{"id":154466,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd1f922ad58e32e53d266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769bd553ae1fc4f0545b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:15:05 - 10:30:33","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:15:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:30:33+08:00","duration":928,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時15分）主席，剛剛在提案說明時，因為本席是今天主席的關係，所以容許我很簡短先做提案說明。","鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費、保管費、違約金等名目，藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制，而據行政院消費者保護處統計，過去每年約三、四百件該類融資相關消費爭議，因銀行是特許行業，金管會對其有行政指導權，並能對其進行金檢，故銀行多不至於危害消費者。但這些泛稱融資公司的業者並無人監督，實務上也常見他們誘使大學生、失業者或上班族進行超貸，製造更多社會問題。因此本席提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項，明定超過利率上限之契約無效；並增加第二項，明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費、違約應納入共同計算。","現在有請法務部黃次長，還有金管會銀行局侯主秘，也同時邀請經濟部陳副署長和消保處陳副處長，一起並同協助說明。"],["主席：請剛才鍾委員所提到的這些單位主管上台備詢。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我先秀一下一些媒體報導，媒體報導說，租賃公司不看收入證明，高利貸放給小白，因此子債父償，畢竟多數家長不忍心看孩子欠錢，就會出來清償。又或者有人透過融資公司貸款38萬，但要先扣手續費9%，而代辦公司除了收手續費，還要加對保費，實際上只拿到30萬，甚至最後還了52萬，利率高達51%。請問次長，過去在您服務民眾的經驗中，有沒有常遇到這類爭議？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們都會遇到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副處長、主秘，還有副署長，應該都瞭解吧？我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了，本席主要的修正目的是防止融資公司巧立名目收費。我來介紹一下幾個情況給大家瞭解。","大家聽過分期付款吧？所謂分期付款，就是消費者─我要買車，可能要100萬，車商會幫忙我向銀行辦理分期付款，把我所買的車設定抵押給銀行；銀行就會把車款付給車商，未來我就是定期付銀行的分期付款，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但分期付款一定會加上我要給銀行的利息嘛？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是正常的情況。那麼融資租賃呢？融資租賃就是承租人有信用問題，所以銀行不會貸款給他，於是他找了一個出租人，這個出租人就是融資租賃業者，去跟銀行辦理分期付款的貸款，買了一輛車在業者名下，設定抵押給銀行，然後再出租給承租人。但承租人每個月付的租金遠大於出租人的本息再加上業務費用，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是融資租賃，因為沒有辦法融資，所以透過融資租賃公司以租賃的型態，實質上取得融資購車的需求。等到租約期滿，若有殘值，搞不好承租人還可以向出租人買，大概是這樣，但我們看一下現在的情況。有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬？有沒有聽過？"],["黃次長世杰：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問主秘有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬？而且是年輕的上班族、學生？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：之前有，但現在有要求不可以這樣做了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副署長有沒有聽過？"],["陳副署長秘順：有聽過新聞報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：消保處副處長知道嗎？"],["陳副處長星宏：是。這在相關的消費爭議中曾經……"],["鍾委員佳濱：常常看到？來，我試著解釋看看，這非常複雜。同樣的，受害者沒有信用、沒辦法跟銀行申請，沒有辦法取得30萬，但融資公司說可以借30萬，只是要有機車。很奇怪，借錢給你還要機車幹什麼？設定給我嗎？沒有，機車沒辦法設定抵押。但是他說，我給你30萬，購買你機車所有的使用權，車子還是你的，只是我跟你買這輛車的使用權，然後你每個月要付我租金，這樣瞭解了？我給你30萬，購買你所擁有機車的使用權，車子還是你的，我跟你買這輛車的使用權，然後你每個月要付我租金，這樣瞭解了嗎？我30萬是買你機車主的使用權。但是你有沒有拿到30萬？沒有！他給你七扣八扣，只給你21萬。那這個30萬誰出？這個30萬其實他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的租車的相關資料，幫受害者去申請銀行的消貸、信用貸款。那很奇怪啊！受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢，但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件、用他本人跟銀行辦信用貸款，結果呢？這個受害者其實就背負了銀行的負債，他每個月交給融資公司的租金，融資公司把它拿去給銀行還本息，一旦這個受害者付不起這個租金，車子是他的，他付不起使用車子的租金，銀行就開始來跟他追債。","請問次長，這個模式是不是你所知道的？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我有看過這樣的情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他就很巧妙地用話術，事實上用受害者的身分去辦信用貸款，他本身又拿受害者的車子虛假製作了一個使用權的購買，然後再把錢給他，但是要付租金，然後去幫他還他的貸款。","還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸，永遠還不完，而且越欠越多。正常來講，我們買車，現在很多出社會沒多久的年輕人一下子就牽一輛車100萬，還可以有現金。什麼意思？融資公司說：來，買車的100萬我幫你付，然後我給你貸款120萬（債務），扣掉手續費，你可以拿12萬現金。買一輛車100萬還可以拿現金，天底下有這麼好的事情嗎？沒有！他就是負債120萬，前6個月可能還了本利6期共30萬，債務打消了本金20萬。融資公司說：欸！你還6期了，我幫你整合債務，然後我再找二胎──B融資公司，B融資公司說：我可以借你150萬。一輛車經過這樣子的一胎到二胎，本來借120萬，現在變成借150萬，但是這150萬是要拿100萬把他原來的前一胎代償100萬，還有50萬，但是B融資公司並沒有給他50萬，他只拿到35萬，扣了15萬的手續費，後續他要付150萬債務的分期償還，就這樣越還負債越多。請問次長有沒有聽過這樣一個目前坊間的做法？"],["黃次長世杰：我個人還沒有遇到這樣的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道這樣的運作模式？"],["黃次長世杰：這可以想像。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主秘，你知不知道人家融資公司這樣做？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：第一次聽到委員這樣說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一次聽到？","陳副處長和陳副署長呢？陳副署長，您知道民間所謂汽車超額貸，越貸越多，永遠還不完的運作嗎？"],["陳副署長秘順：今天才看到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一次嘛！"],["陳副署長秘順：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現場有沒有人之前借過的？好像沒有。","我也是花了很多時間，民眾因為超額貸，越還欠越多，我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。","好，問題來了。次長，我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種話術、透過包裝，或者是機車借30萬，他是把機車假設為一個使用權的使用借貸關係，然後拿你的資料去設定信用貸款。另外一個是越貸越多，這是用一胎、二胎的包裝。