{"id":154516,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154516","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bddbfd994bb79b759e27d0a78c1009ae5e47ffec24bc1a8f649d9045ad635f6ddf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:21:29 - 12:35:33","影片長度":"00:14:04","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:21:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:35:33+08:00","duration":844,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時21分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員你好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安，辛苦了！因為剛剛已經有很多人檢討了金曲獎的頒獎，而且我們今天有一個臨時提案已經通過了，所以我就不再多講，我本來是要求一週內，但是我配合大家。我還想再提一個，就是除了小編，剛剛吳沛憶委員有提到小編，這個絕對不是小編可以處理的，因為就像這一次巴奈講的，音樂本身不是跟政治無關，過去金曲獎的頒獎已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題，所以那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好地檢討，怎麼看待金曲現場這個小編的服務。另外，我再補充一下，當天的麥克風不是只有在MC HotDog上場的時候，它整個高度還好幾度遮掩了我們重要致詞人的臉部，我在現場看到都覺得很尷尬。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["范委員雲：所以這些檢討也請一併納入，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，我會。"],["范委員雲：因為這是我們這麼重要的一個文化活動，當天現場我是覺得非常地欣賞，也很得到文化上的刺激，重要的文化慶典我想我們不應該忽略，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：我們再回來談，因為剛剛幾位委員針對中正紀念堂跟部長都有很精彩的對話，我今天比較想提的是，我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點啦！剛剛部長有講到，之前文化部是說因為國防部阻撓嘛！那顧立雄部長，我今天才知道是我們林宜瑾委員去質詢的，非常精彩的內容，顧部長已經說了可以不要在銅像旁，再來就是文化部主管的事，可惜我們文化部次長的回應是說跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算，好像給人感覺怎麼又在互踢皮球了？然後在最近，剛剛林宜瑾委員也有提到，行政院中正紀念堂轉型推動專案小組成員的發言是說已經做出撤出的決議，當然部長剛剛有澄清，說您有看了這個紀錄，可是我的感覺是今天部長在現場才有把這個價值、態度講得比較清楚。","我之前也有質詢過，其實你們給我們教文委員的報告都已經講了，中正紀念堂在促轉會解散後，文化部作為主責機關負責中正紀念堂轉型，這個轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型，那可以理解，因為前面也有委員提到部長講到歷史記憶的事情，我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順啦！我先請問部長，你有沒有聽過，你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區？"],["李部長遠：我知道。"],["范委員雲：它是哪裡您知道嗎？"],["李部長遠：臺灣民主紀念園區啊？"],["范委員雲：對。"],["李部長遠：應該是有好幾個地方。"],["范委員雲：所以部長顯然也不熟悉，跟部長報告……"],["李部長遠：這個名字沒有太流行吧！你把中正紀念堂叫做臺灣民主園區，一般人的確是不知道。"],["范委員雲：好，一般人不知道，但是部長您要知道啊！為什麼？因為中正紀念堂有兩種文資身分，2007年是國定的，登錄為國定的文資身分，它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區。部長，您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊，還是粉紅色塊？"],["李部長遠：藍色塊。"],["范委員雲：那您就錯了。"],["李部長遠：粉紅色塊，對不起。"],["范委員雲：那個藍色塊是臺北市政府核定的，可見大家都不瞭解。"],["李部長遠：粉紅色這一塊，對。"],["范委員雲：臺北市政府把它核定為市定文化景觀，然後中間的粉紅色是臺灣民主紀念園區，至於最核心的堂體，深藍的部分，您知不知道有被哪一塊匡定？有被我們臺灣民主紀念園區匡定嗎？"],["李部長遠：它已經被定為國定古蹟吧！這一塊。"],["范委員雲：好，沒關係，因為時間關係，這個堂體非常有意思，兩塊都有匡定。臺北市匡定的市定文化景觀是包最大的，他們有他們官方的理由，至於2007年當時的文建會匡定的是粉紅色，包含兩個藍的。","再來，我們看它匡定的理由是什麼。民主紀念園區裡面有一點，就是呼應剛剛部長講的，「本古蹟為臺灣重要之政治空間，承載多數臺灣住民二戰後的各種政治記憶，有其足夠的代表性」，然後名稱叫做「民主」，就是認為一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶，很多著名的。這個是陳水扁擔任總統在2007年核定的，至今沒有被改過，馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分，所以臺灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位。","我們來看一下不同政黨的郝龍斌，他們都有開過會的，它的官方文字是什麼？建築兩邊都有講到，你看它的第二點，它有兩個理由，第二點中間說「廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所，從學運到燈會以及選舉造勢晚會等等，與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠」，最後，休閒那個當然有講，但是最重要就是說「故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值，已成為市民休閒、藝術及公民歷史事件之共同活動與記憶」，我想請問部長，這兩個版本，一藍一綠聽起來，你覺得最大的共識是什麼？"],["李部長遠：那就是走過歷史的共同記憶，但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同。"],["范委員雲：這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔！它解釋也許有不同，沒有說出來，但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方，是民主記憶的一個過程，就算有威權也是民主，所以從威權走到民主，我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識，否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他匡了這麼大，可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來，跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：所以我們踩定這個立場其實就沒有錯了嘛！就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的，現在大家共同的價值超越藍綠的就是民主，然後民主過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現。","我們看一下，鄭麗君部長他任內做的事情是停播「蔣公紀念歌」，把具威權意象的「中正藝廊」、「介石廳」改為「1展廳」、「2展廳」等中性的名稱。李永得部長，當時我也要求做了相關轉型正義的小旅行等等，文化部都有去努力辦理相關活動，然後增設獨裁者VS.