{"id":154459,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd19b4376fb5cdbd8fcb3f5941fe168625d15f5ccb8d26769b6348e1de93919e675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:58:19 - 10:11:08","影片長度":"00:12:49","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:58:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:11:08+08:00","duration":769,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時58分）主席，有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["郭委員國文：還有副總裁。"],["主席：嚴副總裁嗎？慢慢來，沒關係，請嚴副總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。主委，因為大家討論蠻多的，假設今天這個條文通過的話，預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到臺灣，那臺灣的資金會去哪裡，大家非常清楚，不是去房市、就去股市，依照目前資金過剩的情況下，我對這個條文，老實講，羅召委，我真的沒有辦法贊成，因為我其實對這個資金氾濫的問題憂心忡忡！","就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位，我發現央行對於整個不動產、土建融的指標是不同的，你看看央行，不動產放款占全部放款金額的比重是13.75；但是對照金管會，扣除掉土銀之後，只有國銀部分的不動產根據第七十二條之二，央行的金額居然低過於金管會。你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差？我記得央行的報告有提過，特別是三高的部分就提到這兩項。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：主要是金融債券的……就是第七十二條之二把那一塊放進去。"],["郭委員國文：把金融債券的部分拿掉了？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["郭委員國文：那金額大概多少呢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：金融債券應該是有……直接在不動產那邊的我沒有資料，但金融債券大概是一兆多左右。"],["郭委員國文：主要還是在於所謂金額的部分，我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛，麻煩總裁會後再給我一下，因為終究要一個統一的指標來看待會比較清楚，比例上也不同、金額上也不同，本席沒有辦法理解這個部分。","如果是這樣子的話，拉回來說，我就教於彭主委，彭主委，我們在2000年的時候就銀行法第七十二條之二這個所謂的天條，可是天條當中居然還有後門條款，我所說的後門條款就是第七十二條的第二項，也就是說，主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在但書放款還有一個最高額度，我就教於彭主委，這個最高額度到底是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在單單看第七十二條之二當然是30%，那個數字剛剛委員也有提到，現在是在26跟27之間波動，都沒有逾限，現在如果加上那個部分的詳細數字，我可以請莊局長來……"],["郭委員國文：銀行局。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：來！莊局長請。"],["主席：銀行局莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，如果排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話，其實還是沒有超過30。"],["郭委員國文：那總數多少？"],["莊局長琇媛：大概差不多29左右。"],["郭委員國文：29左右？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：29左右就接近了？"],["莊局長琇媛：對，接近了，不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管。"],["郭委員國文：要嚴格的控管，所以說已經接近30%，看起來26、27，但是其實接近29，詳細的數字再給我一下。","但是第七十二條之二的這五款當中，你還有一個解壓縮條款，為什麼說是解壓縮條款呢？2018年金管會又出一個函，這個函號很長我就不說了，在這個擴大解釋的部分當中，包括醫院、學校、政府，這還可以理解；到後面，主委，我跟你提醒一下，連廠房的貸款金額也排除，還有都更的條款也排除，甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除！我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啦？主委！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的……"],["郭委員國文：有要檢討？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，有關它的範圍跟定義，這部分我們會請銀行局再來檢視。"],["郭委員國文：對，你把天條開一個大後門，那後門越開越大，怪不得這個土建融的資本會不斷的集中嘛，結果後來發現原來始作俑者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛！主委，你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們會注意喔，剛剛局長有提到關於都更部分，局長要不要簡單補充一下？"],["郭委員國文：來。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為107年的這個裡面，有一些像都更危老這個部分的話，這本來在都更或危老的法律規定裡面就已經排除了，我們只是把它納到107年的這個函。"],["郭委員國文：當初你們就應該要有這個警覺性嘛，你如果任何相關土建融的規定、任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話，土建融金額就不斷的上升，不是嗎？那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡？30%的上限又在哪裡？這天花板會自動的調升，浮動式的耶，不是嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我想說……"],["郭委員國文：所有央行的報告當中最關鍵的因素，之所以今天房地產會居高不下，就是資本過度集中嘛，做了那麼多信用管制為的也是不希望資本那麼過度集中嘛，不是嗎？結果我們自己在放水、我們自己在開後門！主委，麻煩一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會來好好……"],["郭委員國文：你再檢討嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們審視一下。"],["郭委員國文：那大概什麼時候檢討出來？一個月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可以一個月後把那個報告再跟委員說明。"],["郭委員國文：你們要包括如何檢討、如何限縮，想盡辦法把後門關起來，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：不要讓資本一直集中上去嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["郭委員國文：接下來我想問一下主委的部分，主委，你也知道本席很關心台中商銀，有關台中商銀本席去跟你瞭解一下，你們總共前前後後金檢了5次，在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際費的申報有所缺失，你們也有做行政處分，但是真正送到地檢署是在案發4年之後，這一點我想請主委可能要再說明清楚，因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢查局一個稽核人員跟王貴鋒的秘書有往來，這個是檢查局內部的內稽、內控出問題，可是這家公司的內稽、內控出問題，我們要怎麼處理？