為那個是假日的那個他們被指涉是假日錄影的嘛所有的人來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了所以要查一定可以查拜託給國人一個交代不要像王立強事件一樣操作完了\n329408\t357250\t我紅完了。傳過水無痕。 院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後跟社會公佈。我也很希望這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。\n358391\t369341\t下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐,就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊。我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親,指控別人可以隨便講話,然後又牽涉到國安,結果政府無所謂。\n371636\t393299\t這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長。我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後,清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事。我也很希望沒有這樣的事情,表示我們的媒體自律非常完善的。如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家,為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視,對不對?而且院長,今天\n394554\t414186\t委會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛\n415489\t427314\t所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久\n429644\t456705\t會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啦,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有覺得,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以清楚。一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的、假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任。查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。\n458707\t475383\t總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣吵敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。\n478291\t507460\t比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的\n508376\t525272\t那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面\n527890\t539422\t這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?\n542998\t571499\t就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講\n572731\t596518\t如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題\n598151\t613888\t很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義馬克剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以,老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生\n615188\t635760\t在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以\n638260\t656272\t時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的\n657563\t685897\t再來就是我看學生的意見,因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人。我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS,這個單位有幾位是大學生,有台大的、政治系的,還有一些高中生,他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討,而且他們的檢討是有憑有據,他們是發問卷,問卷對象是一千多份。他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來,\n687113\t713278\t但每一次加入官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案這是他們做的調查學習歷程檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個\n714418\t715560\t這第一件事情。第二件事情\n732575\t751334\t學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索。對吧?自我的探索。但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃拔啦。從小家長叫他學醫。所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。\n752435\t763845\t有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮\n765455\t791000\t所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦。網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案。所以這個問題很嚴重。然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案、學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家,不知道問誰啊,也產生很大的焦慮。這都是學生的意見。我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應,\n792236\t815807\t學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛\n816127\t833564\t他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個\n834591\t862867\t委員會或者什麼會議,你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來,然後真的來做一個檢討,然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改,或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整,不知道院長跟部長能不能做到。謝謝委員,這個建議是必定會做的,從檢討過去到策略未來。現在都沒在做院長。\n865170\t883587\t也知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測\n884708\t888112\t我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講,你講的只是分發就是考照部分,我講的是學習的部分。\n904432\t921047\t我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告對我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應\n922429\t923769\t社會或學界的需求。\n","txt":"主席好麻煩請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長麻煩再請卓院長備詢文化部備詢\n院長好部長好先跟請教一下因為先上禮拜所謂的有中共介入到臺灣的政任節目這事情吵得非常的熱昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑他說找不到爆料者\n看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海那我覺得非常遺憾我希望說院長部長可以拿出這個查案的精神把這個事情查出來我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽有一個唐森,這是網路笑話唐森剛下飛機就有記者問他對陪酒小姐的看法\n唐森說臺北有小姐然後結果第二天媒體的標題是說唐森一到臺北馬上問臺北有小姐嗎完全是標題殺人\n後來隔天唐生生氣了記者又問他陪酒小姐的事唐生說然後唐生就說我不會再理你隔天標題是說唐生一怒為紅顏那我個人認為今天這個中共所謂的中共介入臺灣政人節目這個事情很有可能就跟我剛剛講的那個網路笑話很像\n一個不知名的消息來源做了一個爆料記者跑去跟電視台求證電視台說這個只需烏有一無所知結果隔天電視台可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來然後結果我們的府院黨啊民進黨府院黨馬上就說啊這確有此事此事那那請問一下確有此事查查的怎麼樣我我因為\n梁文傑陸委會副組委推給文化部跟NCC剛好我們今天教文組文化部有來我想問一下文化部長請問一下這個事情查得怎麼樣對我們來講我們就是我們的職權所在現在查得怎麼樣現在查得怎麼樣已經一個禮拜了我們的職權我們也不可能有那個調查權你的職權查得怎麼樣就你的職權而言查得怎麼樣目前我們只能發文給這個當初邀請他的單位\n你只有發文而已喔?