{"id":154457,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bde88f94aee0e2762127d0a78c1009ae5ed15f5ccb8d26769b649adc19fb3f7a7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:50:32 - 10:03:42","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:50:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:03:42+08:00","duration":790,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（9時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員你好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報，有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討。我以文資災害來起個頭，我想網友總是會這麼認為，臺灣的歷史建物之前很常會發生離奇的火災，部長有稍微瞭解一下這個部分嗎？"],["李部長遠：我知道，早期一直有這個問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，國內的古蹟、歷史建築物發生火災的主要原因分為四項，用火不慎、人為縱火、施工不當以及電氣因素。廣義來說，就是自然跟人為的因素，人為的因素部分，我們就會推測，是不是當我們的老舊建物準備被評定為古蹟的時候，就會受到文資法的保護，周邊的建築物一併會受到影響，連帶出現疑似人為縱火的案件出來，也就是自燃事件？我們都知道，108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後，起火的原因有兩說，一個是電器故障，一個是香菸引燃，當然，在這件事情發生以後，文化部也很重視，我們就推動了一個有形文化資產防災守護方案，目前還在辦理嗎？"],["李部長遠：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：具體的成效可不可以跟大家分享一下？"],["李部長遠：我是不是請局長仔細報告一下？"],["陳局長濟民：好，這個有形文化資產防災守護方案，我們是跟相關部會，像消防署、警政署，我們就這樣的方案定期做消防的演練還有聯繫會報，都會召開，對於所有各種可能的狀況，包括我們現在已經協調各警局，在各個文資點設置巡邏箱，還有我們也加強所有人跟管理人怎麼樣做維護管理，就是在聯繫會報裡面……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是守護這些文化資產啦！近幾年確實有相對地減少失火的頻率，我們有感受到，但是聖母院大火之後，很快的在7月，文資局就和國家地震工程研究中心、國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網，我看了這個網站的內容，似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的案例，這又是為什麼？"],["陳局長濟民：我想我們可能後續可以把它補充進去，因為我們另外還有掌握這些數據，像……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有掌握嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那為什麼沒有列入？沒有想到？"],["陳局長濟民：我們可以考慮把它納進去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我舉最近的一個例子，2023年屏東空訓中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火，木造的屋頂、木窗等，燒毀面積約100坪，但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料，然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到不拘縣市，得到的也都是淹水、建物結構傾斜、裂縫等，仍然沒有看到火災的部分，是防災中心勾稽不到文化部的資訊，還是文化部根本從頭到尾都沒有將資訊列管，以至於無法提供相關資料給防災中心？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，剛才那個防災中心的網站，我們主要是以天然災害為主，像地震、颱風等等，我想人為的部分，我們可以考慮再另外把它納進去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我個人認為人為的部分也應該要列入……"],["陳局長濟民：我們是另外再……"],["羅委員廷瑋：要讓大家能夠知道。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以認同嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：可以，我想也應該是把它整個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當時在公共政策網路參與平臺上民眾提出了建議，希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地，100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途，以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行炒地的事情發生。部長，您知道這件事情嗎？網路所發起的這個活動。"],["李部長遠：知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：文化部回應，希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案的推動，降低各項人為疏失的災害及因應未來日益劇烈的氣候變遷挑戰，守護國家無可替代的重要文化資產，用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應。如果自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心、國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話，文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去。部長，您覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：應該是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的守護方案，但只做了半套。部長能夠承諾本席會進行盤點，將相關的資料一併列入嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題，會儘快。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，接下來我想要再跟部長探討的是，接下來我們關心的是文化資產價值評估的問題，有三個層次，第一個層次是法律面，文資保護法第十五條，有關公有建築物的部分，我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享，就是公有建物、公有土地的建築物，在興建完50年後，如果有要處分，例如拆除，都應該要進行文化資產價值評估。但是去年7月文化部就遭到監察院糾正，全臺灣2萬棟50年以上的公有建築物只有353棟提送文化資產價值評估，這6年來拆掉的有兩成，都是沒有辦理文化資產價值評估，根本就是違法拆除，這個被監察院認定有重大疏失，也要求確實地檢討。部長，您覺得這個嚴不嚴重？你們是不是應該要做一個反省，甚至要趕快來亡羊補牢？"],["李部長遠：其實我知道這個法令，好像要主動去報，大家都沒有去報，因為50年以上的房子太多嘛。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["李部長遠：很多人都自動沒有報，自動不去報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是50年以上的建築物確實算是滿多的，很重要！"],["李部長遠：真的很多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。