{"id":154503,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdd270d818322be73427d0a78c1009ae5ee8e3eb0bf88d021c628b53a5dd7052865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:36:52 - 11:48:34","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:36:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:48:34+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時36分）謝謝主席。請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員，你好！"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安！部長，蔡英文總統曾經說過，如果沒有當年823的勝利，就沒有今天的臺灣。請問部長，您肯定這樣的說法嗎？"],["李部長遠：當然、當然。"],["陳委員秀寳：肯定喔！"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：專家更還原了1958年823砲戰的歷史，是因為臺灣、美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利，本席認為歷史可以原諒，但是不可以忘記，我們持續努力還原歷史的真相，推動轉型正義，祈願我們臺灣世世代代的子民不但要瞭解真實的歷史，更要彰顯民主自由，高舉人權正義，因為這是臺灣人堅定的信仰，也是臺灣人的根本。","但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過，也非常擔心，曾經參與戰役唯一現存的功勳艦，就是中海軍艦，長期閒置在旗津的碼頭，在各方的爭取下，文化部指定中海艦是重要的古物，海軍也編列了7,200萬的維護及調查經費，但是國防部在上週向立院提交的預算解凍報告裡面顯示，海軍說，如果仍然沒有地方政府接收、活化再利用，將請文化部解除中海艦的古物列管。","我想請教部長，這是我們文資保存的作法嗎？本席真的很擔心，文化部是可以這樣做、會這樣子做？你們真的會解除列管嗎？"],["李部長遠：不會、不會。"],["陳委員秀寳：不會喔！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實對於過去我們這些文物的保存，我們一直覺得，我們把它指定了之後，後續到底我們如何實質地落實在這些文物保存上面，很多民眾都非常地關心。中海艦未來如果被拆除，不但是浪費執行的預算，也是顯示文化部沒有做文資保存的決心，所以這個部分是不是請文化部跟我們海軍還有地方政府儘快研議出一個方案來做處理？部長，您說。"],["李部長遠：是，一定會。"],["陳委員秀寳：那你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程、自己本身的規劃？"],["李部長遠：期程我想問一下文資局局長。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，在過程當中，我們跟海軍也都保持密切的聯繫，包括在經費的補助上面，也都有編列一定的預算，後續海軍一定要負責，依照文資法裡面，它是所有人，必須要負起保存修復的責任，文化部會在相關專業……"],["陳委員秀寳：對，當然海軍是保管者，是所有人，但是對於地方政府的協調，我們文化部也要有作為……"],["陳局長濟民：有，我們會來協助海軍跟地方政府……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，這個請儘快，而且有相關消息的時候，也請告訴我辦公室你們相關的進度。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實文化資產保存法實施四十多年來，民間甚至戲稱文化資產是修一個壞一個，有時候甚至會出現專業者之間會互相批評，因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣；那有一些主持修復的專家、官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者，所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗。我想請教部長，您真的覺得對文資修復有意見的民間人士，真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎？或者這是一個棒打出頭鳥的概念，沒有辦法解決事情、沒有辦法解決問題，只是想解決提出問題的人，對於文資修復相關的意見，我們去整合、去充分溝通，不是文資局本來就應該要做的嗎？"],["李部長遠：是！委員，你問的問題非常好，這有兩個層面，其實早期臺灣比較沒有文資概念的時候，都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲，譬如說我們現在看到臺北幾個最大的園區，都是靠少數人提出來的，因為當時沒有文資概念，所以第一個層面，我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究者的意見；第二個層面，如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候，就會碰到一些法律問題，因為它不會那麼單純的只是保留，它可能有都更的問題、有土地的問題，還有擁有人的問題，所以我們會儘量去溝通，這是我們的責任，所以我不會認為他們是恐怖份子。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長，您也這樣肯定願意提供相關訊息、相關資料、相關意見的人，其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心，而且他本身有這樣的記憶，或者有這樣的意見可以提供我們來協助文資的修復。本席剛有提到充分地溝通，其實是文資局本來就應該要做的，文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整，目的就是為了健全軟硬體相關的功能，讓建築能夠更符合現代需求，但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移、拆除或其他外形及內部變更，都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理。但是看一下最近的例子，臺中的歷史建築大屯郡役所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修繕工程中，明明也經過相關的文資審議，但是還是遭受爭議。還有剛才多位委員非常關心的鹿港龍山寺修復的爭議，我光是在教育及文化委員會質詢、追蹤關於龍山寺的修復，也追蹤了很多次，整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常地焦急，因為我們意見無法整合，不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來，或者是得標廠商受到的為難跟委屈，這個部分我們都沒有妥善地處理，我想請教在文化資產保存的過程中，如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意，但是都可以接受，文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後，有沒有正視這個問題？你們如何來處理？"],["李部長遠：因為這個標準真的很難訂，譬如說，你修到一個程度，地方不滿意，可是我們覺得又能符合，這個標準很難訂。我想是不是可以請文資局局長回答？"],["陳委員秀寳：好，局長。"],["陳局長濟民：我想這個大概就是一個溝通的過程，包括在審議會、公聽會裡面，像修復再利用裡面，假如曾經修復它，必須要辦理公聽會或者說明會，我想那個會議是凝聚共識啦！"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我會一直強調，就是意見的整合跟充分溝通，充分溝通真的、真的非常地重要。這個部分，我也希望你們在這麼多次的經驗之後，你們面對文資保存的部分，你們要去正視在會議上充分溝通的重要性，而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見。","接下來我想請教部長，文化部說根據產業調查研究成果，在廣徵產官學研的意見，於2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資，制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3,922元，使第一線的傳統匠師受重視、有使命感，並希望吸引更多的年輕人、優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域。