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我待會請檢查局跟銀行局來補充，不過就金融監理而言，我們是根據銀行法裡面的規定，看他有沒有違反我們的內規，當然我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候，因為我們有駐會檢察官，我們就會有一個SOP，會跟他討論這個案子。"],["郭委員國文：對，本席就是在討論你的SOP，你的SOP應該是出了問題，你回去好好研究這個案子，好好調整一下啦！不要過度寬鬆啦！","第二個，你知道嗎？在你們檢查局當中，你們有去查過嗎？台中商銀為什麼蓋企業總部？資本額300億的銀行結果花了100億來蓋這個大樓，你不覺得不合比例嗎？而且還挖了10層樓，地下室還挖了10層樓，原因是聽說臺中的砂石特別好，這一個牽扯到土地出售方是誰？我跟你說，就我理解是興富發，中間牽扯到仲介的這一個交易人是誰，你要去查清楚，這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署，你也應該查清楚！背後的利益結構，你沒有把它披露出來，到現在為止還疑雲重重，不是把焦點放在那一個可憐的公務人員，因為交情或錯交朋友，然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了，主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，不過我想本會人員涉案部分應該跟這個會從不同的角度考量，自己內部控制有這個問題，我們也深表遺憾，我們也在內部做過很多檢討，然後也做過很多的改善措施，我也責成檢查局一定務必要落實……"],["郭委員國文：講白一點，這個案子你要去重新看一下有無缺失、有無該處分沒有處分、有無該移送沒有移送，你要重新去思考這件事情，在你上任之後來建立一個範例，好不好？金融機關的內稽、內控出了這麼大的問題，對不對？好，牽扯到內稽、內控的問題，你又看到牽扯到獨董的角色，一個立法委員兼任獨董，當他擔任獨董，這個公司治理出問題，立法委員出來跟你講話的時候，這個是獨董還是門神？我是說假設有這種情況的話，這是第一個狀況。","第二個，你去看過往在幾年前樂陞案就有類似這種獨董掏空400億，但3個獨董都沒有事情，你難道都是簽到而已嗎？等下課嗎？過了這麼多年，獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責，有的獨董薪資一年隨便就上千億，大股東提名拿了1,000億，他還有獨立性嗎？少則平均行情大概100萬，難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎？我不點名我前同事，除了前同事李姓立委之外，他的獨董還有誰？一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的姪子叫徐立曄，專門找這種人，這種人的專業能力在哪裡？是關係取向還是專業取向？你們要不要搞清楚？要不要課予獨董應該有的責任，這是第一個你要去思考的問題。","第二個，有沒有不適任獨董的黑名單？就像我們政府採購法當中，審查委員的名冊當中有一些不好的，就把他剔除掉，有沒有可能？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：獨立董事是定在證交法裡面的規定，當然制度我們都會與時俱進來檢討，我會請證期局來檢討這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，獨董基本上是監察人角色的轉換，他的權力不是一般的董事喔！薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的成員。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，現在是。"],["郭委員國文：監察人的部分沒有好好監察，以至於內稽、內控出問題，他是在會計師前面的內部把關者，卻陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機出國旅遊，這還像獨董嗎？虧損掏空了11億，他卻沒有事情，然後呢？難道不能類似美國的部分，對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎？現在我們要討論會計事務所、要跟他究責，這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：獨立董事是也是公司法董事的一部分，關於這個部分，特別是獨立董事是由金管會主政，但是一般董事該負的責任，他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責。"],["郭委員國文：他跟一般董事的權力又更不一樣，他連一張股票都沒有，就可以行使這麼大的權力，他代表的是一個公信力，他代表是一種公權力的延伸，去做內部內稽、內控的把關者，他居然變成一個放水者、他居然變成一個護航者，這真的是一個很大的問題！主委，我希望看到你的魄力跟改革，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來質詢請李坤城李委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員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00:00:21,942\n主席有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁請彭主委還有副總裁嚴副總裁嗎?慢慢來沒關係,請嚴副總裁\n\n2\n00:00:28,569 --> 00:00:43,962\n主委我先說因為大家討論蠻多的如果假設今天的這個條文通過的話預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到台灣那台灣的資金會去哪裡大家非常清楚不是去房市就去股市\n\n3\n00:00:44,662 --> 00:01:04,120\n那依照目前資金過剩的情況底下我對這個條文老實講羅財委我真的沒有辦法贊成因為我其實對這個資金泛濫的問題其實憂心忡忡就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位就我發現呢央行對整個這個不動產土建融的這個指標是不同的\n\n4\n00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:27,660\n你看看央行不動產的販款佔全部的販款比重的金額是13.75但是對照於金管會它扣除掉土銀之後只有國銀的部分的這個不動產呢這根據72條之二的部分呢央行的金額居然低過金管會你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差我記得央行的報告有提過特別是山高的部分就有提到這兩項\n\n5\n00:01:29,673 --> 00:01:56,481\n主要是那個金融債券的那個就是這邊的72條這把那一塊放進去把他拿掉了金融債券的部分那金額大概多少呢金融債券應該是有但是直接在不動產那邊我沒有資料但金融債券大概是一兆多左右因為主要還是在於這個所謂的金額的部分嘛我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛麻煩那個總裁你會後再給我一下因為中秀是要有一個統一的指標我們來看待\n\n6\n00:01:57,281 --> 00:01:57,481\n李卓人議員\n\n7\n00:02:16,852 --> 00:02:17,452\n主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在單書販款還有一個最高額度。