自由的靈魂常設展等等。史哲部長展出了「想像中正紀念堂的100種方式」特展。再來就是我們李部長了，所以部長可以好好地思考一下，在這個藍圖上您的目標是什麼。","對我們來講的話，我想今天幾位委員都有提到，在一個月內至少可以有一個三軍儀隊撤離銅像旁的規劃跟想法，剛剛您有說到9月嘛！如果您覺得一個月不夠，我覺得不管是到自由廣場，如果是國家儀隊、三軍儀隊的話，他應該保護的是自由跟民主，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：不是保護一個偉人或獨裁者，現在已經沒有人敢說他是偉人了，就是一個威權的政治領導者，或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質，我想這個部分，空間是文化部，但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主，應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：那部長可以在一個月內，或者是您覺得不夠，兩個月也可以，給我們一個您初步的規劃，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：一個月絕對可以。"],["范委員雲：好，可以，部長加油。因為在鄭部長、李部長、史部長之後，我們覺得這條路應該是可以走得更順了。","再來，今天這個主題要謝謝召委，這一題也非常地重要，不知道部長知不知道我們文史團體有發起連署，在大安區過去也是被保留的日式建築群裡面有曹永和跟陳奇祿的故居，連署人數超過3,000人，包含45位校長、館長、院長、所長，還有367個教授及21個學會，不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["李部長遠：有，不但有看到，而且我非常重視，因為其中曹永和先生跟陳奇祿先生我都認識，而且我曾經在學習歷史的過程中跟他們學習過，所以這整個過程我非常注意。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。很高興部長知道，而且它不只是個人的居所喔！那個是日治時代的建築群，臺大有保留一部分，它本身也是有建築上面的價值，再加上文史價值，所以連署非常地熱絡。","我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子，發現有不少問題，這是其中一個建築群，這裡面有陳奇祿的故居，它曾經在106年受理，後來就是因為有文資潛力，所以在會勘之後予以列冊，而且107年開會都是持續列冊，有保存價值。可是居然4年後被突襲，111年被突襲，而且過程中都沒有依照文化部相關的行政命令跟手冊，沒有依規定通知提報人，最誇張的是它解列，從此不再列管，就是不被認為有文資地位，那個會議跟我們立法院很像，沒有討論所以也沒有民主，變成報告案。那我們看了文化部的函釋，很明確說這種案子解列管、解列冊是非常重要的，解列案應該要實質討論，它是用報告案，而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕地沒有告訴大家明確的地址，所以有程序上的瑕疵，這是溫州街這一個建築群的情況。","另外一個2、4、6、8號建築群，這是另外一位曹永和故居的建築群，同樣地，5次現勘都沒有進入屋內，依照文化部的指示，屋內一定要進去，戶外、戶內進去，然後也沒有依規定通知提報人。因為這些委員不斷地在換，對不對？過了幾年之後，提報人最知道文史價值，然後在會議裡面決議不具文資價值，所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵耶！甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要精神，它其實違反了，因為文化部自己的函釋及相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神嘛！所以這幾個問題，當然這個是臺北市政府的，不在我的質詢範圍內，但我想文化部有責任要瞭解。","今天因為時間的緣故，我們可以看到，這也不是我第一次發現地方政府有類似的問題了，我想請文化部做兩件事，針對層出不窮的地方文化局不遵照文化部的行政命令及相關手冊建議的程序違失，文化部要有一個究責機制吧？否則我們老是在搶救個案，會搶救不暇，這第一個可以嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：我們目前的法規是沒有究責。"],["范委員雲：沒有，它就不遵照你們的規定，我剛剛講了。"],["李部長遠：沒有究責，但是我們會去……"],["范委員雲：對，讓搶救文史的人，連通知都沒有被通知耶！"],["李部長遠：我們來檢討一下。"],["范委員雲：好，這是第一個。第二個，這裡面涉及到的，剛剛那個主角也是我很熟悉的臺灣大學，其實不只是臺大，就是說現在有很多都更案對他們來講，好像覺得已經保存一部分了，是不是不需要再保存？我覺得這個當然是跟主事者認為的臺大利益，他可能覺得有一些衝突，我覺得這個部分我們滿困擾的。因為像臺鐵，剛剛也有委員看到它被罰200萬的事嘛！對於這些擁有眾多歷史、有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、台糖、台電、臺鐵這一類公家機關，是不是文化部想想看，如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存呢？因為私人的話，我們可以講那個是財產的問題，但這些臺大、台電、台糖、臺鐵都是國家的資產，是不是更應該率先好好地保存，保護我們這些文資潛力？好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，這個盤點……"],["范委員雲：否則在財務自主的壓力下，大家想出各種方式，我覺得會讓所有關心文資的人跟我們的後代子孫，哪天知道我們沒有努力的話，他們會非常失望的。這兩個部分，您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告？"],["李部長遠：一個月。"],["范委員雲：一個月，好，謝謝部長，我們一起加油。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，部長請回。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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\"text\": \"廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"廣\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 347.213, \"end\": 347.413, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 347.413, \"end\": 347.673, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 347.673, \"end\": 347.874, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 347.874, \"end\": 348.474, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 348.474, \"end\": 348.694, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 348.694, \"end\": 348.954, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 348.954, \"end\": 349.435, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 349.435, \"end\": 349.675, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 349.675, \"end\": 349.935, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 349.935, \"end\": 350.576, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, 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\"化\", \"start\": 354.879, \"end\": 