但是我想請教部長，在所有文資修復的案件中，每天最低薪的參考基準，傳統匠師是不是真的都可以領到？文化部有沒有認真地去查核過，得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定？"],["李部長遠：我們也知道這個問題，因為最低薪資3,922元，可是他一個禮拜只工作兩、三天，我們在今年年底會讓這部分落實、讓他們可以領到，甚至於我們最近在研擬薪資的提高還有分級制，因為我們文化部有警覺到這個問題非常嚴重。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，我看了一下你們的招標規範，其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的疑慮，我們要保障傳統匠師每天最低薪資的基準，其實很難達成，我希望文化部對於這個事情，既然你已經有感受到這是有問題的，你們也要研議一個相關的方案，真正落實來保障這些傳統匠師。"],["李部長遠：是，會。"],["陳委員秀寳：而且本席認為除了薪資之外，讓第一線的傳統匠師感受到被重視、有使命感，讓年輕的人才願意投入，也應該要有一些相對的獎勵、鼓勵，相對於臺灣技職教育有全國技能競賽，讓技職人有這樣的榮耀感，但是我們文資修復的部分，文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統匠師這些競技的競賽活動，或者一些相關的作法，讓一些願意投入的傳統匠師，他們能夠靠著自己的技能、靠著自己的技術來取得這樣的榮耀，有沒有辦法研議相關的競賽？"],["李部長遠：有！我們正在做，就是要把優良傳統匠師納入國家文化資產保存的獎項，提高他的尊榮感，因為我們也辦理修復技術全國技能大賽，吸引年輕人投入，非常高興委員提到這些，剛好就是我們正在做的，因為我們覺得年輕人如果能夠投入這個行業，讓薪水夠他生活，他有榮耀感，這是非常重要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，部長剛才也點出了，除了足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外，他本身對這一份工作是有使命的、是有榮耀感。"],["李部長遠：對，這個行業。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為其實傳統匠師的培育、養成對整個文資修復的重要性，我想你們都知道，我們需要有這樣的人才，而且隨著時間的推移，需要修復的保存古物、文物越來越多，也越來越急迫，所以對於鼓勵人才這部分也希望文化部能夠再多做努力。","接下來，我想請教一下，關於國立臺灣大學創立近百年，但是監委范巽綠的調查報告，他調查發現臺大未有校園文化資產分級、分類、分期修復整體藍圖，文化資產圮毀嚴重，公有文化資產容積移轉規制尚未健全，而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年，雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤，但是沒有審慎地修繕，已經函請臺大及文化部檢討改進。這邊我要請教部長，文化部如何明確地規範文資執行的事項，並且建立通報系統，讓公有建造物的所有或管理單位有所憑依？還是局長您要回答？"],["李部長遠：局長你來回答。"],["陳局長濟民：超過50年，依照文資法第十五條，它必須有一定的機制，要通報主管機關，如果是市定古蹟，或是歷史建築要通報臺北市政府，然後要經過文化資產調查評估，它有一定的程序。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們是有這樣的程序沒錯，但是我們如何明確地規範，或者如何落實相關的通報機制？"],["陳局長濟民：有的，我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經有進行一些聯繫，要建立一些管道，尤其是大家提到會有誤拆的這種可能，就是在縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以文資局現在正在做？"],["陳局長濟民：正在做。"],["陳委員秀寳：正在跟地方政府聯繫中，這個部分我也請你如果達到一定的進度，提供一份報告給我辦公室好嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：以上，謝謝。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，部長請回。","接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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--> 00:00:44,275\n當然當然張家也更還原了1958年八二三炮戰的歷史是因為台灣美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利本席認為說歷史可以原諒但是不可以忘記當我們持續的努力還原歷史的真相推動轉型正義祈願我們台灣世世代代的子民不但要了解真實的歷史更要彰顯民主自由高舉人權正義因為這是台灣人堅定的信仰也是台灣人的根本\n\n3\n00:00:44,835 --> 00:00:59,393\n但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過也非常的擔心曾經參與戰役的這個唯一現存的工訓艦就是中海軍艦那長期閒置在其境的碼頭\n\n4\n00:01:00,354 --> 00:01:07,223\n在各方的爭取下,文化部司機有指定中海建設重要的穀物海軍並且也編列了7200萬維護及調查的經費但是國防部在上週的商力院提交的預算解凍報告顯示說,海軍說,如果\n\n5\n00:01:16,135 --> 00:01:32,688\n仍然沒有地方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎\n\n6\n00:01:34,014 --> 00:01:57,899\n不會不會因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心\n\n7\n00:01:58,479 --> 00:02:15,486\n那所以這個部分是不是要請文化部跟我們海軍這邊還有地方政府你們盡快研議出一個方案來做處理部長您說是一定會那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我要問一下這個文智局局長\n\n8\n00:02:17,403 --> 00:02:35,018\n在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業\n\n9\n00:02:36,459 --> 00:02:37,779\n其實《文化資產保存法》實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個\n\n10\n00:03:01,087 --> 00:03:26,426\n有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎\n\n11\n00:03:26,886 --> 00:03:26,906\n陳秀寳議員\n\n12\n00:03:43,311 --> 00:04:09,472\n是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是\n\n13\n00:04:10,632 --> 00:04:29,700\n如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子\n\n14\n00:04:32,870 --> 00:04:53,369\n謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的\n\n15\n00:04:54,210 --> 00:05:13,977\n文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理\n\n16\n00:05:17,378 --> 00:05:36,171\n但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才也多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議\n\n17\n00:05:37,372 --> 00:05:57,851\n我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教\n\n18\n00:05:59,392 --> 00:06:22,653\n在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好局長\n\n19\n00:06:24,364 --> 00:06:26,786\n所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要\n\n20\n00:06:44,198 --> 00:06:56,889\n那這個部分呢我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長\n\n21\n00:07:01,974 --> 00:07:20,261\n文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣正產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．