\n\n8\n00:02:36,762 --> 00:02:37,043\n中央銀行委員\n\n9\n00:02:52,997 --> 00:03:12,260\n報言如果就是排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話其實還是沒有超過30那總數多少大概差不多2929左右29左右29左右就接近了接近了不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管\n\n10\n00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:25,014\n要員工的控管所以說已經接近30%看起來26、27但是其實接近29有詳細的數字再給我一下但是你是72條之二的部分這五款當中你還有一個啊個解壓縮條款欸\n\n11\n00:03:27,797 --> 00:03:43,994\n什麼是解壓縮小款呢?也就是說你在2018年的時候金管會又出一個函這個函號漏漏等我都不跟你說了這個擴大解釋的部分當中呢這包括醫院、學校、政府這還可以理解到後面\n\n12\n00:03:44,915 --> 00:04:04,823\n那個主委我跟您提醒一下連廠房的這個條款這個貸款的金額也排除還有都更的部分的條款也排除甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啊\n\n13\n00:04:06,892 --> 00:04:33,057\n主委,我們其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的它的範圍跟定義這部分我們會請那個銀行局在那邊再來檢視對,你把天條開一個大後門那後門越開越大怪不得你這個普建融的資本會不斷地集中嘛結果後來發現原來死忠焉的庸者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛對啊\n\n14\n00:04:37,162 --> 00:04:59,117\n主委你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦這個我們會注意喔剛剛那個局長有提到有關都更部分那局長要不要簡單補充一下報告委員因為107年的這個裡面有一些部分像都更圍繞的這個部分的話它本來就在都更或圍繞的那個法律規定裡面就已經排除了我們只是把它納到這個107年的這個涵\n\n15\n00:05:01,377 --> 00:05:30,837\n那當初你們就應該也要這個警覺線嘛你如果任何相關土建農的規定任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話那個土建農的金額就不斷的上升啊不是嗎那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡30%的上限又在哪裡這天花板會自動的調升欸浮動式的欸不是嗎主委是所有洋行的報告當中最關鍵的因素之所以今天啊房地產會居高不下就是資本過度集中嘛\n\n16\n00:05:31,898 --> 00:05:32,198\n委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n\n17\n00:05:50,815 --> 00:06:18,964\n一個月我們可以把一個月以後把那個報告再跟委員說明你們要包括如何檢討如何限縮把那後門關起來啊想盡辦法嘿啊好不好是謝謝主委讓資本一直集中上去嘛所以接下來我想問一下主委的部分主委你也知道本席很關心台中商營嘛台中商營本席去跟你了解一下你們總共前前後後就是精檢了五次\n\n18\n00:06:19,929 --> 00:06:39,572\n在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際會的申報有所缺失但你們也有做行政的處分但是真正的去送到這一個地檢署是在案發四年之後這一點我想請主委你可能要再說明清楚一下\n\n19\n00:06:40,293 --> 00:06:53,068\n因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢察局一個集合人員跟王國輝風的秘書有往來這個是檢察局內部的內機內控出問題可是這家公司的內機內控出問題那我們要怎麼處理\n\n20\n00:06:56,172 --> 00:07:17,020\n主委我待會會請我們那個檢察局跟銀行局來補充不過就是我們就我們金融監理而已我們是根據我們自己的銀行法的裡面的規定看到沒有違反我們的內規當我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候呢因為我們有駐回檢察官我們就會有一個\n\n21\n00:07:18,499 --> 00:07:36,053\n那SOP會跟他討論這個案情本期就是討論給你SOP你的SOP應該是出了問題了你回去好好應對這個案子好好調整一下啦不要過度寬鬆啦第二個吼你知道嗎在檢察局當中你沒有去查過啊臺中商營啊為什麼蓋這個企業總部\n\n22\n00:07:39,064 --> 00:07:49,604\n資本額300億的一個銀行結果他花了100億來蓋這個大樓你不覺得不合比例嗎而且還挖了10層樓地下室還挖了10層樓\n\n23\n00:07:51,482 --> 00:08:12,383\n原因聽說啊,台中的砂石特別好啊。這一頭牽扯到土地出售方是誰,我跟你說,就我理解是新復發啊。中間牽扯到綜藝的這個交易人是誰,你要去查清楚。你這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署,你也應該要查清楚啊。\n\n24\n00:08:14,827 --> 00:08:30,210\n背後的利益結構你沒有把它披露出來到現在為止還疑雲重重啊不是把說焦點放在那個可憐的公務人員因為交情或錯交朋友然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了\n\n25\n00:08:30,950 --> 00:08:57,099\n主委是不過我想說本部本會人員這個涉案部分應該跟這個是我覺得是會從不同的角度考量因為自己內部的控制有這個問題我們也深表遺憾我們也在內部也做過很多檢討然後也做過一些很多的改善措施為責成這個檢察局一定要務必要落實講白一點這個案子你要去重新看一下\n\n26\n00:08:57,879 --> 00:09:18,164\n有無缺失有無該處分沒有處分有無該移送沒有移送你要重新去思考這件事情啊來建立一個範例啊在你上任之後啦好不好金融機關的內積內空出了這麼大的問題對不對好牽扯到內積內空的問題你又看到啦又牽扯到讀懂的角色啦\n\n27\n00:09:19,747 --> 00:09:42,065\n一個立法院已經兼任獨董當他當了獨董的時候你這個公司自己出問題的時候這立法院出來跟你講話的時候這個是獨董還是門審我說假設有這種情況這第一個狀況第二個呢你去看喔過往啊在熱身案幾年前就有類似這種獨董掏空400億三個獨董都沒有事情那你難道都是簽到而已嗎對啊\n\n28\n00:09:48,783 --> 00:10:05,115\n等下課嗎?過了這麼多年我們對獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責有獨董隨便啦薪資就一年上千億大股東提名拿到一千億他還有獨立性嗎?少則平均行情大概一百萬\n\n29\n00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:19,875\n難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎?我不點名我前同事除了那個前同事李姓立委之外他的獨董還有誰?一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子\n\n30\n00:10:22,355 --> 00:10:46,713\n叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能\n\n31\n00:10:48,649 --> 00:11:17,504\n主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是\n\n32\n00:11:18,106 --> 00:11:32,941\n就監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情\n\n33\n00:11:43,045 --> 00:11:47,307\n難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?