355.019, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 355.019, \"end\": 355.179, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"念\", \"start\": 355.179, \"end\": 355.36, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 355.36, \"end\": 355.54, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 355.54, \"end\": 356.28, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 356.28, \"end\": 356.38, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 356.38, \"end\": 356.4, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 356.4, \"end\": 356.44, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 356.44, \"end\": 356.701, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 356.701, \"end\": 356.941, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"閒\"}, {\"word\": \"藝\"}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 356.941, \"end\": 357.121, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 357.121, \"end\": 357.281, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 357.281, \"end\": 357.441, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"歷\"}, {\"word\": \"史\", \"start\": 357.441, \"end\": 357.541, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 357.541, \"end\": 357.741, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 357.741, \"end\": 357.982, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 357.982, \"end\": 358.082, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 358.082, \"end\": 358.102, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"憶\"}]}, {\"start\": 372.473, \"end\": 396.912, \"text\": \"我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 372.473, \"end\": 372.573, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 372.573, \"end\": 373.274, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 373.274, \"end\": 374.455, 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{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 394.37, \"end\": 394.79, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 394.79, \"end\": 395.591, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 395.591, \"end\": 396.031, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 396.031, \"end\": 396.392, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"憶\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 396.392, \"end\": 396.752, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 396.752, \"end\": 396.892, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 396.892, \"end\": 396.912, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 398.533, \"end\": 402.897, \"text\": \"所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 398.533, \"end\": 398.613, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 398.613, \"end\": 398.813, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"威\", \"start\": 398.813, \"end\": 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超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 422.035, \"end\": 422.476, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 422.476, \"end\": 422.656, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 422.656, \"end\": 422.816, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 422.816, \"end\": 423.016, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 423.016, \"end\": 423.176, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 423.176, \"end\": 423.316, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 423.316, \"end\": 423.436, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 423.436, \"end\": 423.636, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 423.636, \"end\": 423.816, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 423.816, \"end\": 423.976, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 423.976, \"end\": 424.237, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"藍\"}, 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00:00:43,010\n報告委員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的音樂本身不是跟政治無關\n\n3\n00:00:43,950 --> 00:00:53,157\n金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務那另外我想我再補充一下\n\n4\n00:00:59,042 --> 00:00:59,062\n范雲\n\n5\n00:01:29,926 --> 00:01:55,508\n再回來,因為剛剛我們幾位委員針對中正紀念堂都有很精彩的跟部長的對話那我今天比較想提的是就是我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我今天才知道是我們林益勤委員去質詢的又非常精彩的內容\n\n6\n00:01:56,068 --> 00:02:13,285\n他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得\n\n7\n00:02:17,767 --> 00:02:31,890\n行政院專案機場轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚\n\n8\n00:02:34,631 --> 00:02:37,012\n中正紀念堂促轉會解散後．文化部作為主責機關．負責中正紀念堂轉型轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型\n\n9\n00:02:51,761 --> 00:03:12,227\n那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方吧所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長\n\n10\n00:03:22,736 --> 00:03:51,149\n這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊\n\n11\n00:03:52,455 --> 00:03:52,476\n藍色塊\n\n12\n00:03:54,246 --> 00:04:22,654\n那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎\n\n13\n00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:54,546\n這是被已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就臺北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那\n\n14\n00:04:55,006 --> 00:05:16,257\n那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的\n\n15\n00:05:21,239 --> 00:05:42,049\n這是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到\n\n16\n00:05:47,213 --> 00:05:58,102\n廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶\n\n17\n00:06:12,473 --> 00:06:36,912\n我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程\n\n18\n00:06:38,533 --> 00:06:42,897\n所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的\n\n19\n00:07:02,035 --> 00:07:28,593\n那現在大家共同的架子超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力\n\n20\n00:07:29,253 --> 00:07:41,165\n辦理相關活動：偵射獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長射展史哲部長展出了想像中正經驗的一百種方式特展再來就是李部長\n\n21\n00:07:45,509 --> 00:07:45,809\n菁姐,您的目標是什麼?\n\n22\n00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:40,427\n委員或獨裁者現在已經沒有人敢說他是委員了就是這個威權的政治領導者那或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質我想這個部分空間是文化部但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識好嗎是那部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎\n\n23\n00:08:41,664 --> 00:08:41,704\n主席\n\n24\n00:08:56,724 --> 00:08:58,506\n不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?\n\n25\n00:09:19,406 --> 00:09:22,469\n謝謝很高興部長知道而且他其實不只是個人的居佑\n\n26\n00:09:37,182 --> 00:09:48,451\n那個建築群就是日治時代的那個就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群本身也是有建築上面的價值加上這個文史價值所以連署就是非常的熱絡那我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子發現有不少問題這個是其中的一個群就是這裡面是有陳其祿的那個故居的\n\n27\n00:10:02,403 --> 00:10:06,547\n他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力開會刊之後云與列冊的可是居然而且107年開會都是持續列冊就是有保存價值可是居然4年後被突襲\n\n28\n00:10:22,102 --> 00:10:48,964\n111年被突襲而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關的行政命令跟手冊沒有規定通知提報人最誇張的是他解列他從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管\n\n29\n00:10:49,665 --> 00:11:11,724\n解裂策是非常重要的解裂案應該要實質討論他用報告案而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕的沒有告訴大家明確的地址所以有程序上的瑕疵這是溫州街這一個建築群的另外一個2468號建築群是另外一位的是曹永和的這個建築群一樣有同樣的\n\n30\n00:11:12,825 --> 00:11:23,334\n五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值\n\n31\n00:11:31,361 --> 00:11:47,007\n所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要的精神它其實違反了因為文化部自己的函式相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神所以這幾個問題\n\n32\n00:11:48,848 --> 00:11:49,108\n文化部部長\n\n33\n00:12:05,768 --> 00:12:06,108\n這第一個可以嗎?那個部長\n\n34\n00:12:24,688 --> 00:12:26,689\n我們目前的法規是沒有救責：范雲\n\n35\n00:12:44,758 --> 00:12:46,418\n主事者認為的台大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突。我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛台鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有\n\n36\n00:13:07,203 --> 00:13:25,257\n眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產\n\n37\n00:13:32,442 --> 00:13:56,570\n是不是應該更率先要好好地保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎\n\n38\n00:13:57,617 --> 00:13:59,300\n謝謝部長,我們一起加油!