部長，監察院的糾正內容也提到，105年7月修正文資法，逾50年的公有建築物待普查數高達99%，所以我想文化資產，我們不是只是法律面訂定而已，實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距，這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下？部長，您覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：是，因為它那個執行面真的是很困難，因為50年以上的建築物在臺灣來講非常多，我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上相當不足，所以這個要檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：詢問文資法第十四條規定，主管機關應定期普查、程序審查、列冊追蹤，到底有沒有涵蓋到50年以上的公有建築物？卻兩次獲得不同的說法。111年12月16日回復法令上無規範，112年2月15日又回復包含在裡面，各縣市根本無法追蹤。部長，你可不可以給我一個確定的答案？你覺得呢？50年以上的公有建築物到底適不適用第十四條？要不要普查？定期檢查要多久一次？"],["陳局長濟民：第十四條跟第十五條其實兩個是不同性質的，那個解釋是不一樣的。我先補充一下，第十五條在監察院的糾正裡面，最主要現在是縣市政府各局處的橫向聯繫不夠。我們已經一個、一個通函各縣市，也請他們提出具體的勾稽，因為有的在文化局，有的在建設局，有的在……所以拆的時候他們之間沒有互相通報。依照文資法第十五條，這方面是一定要聯繫通報，是一定要做的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，我們希望要有具體的作為，我想文化部作為文化最高的主管機關，應該要想辦法去處理。"],["陳局長濟民：有，我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：第十四條呢？剛剛我所問的，可不可以給我一個確定的答案？50年以上的公有建築物到底適不適用第十四條？"],["陳局長濟民：不適宜，這兩個是不同性質的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們現在的普查跟定期檢查，你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：有，是說哪一個？"],["羅委員廷瑋：50年以上的建築物要普查、定期追蹤，你們有沒有去訂定，然後要求你們下面的各縣市主管機關去處理？"],["陳局長濟民：我們有訂一些行政指導的規範。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都有去跟他們做溝通？"],["陳局長濟民：對，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%。"],["陳局長濟民：因為像剛才部長講的，的確，地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通，這方面的確實質上是有一些困難，因為數量很多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望未來是不是有機會有一個招募人力的計畫，能夠來銜接這樣子的人力，讓我們這些50年以上的建築物趕緊來做普查，有沒有這個計畫可以來產生？"],["陳局長濟民：有，我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制，包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查，還有專案服務團隊，這一方面都是一些補充人力，還有專業技術的一種作法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：各縣市在文化部的督導下，有一個執行層面的問題，包括雲林縣沒有人力辦理統計，南投縣、嘉義縣表示，他們根本沒有相關的數據，也就是在拆除之前，他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年以上的建築物，所以……"],["陳局長濟民：是，也就是橫向聯繫的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題，我希望文化部能夠有所作為，能夠來協助處理。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想執行面有這樣子的一個狀況，文化部應該要痛定思痛，去想辦法協助處理。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然第三個，我們應該借鏡國外建築物遺產價值評估的一個系統，我希望文化部能夠做到，文資法的施行細則指出，處分前要通知主管機關進行文化價值評估，具體的做法就是邀請學者或審議會委員辦理勘查，做成一個結果紀錄，主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤、登錄審查或其他事宜之列管措施。","然而，目前對於「專家學者的定義、專業內容、職業倫理、職務執行細則」等，都沒有明確規範。譬如說，怎麼樣算是有價值？以目前的古蹟指定及廢止審查辦法為例，現在寫的只有比較廣泛的「具高度歷史、藝術或科學價值者」、「表現各時代營造技術流派特色者」、「具稀少性、不易再現者」這三條基準要符合其中之一。","舉例來說，彰化縣的「大新鳳梨商事會社」是典型的文資爭議案事件，部長，您知道這個事件嗎？當時文資委員做現場勘查的時候，認定這個「大新商事外觀形式簡潔、臨街立面無繁複裝飾，常見於彰化市區的主要道路，不具稀少性、特殊性」。但文資團體認為，大新鳳梨商事會社為彰化市僅存連棟式現代風格折衷式樣街屋，具有稀少性、珍貴性、藝術性的價值。同樣是稀少性，主管機關跟文資團體的解讀完全相反，因無法客觀而引發爭議。","這個部分我們是不是可以參考國外的建築價值評估系統？例如加拿大他們有一個建築史、歷史、環境、使用、相關真實性的價值等5項指標來作為分級評分，分為A、B、C，也就是所謂的75到100分、50到74分等分成4個組別，個別對應具有重大意義的建築物或者是應受保護的建築物來作為評分，以達到「客觀的主觀」方式來做一個評分。這個部分我們有沒有機會朝這樣子的方向來處理？"],["李部長遠：羅委員，你剛才講的這些東西，我想我們一定要痛定思痛地來檢討，因為剛才你講那幾棟建築物找來的專家委員，他們每個人都有不同的專業。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["李部長遠：所以他們評定方式是不一樣的，這一點我很謝謝你的建議，我們應該參考更科學的一些制度跟方法，讓那個評定比較有根據。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝部長正面的回應，我想就是我剛剛說的，借鏡國外建築物遺產價值評估系統，希望更有效地去做這樣子的評估，不管是文史團體或者是學者去做的一個評估，我們當然尊重，但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中，能夠更謹慎、小心地去做評估，不要讓我們有任何遺留的遺憾，因為文化資產守護不易，每一次的拆除都無法再挽回。我想這部分我們一起來努力，部長，剛剛你有具體的給我回復，我們也希望會後兩個月內、三個月內，能夠評估出價值的一個評估系統，讓我們能夠知道，這可以做得到嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該是可以啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，三個月，謝謝你！"],["李部長遠：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，部長請回座。