\n\n34\n00:11:54,997 --> 00:12:12,632\n就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵局會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣\n\n35\n00:12:13,433 --> 00:12:16,674\n主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。\n\n36\n00:12:41,023 --> 00:12:43,233\n這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n309\t21942\t主席有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁請彭主委還有副總裁嚴副總裁嗎?慢慢來沒關係,請嚴副總裁\n28569\t43962\t主委我先說因為大家討論蠻多的如果假設今天的這個條文通過的話預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到台灣那台灣的資金會去哪裡大家非常清楚不是去房市就去股市\n44662\t64120\t那依照目前資金過剩的情況底下我對這個條文老實講羅財委我真的沒有辦法贊成因為我其實對這個資金泛濫的問題其實憂心忡忡就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位就我發現呢央行對整個這個不動產土建融的這個指標是不同的\n64640\t87660\t你看看央行不動產的販款佔全部的販款比重的金額是13.75但是對照於金管會它扣除掉土銀之後只有國銀的部分的這個不動產呢這根據72條之二的部分呢央行的金額居然低過金管會你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差我記得央行的報告有提過特別是山高的部分就有提到這兩項\n89673\t116481\t主要是那個金融債券的那個就是這邊的72條這把那一塊放進去把他拿掉了金融債券的部分那金額大概多少呢金融債券應該是有但是直接在不動產那邊我沒有資料但金融債券大概是一兆多左右因為主要還是在於這個所謂的金額的部分嘛我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛麻煩那個總裁你會後再給我一下因為中秀是要有一個統一的指標我們來看待\n117281\t117481\t李卓人議員\n136852\t137452\t主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在單書販款還有一個最高額度。\n156762\t157043\t中央銀行委員\n172997\t192260\t報言如果就是排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話其實還是沒有超過30那總數多少大概差不多2929左右29左右29左右就接近了接近了不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管\n192520\t205014\t要員工的控管所以說已經接近30%看起來26、27但是其實接近29有詳細的數字再給我一下但是你是72條之二的部分這五款當中你還有一個啊個解壓縮條款欸\n207797\t223994\t什麼是解壓縮小款呢?也就是說你在2018年的時候金管會又出一個函這個函號漏漏等我都不跟你說了這個擴大解釋的部分當中呢這包括醫院、學校、政府這還可以理解到後面\n224915\t244823\t那個主委我跟您提醒一下連廠房的這個條款這個貸款的金額也排除還有都更的部分的條款也排除甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啊\n246892\t273057\t主委,我們其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的它的範圍跟定義這部分我們會請那個銀行局在那邊再來檢視對,你把天條開一個大後門那後門越開越大怪不得你這個普建融的資本會不斷地集中嘛結果後來發現原來死忠焉的庸者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛對啊\n277162\t299117\t主委你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦這個我們會注意喔剛剛那個局長有提到有關都更部分那局長要不要簡單補充一下報告委員因為107年的這個裡面有一些部分像都更圍繞的這個部分的話它本來就在都更或圍繞的那個法律規定裡面就已經排除了我們只是把它納到這個107年的這個涵\n301377\t330837\t那當初你們就應該也要這個警覺線嘛你如果任何相關土建農的規定任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話那個土建農的金額就不斷的上升啊不是嗎那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡30%的上限又在哪裡這天花板會自動的調升欸浮動式的欸不是嗎主委是所有洋行的報告當中最關鍵的因素之所以今天啊房地產會居高不下就是資本過度集中嘛\n331898\t332198\t委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n350815\t378964\t一個月我們可以把一個月以後把那個報告再跟委員說明你們要包括如何檢討如何限縮把那後門關起來啊想盡辦法嘿啊好不好是謝謝主委讓資本一直集中上去嘛所以接下來我想問一下主委的部分主委你也知道本席很關心台中商營嘛台中商營本席去跟你了解一下你們總共前前後後就是精檢了五次\n379929\t399572\t在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際會的申報有所缺失但你們也有做行政的處分但是真正的去送到這一個地檢署是在案發四年之後這一點我想請主委你可能要再說明清楚一下\n400293\t413068\t因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢察局一個集合人員跟王國輝風的秘書有往來這個是檢察局內部的內機內控出問題可是這家公司的內機內控出問題那我們要怎麼處理\n416172\t437020\t主委我待會會請我們那個檢察局跟銀行局來補充不過就是我們就我們金融監理而已我們是根據我們自己的銀行法的裡面的規定看到沒有違反我們的內規當我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候呢因為我們有駐回檢察官我們就會有一個\n438499\t456053\t那SOP會跟他討論這個案情本期就是討論給你SOP你的SOP應該是出了問題了你回去好好應對這個案子好好調整一下啦不要過度寬鬆啦第二個吼你知道嗎在檢察局當中你沒有去查過啊臺中商營啊為什麼蓋這個企業總部\n459064\t469604\t資本額300億的一個銀行結果他花了100億來蓋這個大樓你不覺得不合比例嗎而且還挖了10層樓地下室還挖了10層樓\n471482\t492383\t原因聽說啊,台中的砂石特別好啊。這一頭牽扯到土地出售方是誰,我跟你說,就我理解是新復發啊。中間牽扯到綜藝的這個交易人是誰,你要去查清楚。你這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署,你也應該要查清楚啊。\n494827\t510210\t背後的利益結構你沒有把它披露出來到現在為止還疑雲重重啊不是把說焦點放在那個可憐的公務人員因為交情或錯交朋友然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了\n510950\t537099\t主委是不過我想說本部本會人員這個涉案部分應該跟這個是我覺得是會從不同的角度考量因為自己內部的控制有這個問題我們也深表遺憾我們也在內部也做過很多檢討然後也做過一些很多的改善措施為責成這個檢察局一定要務必要落實講白一點這個案子你要去重新看一下\n537879\t558164\t有無缺失有無該處分沒有處分有無該移送沒有移送你要重新去思考這件事情啊來建立一個範例啊在你上任之後啦好不好金融機關的內積內空出了這麼大的問題對不對好牽扯到內積內空的問題你又看到啦又牽扯到讀懂的角色啦\n559747\t582065\t一個立法院已經兼任獨董當他當了獨董的時候你這個公司自己出問題的時候這立法院出來跟你講話的時候這個是獨董還是門審我說假設有這種情況這第一個狀況第二個呢你去看喔過往啊在熱身案幾年前就有類似這種獨董掏空400億三個獨董都沒有事情那你難道都是簽到而已嗎對啊\n588783\t605115\t等下課嗎?