現在你們法務部的書面報告說，本席的提案只能適用於借貸契約，融資租賃不能涵蓋，那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決？如果刪除我提案當中的「借貸」兩個字，有沒有辦法針對這些狀況來解決問題？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，誠如剛才委員為我們詳細解說的，實務上巧立名目，甚至以變更契約類型的形式來完成超貸或借貸的目的，事實上樣態非常多，委員所例示的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難，所以其實我們在討論的時候，也有學者建議是不是就以各種利息之債的方式，就是凡是需要付利息的債務統統納入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：統統納入？"],["黃次長世杰：但是如果這樣子的話，也會擔心……"],["鍾委員佳濱：能解決剛剛那個狀況嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：這有兩個問題，第一個是這個打擊面會非常的廣，所以我們才說我們要函詢所有各該主管機關的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們再看下一個……"],["黃次長世杰：第二個問題是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請說。"],["黃次長世杰：即使是我們剛剛講的應付利息之債，但是剛剛我們看到委員所例示的這些情形，它的行為其實很多根本就不是用利息的方式來處理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！就是我要說的下一項……"],["黃次長世杰：所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講的，如之前委員垂詢的，可能還要加強行政的監理跟管理，才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為。因為其實剛剛我們所看到的這些例子，假設它進到法院，事實上透過司法的審理，有可能法院會把它做實質認定，或者是用第二百零六條來處理，但是我們現在看到比較困難的是，會去借這種借貸的，很多都是比較弱勢的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！"],["黃次長世杰：比較弱勢的債務人，他們沒有辦法去負擔這個司法程序的成本跟這個過程，所以民法雖然已經有規定了，但是他們用不到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛次長講了很重要的一點，很多這種借貸的受害者是因為在正常的金融體系沒有辦法借到錢，在正規的銀行看起來，他的信用不好，才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙，所以侯主秘，我們常常說銀行要普惠金融，是不是？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到，結果一個初出社會的年輕人拿機車、用了10年的機車還可以貸30萬，想都不敢想啊，但是他就拿到他所需要的錢！","次長，高額違約金你剛剛已經點到了，為了節省時間，我就繼續往下講。融資公司還會做什麼事情？我之前也揭發過，叫做無卡分期。什麼叫無卡分期？信用卡分期是信用卡用你的信用擔保，由信用卡公司向商家付錢，然後再由信用卡發卡銀行來跟消費者（客戶）收錢；無卡分期就是沒有銀行做中介。沒有中介，誰在分期？就是消費者買賣的這個買賣契約變成了借貸關係嘛！我的分期付款是我欠你錢，我分期還給你，但是消費者聽到無卡分期，以為自己就是買個東西，分期就是買賣的分期付款，就這樣而已，但是一旦你分期付款的模式被破解，譬如說你後悔了、你不要了，他說你拆了包裝不能退，但是你的債務還是存在，不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看。所以這裡面我們剛剛講到還要循行政的方法，請問「金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及揭露風險辦法」是不是銀行局所管的？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：這是我們的法律事務處，但是相關的金融機構都要符合這個規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這裡面有寫到重要內容要揭露，對不對？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：消保處副處長，金融消費者保護法是誰管的？"],["陳副處長星宏：金保法本身是金管會，但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確揭露……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯。好，它一樣說這要揭露。","接下來，根據目前我們正在審理中、即將要送二讀的洗錢防制法修正草案第五條，次長，這個洗防法是法務部主管的？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正草案第五條有講到「融資性租賃」，請問次長，我剛剛指的那兩種方式是不是都屬於融資性租賃規範的涵攝範圍內？"],["黃次長世杰：有可能；依照它的業務有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正草案第十條說要留下交易紀錄，要保存，而且其辦法要由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部及相關機關定之，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個部分要說明的是，委員所提到的、目前有提到的洗防法相關草案的內容，事實上都是現行法已有規定的條次，所以我們這邊要求它所適用的是關於洗防義務的規定，但是我們今天討論的其實是一個監理行為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！"],["黃次長世杰：所以是否在它的監理行為裡面要納入這些委員所講的相關監理和……"],["鍾委員佳濱：揭露啦！錄音錄影啦！"],["黃次長世杰：還是要由目的事業主管機關來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目的事業主管機關會是誰？我們來開始考校一下對方。融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎？主秘，是不是你們管的？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：目前不是，但是剛剛提到洗錢防制法的部分，有關洗錢防制的部分是我們會裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們看一下洗錢防制的部分……"],["主席：鍾委員，你已經超時很久了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們趕快。所以我的訴求是，希望未來在行政院的洗錢防制法當中可以要求融資公司揭露風險跟錄音、錄影，以及第七條要有指定事項、要定期查核、要會商法務部。所以我的結論是，未來是不是請行政院法務部跟金管會在洗錢防制法修正草案通過後，依照前述法條推行融資租賃業的定型化契約？剛剛所講的那些內容，如果有一個定型化契約，以後在法院訴求的時候就有所依據了，是不是請次長回去會同考量一下？"],["黃次長世杰：我想依照剛剛那個條文，還是要由目的事業主管機關會商法務部來做，我們還是要請主管機關來會商，因為剛剛金管會有提到在洗防的範圍內，他們是指定的中央目的事業主管機關沒有錯，我們再跟他們會商，看如何來處理這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝次長、謝謝副署長、副處長跟主秘，謝謝主席。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來請林楚茵委員。林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員。傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","請林思銘委員。