{"id":154443,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd37e921c1abed6048266d74c0b9571b08dc75a2b8c9f1b7061da20d41cb0576d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:23:37 - 09:37:03","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:23:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:37:03+08:00","duration":806,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時24分）謝謝主席鍾召委，有請黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長早。"],["黃次長世杰：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長，我們今天併案審查民法第二百零五條條文修正草案，主要是為了避免融資業者巧立名目來收費，我們明文規定在約定利率範圍違約金與相關費用總和不得超過16%的部分。誠如剛剛次長所做的說明，許多業者可能會巧立許多名目加收相關費用，進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃次長過去擔任立委的時候，可能也接受過類似的陳情案件，我們瞭解實際的經驗上，確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候，可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸，而未詳細瞭解其收費的方式和價目，進而遭到業者以各種名目層層剝削。如果現行法規不夠周延的話，業者能夠無視於利率上限，則條文形同虛設。另就現行民法第二百零六條內容規定「債權人除前條限定之利息外，不得以折扣或其他方法，巧取利益。」與本次修法的目的大致相符。","我想請教，法務部認為修法與第二百零六條之間的適用會產生什麼樣的問題，是不是請次長大概回復一下？"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢。這個部分在我們的討論中有提到，因為民法的設計，除了設定利率上限之外，還有民法第二百零六條的強制規定，但是實務上我們遇到一個問題，這個強制規定必須由法院來認定。也就是如果當事人之間因為約定的利息，經過巧立名目收取很多額外的費用，甚至隱藏在他種的契約，譬如說買賣契約或是其他的形式之下，它要單獨看法條的文字來跟業者做協商的時候，會比較難立論啦！","實務上，我們有詢問司法院代表的意見，他們也說在實務上像相關這一類的案件，經常都是一造辯論判決，也就是債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張第二百零六條相關的適用。當然，如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向，我們增訂第二百零五條第二項的時候，仍然有學者提醒我們，不能因為我們訂了第二百零五條第二項說這些費用要計入利息的範圍之內，就排除了第兩百零六條的適用。所以我們會建議未來看條文的文字怎麼調整，或者是至少在立法理由裡面說明，增訂第二百零五條第二項這個方向並不排除法院可以同樣依照第二百零六條的規定來認定繫屬巧取利益，所以讓這個約定是無效的。不是只要在16%的範圍內就一定有效，這個部分跟委員報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，次長，我跟您報告一下，我們制定相關的規定，是希望能夠保護這些債務人。說實在，他可能是在財務緊急狀況之下，必須要去借錢，可是在相關的契約或是放款的業者所設下的一些內容，他沒有詳實的去閱讀的話，往往都是非常大的一個陷阱啦！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以我還是請法務部針對這個部分確實的去落實管理，讓訂定的辦法不會讓債務人陷於被剝削的狀況。我還是要請教，對於規避利率上限的亂象，我們應該要如何嚴加控管，有沒有什麼比較具體的方式？"],["黃次長世杰：是，因為法務部主管是關於民法的條文，關於這一些現在大家比較關注的融資業者，或者說相關的這些金融或準金融的行為，應該是由金管會或者其他相關主管機關針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為。大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次委員會，針對這個問題來探討，我相信相關主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強。我們今天來討論就是在民法的部分，是不是我們也可以把這種亂象做一些約制，剛才有跟委員報告，因為我們有觀察到實務上這些弱勢的債務人，他們通常都很難透過司法的途徑來主張自己的權利，不管是資源或是智識或是各種原因，如果我們在法律條文裡面，可以如這次委員們提案的方向，有一個比較明確的文字，或許他們在債務協商或者是溝通的時候，可以有一個比較明確的依據，某種程度上也可以解決一定程度的問題，當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正，就可以解決所有的亂象，恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的，對於這些業者的管制，還是一個很重要的配套措施。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長，這部分就拜託法務部積極去辦理，能夠做一個比較有效的管理。"],["黃次長世杰：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，針對矯正機關的部分，我特別感謝鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了宜蘭監獄的考察，在考察的過程當中，我要針對發現的一些問題來跟次長做一個探討，首先，在獄所方面，看起來目前戒護比的部分好像落差滿大的，宜蘭獄所現在應該是1比9的戒護比，甚至是更高，是不是因為獄方相關管理人力不足，還是收容的人數超收，到底是什麼原因，可不可以請次長您大概說明一下？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，以全國來看，我們矯正機關的戒護比確實較其他國家是高出不少，目前整體平均大約是1比9，誠如委員所說的，所以我們也不斷地向行政院請增相關的員額，目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣一個初步的目標來邁進，但是仍然有很多困難要克服，畢竟國家資源有限，也需要大院的支持，就是我們來向人事總處請增相關的員額。","至於超收的部分，跟委員報告，我們在五、六年前就已經發現這個問題，所以我們做了很多的努力，第一個，我們有一些新的監所已經在興建當中，譬如說我們的八德外役監的分監，目前我們希望它能夠在年底前完成，這樣的話，就可以紓解整個北部地區相關的超收問題。因為我們有人口的因素，所以收容人的部分，我們原則上還是會依照他的戶籍就近來做收容，既方便他的家屬探視，也方便他復歸社會的時候，可以重建他的社會關係，所以北部、臺中以北，事實上，中北部是我們超收比例比較嚴重的地方，但是我們都儘量用機動等等方式來管控，讓超收的比例不要達到嚴重超收，也就是超過25%，這個部分我們會努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們的管理人員不足，常常會導致這些人員過勞，所以我們還是希望該增補的員額，法務部還是應該要去想辦法。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，在相關設備上，走了一趟之後，我發現這個建築物是在81年建的；經過0403地震之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物屋頂也有水泥塊剝落，我也希望針對臺灣所有的獄所，針對它相關的設備去做盤點，如果需要提升、要改善的，我們應該要積極去辦理，避免讓受刑人、管理員，因為環境的因素導致他有安全上的問題。"],["黃次長世杰：好的，這個我們會來做全面的盤點。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外還有兩點建議一下，我們之前有通過一項針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費，我希望法務部也可以向上爭取，讓在獄所裡面夜間執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到相同的待遇。我估算了一下，一個月的費用大概是140萬，說多也不多，是不是請法務部針對這個部分也要去爭取？讓我們所有的同仁要有同等的待遇。","第二點，關於戒護的危險加給，目前矯正機關的戒護危險加給頂多是4,500塊，但其他相關的單位可能是7,500到9,700左右，針對金額補貼的部分，法務部是不是也可以做相同的爭取？