傳統優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域．\n\n22\n00:07:24,443 --> 00:07:36,637\n但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?\n\n23\n00:07:38,388 --> 00:07:57,040\n我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重\n\n24\n00:07:58,189 --> 00:08:20,560\n對因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的這個疑慮那我們要保障這個傳統將士每天有這個最低薪資的這個基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢本席認為說除了薪資之外\n\n25\n00:08:24,842 --> 00:08:47,614\n讓第一線的傳統教師感受到備重是有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽那這些技職人有這樣的榮耀感但是我們文資修復的部分我們文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統教師的這些競技的競賽活動或者一些相關的一些來\n\n26\n00:08:49,795 --> 00:08:49,815\n陳秀寳議員\n\n27\n00:09:26,198 --> 00:09:36,732\n對,那個部長林漾點出了就是說,足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外,他本身對這一份工作是有使命的,是有人要感的。因為其實傳統教師的培育養成,對我們整個的文資修復的重要性,我想你們都知道,我們需要有這樣的人才。\n\n28\n00:09:44,642 --> 00:09:44,662\n陳秀寳議員\n\n29\n00:10:01,794 --> 00:10:06,880\n國立臺灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告他調查發現說臺大未有校園文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖\n\n30\n00:10:15,930 --> 00:10:22,474\n公有文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤但是沒有損勝的修繕已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進那這邊我要請教部長文化部如何明確的規範呢文資執行的事項並且建立通報系統讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一\n\n31\n00:10:46,872 --> 00:10:48,073\n我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制\n\n32\n00:11:09,948 --> 00:11:37,831\n有的這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好以上謝謝\n\n33\n00:11:40,319 --> 00:11:41,003\n好謝謝陳雪秀寶委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t1070\t蔡英文總統曾經說過,如果沒有當年的823的勝利就沒有今天的台灣,請問部長您肯定這樣的說法嗎?\n17814\t44275\t當然當然張家也更還原了1958年八二三炮戰的歷史是因為台灣美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利本席認為說歷史可以原諒但是不可以忘記當我們持續的努力還原歷史的真相推動轉型正義祈願我們台灣世世代代的子民不但要了解真實的歷史更要彰顯民主自由高舉人權正義因為這是台灣人堅定的信仰也是台灣人的根本\n44835\t59393\t但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過也非常的擔心曾經參與戰役的這個唯一現存的工訓艦就是中海軍艦那長期閒置在其境的碼頭\n60354\t67223\t在各方的爭取下,文化部司機有指定中海建設重要的穀物海軍並且也編列了7200萬維護及調查的經費但是國防部在上週的商力院提交的預算解凍報告顯示說,海軍說,如果\n76135\t92688\t仍然沒有地方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎\n94014\t117899\t不會不會因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心\n118479\t135486\t那所以這個部分是不是要請文化部跟我們海軍這邊還有地方政府你們盡快研議出一個方案來做處理部長您說是 一定會那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我要問一下這個文智局局長\n137403\t155018\t在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業\n156459\t157779\t其實《文化資產保存法》實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個\n181087\t206426\t有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎\n206886\t206906\t陳秀寳議員\n223311\t249472\t是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是\n250632\t269700\t如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子\n272870\t293369\t謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的\n294210\t313977\t文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理\n317378\t336171\t但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才也多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議\n337372\t357851\t我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教\n359392\t382653\t在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好 局長\n384364\t386786\t所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要\n404198\t416889\t那這個部分呢我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長\n421974\t440261\t文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣正產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．