林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154466","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154466","tool":"pyannote","id":"154466-pyannote"},"job_id":"f2x79GgMs58yrMbM","queued_at":"2024-07-03 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{\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 923.926, \"end\": 925.151, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 925.151, \"end\": 925.291, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 925.291, \"end\": 925.593, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 925.593, \"end\": 925.753, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 925.753, \"end\": 926.034, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 926.034, \"end\": 926.175, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 926.175, \"end\": 926.295, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 926.295, \"end\": 926.376, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 926.376, \"end\": 926.436, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 926.436, \"end\": 926.456, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,671 --> 00:00:20,798\n主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費\n\n2\n00:00:21,798 --> 00:00:44,721\n保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者\n\n3\n00:00:45,402 --> 00:01:06,962\n但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督。實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題。因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算。好那麼現在主席我就有請\n\n4\n00:01:11,766 --> 00:01:11,806\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n5\n00:01:34,898 --> 00:02:00,312\n市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長的不忍心還是欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司的手續費加對保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後的還了52萬\n\n6\n00:02:01,724 --> 00:02:14,276\n立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有\n\n7\n00:02:15,929 --> 00:02:41,282\n副署長,大家都會了解,我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條,修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了。但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧戀名目收費。那我來介紹一下幾個情況,請大家來瞭解。大家聽過分期付款吧?分期付款就是我消費者,我要買車,可能要一百萬,那我就跟銀行\n\n8\n00:02:42,329 --> 00:02:42,389\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n9\n00:03:09,262 --> 00:03:10,203\n蓬佳濱等25人擬具\n\n10\n00:03:34,602 --> 00:03:56,060\n沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到那個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳柱仁還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生\n\n11\n00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:05,422\n副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼做嗎?副處長。\n\n12\n00:04:16,739 --> 00:04:16,759\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n13\n00:04:34,249 --> 00:04:59,606\n建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權\n\n14\n00:05:00,816 --> 00:05:19,153\n但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款\n\n15\n00:05:22,265 --> 00:05:41,112\n那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息\n\n16\n00:05:41,872 --> 00:06:03,500\n一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子\n\n17\n00:06:04,941 --> 00:06:24,493\n徐甲造了一個使用權的購買然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬\n\n18\n00:06:25,489 --> 00:06:25,609\n二）委員鍾佳濱\n\n19\n00:06:39,526 --> 00:07:03,101\n買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬\n\n20\n00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:32,555\n一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬V融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法\n\n21\n00:07:33,444 --> 00:07:33,464\n鍾佳濱\n\n22\n00:07:49,876 --> 00:08:12,947\n一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。\n\n23\n00:08:15,273 --> 00:08:32,744\n市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後把你去設定信用貸款\n\n24\n00:08:33,735 --> 00:08:54,033\n另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題\n\n25\n00:08:56,739 --> 00:09:19,576\n跟委員報告陳儒剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難\n\n26\n00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:20,336\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n27\n00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:58,344\n第二個問題是說如果這個即使我們剛剛講的應付利息是在但是剛剛我們看到委員所歷史的這些情形很多他的行為其實根本就不是用利息的方式來處理是的\n\n28\n00:09:59,105 --> 00:10:15,751\n所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這個例子假設他進到法院\n\n29\n00:10:16,371 --> 00:10:39,221\n事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把它做實質認定或者是用206條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到\n\n30\n00:10:41,221 --> 00:11:09,048\n市長你講的很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個\n\n31\n00:11:09,833 --> 00:11:13,580\n出租社會沒多久的半年輕人他拿機車欸機車啊用過10年的機車還可以帶30萬\n\n32\n00:11:17,591 --> 00:11:17,731\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n33\n00:11:46,348 --> 00:11:46,368\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n34\n00:12:11,010 --> 00:12:38,796\n一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的\n\n35\n00:12:40,899 --> 00:13:07,830\n這是我們那個法律事務署,但我們相關的資料沒有進入到規定。