{"id":154493,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdbc05d182c591d7ed266d74c0b9571b08e8e3eb0bf88d021cce6dc580683089465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:08:00 - 11:22:47","影片長度":"00:14:47","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:08:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:22:47+08:00","duration":887,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":505,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長，我們過去是立法院同事，過去就對於您的法學專業非常敬仰，很期待跟您的對話。"],["黃次長世杰：不敢。"],["吳委員思瑤：民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關，我們昨天也收到了7月10號憲法法庭即將召開，庭期已定，也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天──6月28日就已經受理，所以從受理，然後到憲法法庭開會的庭期已定，我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速地對於國會擴權法案要做出法規範的憲法法庭審議。","非常遺憾，今天上午在樓下的交通委員會有四個大違法，他們硬要在空窗期來大幹一場，就是成立了鏡電視的調查小組，而這個調查小組已經鬧了三胞，第一個是原本交通委員會3月11日就成立一個調閱小組，第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法及法制委員會的同意，自己把我們聯席進去了，然後我說它有四個違反，就是第一個它違反立法院各委員會組織法第十三條，如果要進行聯席委員會，要經過院會交付，或者是由召委提請院會決定，欸，它都沒有！陳雪生召委在主持的時候，他也說，對，我沒有！可是他就是要硬幹。第二個，他也違反現在雖然是惡法、擴權的法案，但是現行通過的立法院職權行使法第四十六條之二，也很清楚地說，偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛！所以也違反自己剛通過的法律。當然第三個大違反就是，我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱召委、不尊重我們司法及法制委員會，召委，他好像沒有問過您對不對？"],["主席：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：都沒有嘛！我是司法及法制委員會的委員，我還覺得怪，為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們、沒有告知我們？原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心鏡電視、長期鎖定鏡電視，以查弊之名來進行政治肅殺的手段，所以硬要把司法及法制委員會聯席進去。您過去也在立法院，如果跟媒體相關要聯席會找到司法及法制委員會不是不行，那有點怪，那公平會的事務，經濟委員會是不是要聯席？教育及文化委員會，文化部跟NCC相關掌理內容的部分也有相關，那為什麼不是聯席教育及文化委員會跟經濟委員會，獨選司法及法制委員會？就是天選之人、天選之案、就是先射箭再畫靶，讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來進行他所要的查弊或調查，所以對於這樣的一個處理，我是認為在大法官的釋憲或是暫時處分還沒有做出裁定之前，立法院都應當是自制的。次長同意我的觀點嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我們尊重立法院的職權行使，也尊重委員的意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那下面要就教於您，因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說，大法官是綠友友，釋憲案要迴避。我是就法條跟您討論，請問您對於大法官迴避的看法是什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行，這個是由司法院主管的事。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我懂。如果依國民黨的邏輯，只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠友友的話，那完全無視於大法官的法學專業，他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外，陳水扁的任期，大法官釋憲做出135個案子；馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案；蔡英文總統八年任內做出76個釋憲案。如果依國民黨的邏輯，這些都是應迴避而未迴避，所以這完全不通。","那您剛剛說的大法官的迴避條款，您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第九條、第十條，也就是憲法訴訟法第二章第二節整個對大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個迴避的條款，基本上是基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突，第九條是關於自行迴避，第十條是關於聲請迴避，聲請迴避的話，也需要有聲請人來向憲法法庭做聲請。我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避之規定精神是類同、一致的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以已經有清楚的規範，對於大法官的、對於人、對於事、對於案件的迴避，如果現在在野黨要無限上綱，把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案，就推為、導向它可能做出某些可能的裁決，我認為這是對於憲法不敬、對於大法官不敬。","再來，也是要就教於您喔！我們黃國昌委員一直說，擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言詞辯論，是這樣嗎？我想您對於憲法法庭、對於司法院的運作，當然你現在是法務部的次長，今天是跟您做一下討論。我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官，以憲法訴訟法第二十五條很清楚的規定，在第五章及第六章明定的案件，其判決應當要有言詞辯論。除了第五章及第六章的案件以外，判決得不經言詞辯論。換言之，黃國昌委員說，國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言詞辯論，我們沒有預設立場，我們尊重大法官的決定，但是就法條論法條，您comment一下吧！"],["黃次長世杰：我想法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了，事實上，實務上我們也看到，憲法法庭在憲法訴訟法施行之後，也是朝向盡可能地廣納各方意見，然後以舉行言詞辯論的方式為原則；當然憲法訴訟法有明定應行言詞辯論的案件跟得不經言詞辯論來審理的案件，因為憲法法庭所處理的大概都是法律問題為多，像我們最高法院其實也是得行言詞辯論，但是也不見得每個案子都一定要透過言詞辯論的方式來做，這個是一個法理。我們看到憲法法院現在也已經定了庭期，我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議，我相信大法官、憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定獨立來行使職權。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，我在這裡就教於您的就是，我認為不管是法務部主管的檢察系統，或是司法院主管的法院系統，或者是大法官憲法法庭，都應當避免用政治立場去干預。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：避免去對大法官或是各級的法官、檢察官們下指導棋，這是從政者應當要自制、要非常清楚的一個分際，憲法機關本於互相平等、尊重、平等相維的原則。","但同樣的也要就教於您，您是法學專業，這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法，國民黨智庫昨天說，實體從舊，程序從新，所以提高了罷免的門檻，修法如果通過的話，本屆就可以開始適用，甚至現在已經進行中的謝國樑的案子就可以適用。請問法務部，您這邊的法律見解如何？"],["黃次長世杰：我想具體個案的適用還是由各該主管機關去決定，但是在法理上，中央法規標準法第十八條的規定，它其實是從新從優。也就是說，其實所謂的實體或程序的界限也未必可以一刀兩斷。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["黃次長世杰：特別是關於罷免權利的行使……"],["吳委員思瑤：對人民的權利……"],["黃次長世杰：是公民的政治權利，所以關於它的相關規定，因為我們現在還不知道將來選罷法會怎麼修啦！是不是可以單純地以程序性的規定來適用，事實上要看最後修法的結果。那麼我想要綜合來判斷，特別是要提醒，就這一個法律適用上，一定要特別注意，要保障人民權利的行使，這個部分如果有涉及到人民權利行使實質內容的時候，或許就不宜用單純的程序規定來實施……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，謝謝次長的說明，您的看法跟我一致。所謂實體從舊，程序從新，在我看來，選罷法要提高罷免門檻也好，或者是要增加連署的難度也好，這都涉及人民權利的行使，這都是實體；而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥，然後去凌駕於保障人民權利，我認為這是完全不通的。所以您剛剛的解釋，不管是中央法規標準法第十八條從新從優之法理，都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋、對於人民權利的保障，而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高，任何一個法律修法的基本原則，也就是ABC對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是，這是我們一貫的立場。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝！再給我一點點時間。今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分，我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手。當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目、規避民法利率上限，幾位委員不管是開記者會或是提出具體的修法，在2020年我們已經修法調降了，約定利率從百分之二十降到百分之十六，就是為了保障經濟弱勢者；但是對於融資公司透過另外的方式──各類的規費、手續費，來超過法定利率的漏洞，這件事情確實需要去解決。所以委員提案了，不好意思！我剛剛沒有在會議上，因為我有另外一個質詢。法務部對法的意見是認為還要再周延討論，但如果不修這個法，有什麼樣有效的手段可以來避免、杜絕？