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{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 806.676, \"end\": 806.816, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 806.816, \"end\": 806.957, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 806.957, \"end\": 807.117, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 807.117, \"end\": 807.137, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:19,036\n委員會發言主席我們請黃市長來請黃市長市長早\n\n2\n00:00:26,843 --> 00:00:49,550\n今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席這個次長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家的同仁的肯定希望說次長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個\n\n3\n00:00:51,874 --> 00:00:53,195\n昨天的新聞大概有關於這個\n\n4\n00:01:15,728 --> 00:01:31,858\n犯罪集團他用這個申請青年幫年輕人申請青年貸款來騙取個資之後用個資來用這些個資來成立這個公司帳戶然後用公司帳戶來進行詐騙作為這個詐騙的這個人頭帳戶這樣子的犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個\n\n5\n00:01:39,232 --> 00:01:43,857\n本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查。\n\n6\n00:02:02,585 --> 00:02:22,411\n那我個人就是說針對現在這樣子的這種以公司帳戶因為公司帳戶他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣公司帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業零貴的這個這個問題所以警覺了對所以我個人針對現在這樣子的\n\n7\n00:02:29,977 --> 00:02:37,739\n的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握\n\n8\n00:02:38,453 --> 00:03:03,829\n是我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治\n\n9\n00:03:04,409 --> 00:03:04,629\n．沈發惠\n\n10\n00:03:25,799 --> 00:03:32,421\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n\n11\n00:03:47,245 --> 00:04:13,536\n目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防\n\n12\n00:04:14,315 --> 00:04:32,820\n那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個\n\n13\n00:04:35,961 --> 00:04:36,242\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n\n14\n00:05:05,401 --> 00:05:06,863\n國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效\n\n15\n00:05:21,363 --> 00:05:29,690\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n16\n00:05:46,207 --> 00:06:06,934\n這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。\n\n17\n00:06:08,595 --> 00:06:15,049\n但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法\n\n18\n00:06:19,295 --> 00:06:39,586\n他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性\n\n19\n00:06:42,788 --> 00:07:06,208\n那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的\n\n20\n00:07:11,292 --> 00:07:21,226\n大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。\n\n21\n00:07:26,427 --> 00:07:45,712\n主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法\n\n22\n00:07:52,193 --> 00:08:10,563\n就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個\n\n23\n00:08:20,562 --> 00:08:40,789\n現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。\n\n24\n00:08:41,428 --> 00:09:04,133\n但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對\n\n25\n00:09:08,855 --> 00:09:33,547\n是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範\n\n26\n00:09:35,134 --> 00:09:59,945\n我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則\n\n27\n00:10:03,905 --> 00:10:30,255\n自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說\n\n28\n00:10:32,305 --> 00:10:43,369\n這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢\n\n29\n00:10:58,991 --> 00:10:59,411\n主席主席\n\n30\n00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:38,057\n但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。\n\n31\n00:11:40,539 --> 00:11:55,094\n這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說\n\n32\n00:11:56,527 --> 00:12:23,032\n一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了\n\n33\n00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:48,866\n所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益\n\n34\n00:12:50,773 --> 00:13:11,105\n連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡\n\n35\n00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:27,137\n所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t19036\t委員會發言主席我們請黃市長來請黃市長市長早\n26843\t49550\t今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席這個次長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家的同仁的肯定希望說次長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個\n51874\t53195\t昨天的新聞大概有關於這個\n75728\t91858\t犯罪集團他用這個申請青年幫年輕人申請青年貸款來騙取個資之後用個資來用這些個資來成立這個公司帳戶然後用公司帳戶來進行詐騙作為這個詐騙的這個人頭帳戶這樣子的犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個\n99232\t103857\t本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查。\n122585\t142411\t那我個人就是說針對現在這樣子的這種以公司帳戶因為公司帳戶他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣公司帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業零貴的這個這個問題所以警覺了對所以我個人針對現在這樣子的\n149977\t157739\t的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握\n158453\t183829\t是 我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治\n184409\t184629\t．沈發惠\n205799\t212421\t議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n227245\t253536\t目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防\n254315\t272820\t那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個\n275961\t276242\t議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n305401\t306863\t國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效\n321363\t329690\t議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員\n346207\t366934\t這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。\n368595\t375049\t但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法\n379295\t399586\t他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性\n402788\t426208\t那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的\n431292\t441226\t大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。\n446427\t465712\t主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法\n472193\t490563\t就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個\n500562\t520789\t現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。\n521428\t544133\t但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對\n548855\t573547\t是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範\n575134\t599945\t我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則\n603905\t630255\t自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說\n632305\t643369\t這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢\n658991\t659411\t主席主席\n683140\t698057\t但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。\n700539\t715094\t這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說\n716527\t743032\t一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了\n744690\t768866\t所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益\n770773\t791105\t連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡\n793516\t807137\t所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上\n","txt":"委員會發言主席我們請黃市長來請黃市長市長早\n今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席這個次長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家的同仁的肯定希望說次長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個\n昨天的新聞大概有關於這個\n犯罪集團他用這個申請青年幫年輕人申請青年貸款來騙取個資之後用個資來用這些個資來成立這個公司帳戶然後用公司帳戶來進行詐騙作為這個詐騙的這個人頭帳戶這樣子的犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個\n本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查。\n那我個人就是說針對現在這樣子的這種以公司帳戶因為公司帳戶他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣公司帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業零貴的這個這個問題所以警覺了對所以我個人針對現在這樣子的\n的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握\n是 我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治\n．沈發惠\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防\n那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員\n這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。