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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\"那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 501.365, \"end\": 501.505, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 501.505, \"end\": 501.585, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 501.585, \"end\": 501.705, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 501.705, \"end\": 501.985, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 501.985, \"end\": 502.125, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 502.125, \"end\": 502.185, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 502.185, \"end\": 502.285, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 502.285, \"end\": 502.505, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 502.505, \"end\": 502.946, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 502.946, \"end\": 503.306, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 523.673, \"end\": 523.753, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 523.753, \"end\": 523.914, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 523.914, \"end\": 524.034, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 524.034, \"end\": 524.154, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 524.154, \"end\": 524.274, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 524.274, \"end\": 524.354, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 524.354, \"end\": 524.734, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 524.734, \"end\": 524.974, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 524.974, \"end\": 525.134, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 525.134, \"end\": 525.594, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 525.594, \"end\": 525.834, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 525.834, \"end\": 526.414, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 526.414, \"end\": 526.755, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 526.755, \"end\": 526.835, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 526.835, \"end\": 527.155, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 527.155, \"end\": 527.375, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 527.375, \"end\": 527.395, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 527.975, \"end\": 547.094, \"text\": \"我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 527.975, \"end\": 528.175, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 528.175, \"end\": 528.275, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 528.275, \"end\": 528.416, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 528.416, \"end\": 529.276, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 529.276, 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\"廷\", \"start\": 764.485, \"end\": 764.705, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"瑋\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 764.705, \"end\": 764.725, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,142 --> 00:00:09,964\n羅委員你好部長好今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討那文資災害來起個頭那我想台灣的歷史建物網友總是會這麼認為之前很常都會發生離奇的火災那部長有稍微了解一下這個部分嗎\n\n2\n00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:50,562\n國內古蹟、歷史建築物主要火災的原因分為四項用火不慎、人為縱火施工不當以及電氣因素廣義的來說就是自然跟人為的因素那人為的因素部分我們就會推測說是不是當我們老舊建築物\n\n3\n00:00:50,962 --> 00:00:54,246\n我們都知道108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後起火的原因有兩說一個是電器的故障\n\n4\n00:01:10,026 --> 00:01:10,226\n請局長仔細報告一下\n\n5\n00:01:30,022 --> 00:01:56,922\n有形化資產防災我們是跟相關部會像消防署還有警政署我們就這樣的方案我們定期做消防的演練還有聯繫的匯報大概都是會召開這樣子那對於所有各種可能的狀況包括我們現在已經協調各警局在各個文資點設置巡邏箱還有我們加強就是所有人跟管理人怎麼樣作為維護管理\n\n6\n00:01:57,442 --> 00:02:23,548\n就是守護這些文化資產那近幾年確實有相對的減少失火的一個頻率我們有感受到但是聖母願知大火之後很快的在7月文資局和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網於是我看了這個網站的內容似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的一個案例又是為什麼\n\n7\n00:02:24,923 --> 00:02:27,485\n有掌握嗎?那為什麼沒有列入?沒有想到?