如果不修法。"],["黃次長世杰：今天稍早的說明跟委員的垂詢，我們都有提到，事實上修這個法最多只是解決一小部分的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["黃次長世杰：另外，配套措施還是應該要加強對於這一些金融、準金融的行為來做監理……"],["吳委員思瑤：強化它的監理。"],["黃次長世杰：強化它的監理，因為剛剛稍早我們的召委也有提示了很多具體的案例，這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關，因為它會巧立各種名目……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我懂。"],["黃次長世杰：用不同的契約型態，甚至是複合的契約型態，同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係，這樣情形底下，是不是我們修了這一條之後，或許我們能夠……"],["吳委員思瑤：可能會掛一漏萬。"],["黃次長世杰：第一個，或許能夠解決最單純高利貸的這種型態，但是，我們也要注意到民法會適用在所有的法律行為上面。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，我理解。"],["黃次長世杰：如果說一些其他正當、合法的，這個也會被影響到，我們還是有必要來徵詢……"],["吳委員思瑤：其他相關機關的意見？"],["黃次長世杰：各界的意見之後，再把它訂定的更周延會比較好。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法，所以是經濟部在管轄，確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠，這是本席比較關切的核心。我們來看看國際，這個是行政院消保處還有外交部提供的資料，我去綜整出來的，國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數，日本的金融廳、韓國金融管理委員會、新加坡、加拿大、法國、盧森堡、荷蘭、德國、英國、澳洲等，都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項。當然另外一類，像美國、義大利、南非、歐盟等是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理。所以我個人是認為，如果要更全面的去解決融資公司很多巧立名目其他的作為的話，當然修法是一個可以思考的，但是對於融資公司管理，是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章，更明確的從源頭來管制，這是我的觀點啦！就教於次長。"],["黃次長世杰：是，因為這個不是本部所主管。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是您的業務。"],["黃次長世杰：我們會尊重相關主管機關，還有行政院的政策決定，但如果大院要以立法的形式來解決這個問題，我們也尊重，我們在相關法制過程，會本於職責……"],["吳委員思瑤：你們會有對案嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：來提供相關的法制建議。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們會有對案嗎？如果是要修民法？"],["黃次長世杰：這個不是修民法的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是，我是說剛剛這個題目的話。"],["黃次長世杰：我們剛剛有說明，因為我們也在內部有跟相關的專家學者進行討論過了，我們也把我們目前的方向跟委員所提類似的方向，一起來函詢各該主管機關，就各行各業的意見，等他們回函之後，我們會綜整……"],["吳委員思瑤：你們再做出一個……"],["黃次長世杰：看是不是能夠提出一個完整的規定。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我理解，我們希望後續有更長期的時間來匯聚更高的共識，謝謝次長、謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝黃次長。","目前所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員林思銘、翁曉玲所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154493","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154493","tool":"pyannote","id":"154493-pyannote"},"job_id":"F6DJSu5aJvVetcAf","queued_at":"2024-07-03 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\"text\": \"好 那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好 下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好 我懂下一頁如果說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 218.646, \"end\": 219.026, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 219.026, \"end\": 219.186, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 219.186, \"end\": 219.346, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 219.346, \"end\": 219.446, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 219.446, \"end\": 219.586, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 219.586, \"end\": 219.746, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 219.746, \"end\": 219.947, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 219.947, \"end\": 220.147, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 220.147, \"end\": 220.367, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 220.367, \"end\": 221.007, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 221.007, \"end\": 221.567, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"end\": 263.76, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 266.307, \"end\": 292.118, \"text\": \"馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 266.307, \"end\": 266.407, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 266.407, \"end\": 266.567, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 266.567, \"end\": 266.847, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 266.847, \"end\": 266.987, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 266.987, \"end\": 268.108, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 268.108, \"end\": 268.828, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"蔡\", \"start\": 268.828, \"end\": 268.968, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 268.968, \"end\": 269.088, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 269.088, 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{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 308.124, \"end\": 308.224, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 308.224, \"end\": 308.604, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"迴\"}, {\"word\": \"避\", \"start\": 308.604, \"end\": 308.724, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 308.724, \"end\": 308.844, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 308.844, \"end\": 309.005, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 309.005, \"end\": 309.165, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 309.165, \"end\": 309.305, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 309.305, \"end\": 309.465, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 309.465, \"end\": 309.865, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 309.865, \"end\": 310.846, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 310.846, \"end\": 311.227, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 311.227, \"end\": 311.387, 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0.97}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 445.014, \"end\": 445.475, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 445.475, \"end\": 445.575, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"遲\"}, {\"word\": \"辯\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 445.575, \"end\": 445.755, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 445.755, \"end\": 445.895, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 