哇這麼嚴重的事情欸中共都介入到我們媒體了這麼嚴重的事情你只有發文而已喔?那你文化部不把我們台灣國安當一回事欸文化部也不是個調查人是嘛可是因為各個機關都分頭去查嘛阿我現在只有你在我問你只有你的態度是我只有發文那感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛沒有很嚴重院長這樣態度可以嗎院長\n如果是涉到國家安全或牽涉到單色媒體當然嚴重但是任何一件事情都必須要去切切的掌握到資訊了解到真相很緊急的事情馬上就處理了結果你現在部長只發文還公文履行文化部也好或其他單位也好第一個只能依法行政做自己業內該做的事情\n那除了文化部的發文之外,其他單位有沒有進一步的了解,這個我們要統合。院長,這個事情這麼嚴重,國安問題,結果你的態度是說,哎呀,文化部就發文,其他也要了解,你院長好像也無所謂這樣子。我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件。\n那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果\n那當時蔡英文總統說一定要查還派人到澳洲去了解也是一樣府院黨都把這個事情當一回事甚至於把王立強咬出來的在台灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了限制出境就查了半天向心夫婦完全無罪已經離開了王立強呢澳洲政府說你要申請庇護不可能因為你這個詐騙犯把他遣返了\n結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思我誤信了詐騙犯那今天這個事情對中共介入這段節目如果有非常可惡可是我現在看到是說傳過水無痕前幾天把他罵成這樣現在文化部的態度是說我發公文了\n院長態度是說相關機關會去查。什麼時候會查出來結果?要依法行政這件事情很嚴重。我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣傳過水無痕。尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視台。\n主持人已經連續好幾集在致卿了啦也把所有因為那個是假日的那個他們被指涉是假日錄影的嘛所有的人來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了所以要查一定可以查拜託給國人一個交代不要像王立強事件一樣操作完了\n我紅完了。傳過水無痕。 院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後跟社會公佈。我也很希望這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。\n下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐,就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊。我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親,指控別人可以隨便講話,然後又牽涉到國安,結果政府無所謂。\n這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長。我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後,清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事。我也很希望沒有這樣的事情,表示我們的媒體自律非常完善的。如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家,為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視,對不對?而且院長,今天\n委會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛\n所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久\n會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啦,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有覺得,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以清楚。一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的、假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任。查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。\n總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣吵敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。\n比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的\n那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面\n這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?\n就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講\n如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題\n很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義馬克剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以,老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生\n在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以\n時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的\n再來就是我看學生的意見,因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人。我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS,這個單位有幾位是大學生,有台大的、政治系的,還有一些高中生,他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討,而且他們的檢討是有憑有據,他們是發問卷,問卷對象是一千多份。他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來,\n但每一次加入官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案這是他們做的調查學習歷程檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個\n這第一件事情。第二件事情\n學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索。對吧?自我的探索。但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃拔啦。從小家長叫他學醫。所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。\n有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮\n所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦。網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案。所以這個問題很嚴重。然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案、學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家,不知道問誰啊,也產生很大的焦慮。這都是學生的意見。我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應,\n學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛\n他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個\n委員會或者什麼會議,你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來,然後真的來做一個檢討,然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改,或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整,不知道院長跟部長能不能做到。謝謝委員,這個建議是必定會做的,從檢討過去到策略未來。現在都沒在做院長。\n也知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測\n我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講,你講的只是分發就是考照部分,我講的是學習的部分。