好,那麼這裡面有寫到重要內容要介入,對不對?金融消費者保護法,那個消保處的副處長,這個是誰管的?金保法本身是金管會,但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確。所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯,好。一樣他說這裡要介入,再往下看。\n\n36\n00:13:08,755 --> 00:13:28,531\n那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們法務部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內\n\n37\n00:13:32,213 --> 00:13:37,003\n那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?\n\n38\n00:13:39,122 --> 00:13:39,142\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n39\n00:14:08,321 --> 00:14:35,402\n還是要有目的事業主管好目的事業主管機關會是誰我們來開始考較一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎主任秘密是不是你們管的目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分明的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司\n\n40\n00:14:35,942 --> 00:14:36,082\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n41\n00:14:56,704 --> 00:15:22,283\n剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題\n\n42\n00:15:23,926 --> 00:15:26,456\n謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘,謝謝。謝謝主席。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5671\t20798\t主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費\n21798\t44721\t保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者\n45402\t66962\t但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督。實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題。因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算。好那麼現在主席我就有請\n71766\t71806\t議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n94898\t120312\t市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長的不忍心還是欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司的手續費加對保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後的還了52萬\n121724\t134276\t立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有\n135929\t161282\t副署長,大家都會了解,我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條,修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了。但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧戀名目收費。那我來介紹一下幾個情況,請大家來瞭解。大家聽過分期付款吧?分期付款就是我消費者,我要買車,可能要一百萬,那我就跟銀行\n162329\t162389\t議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n189262\t190203\t蓬佳濱等25人擬具\n214602\t236060\t沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到那個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳柱仁還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生\n244160\t245422\t副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼做嗎?副處長。\n256739\t256759\t議員鍾佳濱\n274249\t299606\t建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權\n300816\t319153\t但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款\n322265\t341112\t那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息\n341872\t363500\t一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子\n364941\t384493\t徐甲造了一個使用權的購買然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬\n385489\t385609\t二）委員鍾佳濱\n399526\t423101\t買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬\n424670\t452555\t一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬V融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法\n453444\t453464\t鍾佳濱\n469876\t492947\t一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。\n495273\t512744\t市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後把你去設定信用貸款\n513735\t534033\t另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題\n536739\t559576\t跟委員報告陳儒剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難\n560316\t560336\t議員鍾佳濱\n585670\t598344\t第二個問題是說如果這個即使我們剛剛講的應付利息是在但是剛剛我們看到委員所歷史的這些情形很多他的行為其實根本就不是用利息的方式來處理是的\n599105\t615751\t所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這個例子假設他進到法院\n616371\t639221\t事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把它做實質認定或者是用206條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到\n641221\t669048\t市長你講的很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個\n669833\t673580\t出租社會沒多久的半年輕人他拿機車欸機車啊用過10年的機車還可以帶30萬\n677591\t677731\t議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n706348\t706368\t議員鍾佳濱\n731010\t758796\t一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的\n760899\t787830\t這是我們那個法律事務署,但我們相關的資料沒有進入到規定。好,那麼這裡面有寫到重要內容要介入,對不對?金融消費者保護法,那個消保處的副處長,這個是誰管的?金保法本身是金管會,但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確。所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯,好。一樣他說這裡要介入,再往下看。