445.895, \"end\": 446.235, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 446.235, \"end\": 446.415, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 446.415, \"end\": 446.875, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 446.875, \"end\": 446.995, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 446.995, \"end\": 447.636, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 447.636, \"end\": 447.816, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 447.816, \"end\": 447.996, 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450.837, \"end\": 451.897, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 451.897, \"end\": 452.237, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 452.237, \"end\": 452.437, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 452.437, \"end\": 452.737, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 452.737, \"end\": 453.017, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 453.017, \"end\": 454.038, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 454.038, \"end\": 454.278, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 454.278, \"end\": 454.378, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 454.378, \"end\": 454.638, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 454.638, \"end\": 455.238, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 455.238, \"end\": 455.318, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 455.318, \"end\": 455.498, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 455.498, \"end\": 455.618, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 455.618, \"end\": 455.738, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 455.738, \"end\": 455.878, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 455.878, \"end\": 457.259, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 457.259, \"end\": 457.419, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 457.419, \"end\": 457.559, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 457.559, \"end\": 457.959, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 457.959, \"end\": 458.119, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 458.119, \"end\": 458.679, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 458.679, \"end\": 459.059, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 459.059, \"end\": 459.179, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 459.179, \"end\": 459.439, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 459.439, \"end\": 459.559, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 459.559, \"end\": 459.779, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 459.779, \"end\": 459.959, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 459.959, \"end\": 460.6, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"奪\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 460.6, \"end\": 460.98, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 460.98, \"end\": 461.16, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 461.16, \"end\": 462.22, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 462.22, \"end\": 462.36, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 462.36, \"end\": 462.94, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 462.94, \"end\": 463.12, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 463.12, \"end\": 463.38, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 463.38, \"end\": 463.58, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 463.58, \"end\": 463.84, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 463.84, \"end\": 464.161, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 464.161, \"end\": 464.841, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 464.841, \"end\": 465.601, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 465.601, \"end\": 465.741, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 465.741, \"end\": 465.921, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 465.921, \"end\": 466.081, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 466.081, \"end\": 466.421, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 466.421, \"end\": 466.621, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 466.621, \"end\": 466.921, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 466.921, \"end\": 467.181, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 467.181, \"end\": 467.722, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 467.722, \"end\": 467.962, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 467.962, \"end\": 468.482, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 468.482, \"end\": 468.642, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 468.642, \"end\": 468.802, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 468.802, \"end\": 468.962, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 468.962, \"end\": 469.062, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 469.062, \"end\": 469.242, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 469.242, \"end\": 469.442, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 469.442, \"end\": 469.662, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 469.662, \"end\": 469.842, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 469.842, \"end\": 469.982, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"院\", 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\"end\": 473.663, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 473.663, \"end\": 473.883, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 