\n我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告對我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應\n社會或學界的需求。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:27.023 --> 00:34.611\n主席好麻煩請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長麻煩再請卓院長備詢文化部備詢\n\n00:42.191 --> 00:56.336\n院長好部長好先跟請教一下因為先上禮拜所謂的有中共介入到臺灣的政任節目這事情吵得非常的熱昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑他說找不到爆料者\n\n00:56.876 --> 01:19.805\n看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海那我覺得非常遺憾我希望說院長部長可以拿出這個查案的精神把這個事情查出來我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽有一個唐森,這是網路笑話唐森剛下飛機就有記者問他對陪酒小姐的看法\n\n01:20.345 --> 01:29.405\n唐森說臺北有小姐然後結果第二天媒體的標題是說唐森一到臺北馬上問臺北有小姐嗎完全是標題殺人\n\n01:30.663 --> 01:49.752\n後來隔天唐生生氣了記者又問他陪酒小姐的事唐生說然後唐生就說我不會再理你隔天標題是說唐生一怒為紅顏那我個人認為今天這個中共所謂的中共介入臺灣政人節目這個事情很有可能就跟我剛剛講的那個網路笑話很像\n\n01:50.552 --> 02:15.422\n一個不知名的消息來源做了一個爆料記者跑去跟電視台求證電視台說這個只需烏有一無所知結果隔天電視台可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來然後結果我們的府院黨啊民進黨府院黨馬上就說啊這確有此事此事那那請問一下確有此事查查的怎麼樣我我因為\n\n02:16.407 --> 02:44.432\n梁文傑陸委會副組委推給文化部跟NCC剛好我們今天教文組文化部有來我想問一下文化部長請問一下這個事情查得怎麼樣對我們來講我們就是我們的職權所在現在查得怎麼樣現在查得怎麼樣已經一個禮拜了我們的職權我們也不可能有那個調查權你的職權查得怎麼樣就你的職權而言查得怎麼樣目前我們只能發文給這個當初邀請他的單位\n\n02:45.092 --> 03:08.391\n你只有發文而已喔?哇這麼嚴重的事情欸中共都介入到我們媒體了這麼嚴重的事情你只有發文而已喔?那你文化部不把我們台灣國安當一回事欸文化部也不是個調查人是嘛可是因為各個機關都分頭去查嘛阿我現在只有你在我問你只有你的態度是我只有發文那感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛沒有很嚴重院長這樣態度可以嗎院長\n\n03:14.076 --> 03:35.385\n如果是涉到國家安全或牽涉到單色媒體當然嚴重但是任何一件事情都必須要去切切的掌握到資訊了解到真相很緊急的事情馬上就處理了結果你現在部長只發文還公文履行文化部也好或其他單位也好第一個只能依法行政做自己業內該做的事情\n\n03:35.985 --> 03:51.523\n那除了文化部的發文之外,其他單位有沒有進一步的了解,這個我們要統合。院長,這個事情這麼嚴重,國安問題,結果你的態度是說,哎呀,文化部就發文,其他也要了解,你院長好像也無所謂這樣子。我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件。\n\n03:54.861 --> 04:08.180\n那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果\n\n04:10.123 --> 04:32.157\n那當時蔡英文總統說一定要查還派人到澳洲去了解也是一樣府院黨都把這個事情當一回事甚至於把王立強咬出來的在台灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了限制出境就查了半天向心夫婦完全無罪已經離開了王立強呢澳洲政府說你要申請庇護不可能因為你這個詐騙犯把他遣返了\n\n04:33.030 --> 04:53.299\n結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思我誤信了詐騙犯那今天這個事情對中共介入這段節目如果有非常可惡可是我現在看到是說傳過水無痕前幾天把他罵成這樣現在文化部的態度是說我發公文了\n\n04:53.999 --> 05:08.572\n院長態度是說相關機關會去查。什麼時候會查出來結果?要依法行政這件事情很嚴重。我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣傳過水無痕。尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視台。\n\n05:10.033 --> 05:28.328\n主持人已經連續好幾集在致卿了啦也把所有因為那個是假日的那個他們被指涉是假日錄影的嘛所有的人來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了所以要查一定可以查拜託給國人一個交代不要像王立強事件一樣操作完了\n\n05:29.408 --> 05:57.250\n我紅完了。傳過水無痕。院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後跟社會公佈。我也很希望這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。\n\n05:58.391 --> 06:09.341\n下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐,就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊。我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親,指控別人可以隨便講話,然後又牽涉到國安,結果政府無所謂。\n\n06:11.636 --> 06:33.299\n這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長。我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後,清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事。我也很希望沒有這樣的事情,表示我們的媒體自律非常完善的。如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家,為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視,對不對?而且院長,今天\n\n06:34.554 --> 06:54.186\n委會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛\n\n06:55.489 --> 07:07.314\n所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久\n\n07:09.644 --> 07:36.705\n會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啦,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有覺得,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以清楚。一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的、假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任。查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。\n\n07:38.707 --> 07:55.383\n總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣吵敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。\n\n07:58.291 --> 08:27.460\n比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的\n\n08:28.376 --> 08:45.272\n那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面\n\n08:47.890 --> 08:59.422\n這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?\n\n09:02.998 --> 09:31.499\n就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講\n\n09:32.731 --> 09:56.518\n如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題\n\n09:58.151 --> 10:13.888\n很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義馬克剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以,老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生\n\n10:15.188 --> 10:35.760\n在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以\n\n10:38.260 --> 10:56.272\n時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的\n\n10:57.563 --> 11:25.897\n再來就是我看學生的意見,因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人。