就是上述這兩項。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，深夜危勞津貼的部分，事實上，過去也有委員來向行政院提出，不過人總目前還沒有答應，但是法務部已經責成矯正署積極準備相關的文件跟說明，尤其是我們的矯正同仁，其實他們也確實需要夜間出勤，譬如說戒護就醫等等臨時性的勤務，誠如委員所說的，也有辦法估算出所需的經費，表示確實有這樣的深夜勤務的存在，所以這個部分我們一定會全力協助矯正同仁向行政院這邊來做爭取。","至於危險加給的部分，據我們所瞭解，事實上在108年的時候曾經調整過一次，調整成現在的4,500元，它總共是分三級，這個部分我們部內也有在研議，希望能夠比照，因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總處說明我們要提高的依據，包括相關人員、其他有領到這個金額的人員的勤務性質有雷同的地方等等，我們現在已經準備好相關的資料，一樣的，我們也會向行政院來爭取、來提出，也希望委員給我們最大的支持，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長，針對深夜危勞津貼，還有戒護的危險加給，有必要的部分，法務部應該積極爭取，讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等的待遇，我還是要強調這一點，以上，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝黃次長。接下來請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154443","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154443","tool":"pyannote","id":"154443-pyannote"},"job_id":"SpE2h3jaIKnzjGXu","queued_at":"2024-07-03 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 802.606, \"end\": 803.848, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 803.848, \"end\": 804.148, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 804.148, \"end\": 804.248, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 804.248, \"end\": 804.268, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,854 --> 00:00:42,790\n好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個并案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在\n\n2\n00:00:44,601 --> 00:01:01,370\n約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛陳儒剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用\n\n3\n00:01:02,931 --> 00:01:24,242\n進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候,也可能接受過類似的陳情案件。我們了解實際的經驗上,確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。\n\n4\n00:01:24,822 --> 00:01:47,525\n尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率上限則條文形同虛設\n\n5\n00:01:49,151 --> 00:02:05,700\n就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符\n\n6\n00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:24,207\n那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下是謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到齁\n\n7\n00:02:24,667 --> 00:02:24,747\n主席\n\n8\n00:02:39,935 --> 00:03:02,491\n也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做\n\n9\n00:03:03,592 --> 00:03:03,632\n﹚陳俊宇﹚\n\n10\n00:03:20,626 --> 00:03:39,752\n也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們\n\n11\n00:03:40,512 --> 00:03:57,530\n就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者說至少在立法有裡面說明\n\n12\n00:03:59,252 --> 00:04:01,593\n市長我跟您報告一下就是我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的\n\n13\n00:04:28,308 --> 00:04:28,328\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n14\n00:04:46,084 --> 00:04:47,905\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具«民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。（議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n\n15\n00:05:04,377 --> 00:05:08,722\n對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?\n\n16\n00:05:22,126 --> 00:05:42,902\n法務部主管是關於民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為\n\n17\n00:05:44,143 --> 00:05:59,274\n大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會來針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們現在今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種\n\n18\n00:06:00,014 --> 00:06:00,314\n）委員鍾佳濱\n\n19\n00:06:24,085 --> 00:06:47,037\n明確的這個文字的話或許他們在債務協商或者是這個溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據那某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套的措施這樣\n\n20\n00:06:47,597 --> 00:07:12,787\n好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們保護這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個\n\n21\n00:07:14,507 --> 00:07:43,063\n發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的借戶比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的借戶比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足\n\n22\n00:07:44,267 --> 00:08:00,167\n還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個介護比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前\n\n23\n00:08:00,868 --> 00:08:25,018\n整體平均大約是1比9正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個初步的目標來邁進但是仍然有很多困難要克服畢竟國家資源有限我們也需要大院的支持我們來向人事總處來請證相關的緣額\n\n24\n00:08:27,439 --> 00:08:49,955\n操作部分跟委員報告我們在5、6年前就已經發現這個問題所以我們有做了很多的努力第一個是我們有一些新的監署已經正在興建當中譬如說我們的巴德外役監他的分監目前我們希望他能夠在年底就能夠來完成\n\n25\n00:08:50,815 --> 00:08:51,015\n﹚陳俊宇\n\n26\n00:09:13,301 --> 00:09:13,421\n拜訪委員\n\n27\n00:09:32,409 --> 00:09:32,429\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n28\n00:09:50,774 --> 00:10:08,407\n那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所\n\n29\n00:10:09,599 --> 00:10:10,139\n另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸\n\n30\n00:10:31,363 --> 00:10:53,773\n我們之前有通過一個就是針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個獄所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個\n\n31\n00:10:55,374 --> 00:10:55,394\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n32\n00:11:11,064 --> 00:11:30,188\n第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加級借戶的危險加級目前我們矯正機關的這個借戶危險加級頂多是4500塊那我們這個其他的這個相關的一些單位他可能是在7000多到9700左右7500到9700那針對這個部分的\n\n33\n00:11:34,613 --> 00:11:58,765\n這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜圍牢津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明\n\n34\n00:11:59,605 --> 00:11:59,765\n陳俊宇\n\n35\n00:12:21,596 --> 00:12:21,696\n危險佳績\n\n36\n00:12:41,776 --> 00:13:06,779\n希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持\n\n37\n00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:24,268\n好謝謝市長那還是針對這個我們生業危老津貼還有介護的危險加急那有必要的部分我請我們法務部應該是積極爭取讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等待遇還是強調這一點好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18854\t42790\t好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個并案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在\n44601\t61370\t約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛陳儒剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用\n62931\t84242\t進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候,也可能接受過類似的陳情案件。我們了解實際的經驗上,確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。\n84822\t107525\t尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率上限則條文形同虛設\n109151\t125700\t就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符\n126300\t144207\t那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下是謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到齁\n144667\t144747\t主席\n159935\t182491\t也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做\n183592\t183632\t﹚陳俊宇﹚\n200626\t219752\t也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們\n220512\t237530\t就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者說至少在立法有裡面說明\n239252\t241593\t市長我跟您報告一下就是我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的\n268308\t268328\t議員鍾佳濱\n286084\t287905\t議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具 «民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。（議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n304377\t308722\t對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?\n322126\t342902\t法務部主管是關於民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為\n344143\t359274\t大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會來針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們現在今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種\n360014\t360314\t）委員鍾佳濱\n384085\t407037\t明確的這個文字的話或許他們在債務協商或者是這個溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據那某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套的措施這樣\n407597\t432787\t好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們保護這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個\n434507\t463063\t發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的借戶比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的借戶比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足\n464267\t480167\t還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是 跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個介護比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前\n480868\t505018\t整體平均大約是1比9正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個初步的目標來邁進但是仍然有很多困難要克服畢竟國家資源有限我們也需要大院的支持我們來向人事總處來請證相關的緣額\n507439\t529955\t操作部分跟委員報告我們在5、6年前就已經發現這個問題所以我們有做了很多的努力第一個是我們有一些新的監署已經正在興建當中譬如說我們的巴德外役監他的分監目前我們希望他能夠在年底就能夠來完成\n530815\t531015\t﹚陳俊宇\n553301\t553421\t拜訪委員\n572409\t572429\t議員鍾佳濱\n590774\t608407\t那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所\n609599\t610139\t另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸\n631363\t653773\t我們之前有通過一個就是針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個獄所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個\n655374\t655394\t議員鍾佳濱\n671064\t690188\t第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加級借戶的危險加級目前我們矯正機關的這個借戶危險加級頂多是4500塊那我們這個其他的這個相關的一些單位他可能是在7000多到9700左右7500到9700那針對這個部分的\n694613\t718765\t這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜圍牢津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明\n719605\t719765\t陳俊宇\n741596\t741696\t危險佳績\n761776\t786779\t希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持\n787880\t804268\t好謝謝市長那還是針對這個我們生業危老津貼還有介護的危險加急那有必要的部分我請我們法務部應該是積極爭取讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等待遇還是強調這一點好以上謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個并案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在\n約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛陳儒剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用\n進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候,也可能接受過類似的陳情案件。我們了解實際的經驗上,確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。\n尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率上限則條文形同虛設\n就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符\n那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下是謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到齁\n主席\n也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做\n﹚陳俊宇﹚\n也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們\n就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者說至少在立法有裡面說明\n市長我跟您報告一下就是我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的\n議員鍾佳濱\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具 «民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。（議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?\n法務部主管是關於民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為\n大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會來針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們現在今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種\n）委員鍾佳濱\n明確的這個文字的話或許他們在債務協商或者是這個溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據那某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套的措施這樣\n好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們保護這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個\n發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的借戶比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的借戶比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足\n還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是 跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個介護比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前\n整體平均大約是1比9正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個初步的目標來邁進但是仍然有很多困難要克服畢竟國家資源有限我們也需要大院的支持我們來向人事總處來請證相關的緣額\n操作部分跟委員報告我們在5、6年前就已經發現這個問題所以我們有做了很多的努力第一個是我們有一些新的監署已經正在興建當中譬如說我們的巴德外役監他的分監目前我們希望他能夠在年底就能夠來完成\n﹚陳俊宇\n拜訪委員\n議員鍾佳濱\n那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所\n另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸\n我們之前有通過一個就是針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個獄所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個\n議員鍾佳濱\n第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加級借戶的危險加級目前我們矯正機關的這個借戶危險加級頂多是4500塊那我們這個其他的這個相關的一些單位他可能是在7000多到9700左右7500到9700那針對這個部分的\n這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜圍牢津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明\n陳俊宇\n危險佳績\n希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持\n好謝謝市長那還是針對這個我們生業危老津貼還有介護的危險加急那有必要的部分我請我們法務部應該是積極爭取讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等待遇還是強調這一點好以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.854 --> 00:42.790\n好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個并案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在\n\n00:44.601 --> 01:01.370\n約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛陳儒剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用\n\n01:02.931 --> 01:24.242\n進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候,也可能接受過類似的陳情案件。