473.883, \"end\": 474.183, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 474.183, \"end\": 474.484, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 474.484, \"end\": 474.744, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 474.744, \"end\": 475.204, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 475.204, \"end\": 475.444, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"干\", \"start\": 475.444, \"end\": 475.464, \"score\": 0.556}, {\"word\": \"預\"}]}, {\"start\": 476.284, \"end\": 477.886, \"text\": \"但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 476.284, \"end\": 476.504, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 476.504, \"end\": 476.685, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 476.685, \"end\": 476.725, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 476.725, \"end\": 476.925, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 881.776, \"end\": 881.796, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 881.796, \"end\": 881.816, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,434 --> 00:00:34,412\n謝謝主席,有請次長。好,請黃次長。次長,我們過去是立法院同事,過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰,那很期待跟您的對話。民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關。那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開\n\n2\n00:00:36,789 --> 00:01:04,475\n那停期已定那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會\n\n3\n00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:30,188\n那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們\n\n4\n00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:49,372\n這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹\n\n5\n00:01:52,094 --> 00:02:18,839\n第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以也違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、趙偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會趙偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎\n\n6\n00:02:19,739 --> 00:02:25,897\n所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們\n\n7\n00:02:27,196 --> 00:02:51,435\n原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電事長期鎖定禁電事以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪\n\n8\n00:02:52,496 --> 00:03:14,116\n公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來\n\n9\n00:03:16,198 --> 00:03:18,519\n我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見\n\n10\n00:03:38,646 --> 00:04:03,617\n好那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好我懂下一頁如果說\n\n11\n00:04:06,121 --> 00:04:23,760\n以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子\n\n12\n00:04:26,307 --> 00:04:52,118\n馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎\n\n13\n00:04:53,530 --> 00:05:11,967\n我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請\n\n14\n00:05:12,868 --> 00:05:39,978\n那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在在野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬\n\n15\n00:05:42,459 --> 00:06:01,615\n對於大法官不敬。那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎?下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論\n\n16\n00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:22,605\n我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說\n\n17\n00:06:27,688 --> 00:06:43,884\n國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了\n\n18\n00:06:44,685 --> 00:06:44,885\n委員吳思瑤\n\n19\n00:07:02,444 --> 00:07:28,016\n當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件。那麼因為這個憲法法庭的所處理的大概都是法律問題為多。那所以呢這個像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是呢也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做。那麼這個是一個法理啦。\n\n20\n00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:55,464\n我們看到憲法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使職權我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預\n\n21\n00:07:56,284 --> 00:07:57,886\n但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。\n\n22\n00:08:18,342 --> 00:08:39,214\n這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何\n\n23\n00:08:40,457 --> 00:08:40,597\n關於罷免\n\n24\n00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:04,520\n．吳思瑤議員\n\n25\n00:09:29,548 --> 00:09:33,110\n市長的說明您的看法跟我一致所謂實體重修程序重新在我看來選辦法要提高罷免門檻也好或者是要增加聯署的難度也好這都涉及人民權利的行使這都是實體呀\n\n26\n00:09:53,118 --> 00:10:20,231\n而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥然後去凌駕於保障人民權利我認為這是完全不通的所以您剛剛的解釋不管是中央法規標準法第18條重新從優之法例都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋對於人民權利的保障而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高任何一個法律修法的基本原則也就是ABC對不對\n\n27\n00:10:20,991 --> 00:10:42,419\n是這是我們一貫的理想好謝謝那讓我一點點時間下一頁今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下一頁那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁\n\n28\n00:10:43,119 --> 00:10:47,001\n．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出\n\n29\n00:11:05,828 --> 00:11:17,391\n所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要在周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸\n\n30\n00:11:25,066 --> 00:11:25,086\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n31\n00:11:41,181 --> 00:12:07,021\n另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融受準金融的行為來做這個監理,強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委又提示了很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係\n\n32\n00:12:08,022 --> 00:12:08,042\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n33\n00:12:35,815 --> 00:13:02,236\n因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的\n\n34\n00:13:04,358 --> 00:13:29,454\n國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁\n\n35\n00:13:30,234 --> 00:13:53,810\n所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長\n\n36\n00:13:54,711 --> 00:13:57,334\n你們會有對案嗎?