我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS,這個單位有幾位是大學生,有台大的、政治系的,還有一些高中生,他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討,而且他們的檢討是有憑有據,他們是發問卷,問卷對象是一千多份。他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來,\n\n11:27.113 --> 11:53.278\n但每一次加入官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案這是他們做的調查學習歷程檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個\n\n11:54.418 --> 11:55.560\n這第一件事情。第二件事情\n\n12:12.575 --> 12:31.334\n學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索。對吧?自我的探索。但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃拔啦。從小家長叫他學醫。所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。\n\n12:32.435 --> 12:43.845\n有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮\n\n12:45.455 --> 13:11.000\n所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦。網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案。所以這個問題很嚴重。然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案、學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家,不知道問誰啊,也產生很大的焦慮。這都是學生的意見。我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應,\n\n13:12.236 --> 13:35.807\n學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛\n\n13:36.127 --> 13:53.564\n他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個\n\n13:54.591 --> 14:22.867\n委員會或者什麼會議,你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來,然後真的來做一個檢討,然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改,或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整,不知道院長跟部長能不能做到。謝謝委員,這個建議是必定會做的,從檢討過去到策略未來。現在都沒在做院長。\n\n14:25.170 --> 14:43.587\n也知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測\n\n14:44.708 --> 14:48.112\n我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講,你講的只是分發就是考照部分,我講的是學習的部分。\n\n15:04.432 --> 15:21.047\n我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告對我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應\n\n15:22.429 --> 15:23.769\n社會或學界的需求。\n\n","segments":[{"start":27.023,"end":34.611,"text":"主席好麻煩請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長麻煩再請卓院長備詢文化部備詢"},{"start":42.191,"end":56.336,"text":"院長好部長好先跟請教一下因為先上禮拜所謂的有中共介入到臺灣的政任節目這事情吵得非常的熱昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑他說找不到爆料者"},{"start":56.876,"end":79.805,"text":"看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海那我覺得非常遺憾我希望說院長部長可以拿出這個查案的精神把這個事情查出來我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽有一個唐森,這是網路笑話唐森剛下飛機就有記者問他對陪酒小姐的看法"},{"start":80.345,"end":89.405,"text":"唐森說臺北有小姐然後結果第二天媒體的標題是說唐森一到臺北馬上問臺北有小姐嗎完全是標題殺人"},{"start":90.663,"end":109.752,"text":"後來隔天唐生生氣了記者又問他陪酒小姐的事唐生說然後唐生就說我不會再理你隔天標題是說唐生一怒為紅顏那我個人認為今天這個中共所謂的中共介入臺灣政人節目這個事情很有可能就跟我剛剛講的那個網路笑話很像"},{"start":110.552,"end":135.422,"text":"一個不知名的消息來源做了一個爆料記者跑去跟電視台求證電視台說這個只需烏有一無所知結果隔天電視台可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來然後結果我們的府院黨啊民進黨府院黨馬上就說啊這確有此事此事那那請問一下確有此事查查的怎麼樣我我因為"},{"start":136.407,"end":164.432,"text":"梁文傑陸委會副組委推給文化部跟NCC剛好我們今天教文組文化部有來我想問一下文化部長請問一下這個事情查得怎麼樣對我們來講我們就是我們的職權所在現在查得怎麼樣現在查得怎麼樣已經一個禮拜了我們的職權我們也不可能有那個調查權你的職權查得怎麼樣就你的職權而言查得怎麼樣目前我們只能發文給這個當初邀請他的單位"},{"start":165.092,"end":188.391,"text":"你只有發文而已喔?哇這麼嚴重的事情欸中共都介入到我們媒體了這麼嚴重的事情你只有發文而已喔?那你文化部不把我們台灣國安當一回事欸文化部也不是個調查人是嘛可是因為各個機關都分頭去查嘛阿我現在只有你在我問你只有你的態度是我只有發文那感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛沒有很嚴重院長這樣態度可以嗎院長"},{"start":194.076,"end":215.385,"text":"如果是涉到國家安全或牽涉到單色媒體當然嚴重但是任何一件事情都必須要去切切的掌握到資訊了解到真相很緊急的事情馬上就處理了結果你現在部長只發文還公文履行文化部也好或其他單位也好第一個只能依法行政做自己業內該做的事情"},{"start":215.985,"end":231.523,"text":"那除了文化部的發文之外,其他單位有沒有進一步的了解,這個我們要統合。院長,這個事情這麼嚴重,國安問題,結果你的態度是說,哎呀,文化部就發文,其他也要了解,你院長好像也無所謂這樣子。我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件。"},{"start":234.861,"end":248.18,"text":"那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果"},{"start":250.123,"end":272.157,"text":"那當時蔡英文總統說一定要查還派人到澳洲去了解也是一樣府院黨都把這個事情當一回事甚至於把王立強咬出來的在台灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了限制出境就查了半天向心夫婦完全無罪已經離開了王立強呢澳洲政府說你要申請庇護不可能因為你這個詐騙犯把他遣返了"},{"start":273.03,"end":293.299,"text":"結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思我誤信了詐騙犯那今天這個事情對中共介入這段節目如果有非常可惡可是我現在看到是說傳過水無痕前幾天把他罵成這樣現在文化部的態度是說我發公文了"},{"start":293.999,"end":308.572,"text":"院長態度是說相關機關會去查。什麼時候會查出來結果?要依法行政這件事情很嚴重。我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣傳過水無痕。尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視台。"},{"start":310.033,"end":328.328,"text":"主持人已經連續好幾集在致卿了啦也把所有因為那個是假日的那個他們被指涉是假日錄影的嘛所有的人來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了所以要查一定可以查拜託給國人一個交代不要像王立強事件一樣操作完了"},{"start":329.408,"end":357.25,"text":"我紅完了。