\n788755\t808531\t那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們法務部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內\n812213\t817003\t那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?\n819122\t819142\t議員鍾佳濱\n848321\t875402\t還是要有目的事業主管好目的事業主管機關會是誰我們來開始考較一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎主任秘密是不是你們管的目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分明的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司\n875942\t876082\t議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n896704\t922283\t剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題\n923926\t926456\t謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘,謝謝。謝謝主席。\n","txt":"主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費\n保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者\n但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督。實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題。因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算。好那麼現在主席我就有請\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長的不忍心還是欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司的手續費加對保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後的還了52萬\n立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有\n副署長,大家都會了解,我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條,修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了。但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧戀名目收費。那我來介紹一下幾個情況,請大家來瞭解。大家聽過分期付款吧?分期付款就是我消費者,我要買車,可能要一百萬,那我就跟銀行\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n蓬佳濱等25人擬具\n沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到那個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳柱仁還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生\n副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼做嗎?副處長。\n議員鍾佳濱\n建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權\n但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款\n那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息\n一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子\n徐甲造了一個使用權的購買然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬\n二）委員鍾佳濱\n買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬\n一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬V融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法\n鍾佳濱\n一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。\n市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後把你去設定信用貸款\n另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題\n跟委員報告陳儒剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難\n議員鍾佳濱\n第二個問題是說如果這個即使我們剛剛講的應付利息是在但是剛剛我們看到委員所歷史的這些情形很多他的行為其實根本就不是用利息的方式來處理是的\n所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這個例子假設他進到法院\n事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把它做實質認定或者是用206條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到\n市長你講的很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個\n出租社會沒多久的半年輕人他拿機車欸機車啊用過10年的機車還可以帶30萬\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n議員鍾佳濱\n一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的\n這是我們那個法律事務署,但我們相關的資料沒有進入到規定。好,那麼這裡面有寫到重要內容要介入,對不對?金融消費者保護法,那個消保處的副處長,這個是誰管的?金保法本身是金管會,但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確。所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯,好。一樣他說這裡要介入,再往下看。\n那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們法務部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內\n那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?\n議員鍾佳濱\n還是要有目的事業主管好目的事業主管機關會是誰我們來開始考較一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎主任秘密是不是你們管的目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分明的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題\n謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘,謝謝。謝謝主席。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.671 --> 00:20.798\n主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費\n\n00:21.798 --> 00:44.721\n保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者\n\n00:45.402 --> 01:06.962\n但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督。實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題。因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算。好那麼現在主席我就有請\n\n01:11.766 --> 01:11.806\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n01:34.898 --> 02:00.312\n市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長的不忍心還是欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司的手續費加對保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後的還了52萬\n\n02:01.724 --> 02:14.276\n立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有\n\n02:15.929 --> 02:41.282\n副署長,大家都會了解,我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條,修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了。