如果是要修民法?\n\n37\n00:14:16,495 --> 00:14:39,332\n這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定\n\n38\n00:14:40,072 --> 00:14:41,816\n我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙聚更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝教委,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7434\t34412\t謝謝主席,有請次長。好,請黃次長。次長,我們過去是立法院同事,過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰,那很期待跟您的對話。民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關。那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開\n36789\t64475\t那停期已定那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會\n65700\t90188\t那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們\n92000\t109372\t這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹\n112094\t138839\t第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以也違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、趙偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會趙偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎\n139739\t145897\t所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們\n147196\t171435\t原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電事長期鎖定禁電事以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪\n172496\t194116\t公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來\n196198\t198519\t我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見\n218646\t243617\t好 那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好 下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好 我懂下一頁如果說\n246121\t263760\t以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子\n266307\t292118\t馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎\n293530\t311967\t我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請\n312868\t339978\t那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在在野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬\n342459\t361615\t對於大法官不敬。那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎?下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論\n362836\t382605\t我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說\n387688\t403884\t國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了\n404685\t404885\t委員吳思瑤\n422444\t448016\t當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件。那麼因為這個憲法法庭的所處理的大概都是法律問題為多。那所以呢這個像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是呢也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做。那麼這個是一個法理啦。\n449116\t475464\t我們看到憲法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使職權我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預\n476284\t477886\t但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。\n498342\t519214\t這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何\n520457\t520597\t關於罷免\n544500\t544520\t．吳思瑤議員\n569548\t573110\t市長的說明您的看法跟我一致所謂實體重修程序重新在我看來選辦法要提高罷免門檻也好或者是要增加聯署的難度也好這都涉及人民權利的行使這都是實體呀\n593118\t620231\t而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥然後去凌駕於保障人民權利我認為這是完全不通的所以您剛剛的解釋不管是中央法規標準法第18條重新從優之法例都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋對於人民權利的保障而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高任何一個法律修法的基本原則也就是ABC 對不對\n620991\t642419\t是這是我們一貫的理想好謝謝那讓我一點點時間下一頁今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下一頁那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁\n643119\t647001\t．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出\n665828\t677391\t所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要在周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸\n685066\t685086\t議員鍾佳濱\n701181\t727021\t另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融受準金融的行為來做這個監理,強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委又提示了很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係\n728022\t728042\t議員鍾佳濱\n755815\t782236\t因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的\n784358\t809454\t國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁\n810234\t833810\t所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長\n834711\t837334\t你們會有對案嗎?如果是要修民法?\n856495\t879332\t這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定\n880072\t881816\t我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙聚更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝教委,謝謝。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請次長。好,請黃次長。次長,我們過去是立法院同事,過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰,那很期待跟您的對話。民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關。那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開\n那停期已定那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會\n那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們\n這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹\n第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以也違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、趙偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會趙偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎\n所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們\n原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電事長期鎖定禁電事以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪\n公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來\n我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見\n好 那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好 下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好 我懂下一頁如果說\n以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子\n馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎\n我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請\n那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在在野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬\n對於大法官不敬。