過了這麼多年我們對獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責有獨董隨便啦薪資就一年上千億大股東提名拿到一千億他還有獨立性嗎?少則平均行情大概一百萬\n607780\t619875\t難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎?我不點名我前同事除了那個前同事李姓立委之外他的獨董還有誰?一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子\n622355\t646713\t叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能\n648649\t677504\t主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是\n678106\t692941\t就監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情\n703045\t707307\t難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?\n714997\t732632\t就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵局會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣\n733433\t736674\t主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。\n761023\t763233\t這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員\n","txt":"主席有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁請彭主委還有副總裁嚴副總裁嗎?慢慢來沒關係,請嚴副總裁\n主委我先說因為大家討論蠻多的如果假設今天的這個條文通過的話預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到台灣那台灣的資金會去哪裡大家非常清楚不是去房市就去股市\n那依照目前資金過剩的情況底下我對這個條文老實講羅財委我真的沒有辦法贊成因為我其實對這個資金泛濫的問題其實憂心忡忡就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位就我發現呢央行對整個這個不動產土建融的這個指標是不同的\n你看看央行不動產的販款佔全部的販款比重的金額是13.75但是對照於金管會它扣除掉土銀之後只有國銀的部分的這個不動產呢這根據72條之二的部分呢央行的金額居然低過金管會你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差我記得央行的報告有提過特別是山高的部分就有提到這兩項\n主要是那個金融債券的那個就是這邊的72條這把那一塊放進去把他拿掉了金融債券的部分那金額大概多少呢金融債券應該是有但是直接在不動產那邊我沒有資料但金融債券大概是一兆多左右因為主要還是在於這個所謂的金額的部分嘛我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛麻煩那個總裁你會後再給我一下因為中秀是要有一個統一的指標我們來看待\n李卓人議員\n主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在單書販款還有一個最高額度。\n中央銀行委員\n報言如果就是排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話其實還是沒有超過30那總數多少大概差不多2929左右29左右29左右就接近了接近了不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管\n要員工的控管所以說已經接近30%看起來26、27但是其實接近29有詳細的數字再給我一下但是你是72條之二的部分這五款當中你還有一個啊個解壓縮條款欸\n什麼是解壓縮小款呢?也就是說你在2018年的時候金管會又出一個函這個函號漏漏等我都不跟你說了這個擴大解釋的部分當中呢這包括醫院、學校、政府這還可以理解到後面\n那個主委我跟您提醒一下連廠房的這個條款這個貸款的金額也排除還有都更的部分的條款也排除甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啊\n主委,我們其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的它的範圍跟定義這部分我們會請那個銀行局在那邊再來檢視對,你把天條開一個大後門那後門越開越大怪不得你這個普建融的資本會不斷地集中嘛結果後來發現原來死忠焉的庸者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛對啊\n主委你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦這個我們會注意喔剛剛那個局長有提到有關都更部分那局長要不要簡單補充一下報告委員因為107年的這個裡面有一些部分像都更圍繞的這個部分的話它本來就在都更或圍繞的那個法律規定裡面就已經排除了我們只是把它納到這個107年的這個涵\n那當初你們就應該也要這個警覺線嘛你如果任何相關土建農的規定任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話那個土建農的金額就不斷的上升啊不是嗎那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡30%的上限又在哪裡這天花板會自動的調升欸浮動式的欸不是嗎主委是所有洋行的報告當中最關鍵的因素之所以今天啊房地產會居高不下就是資本過度集中嘛\n委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n一個月我們可以把一個月以後把那個報告再跟委員說明你們要包括如何檢討如何限縮把那後門關起來啊想盡辦法嘿啊好不好是謝謝主委讓資本一直集中上去嘛所以接下來我想問一下主委的部分主委你也知道本席很關心台中商營嘛台中商營本席去跟你了解一下你們總共前前後後就是精檢了五次\n在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際會的申報有所缺失但你們也有做行政的處分但是真正的去送到這一個地檢署是在案發四年之後這一點我想請主委你可能要再說明清楚一下\n因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢察局一個集合人員跟王國輝風的秘書有往來這個是檢察局內部的內機內控出問題可是這家公司的內機內控出問題那我們要怎麼處理\n主委我待會會請我們那個檢察局跟銀行局來補充不過就是我們就我們金融監理而已我們是根據我們自己的銀行法的裡面的規定看到沒有違反我們的內規當我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候呢因為我們有駐回檢察官我們就會有一個\n那SOP會跟他討論這個案情本期就是討論給你SOP你的SOP應該是出了問題了你回去好好應對這個案子好好調整一下啦不要過度寬鬆啦第二個吼你知道嗎在檢察局當中你沒有去查過啊臺中商營啊為什麼蓋這個企業總部\n資本額300億的一個銀行結果他花了100億來蓋這個大樓你不覺得不合比例嗎而且還挖了10層樓地下室還挖了10層樓\n原因聽說啊,台中的砂石特別好啊。這一頭牽扯到土地出售方是誰,我跟你說,就我理解是新復發啊。中間牽扯到綜藝的這個交易人是誰,你要去查清楚。你這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署,你也應該要查清楚啊。