傳統優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域．\n444443\t456637\t但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?\n458388\t477040\t我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重\n478189\t500560\t對 因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的這個疑慮那我們要保障這個傳統將士每天有這個最低薪資的這個基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢 本席認為說除了薪資之外\n504842\t527614\t讓第一線的傳統教師感受到備重是有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽那這些技職人有這樣的榮耀感但是我們文資修復的部分我們文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統教師的這些競技的競賽活動或者一些相關的一些來\n529795\t529815\t陳秀寳議員\n550418\t565998\t對﹖\n566198\t576732\t對,那個部長林漾點出了就是說,足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外,他本身對這一份工作是有使命的,是有人要感的。因為其實傳統教師的培育養成,對我們整個的文資修復的重要性,我想你們都知道,我們需要有這樣的人才。\n584642\t584662\t陳秀寳議員\n601794\t606880\t國立臺灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告他調查發現說臺大未有校園文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖\n615930\t622474\t公有文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤但是沒有損勝的修繕已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進那這邊我要請教部長文化部如何明確的規範呢文資執行的事項並且建立通報系統讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一\n646872\t648073\t我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制\n669948\t697831\t有的 這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好 以上 謝謝\n700319\t701003\t好 謝謝陳雪秀寶委員\n","txt":"蔡英文總統曾經說過,如果沒有當年的823的勝利就沒有今天的台灣,請問部長您肯定這樣的說法嗎?\n當然當然張家也更還原了1958年八二三炮戰的歷史是因為台灣美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利本席認為說歷史可以原諒但是不可以忘記當我們持續的努力還原歷史的真相推動轉型正義祈願我們台灣世世代代的子民不但要了解真實的歷史更要彰顯民主自由高舉人權正義因為這是台灣人堅定的信仰也是台灣人的根本\n但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過也非常的擔心曾經參與戰役的這個唯一現存的工訓艦就是中海軍艦那長期閒置在其境的碼頭\n在各方的爭取下,文化部司機有指定中海建設重要的穀物海軍並且也編列了7200萬維護及調查的經費但是國防部在上週的商力院提交的預算解凍報告顯示說,海軍說,如果\n仍然沒有地方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎\n不會不會因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心\n那所以這個部分是不是要請文化部跟我們海軍這邊還有地方政府你們盡快研議出一個方案來做處理部長您說是 一定會那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我要問一下這個文智局局長\n在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業\n其實《文化資產保存法》實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個\n有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎\n陳秀寳議員\n是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是\n如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子\n謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的\n文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理\n但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才也多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議\n我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教\n在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好 局長\n所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要\n那這個部分呢我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長\n文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣正產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．傳統優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域．\n但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?\n我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重\n對 因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的這個疑慮那我們要保障這個傳統將士每天有這個最低薪資的這個基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢 本席認為說除了薪資之外\n讓第一線的傳統教師感受到備重是有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽那這些技職人有這樣的榮耀感但是我們文資修復的部分我們文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統教師的這些競技的競賽活動或者一些相關的一些來\n陳秀寳議員\n對﹖\n對,那個部長林漾點出了就是說,足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外,他本身對這一份工作是有使命的,是有人要感的。因為其實傳統教師的培育養成,對我們整個的文資修復的重要性,我想你們都知道,我們需要有這樣的人才。\n陳秀寳議員\n國立臺灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告他調查發現說臺大未有校園文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖\n公有文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤但是沒有損勝的修繕已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進那這邊我要請教部長文化部如何明確的規範呢文資執行的事項並且建立通報系統讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一\n我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制\n有的 這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好 以上 謝謝\n好 謝謝陳雪秀寶委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:01.070\n蔡英文總統曾經說過,如果沒有當年的823的勝利就沒有今天的台灣,請問部長您肯定這樣的說法嗎?