\n\n8\n00:02:38,032 --> 00:02:57,037\n我們可以來考慮把它納進去我舉最近的一個例子就是2023年屏東空訊中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火木造的屋頂、木窗等燒毀面積約100坪但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到\n\n9\n00:02:57,597 --> 00:02:57,617\n：羅廷瑋\n\n10\n00:03:15,331 --> 00:03:30,372\n委員剛才那個防災中心那個網站啊主要是以天然災害為主天然災害為主像地震啊颱風等等那我想如果人為的部分我可以考慮把它在另外再把它拉進去我個人認為人為的他也應該要列入讓大家能夠知道\n\n11\n00:03:31,963 --> 00:03:52,816\n可以認同嗎?我想當時公共政策網路參與平台民眾提出了建議希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行草地的事情部長您知道這件事情嗎?\n\n12\n00:03:55,542 --> 00:04:15,039\n網路所發起的這個活動知道文化部回應希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案推動降低各為人為疏失還有災害的因應未來日益劇烈的一個氣候變遷的挑戰守護國家無可替代的一個重要文化資產用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應\n\n13\n00:04:15,740 --> 00:04:40,432\n如果說自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話那文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去部長您覺得呢應該是那而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的一個防護手一個方案但只做了半套部長能夠承諾本席盤點將相關的一個資料一併列入嗎\n\n14\n00:04:41,415 --> 00:05:07,307\n是沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值\n\n15\n00:05:09,008 --> 00:05:34,456\n但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個\n\n16\n00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:39,781\n50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%\n\n17\n00:06:07,137 --> 00:06:30,725\n所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為要量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討\n\n18\n00:06:31,545 --> 00:06:56,782\n我想文資法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n\n19\n00:06:59,782 --> 00:07:14,404\n要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?那個這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠\n\n20\n00:07:15,405 --> 00:07:42,703\n我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市也提出了請他們提出具體的這種勾擊啊因為有的在文化局有的在建設局有的在所以猜的時候他們之間沒有互相通報依照文物資法第15條是一定要這方面應該要聯繫通報一定要做的我們希望要具體的作為我想作為主管機關我們最高的文化部應該要去想辦法去處理那第14條呢剛剛我所問到的可不可以給我一個確定的答案50年公有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n\n21\n00:07:43,925 --> 00:07:45,648\n我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?\n\n22\n00:07:58,438 --> 00:08:21,005\n50年建築物要普查定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難\n\n23\n00:08:21,365 --> 00:08:47,395\n那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法\n\n24\n00:08:47,975 --> 00:09:07,094\n我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理\n\n25\n00:09:11,578 --> 00:09:12,658\n主席主席主席主席主席\n\n26\n00:09:37,884 --> 00:10:03,545\n那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值因目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛\n\n27\n00:10:05,371 --> 00:10:29,467\n範圍具高度的歷史藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說彰化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎\n\n28\n00:10:32,588 --> 00:10:56,350\n我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市\n\n29\n00:10:56,770 --> 00:10:59,391\n建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個\n\n30\n00:11:24,383 --> 00:11:53,183\n建築史歷史環境使用相關的價值真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為ABC也就是所謂的75到100分50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別各別應對具有重大的意義建築物或者是應受保存的建築物來作為評分以達到客觀主觀的一個\n\n31\n00:11:53,803 --> 00:11:53,823\n蘇貞昌議員\n\n32\n00:12:23,963 --> 00:12:44,005\n好,謝謝部長正面的回應,我想就是我剛剛說的喔,接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統,希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估,我們當然尊重不管是文史團體,或者是學者去做的一個評估,但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中,能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估,不要讓我們任何遺留\n\n33\n00:12:44,485 --> 00:12:44,725\n羅廷瑋委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7142\t9964\t羅委員你好部長好今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討那文資災害來起個頭那我想台灣的歷史建物網友總是會這麼認為之前很常都會發生離奇的火災那部長有稍微了解一下這個部分嗎\n37156\t50562\t國內古蹟、歷史建築物主要火災的原因分為四項用火不慎、人為縱火施工不當以及電氣因素廣義的來說就是自然跟人為的因素那人為的因素部分我們就會推測說是不是當我們老舊建築物\n50962\t54246\t我們都知道108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後起火的原因有兩說一個是電器的故障\n70026\t70226\t請局長仔細報告一下\n90022\t116922\t有形化資產防災我們是跟相關部會像消防署還有警政署我們就這樣的方案我們定期做消防的演練還有聯繫的匯報大概都是會召開這樣子那對於所有各種可能的狀況包括我們現在已經協調各警局在各個文資點設置巡邏箱還有我們加強就是所有人跟管理人怎麼樣作為維護管理\n117442\t143548\t就是守護這些文化資產那近幾年確實有相對的減少失火的一個頻率我們有感受到但是聖母願知大火之後很快的在7月文資局和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網於是我看了這個網站的內容似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的一個案例又是為什麼\n144923\t147485\t有掌握嗎?