我們了解實際的經驗上,確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。\n\n01:24.822 --> 01:47.525\n尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率上限則條文形同虛設\n\n01:49.151 --> 02:05.700\n就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符\n\n02:06.300 --> 02:24.207\n那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下是謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到齁\n\n02:24.667 --> 02:24.747\n主席\n\n02:39.935 --> 03:02.491\n也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做\n\n03:03.592 --> 03:03.632\n﹚陳俊宇﹚\n\n03:20.626 --> 03:39.752\n也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們\n\n03:40.512 --> 03:57.530\n就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者說至少在立法有裡面說明\n\n03:59.252 --> 04:01.593\n市長我跟您報告一下就是我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的\n\n04:28.308 --> 04:28.328\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n04:46.084 --> 04:47.905\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具«民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。（議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n\n05:04.377 --> 05:08.722\n對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?\n\n05:22.126 --> 05:42.902\n法務部主管是關於民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為\n\n05:44.143 --> 05:59.274\n大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會來針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們現在今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種\n\n06:00.014 --> 06:00.314\n）委員鍾佳濱\n\n06:24.085 --> 06:47.037\n明確的這個文字的話或許他們在債務協商或者是這個溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據那某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套的措施這樣\n\n06:47.597 --> 07:12.787\n好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們保護這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個\n\n07:14.507 --> 07:43.063\n發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的借戶比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的借戶比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足\n\n07:44.267 --> 08:00.167\n還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個介護比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前\n\n08:00.868 --> 08:25.018\n整體平均大約是1比9正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個初步的目標來邁進但是仍然有很多困難要克服畢竟國家資源有限我們也需要大院的支持我們來向人事總處來請證相關的緣額\n\n08:27.439 --> 08:49.955\n操作部分跟委員報告我們在5、6年前就已經發現這個問題所以我們有做了很多的努力第一個是我們有一些新的監署已經正在興建當中譬如說我們的巴德外役監他的分監目前我們希望他能夠在年底就能夠來完成\n\n08:50.815 --> 08:51.015\n﹚陳俊宇\n\n09:13.301 --> 09:13.421\n拜訪委員\n\n09:32.409 --> 09:32.429\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n09:50.774 --> 10:08.407\n那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所\n\n10:09.599 --> 10:10.139\n另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸\n\n10:31.363 --> 10:53.773\n我們之前有通過一個就是針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個獄所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個\n\n10:55.374 --> 10:55.394\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n11:11.064 --> 11:30.188\n第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加級借戶的危險加級目前我們矯正機關的這個借戶危險加級頂多是4500塊那我們這個其他的這個相關的一些單位他可能是在7000多到9700左右7500到9700那針對這個部分的\n\n11:34.613 --> 11:58.765\n這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜圍牢津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明\n\n11:59.605 --> 11:59.765\n陳俊宇\n\n12:21.596 --> 12:21.696\n危險佳績\n\n12:41.776 --> 13:06.779\n希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持\n\n13:07.880 --> 13:24.268\n好謝謝市長那還是針對這個我們生業危老津貼還有介護的危險加急那有必要的部分我請我們法務部應該是積極爭取讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等待遇還是強調這一點好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.854,"end":42.79,"text":"好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個并案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在"},{"start":44.601,"end":61.37,"text":"約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛陳儒剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用"},{"start":62.931,"end":84.242,"text":"進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候,也可能接受過類似的陳情案件。