但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧戀名目收費。那我來介紹一下幾個情況,請大家來瞭解。大家聽過分期付款吧?分期付款就是我消費者,我要買車,可能要一百萬,那我就跟銀行\n\n02:42.329 --> 02:42.389\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n03:09.262 --> 03:10.203\n蓬佳濱等25人擬具\n\n03:34.602 --> 03:56.060\n沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到那個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳柱仁還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生\n\n04:04.160 --> 04:05.422\n副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼做嗎?副處長。\n\n04:16.739 --> 04:16.759\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n04:34.249 --> 04:59.606\n建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權\n\n05:00.816 --> 05:19.153\n但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款\n\n05:22.265 --> 05:41.112\n那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息\n\n05:41.872 --> 06:03.500\n一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子\n\n06:04.941 --> 06:24.493\n徐甲造了一個使用權的購買然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬\n\n06:25.489 --> 06:25.609\n二）委員鍾佳濱\n\n06:39.526 --> 07:03.101\n買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬\n\n07:04.670 --> 07:32.555\n一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬V融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法\n\n07:33.444 --> 07:33.464\n鍾佳濱\n\n07:49.876 --> 08:12.947\n一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。\n\n08:15.273 --> 08:32.744\n市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後把你去設定信用貸款\n\n08:33.735 --> 08:54.033\n另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題\n\n08:56.739 --> 09:19.576\n跟委員報告陳儒剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難\n\n09:20.316 --> 09:20.336\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n09:45.670 --> 09:58.344\n第二個問題是說如果這個即使我們剛剛講的應付利息是在但是剛剛我們看到委員所歷史的這些情形很多他的行為其實根本就不是用利息的方式來處理是的\n\n09:59.105 --> 10:15.751\n所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這個例子假設他進到法院\n\n10:16.371 --> 10:39.221\n事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把它做實質認定或者是用206條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到\n\n10:41.221 --> 11:09.048\n市長你講的很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個\n\n11:09.833 --> 11:13.580\n出租社會沒多久的半年輕人他拿機車欸機車啊用過10年的機車還可以帶30萬\n\n11:17.591 --> 11:17.731\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n11:46.348 --> 11:46.368\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n12:11.010 --> 12:38.796\n一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的\n\n12:40.899 --> 13:07.830\n這是我們那個法律事務署,但我們相關的資料沒有進入到規定。好,那麼這裡面有寫到重要內容要介入,對不對?金融消費者保護法,那個消保處的副處長,這個是誰管的?金保法本身是金管會,但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確。所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯,好。一樣他說這裡要介入,再往下看。\n\n13:08.755 --> 13:28.531\n那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們法務部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內\n\n13:32.213 --> 13:37.003\n那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?\n\n13:39.122 --> 13:39.142\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n14:08.321 --> 14:35.402\n還是要有目的事業主管好目的事業主管機關會是誰我們來開始考較一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎主任秘密是不是你們管的目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分明的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司\n\n14:35.942 --> 14:36.082\n議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱\n\n14:56.704 --> 15:22.283\n剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題\n\n15:23.926 --> 15:26.456\n謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘,謝謝。謝謝主席。\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.671,"end":20.798,"text":"主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費"},{"start":21.798,"end":44.721,"text":"保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者"},{"start":45.402,"end":66.962,"text":"但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督。實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題。因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算。