\n\n00:17.814 --> 00:44.275\n當然當然張家也更還原了1958年八二三炮戰的歷史是因為台灣美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利本席認為說歷史可以原諒但是不可以忘記當我們持續的努力還原歷史的真相推動轉型正義祈願我們台灣世世代代的子民不但要了解真實的歷史更要彰顯民主自由高舉人權正義因為這是台灣人堅定的信仰也是台灣人的根本\n\n00:44.835 --> 00:59.393\n但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過也非常的擔心曾經參與戰役的這個唯一現存的工訓艦就是中海軍艦那長期閒置在其境的碼頭\n\n01:00.354 --> 01:07.223\n在各方的爭取下,文化部司機有指定中海建設重要的穀物海軍並且也編列了7200萬維護及調查的經費但是國防部在上週的商力院提交的預算解凍報告顯示說,海軍說,如果\n\n01:16.135 --> 01:32.688\n仍然沒有地方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎\n\n01:34.014 --> 01:57.899\n不會不會因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心\n\n01:58.479 --> 02:15.486\n那所以這個部分是不是要請文化部跟我們海軍這邊還有地方政府你們盡快研議出一個方案來做處理部長您說是一定會那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我要問一下這個文智局局長\n\n02:17.403 --> 02:35.018\n在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業\n\n02:36.459 --> 02:37.779\n其實《文化資產保存法》實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個\n\n03:01.087 --> 03:26.426\n有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎\n\n03:26.886 --> 03:26.906\n陳秀寳議員\n\n03:43.311 --> 04:09.472\n是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是\n\n04:10.632 --> 04:29.700\n如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子\n\n04:32.870 --> 04:53.369\n謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的\n\n04:54.210 --> 05:13.977\n文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理\n\n05:17.378 --> 05:36.171\n但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才也多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議\n\n05:37.372 --> 05:57.851\n我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教\n\n05:59.392 --> 06:22.653\n在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好局長\n\n06:24.364 --> 06:26.786\n所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要\n\n06:44.198 --> 06:56.889\n那這個部分呢我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長\n\n07:01.974 --> 07:20.261\n文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣正產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．傳統優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域．\n\n07:24.443 --> 07:36.637\n但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?\n\n07:38.388 --> 07:57.040\n我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重\n\n07:58.189 --> 08:20.560\n對因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的這個疑慮那我們要保障這個傳統將士每天有這個最低薪資的這個基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢本席認為說除了薪資之外\n\n08:24.842 --> 08:47.614\n讓第一線的傳統教師感受到備重是有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽那這些技職人有這樣的榮耀感但是我們文資修復的部分我們文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統教師的這些競技的競賽活動或者一些相關的一些來\n\n08:49.795 --> 08:49.815\n陳秀寳議員\n\n09:26.198 --> 09:36.732\n對,那個部長林漾點出了就是說,足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外,他本身對這一份工作是有使命的,是有人要感的。因為其實傳統教師的培育養成,對我們整個的文資修復的重要性,我想你們都知道,我們需要有這樣的人才。\n\n09:44.642 --> 09:44.662\n陳秀寳議員\n\n10:01.794 --> 10:06.880\n國立臺灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告他調查發現說臺大未有校園文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖\n\n10:15.930 --> 10:22.474\n公有文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤但是沒有損勝的修繕已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進那這邊我要請教部長文化部如何明確的規範呢文資執行的事項並且建立通報系統讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一\n\n10:46.872 --> 10:48.073\n我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制\n\n11:09.948 --> 11:37.831\n有的這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好以上謝謝\n\n11:40.319 --> 