那為什麼沒有列入?沒有想到?\n158032\t177037\t我們可以來考慮把它納進去我舉最近的一個例子就是2023年屏東空訊中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火木造的屋頂、木窗等燒毀面積約100坪但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到\n177597\t177617\t：羅廷瑋\n195331\t210372\t委員剛才那個防災中心那個網站啊主要是以天然災害為主天然災害為主像地震啊颱風等等那我想如果人為的部分我可以考慮把它在另外再把它拉進去我個人認為人為的他也應該要列入讓大家能夠知道\n211963\t232816\t可以認同嗎?我想當時公共政策網路參與平台民眾提出了建議希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行草地的事情部長您知道這件事情嗎?\n235542\t255039\t網路所發起的這個活動知道文化部回應希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案推動降低各為人為疏失還有災害的因應未來日益劇烈的一個氣候變遷的挑戰守護國家無可替代的一個重要文化資產用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應\n255740\t280432\t如果說自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話那文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去部長您覺得呢應該是那而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的一個防護手一個方案但只做了半套部長能夠承諾本席盤點將相關的一個資料一併列入嗎\n281415\t307307\t是 沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值\n309008\t334456\t但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個\n338820\t339781\t50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%\n367137\t390725\t所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是 因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為要量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討\n391545\t416782\t我想文資法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n419782\t434404\t要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?那個這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠\n435405\t462703\t我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市也提出了請他們提出具體的這種勾擊啊因為有的在文化局有的在建設局有的在所以猜的時候他們之間沒有互相通報依照文物資法第15條是一定要這方面應該要聯繫通報一定要做的我們希望要具體的作為我想作為主管機關我們最高的文化部應該要去想辦法去處理那第14條呢剛剛我所問到的可不可以給我一個確定的答案50年公有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n463925\t465648\t我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?\n478438\t501005\t50年建築物要普查 定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難\n501365\t527395\t那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法\n527975\t547094\t我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理\n551578\t552658\t主席主席主席主席主席\n577884\t603545\t那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值因目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛\n605371\t629467\t範圍具高度的歷史藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說彰化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎\n632588\t656350\t我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市\n656770\t659391\t建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個\n684383\t713183\t建築史歷史環境使用相關的價值真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為ABC也就是所謂的75到100分50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別各別應對具有重大的意義建築物或者是應受保存的建築物來作為評分以達到客觀主觀的一個\n713803\t713823\t蘇貞昌議員\n743963\t764005\t好,謝謝部長正面的回應,我想就是我剛剛說的喔,接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統,希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估,我們當然尊重不管是文史團體,或者是學者去做的一個評估,但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中,能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估,不要讓我們任何遺留\n764485\t764725\t羅廷瑋委員\n","txt":"羅委員你好部長好今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討那文資災害來起個頭那我想台灣的歷史建物網友總是會這麼認為之前很常都會發生離奇的火災那部長有稍微了解一下這個部分嗎\n國內古蹟、歷史建築物主要火災的原因分為四項用火不慎、人為縱火施工不當以及電氣因素廣義的來說就是自然跟人為的因素那人為的因素部分我們就會推測說是不是當我們老舊建築物\n我們都知道108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後起火的原因有兩說一個是電器的故障\n請局長仔細報告一下\n有形化資產防災我們是跟相關部會像消防署還有警政署我們就這樣的方案我們定期做消防的演練還有聯繫的匯報大概都是會召開這樣子那對於所有各種可能的狀況包括我們現在已經協調各警局在各個文資點設置巡邏箱還有我們加強就是所有人跟管理人怎麼樣作為維護管理\n就是守護這些文化資產那近幾年確實有相對的減少失火的一個頻率我們有感受到但是聖母願知大火之後很快的在7月文資局和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網於是我看了這個網站的內容似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的一個案例又是為什麼\n有掌握嗎?