好那麼現在主席我就有請"},{"start":71.766,"end":71.806,"text":"議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":94.898,"end":120.312,"text":"市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長的不忍心還是欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司的手續費加對保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後的還了52萬"},{"start":121.724,"end":134.276,"text":"立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有"},{"start":135.929,"end":161.282,"text":"副署長,大家都會了解,我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條,修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了。但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧戀名目收費。那我來介紹一下幾個情況,請大家來瞭解。大家聽過分期付款吧?分期付款就是我消費者,我要買車,可能要一百萬,那我就跟銀行"},{"start":162.329,"end":162.389,"text":"議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":189.262,"end":190.203,"text":"蓬佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":214.602,"end":236.06,"text":"沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到那個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳柱仁還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生"},{"start":244.16,"end":245.422,"text":"副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼做嗎?副處長。"},{"start":256.739,"end":256.759,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":274.249,"end":299.606,"text":"建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權"},{"start":300.816,"end":319.153,"text":"但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款"},{"start":322.265,"end":341.112,"text":"那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息"},{"start":341.872,"end":363.5,"text":"一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子"},{"start":364.941,"end":384.493,"text":"徐甲造了一個使用權的購買然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬"},{"start":385.489,"end":385.609,"text":"二）委員鍾佳濱"},{"start":399.526,"end":423.101,"text":"買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬"},{"start":424.67,"end":452.555,"text":"一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬V融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法"},{"start":453.444,"end":453.464,"text":"鍾佳濱"},{"start":469.876,"end":492.947,"text":"一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。"},{"start":495.273,"end":512.744,"text":"市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後把你去設定信用貸款"},{"start":513.735,"end":534.033,"text":"另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題"},{"start":536.739,"end":559.576,"text":"跟委員報告陳儒剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難"},{"start":560.316,"end":560.336,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":585.67,"end":598.344,"text":"第二個問題是說如果這個即使我們剛剛講的應付利息是在但是剛剛我們看到委員所歷史的這些情形很多他的行為其實根本就不是用利息的方式來處理是的"},{"start":599.105,"end":615.751,"text":"所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這個例子假設他進到法院"},{"start":616.371,"end":639.221,"text":"事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把它做實質認定或者是用206條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到"},{"start":641.221,"end":669.048,"text":"市長你講的很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個"},{"start":669.833,"end":673.58,"text":"出租社會沒多久的半年輕人他拿機車欸機車啊用過10年的機車還可以帶30萬"},{"start":677.591,"end":677.731,"text":"議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":706.348,"end":706.368,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":731.01,"end":758.796,"text":"一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的"},{"start":760.899,"end":787.83,"text":"這是我們那個法律事務署,但我們相關的資料沒有進入到規定。好,那麼這裡面有寫到重要內容要介入,對不對?金融消費者保護法,那個消保處的副處長,這個是誰管的?金保法本身是金管會,但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確。所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯,好。一樣他說這裡要介入,再往下看。"},{"start":788.755,"end":808.531,"text":"那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們法務部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內"},{"start":812.213,"end":817.003,"text":"那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?"},{"start":819.122,"end":819.142,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":848.321,"end":875.402,"text":"還是要有目的事業主管好目的事業主管機關會是誰我們來開始考較一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎主任秘密是不是你們管的目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分明的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司"},{"start":875.942,"end":876.082,"text":"議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":896.704,"end":922.283,"text":"剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題"},{"start":923.926,"end":926.456,"text":"謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘,謝謝。謝謝主席。"}]}}}}