11:41.003\n好謝謝陳雪秀寶委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.07,"text":"蔡英文總統曾經說過,如果沒有當年的823的勝利就沒有今天的台灣,請問部長您肯定這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":17.814,"end":44.275,"text":"當然當然張家也更還原了1958年八二三炮戰的歷史是因為台灣美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利本席認為說歷史可以原諒但是不可以忘記當我們持續的努力還原歷史的真相推動轉型正義祈願我們台灣世世代代的子民不但要了解真實的歷史更要彰顯民主自由高舉人權正義因為這是台灣人堅定的信仰也是台灣人的根本"},{"start":44.835,"end":59.393,"text":"但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過也非常的擔心曾經參與戰役的這個唯一現存的工訓艦就是中海軍艦那長期閒置在其境的碼頭"},{"start":60.354,"end":67.223,"text":"在各方的爭取下,文化部司機有指定中海建設重要的穀物海軍並且也編列了7200萬維護及調查的經費但是國防部在上週的商力院提交的預算解凍報告顯示說,海軍說,如果"},{"start":76.135,"end":92.688,"text":"仍然沒有地方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎"},{"start":94.014,"end":117.899,"text":"不會不會因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心"},{"start":118.479,"end":135.486,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是要請文化部跟我們海軍這邊還有地方政府你們盡快研議出一個方案來做處理部長您說是 一定會那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我要問一下這個文智局局長"},{"start":137.403,"end":155.018,"text":"在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業"},{"start":156.459,"end":157.779,"text":"其實《文化資產保存法》實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個"},{"start":181.087,"end":206.426,"text":"有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎"},{"start":206.886,"end":206.906,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":223.311,"end":249.472,"text":"是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是"},{"start":250.632,"end":269.7,"text":"如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子"},{"start":272.87,"end":293.369,"text":"謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的"},{"start":294.21,"end":313.977,"text":"文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理"},{"start":317.378,"end":336.171,"text":"但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才也多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議"},{"start":337.372,"end":357.851,"text":"我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教"},{"start":359.392,"end":382.653,"text":"在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好 局長"},{"start":384.364,"end":386.786,"text":"所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要"},{"start":404.198,"end":416.889,"text":"那這個部分呢我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長"},{"start":421.974,"end":440.261,"text":"文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣正產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．傳統優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域．"},{"start":444.443,"end":456.637,"text":"但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?"},{"start":458.388,"end":477.04,"text":"我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重"},{"start":478.189,"end":500.56,"text":"對 因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的這個疑慮那我們要保障這個傳統將士每天有這個最低薪資的這個基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢 本席認為說除了薪資之外"},{"start":504.842,"end":527.614,"text":"讓第一線的傳統教師感受到備重是有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽那這些技職人有這樣的榮耀感但是我們文資修復的部分我們文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統教師的這些競技的競賽活動或者一些相關的一些來"},{"start":529.795,"end":529.815,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":550.418,"end":565.998,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":566.198,"end":576.732,"text":"對,那個部長林漾點出了就是說,足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外,他本身對這一份工作是有使命的,是有人要感的。因為其實傳統教師的培育養成,對我們整個的文資修復的重要性,我想你們都知道,我們需要有這樣的人才。"},{"start":584.642,"end":584.662,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":601.794,"end":606.88,"text":"國立臺灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告他調查發現說臺大未有校園文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖"},{"start":615.93,"end":622.474,"text":"公有文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤但是沒有損勝的修繕已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進那這邊我要請教部長文化部如何明確的規範呢文資執行的事項並且建立通報系統讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一"},{"start":646.872,"end":648.073,"text":"我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制"},{"start":669.948,"end":697.831,"text":"有的 這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":700.319,"end":701.003,"text":"好 謝謝陳雪秀寶委員"}]}}}}