那為什麼沒有列入?沒有想到?\n我們可以來考慮把它納進去我舉最近的一個例子就是2023年屏東空訊中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火木造的屋頂、木窗等燒毀面積約100坪但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到\n：羅廷瑋\n委員剛才那個防災中心那個網站啊主要是以天然災害為主天然災害為主像地震啊颱風等等那我想如果人為的部分我可以考慮把它在另外再把它拉進去我個人認為人為的他也應該要列入讓大家能夠知道\n可以認同嗎?我想當時公共政策網路參與平台民眾提出了建議希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行草地的事情部長您知道這件事情嗎?\n網路所發起的這個活動知道文化部回應希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案推動降低各為人為疏失還有災害的因應未來日益劇烈的一個氣候變遷的挑戰守護國家無可替代的一個重要文化資產用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應\n如果說自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話那文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去部長您覺得呢應該是那而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的一個防護手一個方案但只做了半套部長能夠承諾本席盤點將相關的一個資料一併列入嗎\n是 沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值\n但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個\n50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%\n所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是 因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為要量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討\n我想文資法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?那個這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠\n我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市也提出了請他們提出具體的這種勾擊啊因為有的在文化局有的在建設局有的在所以猜的時候他們之間沒有互相通報依照文物資法第15條是一定要這方面應該要聯繫通報一定要做的我們希望要具體的作為我想作為主管機關我們最高的文化部應該要去想辦法去處理那第14條呢剛剛我所問到的可不可以給我一個確定的答案50年公有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?\n50年建築物要普查 定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難\n那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法\n我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理\n主席主席主席主席主席\n那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值因目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛\n範圍具高度的歷史藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說彰化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎\n我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市\n建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個\n建築史歷史環境使用相關的價值真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為ABC也就是所謂的75到100分50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別各別應對具有重大的意義建築物或者是應受保存的建築物來作為評分以達到客觀主觀的一個\n蘇貞昌議員\n好,謝謝部長正面的回應,我想就是我剛剛說的喔,接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統,希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估,我們當然尊重不管是文史團體,或者是學者去做的一個評估,但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中,能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估,不要讓我們任何遺留\n羅廷瑋委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.142 --> 00:09.964\n羅委員你好部長好今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討那文資災害來起個頭那我想台灣的歷史建物網友總是會這麼認為之前很常都會發生離奇的火災那部長有稍微了解一下這個部分嗎\n\n00:37.156 --> 00:50.562\n國內古蹟、歷史建築物主要火災的原因分為四項用火不慎、人為縱火施工不當以及電氣因素廣義的來說就是自然跟人為的因素那人為的因素部分我們就會推測說是不是當我們老舊建築物\n\n00:50.962 --> 00:54.246\n我們都知道108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後起火的原因有兩說一個是電器的故障\n\n01:10.026 --> 01:10.226\n請局長仔細報告一下\n\n01:30.022 --> 01:56.922\n有形化資產防災我們是跟相關部會像消防署還有警政署我們就這樣的方案我們定期做消防的演練還有聯繫的匯報大概都是會召開這樣子那對於所有各種可能的狀況包括我們現在已經協調各警局在各個文資點設置巡邏箱還有我們加強就是所有人跟管理人怎麼樣作為維護管理\n\n01:57.442 --> 02:23.548\n就是守護這些文化資產那近幾年確實有相對的減少失火的一個頻率我們有感受到但是聖母願知大火之後很快的在7月文資局和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網於是我看了這個網站的內容似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的一個案例又是為什麼\n\n02:24.923 --> 02:27.485\n有掌握嗎?那為什麼沒有列入?沒有想到?\n\n02:38.032 --> 02:57.037\n我們可以來考慮把它納進去我舉最近的一個例子就是2023年屏東空訊中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火木造的屋頂、木窗等燒毀面積約100坪但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到\n\n02:57.597 --> 02:57.617\n：羅廷瑋\n\n03:15.331 --> 03:30.372\n委員剛才那個防災中心那個網站啊主要是以天然災害為主天然災害為主像地震啊颱風等等那我想如果人為的部分我可以考慮把它在另外再把它拉進去我個人認為人為的他也應該要列入讓大家能夠知道\n\n03:31.963 --> 03:52.816\n可以認同嗎?