\n背後的利益結構你沒有把它披露出來到現在為止還疑雲重重啊不是把說焦點放在那個可憐的公務人員因為交情或錯交朋友然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了\n主委是不過我想說本部本會人員這個涉案部分應該跟這個是我覺得是會從不同的角度考量因為自己內部的控制有這個問題我們也深表遺憾我們也在內部也做過很多檢討然後也做過一些很多的改善措施為責成這個檢察局一定要務必要落實講白一點這個案子你要去重新看一下\n有無缺失有無該處分沒有處分有無該移送沒有移送你要重新去思考這件事情啊來建立一個範例啊在你上任之後啦好不好金融機關的內積內空出了這麼大的問題對不對好牽扯到內積內空的問題你又看到啦又牽扯到讀懂的角色啦\n一個立法院已經兼任獨董當他當了獨董的時候你這個公司自己出問題的時候這立法院出來跟你講話的時候這個是獨董還是門審我說假設有這種情況這第一個狀況第二個呢你去看喔過往啊在熱身案幾年前就有類似這種獨董掏空400億三個獨董都沒有事情那你難道都是簽到而已嗎對啊\n等下課嗎?過了這麼多年我們對獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責有獨董隨便啦薪資就一年上千億大股東提名拿到一千億他還有獨立性嗎?少則平均行情大概一百萬\n難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎?我不點名我前同事除了那個前同事李姓立委之外他的獨董還有誰?一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子\n叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能\n主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是\n就監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情\n難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?\n就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵局會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣\n主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。\n這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.309 --> 00:21.942\n主席有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁請彭主委還有副總裁嚴副總裁嗎?慢慢來沒關係,請嚴副總裁\n\n00:28.569 --> 00:43.962\n主委我先說因為大家討論蠻多的如果假設今天的這個條文通過的話預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到台灣那台灣的資金會去哪裡大家非常清楚不是去房市就去股市\n\n00:44.662 --> 01:04.120\n那依照目前資金過剩的情況底下我對這個條文老實講羅財委我真的沒有辦法贊成因為我其實對這個資金泛濫的問題其實憂心忡忡就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位就我發現呢央行對整個這個不動產土建融的這個指標是不同的\n\n01:04.640 --> 01:27.660\n你看看央行不動產的販款佔全部的販款比重的金額是13.75但是對照於金管會它扣除掉土銀之後只有國銀的部分的這個不動產呢這根據72條之二的部分呢央行的金額居然低過金管會你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差我記得央行的報告有提過特別是山高的部分就有提到這兩項\n\n01:29.673 --> 01:56.481\n主要是那個金融債券的那個就是這邊的72條這把那一塊放進去把他拿掉了金融債券的部分那金額大概多少呢金融債券應該是有但是直接在不動產那邊我沒有資料但金融債券大概是一兆多左右因為主要還是在於這個所謂的金額的部分嘛我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛麻煩那個總裁你會後再給我一下因為中秀是要有一個統一的指標我們來看待\n\n01:57.281 --> 01:57.481\n李卓人議員\n\n02:16.852 --> 02:17.452\n主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在單書販款還有一個最高額度。\n\n02:36.762 --> 02:37.043\n中央銀行委員\n\n02:52.997 --> 03:12.260\n報言如果就是排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話其實還是沒有超過30那總數多少大概差不多2929左右29左右29左右就接近了接近了不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管\n\n03:12.520 --> 03:25.014\n要員工的控管所以說已經接近30%看起來26、27但是其實接近29有詳細的數字再給我一下但是你是72條之二的部分這五款當中你還有一個啊個解壓縮條款欸\n\n03:27.797 --> 03:43.994\n什麼是解壓縮小款呢?也就是說你在2018年的時候金管會又出一個函這個函號漏漏等我都不跟你說了這個擴大解釋的部分當中呢這包括醫院、學校、政府這還可以理解到後面\n\n03:44.915 --> 04:04.823\n那個主委我跟您提醒一下連廠房的這個條款這個貸款的金額也排除還有都更的部分的條款也排除甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啊\n\n04:06.892 --> 04:33.057\n主委,我們其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的它的範圍跟定義這部分我們會請那個銀行局在那邊再來檢視對,你把天條開一個大後門那後門越開越大怪不得你這個普建融的資本會不斷地集中嘛結果後來發現原來死忠焉的庸者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛對啊\n\n04:37.162 --> 04:59.117\n主委你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦這個我們會注意喔剛剛那個局長有提到有關都更部分那局長要不要簡單補充一下報告委員因為107年的這個裡面有一些部分像都更圍繞的這個部分的話它本來就在都更或圍繞的那個法律規定裡面就已經排除了我們只是把它納到這個107年的這個涵\n\n05:01.377 --> 05:30.837\n那當初你們就應該也要這個警覺線嘛你如果任何相關土建農的規定任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話那個土建農的金額就不斷的上升啊不是嗎那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡30%的上限又在哪裡這天花板會自動的調升欸浮動式的欸不是嗎主委是所有洋行的報告當中最關鍵的因素之所以今天啊房地產會居高不下就是資本過度集中嘛\n\n05:31.898 --> 05:32.198\n委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n\n05:50.815 --> 06:18.964\n一個月我們可以把一個月以後把那個報告再跟委員說明你們要包括如何檢討如何限縮把那後門關起來啊想盡辦法嘿啊好不好是謝謝主委讓資本一直集中上去嘛所以接下來我想問一下主委的部分主委你也知道本席很關心台中商營嘛台中商營本席去跟你了解一下你們總共前前後後就是精檢了五次\n\n06:19.929 --> 06:39.572\n在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際會的申報有所缺失但你們也有做行政的處分但是真正的去送到這一個地檢署是在案發四年之後這一點我想請主委你可能要再說明清楚一下\n\n06:40.293 --> 06:53.068\n因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢察局一個集合人員跟王國輝風的秘書有往來這個是檢察局內部的內機內控出問題可是這家公司的內機內控出問題那我們要怎麼處理\n\n06:56.172 --> 07:17.020\n主委我待會會請我們那個檢察局跟銀行局來補充不過就是我們就我們金融監理而已我們是根據我們自己的銀行法的裡面的規定看到沒有違反我們的內規當我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候呢因為我們有駐回檢察官我們就會有一個\n\n07:18.499 --> 07:36.053\n那SOP會跟他討論這個案情本期就是討論給你SOP你的SOP應該是出了問題了你回去好好應對這個案子好好調整一下啦不要過度寬鬆啦第二個吼你知道嗎在檢察局當中你沒有去查過啊臺中商營啊為什麼蓋這個企業總部\n\n07:39.064 --> 07:49.604\n資本額300億的一個銀行結果他花了100億來蓋這個大樓你不覺得不合比例嗎而且還挖了10層樓地下室還挖了10層樓\n\n07:51.482 --> 08:12.383\n原因聽說啊,台中的砂石特別好啊。