\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5066\t5386\t謝謝昭偉 有請部長\n13666\t43010\t報告委員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的音樂本身不是跟政治無關\n43950\t53157\t金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務那另外我想我再補充一下\n59042\t59062\t范雲\n89926\t115508\t再回來,因為剛剛我們幾位委員針對中正紀念堂都有很精彩的跟部長的對話那我今天比較想提的是就是我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我今天才知道是我們林益勤委員去質詢的又非常精彩的內容\n116068\t133285\t他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得\n137767\t151890\t行政院專案機場轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚\n154631\t157012\t中正紀念堂促轉會解散後．文化部作為主責機關．負責中正紀念堂轉型轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型\n171761\t192227\t那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方吧所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長\n202736\t231149\t這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊\n232455\t232476\t藍色塊\n234246\t262654\t那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎\n266756\t294546\t這是被已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就臺北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那\n295006\t316257\t那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的\n321239\t342049\t這是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到\n347213\t358102\t廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶\n372473\t396912\t我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程\n398533\t402897\t所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的\n422035\t448593\t那現在大家共同的架子 超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力\n449253\t461165\t辦理相關活動：偵射獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長射展史哲部長展出了想像中正經驗的一百種方式特展再來就是李部長\n465509\t465809\t菁姐,您的目標是什麼?\n496350\t520427\t委員或獨裁者現在已經沒有人敢說他是委員了就是這個威權的政治領導者那或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質我想這個部分空間是文化部但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識好嗎是那部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎\n521664\t521704\t主席\n536724\t538506\t不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?\n559406\t562469\t謝謝很高興部長知道而且他其實不只是個人的居佑\n577182\t588451\t那個建築群就是日治時代的那個就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群本身也是有建築上面的價值加上這個文史價值所以連署就是非常的熱絡那我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子發現有不少問題這個是其中的一個群就是這裡面是有陳其祿的那個故居的\n602403\t606547\t他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力開會刊之後云與列冊的可是居然而且107年開會都是持續列冊就是有保存價值可是居然4年後被突襲\n622102\t648964\t111年被突襲而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關的行政命令跟手冊沒有規定通知提報人最誇張的是他解列他從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管\n649665\t671724\t解裂策是非常重要的解裂案應該要實質討論他用報告案而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕的沒有告訴大家明確的地址所以有程序上的瑕疵這是溫州街這一個建築群的另外一個2468號建築群是另外一位的是曹永和的這個建築群一樣有同樣的\n672825\t683334\t五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值\n691361\t707007\t所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要的精神它其實違反了因為文化部自己的函式相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神所以這幾個問題\n708848\t709108\t文化部部長\n725768\t726108\t這第一個可以嗎?那個部長\n744688\t746689\t我們目前的法規是沒有救責：范雲\n764758\t766418\t主事者認為的台大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突。我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛台鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有\n787203\t805257\t眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產\n812442\t836570\t是不是應該更率先要好好地保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎\n837617\t839300\t謝謝部長,我們一起加油!\n","txt":"謝謝昭偉 有請部長\n報告委員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的音樂本身不是跟政治無關\n金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務那另外我想我再補充一下\n范雲\n再回來,因為剛剛我們幾位委員針對中正紀念堂都有很精彩的跟部長的對話那我今天比較想提的是就是我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我今天才知道是我們林益勤委員去質詢的又非常精彩的內容\n他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得\n行政院專案機場轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚\n中正紀念堂促轉會解散後．