我們了解實際的經驗上,確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。"},{"start":84.822,"end":107.525,"text":"尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率上限則條文形同虛設"},{"start":109.151,"end":125.7,"text":"就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符"},{"start":126.3,"end":144.207,"text":"那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下是謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到齁"},{"start":144.667,"end":144.747,"text":"主席"},{"start":159.935,"end":182.491,"text":"也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做"},{"start":183.592,"end":183.632,"text":"﹚陳俊宇﹚"},{"start":200.626,"end":219.752,"text":"也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們"},{"start":220.512,"end":237.53,"text":"就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者說至少在立法有裡面說明"},{"start":239.252,"end":241.593,"text":"市長我跟您報告一下就是我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的"},{"start":268.308,"end":268.328,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":286.084,"end":287.905,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具 «民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。（議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":304.377,"end":308.722,"text":"對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?"},{"start":322.126,"end":342.902,"text":"法務部主管是關於民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為"},{"start":344.143,"end":359.274,"text":"大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會來針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們現在今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種"},{"start":360.014,"end":360.314,"text":"）委員鍾佳濱"},{"start":384.085,"end":407.037,"text":"明確的這個文字的話或許他們在債務協商或者是這個溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據那某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套的措施這樣"},{"start":407.597,"end":432.787,"text":"好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們保護這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個"},{"start":434.507,"end":463.063,"text":"發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的借戶比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的借戶比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足"},{"start":464.267,"end":480.167,"text":"還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是 跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個介護比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前"},{"start":480.868,"end":505.018,"text":"整體平均大約是1比9正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個初步的目標來邁進但是仍然有很多困難要克服畢竟國家資源有限我們也需要大院的支持我們來向人事總處來請證相關的緣額"},{"start":507.439,"end":529.955,"text":"操作部分跟委員報告我們在5、6年前就已經發現這個問題所以我們有做了很多的努力第一個是我們有一些新的監署已經正在興建當中譬如說我們的巴德外役監他的分監目前我們希望他能夠在年底就能夠來完成"},{"start":530.815,"end":531.015,"text":"﹚陳俊宇"},{"start":553.301,"end":553.421,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":572.409,"end":572.429,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":590.774,"end":608.407,"text":"那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所"},{"start":609.599,"end":610.139,"text":"另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸"},{"start":631.363,"end":653.773,"text":"我們之前有通過一個就是針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個獄所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個"},{"start":655.374,"end":655.394,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":671.064,"end":690.188,"text":"第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加級借戶的危險加級目前我們矯正機關的這個借戶危險加級頂多是4500塊那我們這個其他的這個相關的一些單位他可能是在7000多到9700左右7500到9700那針對這個部分的"},{"start":694.613,"end":718.765,"text":"這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜圍牢津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明"},{"start":719.605,"end":719.765,"text":"陳俊宇"},{"start":741.596,"end":741.696,"text":"危險佳績"},{"start":761.776,"end":786.779,"text":"希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持"},{"start":787.88,"end":804.268,"text":"好謝謝市長那還是針對這個我們生業危老津貼還有介護的危險加急那有必要的部分我請我們法務部應該是積極爭取讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等待遇還是強調這一點好以上謝謝"}]}}}}