我想當時公共政策網路參與平台民眾提出了建議希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行草地的事情部長您知道這件事情嗎?\n\n03:55.542 --> 04:15.039\n網路所發起的這個活動知道文化部回應希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案推動降低各為人為疏失還有災害的因應未來日益劇烈的一個氣候變遷的挑戰守護國家無可替代的一個重要文化資產用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應\n\n04:15.740 --> 04:40.432\n如果說自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話那文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去部長您覺得呢應該是那而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的一個防護手一個方案但只做了半套部長能夠承諾本席盤點將相關的一個資料一併列入嗎\n\n04:41.415 --> 05:07.307\n是沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值\n\n05:09.008 --> 05:34.456\n但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個\n\n05:38.820 --> 05:39.781\n50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%\n\n06:07.137 --> 06:30.725\n所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為要量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討\n\n06:31.545 --> 06:56.782\n我想文資法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n\n06:59.782 --> 07:14.404\n要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?那個這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠\n\n07:15.405 --> 07:42.703\n我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市也提出了請他們提出具體的這種勾擊啊因為有的在文化局有的在建設局有的在所以猜的時候他們之間沒有互相通報依照文物資法第15條是一定要這方面應該要聯繫通報一定要做的我們希望要具體的作為我想作為主管機關我們最高的文化部應該要去想辦法去處理那第14條呢剛剛我所問到的可不可以給我一個確定的答案50年公有建築物到底是不是用第14條\n\n07:43.925 --> 07:45.648\n我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?\n\n07:58.438 --> 08:21.005\n50年建築物要普查定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難\n\n08:21.365 --> 08:47.395\n那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法\n\n08:47.975 --> 09:07.094\n我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理\n\n09:11.578 --> 09:12.658\n主席主席主席主席主席\n\n09:37.884 --> 10:03.545\n那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值因目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛\n\n10:05.371 --> 10:29.467\n範圍具高度的歷史藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說彰化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎\n\n10:32.588 --> 10:56.350\n我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市\n\n10:56.770 --> 10:59.391\n建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個\n\n11:24.383 --> 11:53.183\n建築史歷史環境使用相關的價值真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為ABC也就是所謂的75到100分50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別各別應對具有重大的意義建築物或者是應受保存的建築物來作為評分以達到客觀主觀的一個\n\n11:53.803 --> 11:53.823\n蘇貞昌議員\n\n12:23.963 --> 12:44.005\n好,謝謝部長正面的回應,我想就是我剛剛說的喔,接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統,希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估,我們當然尊重不管是文史團體,或者是學者去做的一個評估,但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中,能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估,不要讓我們任何遺留\n\n12:44.485 --> 12:44.725\n羅廷瑋委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.142,"end":9.964,"text":"羅委員你好部長好今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討那文資災害來起個頭那我想台灣的歷史建物網友總是會這麼認為之前很常都會發生離奇的火災那部長有稍微了解一下這個部分嗎"},{"start":37.156,"end":50.562,"text":"國內古蹟、歷史建築物主要火災的原因分為四項用火不慎、人為縱火施工不當以及電氣因素廣義的來說就是自然跟人為的因素那人為的因素部分我們就會推測說是不是當我們老舊建築物"},{"start":50.962,"end":54.246,"text":"我們都知道108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後起火的原因有兩說一個是電器的故障"},{"start":70.026,"end":70.226,"text":"請局長仔細報告一下"},{"start":90.022,"end":116.922,"text":"有形化資產防災我們是跟相關部會像消防署還有警政署我們就這樣的方案我們定期做消防的演練還有聯繫的匯報大概都是會召開這樣子那對於所有各種可能的狀況包括我們現在已經協調各警局在各個文資點設置巡邏箱還有我們加強就是所有人跟管理人怎麼樣作為維護管理"},{"start":117.442,"end":143.548,"text":"就是守護這些文化資產那近幾年確實有相對的減少失火的一個頻率我們有感受到但是聖母願知大火之後很快的在7月文資局和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網於是我看了這個網站的內容似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的一個案例又是為什麼"},{"start":144.923,"end":147.485,"text":"有掌握嗎?