那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎?下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論\n我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說\n國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了\n委員吳思瑤\n當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件。那麼因為這個憲法法庭的所處理的大概都是法律問題為多。那所以呢這個像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是呢也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做。那麼這個是一個法理啦。\n我們看到憲法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使職權我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預\n但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。\n這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何\n關於罷免\n．吳思瑤議員\n市長的說明您的看法跟我一致所謂實體重修程序重新在我看來選辦法要提高罷免門檻也好或者是要增加聯署的難度也好這都涉及人民權利的行使這都是實體呀\n而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥然後去凌駕於保障人民權利我認為這是完全不通的所以您剛剛的解釋不管是中央法規標準法第18條重新從優之法例都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋對於人民權利的保障而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高任何一個法律修法的基本原則也就是ABC 對不對\n是這是我們一貫的理想好謝謝那讓我一點點時間下一頁今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下一頁那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁\n．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出\n所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要在周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸\n議員鍾佳濱\n另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融受準金融的行為來做這個監理,強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委又提示了很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係\n議員鍾佳濱\n因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的\n國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁\n所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長\n你們會有對案嗎?如果是要修民法?\n這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定\n我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙聚更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝教委,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.434 --> 00:34.412\n謝謝主席,有請次長。好,請黃次長。次長,我們過去是立法院同事,過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰,那很期待跟您的對話。民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關。那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開\n\n00:36.789 --> 01:04.475\n那停期已定那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會\n\n01:05.700 --> 01:30.188\n那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們\n\n01:32.000 --> 01:49.372\n這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹\n\n01:52.094 --> 02:18.839\n第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以也違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、趙偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會趙偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎\n\n02:19.739 --> 02:25.897\n所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們\n\n02:27.196 --> 02:51.435\n原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電事長期鎖定禁電事以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪\n\n02:52.496 --> 03:14.116\n公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來\n\n03:16.198 --> 03:18.519\n我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見\n\n03:38.646 --> 04:03.617\n好那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好我懂下一頁如果說\n\n04:06.121 --> 04:23.760\n以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子\n\n04:26.307 --> 04:52.118\n馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎\n\n04:53.530 --> 05:11.967\n我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請\n\n05:12.868 --> 05:39.978\n那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在在野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬\n\n05:42.459 --> 06:01.615\n對於大法官不敬。那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎?下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論\n\n06:02.836 --> 06:22.605\n我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說\n\n06:27.688 --> 06:43.884\n國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了\n\n06:44.685 --> 06:44.885\n委員吳思瑤\n\n07:02.444 --> 07:28.016\n當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件。那麼因為這個憲法法庭的所處理的大概都是法律問題為多。那所以呢這個像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是呢也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做。那麼這個是一個法理啦。\n\n07:29.116 --> 07:55.464\n我們看到憲法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使職權我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預\n\n07:56.284 --> 07:57.886\n但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。\n\n08:18.342 --> 08:39.214\n這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何\n\n08:40.457 --> 08:40.597\n關於罷免\n\n09:04.500 --> 09:04.520\n．吳思瑤議員\n\n09:29.548 --> 09:33.110\n市長的說明您的看法跟我一致所謂實體重修程序重新在我看來選辦法要提高罷免門檻也好或者是要增加聯署的難度也好這都涉及人民權利的行使這都是實體呀\n\n09:53.118 --> 10:20.231\n而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥然後去凌駕於保障人民權利我認為這是完全不通的所以您剛剛的解釋不管是中央法規標準法第18條重新從優之法例都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋對於人民權利的保障而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高任何一個法律修法的基本原則也就是ABC對不對\n\n10:20.991 --> 10:42.419\n是這是我們一貫的理想好謝謝那讓我一點點時間下一頁今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下一頁那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁\n\n10:43.119 --> 10:47.001\n．