\n但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法\n他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性\n那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的\n大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。\n主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法\n就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個\n現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。\n但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對\n是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範\n我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則\n自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說\n這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢\n主席主席\n但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。\n這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說\n一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了\n所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益\n連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡\n所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:19.036\n委員會發言主席我們請黃市長來請黃市長市長早\n\n00:26.843 --> 00:49.550\n今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席這個次長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家的同仁的肯定希望說次長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個\n\n00:51.874 --> 00:53.195\n昨天的新聞大概有關於這個\n\n01:15.728 --> 01:31.858\n犯罪集團他用這個申請青年幫年輕人申請青年貸款來騙取個資之後用個資來用這些個資來成立這個公司帳戶然後用公司帳戶來進行詐騙作為這個詐騙的這個人頭帳戶這樣子的犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個\n\n01:39.232 --> 01:43.857\n本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查。\n\n02:02.585 --> 02:22.411\n那我個人就是說針對現在這樣子的這種以公司帳戶因為公司帳戶他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣公司帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業零貴的這個這個問題所以警覺了對所以我個人針對現在這樣子的\n\n02:29.977 --> 02:37.739\n的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握\n\n02:38.453 --> 03:03.829\n是我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治\n\n03:04.409 --> 03:04.629\n．沈發惠\n\n03:25.799 --> 03:32.421\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n\n03:47.245 --> 04:13.536\n目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防\n\n04:14.315 --> 04:32.820\n那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個\n\n04:35.961 --> 04:36.242\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具\n\n05:05.401 --> 05:06.863\n國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效\n\n05:21.363 --> 05:29.690\n議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n05:46.207 --> 06:06.934\n這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。\n\n06:08.595 --> 06:15.049\n但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法\n\n06:19.295 --> 06:39.586\n他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性\n\n06:42.788 --> 07:06.208\n那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的\n\n07:11.292 --> 07:21.226\n大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。\n\n07:26.427 --> 07:45.712\n主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法\n\n07:52.193 --> 08:10.563\n就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個\n\n08:20.562 --> 08:40.789\n現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。\n\n08:41.428 --> 09:04.133\n但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對\n\n09:08.855 --> 09:33.547\n是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範\n\n09:35.134 --> 09:59.945\n我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則\n\n10:03.905 --> 10:30.255\n自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說\n\n10:32.305 --> 10:43.369\n這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢\n\n10:58.991 --> 10:59.411\n主席主席\n\n11:23.140 --> 11:38.057\n但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。\n\n11:40.539 --> 11:55.094\n這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說\n\n11:56.527 --> 12:23.032\n一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了\n\n12:24.690 --> 12:48.866\n所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益\n\n12:50.773 --> 13:11.105\n連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡\n\n13:13.516 --> 13:27.137\n所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":19.036,"text":"委員會發言主席我們請黃市長來請黃市長市長早"},{"start":26.843,"end":49.55,"text":"今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席這個次長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家的同仁的肯定希望說次長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個"},{"start":51.874,"end":53.195,"text":"昨天的新聞大概有關於這個"},{"start":75.728,"end":91.858,"text":"犯罪集團他用這個申請青年幫年輕人申請青年貸款來騙取個資之後用個資來用這些個資來成立這個公司帳戶然後用公司帳戶來進行詐騙作為這個詐騙的這個人頭帳戶這樣子的犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個"},{"start":99.232,"end":103.857,"text":"本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查。"},{"start":122.585,"end":142.411,"text":"那我個人就是說針對現在這樣子的這種以公司帳戶因為公司帳戶他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣公司帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業零貴的這個這個問題所以警覺了對所以我個人針對現在這樣子的"},{"start":149.977,"end":157.739,"text":"的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握"},{"start":158.453,"end":183.829,"text":"是 我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治"},{"start":184.409,"end":184.629,"text":"．沈發惠"},{"start":205.799,"end":212.421,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":227.245,"end":253.536,"text":"目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防"},{"start":254.315,"end":272.82,"text":"那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個"},{"start":275.961,"end":276.242,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":305.401,"end":306.863,"text":"國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效"},{"start":321.363,"end":329.69,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":346.207,"end":366.934,"text":"這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。"},{"start":368.595,"end":375.049,"text":"但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法"},{"start":379.295,"end":399.586,"text":"他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性"},{"start":402.788,"end":426.208,"text":"那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的"},{"start":431.292,"end":441.226,"text":"大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。"},{"start":446.427,"end":465.712,"text":"主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法"},{"start":472.193,"end":490.563,"text":"就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個"},{"start":500.562,"end":520.789,"text":"現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。"},{"start":521.428,"end":544.133,"text":"但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對"},{"start":548.855,"end":573.547,"text":"是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範"},{"start":575.134,"end":599.945,"text":"我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則"},{"start":603.905,"end":630.255,"text":"自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說"},{"start":632.305,"end":643.369,"text":"這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢"},{"start":658.991,"end":659.411,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":683.14,"end":698.057,"text":"但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。"},{"start":700.539,"end":715.094,"text":"這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說"},{"start":716.527,"end":743.032,"text":"一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了"},{"start":744.69,"end":768.866,"text":"所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益"},{"start":770.773,"end":791.105,"text":"連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡"},{"start":793.516,"end":807.137,"text":"所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上"}]}}}}