這一頭牽扯到土地出售方是誰,我跟你說,就我理解是新復發啊。中間牽扯到綜藝的這個交易人是誰,你要去查清楚。你這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署,你也應該要查清楚啊。\n\n08:14.827 --> 08:30.210\n背後的利益結構你沒有把它披露出來到現在為止還疑雲重重啊不是把說焦點放在那個可憐的公務人員因為交情或錯交朋友然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了\n\n08:30.950 --> 08:57.099\n主委是不過我想說本部本會人員這個涉案部分應該跟這個是我覺得是會從不同的角度考量因為自己內部的控制有這個問題我們也深表遺憾我們也在內部也做過很多檢討然後也做過一些很多的改善措施為責成這個檢察局一定要務必要落實講白一點這個案子你要去重新看一下\n\n08:57.879 --> 09:18.164\n有無缺失有無該處分沒有處分有無該移送沒有移送你要重新去思考這件事情啊來建立一個範例啊在你上任之後啦好不好金融機關的內積內空出了這麼大的問題對不對好牽扯到內積內空的問題你又看到啦又牽扯到讀懂的角色啦\n\n09:19.747 --> 09:42.065\n一個立法院已經兼任獨董當他當了獨董的時候你這個公司自己出問題的時候這立法院出來跟你講話的時候這個是獨董還是門審我說假設有這種情況這第一個狀況第二個呢你去看喔過往啊在熱身案幾年前就有類似這種獨董掏空400億三個獨董都沒有事情那你難道都是簽到而已嗎對啊\n\n09:48.783 --> 10:05.115\n等下課嗎?過了這麼多年我們對獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責有獨董隨便啦薪資就一年上千億大股東提名拿到一千億他還有獨立性嗎?少則平均行情大概一百萬\n\n10:07.780 --> 10:19.875\n難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎?我不點名我前同事除了那個前同事李姓立委之外他的獨董還有誰?一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子\n\n10:22.355 --> 10:46.713\n叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能\n\n10:48.649 --> 11:17.504\n主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是\n\n11:18.106 --> 11:32.941\n就監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情\n\n11:43.045 --> 11:47.307\n難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?\n\n11:54.997 --> 12:12.632\n就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵局會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣\n\n12:13.433 --> 12:16.674\n主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。\n\n12:41.023 --> 12:43.233\n這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.309,"end":21.942,"text":"主席有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁請彭主委還有副總裁嚴副總裁嗎?慢慢來沒關係,請嚴副總裁"},{"start":28.569,"end":43.962,"text":"主委我先說因為大家討論蠻多的如果假設今天的這個條文通過的話預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到台灣那台灣的資金會去哪裡大家非常清楚不是去房市就去股市"},{"start":44.662,"end":64.12,"text":"那依照目前資金過剩的情況底下我對這個條文老實講羅財委我真的沒有辦法贊成因為我其實對這個資金泛濫的問題其實憂心忡忡就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位就我發現呢央行對整個這個不動產土建融的這個指標是不同的"},{"start":64.64,"end":87.66,"text":"你看看央行不動產的販款佔全部的販款比重的金額是13.75但是對照於金管會它扣除掉土銀之後只有國銀的部分的這個不動產呢這根據72條之二的部分呢央行的金額居然低過金管會你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差我記得央行的報告有提過特別是山高的部分就有提到這兩項"},{"start":89.673,"end":116.481,"text":"主要是那個金融債券的那個就是這邊的72條這把那一塊放進去把他拿掉了金融債券的部分那金額大概多少呢金融債券應該是有但是直接在不動產那邊我沒有資料但金融債券大概是一兆多左右因為主要還是在於這個所謂的金額的部分嘛我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛麻煩那個總裁你會後再給我一下因為中秀是要有一個統一的指標我們來看待"},{"start":117.281,"end":117.481,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":136.852,"end":137.452,"text":"主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在單書販款還有一個最高額度。"},{"start":156.762,"end":157.043,"text":"中央銀行委員"},{"start":172.997,"end":192.26,"text":"報言如果就是排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話其實還是沒有超過30那總數多少大概差不多2929左右29左右29左右就接近了接近了不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管"},{"start":192.52,"end":205.014,"text":"要員工的控管所以說已經接近30%看起來26、27但是其實接近29有詳細的數字再給我一下但是你是72條之二的部分這五款當中你還有一個啊個解壓縮條款欸"},{"start":207.797,"end":223.994,"text":"什麼是解壓縮小款呢?