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出\n\n11:05.828 --> 11:17.391\n所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要在周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸\n\n11:25.066 --> 11:25.086\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n11:41.181 --> 12:07.021\n另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融受準金融的行為來做這個監理,強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委又提示了很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係\n\n12:08.022 --> 12:08.042\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n12:35.815 --> 13:02.236\n因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的\n\n13:04.358 --> 13:29.454\n國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁\n\n13:30.234 --> 13:53.810\n所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長\n\n13:54.711 --> 13:57.334\n你們會有對案嗎?如果是要修民法?\n\n14:16.495 --> 14:39.332\n這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定\n\n14:40.072 --> 14:41.816\n我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙聚更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝教委,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.434,"end":34.412,"text":"謝謝主席,有請次長。好,請黃次長。次長,我們過去是立法院同事,過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰,那很期待跟您的對話。民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關。那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開"},{"start":36.789,"end":64.475,"text":"那停期已定那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會"},{"start":65.7,"end":90.188,"text":"那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們"},{"start":92,"end":109.372,"text":"這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹"},{"start":112.094,"end":138.839,"text":"第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以也違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、趙偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會趙偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎"},{"start":139.739,"end":145.897,"text":"所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們"},{"start":147.196,"end":171.435,"text":"原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電事長期鎖定禁電事以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪"},{"start":172.496,"end":194.116,"text":"公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來"},{"start":196.198,"end":198.519,"text":"我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見"},{"start":218.646,"end":243.617,"text":"好 那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好 下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好 我懂下一頁如果說"},{"start":246.121,"end":263.76,"text":"以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子"},{"start":266.307,"end":292.118,"text":"馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎"},{"start":293.53,"end":311.967,"text":"我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請"},{"start":312.868,"end":339.978,"text":"那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在在野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬"},{"start":342.459,"end":361.615,"text":"對於大法官不敬。那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎?下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論"},{"start":362.836,"end":382.605,"text":"我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說"},{"start":387.688,"end":403.884,"text":"國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了"},{"start":404.685,"end":404.885,"text":"委員吳思瑤"},{"start":422.444,"end":448.016,"text":"當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件。那麼因為這個憲法法庭的所處理的大概都是法律問題為多。那所以呢這個像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是呢也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做。那麼這個是一個法理啦。"},{"start":449.116,"end":475.464,"text":"我們看到憲法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使職權我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預"},{"start":476.284,"end":477.886,"text":"但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。"},{"start":498.342,"end":519.214,"text":"這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何"},{"start":520.457,"end":520.597,"text":"關於罷免"},{"start":544.5,"end":544.52,"text":"．吳思瑤議員"},{"start":569.548,"end":573.11,"text":"市長的說明您的看法跟我一致所謂實體重修程序重新在我看來選辦法要提高罷免門檻也好或者是要增加聯署的難度也好這都涉及人民權利的行使這都是實體呀"},{"start":593.118,"end":620.231,"text":"而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥然後去凌駕於保障人民權利我認為這是完全不通的所以您剛剛的解釋不管是中央法規標準法第18條重新從優之法例都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋對於人民權利的保障而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高任何一個法律修法的基本原則也就是ABC 對不對"},{"start":620.991,"end":642.419,"text":"是這是我們一貫的理想好謝謝那讓我一點點時間下一頁今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下一頁那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁"},{"start":643.119,"end":647.001,"text":"．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出"},{"start":665.828,"end":677.391,"text":"所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要在周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸"},{"start":685.066,"end":685.086,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":701.181,"end":727.021,"text":"另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融受準金融的行為來做這個監理,強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委又提示了很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係"},{"start":728.022,"end":728.042,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":755.815,"end":782.236,"text":"因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的"},{"start":784.358,"end":809.454,"text":"國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁"},{"start":810.234,"end":833.81,"text":"所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長"},{"start":834.711,"end":837.334,"text":"你們會有對案嗎?如果是要修民法?"},{"start":856.495,"end":879.332,"text":"這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定"},{"start":880.072,"end":881.816,"text":"我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙聚更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝教委,謝謝。"}]}}}}