那為什麼沒有列入?沒有想到?"},{"start":158.032,"end":177.037,"text":"我們可以來考慮把它納進去我舉最近的一個例子就是2023年屏東空訊中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火木造的屋頂、木窗等燒毀面積約100坪但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到"},{"start":177.597,"end":177.617,"text":"：羅廷瑋"},{"start":195.331,"end":210.372,"text":"委員剛才那個防災中心那個網站啊主要是以天然災害為主天然災害為主像地震啊颱風等等那我想如果人為的部分我可以考慮把它在另外再把它拉進去我個人認為人為的他也應該要列入讓大家能夠知道"},{"start":211.963,"end":232.816,"text":"可以認同嗎?我想當時公共政策網路參與平台民眾提出了建議希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行草地的事情部長您知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":235.542,"end":255.039,"text":"網路所發起的這個活動知道文化部回應希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案推動降低各為人為疏失還有災害的因應未來日益劇烈的一個氣候變遷的挑戰守護國家無可替代的一個重要文化資產用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應"},{"start":255.74,"end":280.432,"text":"如果說自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話那文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去部長您覺得呢應該是那而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的一個防護手一個方案但只做了半套部長能夠承諾本席盤點將相關的一個資料一併列入嗎"},{"start":281.415,"end":307.307,"text":"是 沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值"},{"start":309.008,"end":334.456,"text":"但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個"},{"start":338.82,"end":339.781,"text":"50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%"},{"start":367.137,"end":390.725,"text":"所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是 因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為要量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討"},{"start":391.545,"end":416.782,"text":"我想文資法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條"},{"start":419.782,"end":434.404,"text":"要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?那個這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠"},{"start":435.405,"end":462.703,"text":"我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市也提出了請他們提出具體的這種勾擊啊因為有的在文化局有的在建設局有的在所以猜的時候他們之間沒有互相通報依照文物資法第15條是一定要這方面應該要聯繫通報一定要做的我們希望要具體的作為我想作為主管機關我們最高的文化部應該要去想辦法去處理那第14條呢剛剛我所問到的可不可以給我一個確定的答案50年公有建築物到底是不是用第14條"},{"start":463.925,"end":465.648,"text":"我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?"},{"start":478.438,"end":501.005,"text":"50年建築物要普查 定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難"},{"start":501.365,"end":527.395,"text":"那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法"},{"start":527.975,"end":547.094,"text":"我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理"},{"start":551.578,"end":552.658,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":577.884,"end":603.545,"text":"那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值因目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛"},{"start":605.371,"end":629.467,"text":"範圍具高度的歷史藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說彰化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎"},{"start":632.588,"end":656.35,"text":"我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市"},{"start":656.77,"end":659.391,"text":"建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個"},{"start":684.383,"end":713.183,"text":"建築史歷史環境使用相關的價值真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為ABC也就是所謂的75到100分50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別各別應對具有重大的意義建築物或者是應受保存的建築物來作為評分以達到客觀主觀的一個"},{"start":713.803,"end":713.823,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":743.963,"end":764.005,"text":"好,謝謝部長正面的回應,我想就是我剛剛說的喔,接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統,希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估,我們當然尊重不管是文史團體,或者是學者去做的一個評估,但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中,能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估,不要讓我們任何遺留"},{"start":764.485,"end":764.725,"text":"羅廷瑋委員"}]}}}}