傳過水無痕。 院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後跟社會公佈。我也很希望這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。"},{"start":358.391,"end":369.341,"text":"下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐,就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊。我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親,指控別人可以隨便講話,然後又牽涉到國安,結果政府無所謂。"},{"start":371.636,"end":393.299,"text":"這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長。我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後,清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事。我也很希望沒有這樣的事情,表示我們的媒體自律非常完善的。如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家,為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視,對不對?而且院長,今天"},{"start":394.554,"end":414.186,"text":"委會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛"},{"start":415.489,"end":427.314,"text":"所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久"},{"start":429.644,"end":456.705,"text":"會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啦,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有覺得,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以清楚。一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的、假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任。查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。"},{"start":458.707,"end":475.383,"text":"總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣吵敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。"},{"start":478.291,"end":507.46,"text":"比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的"},{"start":508.376,"end":525.272,"text":"那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面"},{"start":527.89,"end":539.422,"text":"這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?"},{"start":542.998,"end":571.499,"text":"就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講"},{"start":572.731,"end":596.518,"text":"如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題"},{"start":598.151,"end":613.888,"text":"很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義馬克剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以,老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生"},{"start":615.188,"end":635.76,"text":"在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以"},{"start":638.26,"end":656.272,"text":"時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的"},{"start":657.563,"end":685.897,"text":"再來就是我看學生的意見,因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人。我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS,這個單位有幾位是大學生,有台大的、政治系的,還有一些高中生,他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討,而且他們的檢討是有憑有據,他們是發問卷,問卷對象是一千多份。他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來,"},{"start":687.113,"end":713.278,"text":"但每一次加入官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案這是他們做的調查學習歷程檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個"},{"start":714.418,"end":715.56,"text":"這第一件事情。第二件事情"},{"start":732.575,"end":751.334,"text":"學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索。對吧?自我的探索。但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃拔啦。從小家長叫他學醫。所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。"},{"start":752.435,"end":763.845,"text":"有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮"},{"start":765.455,"end":791,"text":"所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦。網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案。所以這個問題很嚴重。然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案、學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家,不知道問誰啊,也產生很大的焦慮。這都是學生的意見。我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應,"},{"start":792.236,"end":815.807,"text":"學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛"},{"start":816.127,"end":833.564,"text":"他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個"},{"start":834.591,"end":862.867,"text":"委員會或者什麼會議,你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來,然後真的來做一個檢討,然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改,或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整,不知道院長跟部長能不能做到。謝謝委員,這個建議是必定會做的,從檢討過去到策略未來。現在都沒在做院長。"},{"start":865.17,"end":883.587,"text":"也知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測"},{"start":884.708,"end":888.112,"text":"我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講,你講的只是分發就是考照部分,我講的是學習的部分。"},{"start":904.432,"end":921.047,"text":"我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告對我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應"},{"start":922.429,"end":923.769,"text":"社會或學界的需求。"}]}}}}