也就是說你在2018年的時候金管會又出一個函這個函號漏漏等我都不跟你說了這個擴大解釋的部分當中呢這包括醫院、學校、政府這還可以理解到後面"},{"start":224.915,"end":244.823,"text":"那個主委我跟您提醒一下連廠房的這個條款這個貸款的金額也排除還有都更的部分的條款也排除甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啊"},{"start":246.892,"end":273.057,"text":"主委,我們其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的它的範圍跟定義這部分我們會請那個銀行局在那邊再來檢視對,你把天條開一個大後門那後門越開越大怪不得你這個普建融的資本會不斷地集中嘛結果後來發現原來死忠焉的庸者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛對啊"},{"start":277.162,"end":299.117,"text":"主委你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦這個我們會注意喔剛剛那個局長有提到有關都更部分那局長要不要簡單補充一下報告委員因為107年的這個裡面有一些部分像都更圍繞的這個部分的話它本來就在都更或圍繞的那個法律規定裡面就已經排除了我們只是把它納到這個107年的這個涵"},{"start":301.377,"end":330.837,"text":"那當初你們就應該也要這個警覺線嘛你如果任何相關土建農的規定任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話那個土建農的金額就不斷的上升啊不是嗎那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡30%的上限又在哪裡這天花板會自動的調升欸浮動式的欸不是嗎主委是所有洋行的報告當中最關鍵的因素之所以今天啊房地產會居高不下就是資本過度集中嘛"},{"start":331.898,"end":332.198,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":350.815,"end":378.964,"text":"一個月我們可以把一個月以後把那個報告再跟委員說明你們要包括如何檢討如何限縮把那後門關起來啊想盡辦法嘿啊好不好是謝謝主委讓資本一直集中上去嘛所以接下來我想問一下主委的部分主委你也知道本席很關心台中商營嘛台中商營本席去跟你了解一下你們總共前前後後就是精檢了五次"},{"start":379.929,"end":399.572,"text":"在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際會的申報有所缺失但你們也有做行政的處分但是真正的去送到這一個地檢署是在案發四年之後這一點我想請主委你可能要再說明清楚一下"},{"start":400.293,"end":413.068,"text":"因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢察局一個集合人員跟王國輝風的秘書有往來這個是檢察局內部的內機內控出問題可是這家公司的內機內控出問題那我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":416.172,"end":437.02,"text":"主委我待會會請我們那個檢察局跟銀行局來補充不過就是我們就我們金融監理而已我們是根據我們自己的銀行法的裡面的規定看到沒有違反我們的內規當我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候呢因為我們有駐回檢察官我們就會有一個"},{"start":438.499,"end":456.053,"text":"那SOP會跟他討論這個案情本期就是討論給你SOP你的SOP應該是出了問題了你回去好好應對這個案子好好調整一下啦不要過度寬鬆啦第二個吼你知道嗎在檢察局當中你沒有去查過啊臺中商營啊為什麼蓋這個企業總部"},{"start":459.064,"end":469.604,"text":"資本額300億的一個銀行結果他花了100億來蓋這個大樓你不覺得不合比例嗎而且還挖了10層樓地下室還挖了10層樓"},{"start":471.482,"end":492.383,"text":"原因聽說啊,台中的砂石特別好啊。這一頭牽扯到土地出售方是誰,我跟你說,就我理解是新復發啊。中間牽扯到綜藝的這個交易人是誰,你要去查清楚。你這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署,你也應該要查清楚啊。"},{"start":494.827,"end":510.21,"text":"背後的利益結構你沒有把它披露出來到現在為止還疑雲重重啊不是把說焦點放在那個可憐的公務人員因為交情或錯交朋友然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了"},{"start":510.95,"end":537.099,"text":"主委是不過我想說本部本會人員這個涉案部分應該跟這個是我覺得是會從不同的角度考量因為自己內部的控制有這個問題我們也深表遺憾我們也在內部也做過很多檢討然後也做過一些很多的改善措施為責成這個檢察局一定要務必要落實講白一點這個案子你要去重新看一下"},{"start":537.879,"end":558.164,"text":"有無缺失有無該處分沒有處分有無該移送沒有移送你要重新去思考這件事情啊來建立一個範例啊在你上任之後啦好不好金融機關的內積內空出了這麼大的問題對不對好牽扯到內積內空的問題你又看到啦又牽扯到讀懂的角色啦"},{"start":559.747,"end":582.065,"text":"一個立法院已經兼任獨董當他當了獨董的時候你這個公司自己出問題的時候這立法院出來跟你講話的時候這個是獨董還是門審我說假設有這種情況這第一個狀況第二個呢你去看喔過往啊在熱身案幾年前就有類似這種獨董掏空400億三個獨董都沒有事情那你難道都是簽到而已嗎對啊"},{"start":588.783,"end":605.115,"text":"等下課嗎?過了這麼多年我們對獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責有獨董隨便啦薪資就一年上千億大股東提名拿到一千億他還有獨立性嗎?少則平均行情大概一百萬"},{"start":607.78,"end":619.875,"text":"難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎?我不點名我前同事除了那個前同事李姓立委之外他的獨董還有誰?一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子"},{"start":622.355,"end":646.713,"text":"叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能"},{"start":648.649,"end":677.504,"text":"主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是"},{"start":678.106,"end":692.941,"text":"就監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情"},{"start":703.045,"end":707.307,"text":"難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?"},{"start":714.997,"end":732.632,"text":"就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵局會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣"},{"start":733.433,"end":736.674,"text":"主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。"},{"start":761.023,"end":763.233,"text":"這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員"}]}}}}