文化部作為主責機關．負責中正紀念堂轉型轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型\n那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方吧所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長\n這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊\n藍色塊\n那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎\n這是被已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就臺北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那\n那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的\n這是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到\n廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶\n我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程\n所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的\n那現在大家共同的架子 超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力\n辦理相關活動：偵射獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長射展史哲部長展出了想像中正經驗的一百種方式特展再來就是李部長\n菁姐,您的目標是什麼?\n委員或獨裁者現在已經沒有人敢說他是委員了就是這個威權的政治領導者那或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質我想這個部分空間是文化部但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識好嗎是那部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎\n主席\n不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?\n謝謝很高興部長知道而且他其實不只是個人的居佑\n那個建築群就是日治時代的那個就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群本身也是有建築上面的價值加上這個文史價值所以連署就是非常的熱絡那我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子發現有不少問題這個是其中的一個群就是這裡面是有陳其祿的那個故居的\n他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力開會刊之後云與列冊的可是居然而且107年開會都是持續列冊就是有保存價值可是居然4年後被突襲\n111年被突襲而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關的行政命令跟手冊沒有規定通知提報人最誇張的是他解列他從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管\n解裂策是非常重要的解裂案應該要實質討論他用報告案而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕的沒有告訴大家明確的地址所以有程序上的瑕疵這是溫州街這一個建築群的另外一個2468號建築群是另外一位的是曹永和的這個建築群一樣有同樣的\n五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值\n所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要的精神它其實違反了因為文化部自己的函式相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神所以這幾個問題\n文化部部長\n這第一個可以嗎?那個部長\n我們目前的法規是沒有救責：范雲\n主事者認為的台大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突。我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛台鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有\n眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產\n是不是應該更率先要好好地保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎\n謝謝部長,我們一起加油!\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.066 --> 00:05.386\n謝謝昭偉有請部長\n\n00:13.666 --> 00:43.010\n報告委員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的音樂本身不是跟政治無關\n\n00:43.950 --> 00:53.157\n金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務那另外我想我再補充一下\n\n00:59.042 --> 00:59.062\n范雲\n\n01:29.926 --> 01:55.508\n再回來,因為剛剛我們幾位委員針對中正紀念堂都有很精彩的跟部長的對話那我今天比較想提的是就是我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我今天才知道是我們林益勤委員去質詢的又非常精彩的內容\n\n01:56.068 --> 02:13.285\n他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得\n\n02:17.767 --> 02:31.890\n行政院專案機場轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚\n\n02:34.631 --> 02:37.012\n中正紀念堂促轉會解散後．文化部作為主責機關．負責中正紀念堂轉型轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型\n\n02:51.761 --> 03:12.227\n那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方吧所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長\n\n03:22.736 --> 03:51.149\n這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊\n\n03:52.455 --> 03:52.476\n藍色塊\n\n03:54.246 --> 04:22.654\n那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎\n\n04:26.756 --> 04:54.546\n這是被已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就臺北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那\n\n04:55.006 --> 05:16.257\n那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的\n\n05:21.239 --> 05:42.049\n這是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到\n\n05:47.213 --> 05:58.102\n廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶\n\n06:12.473 --> 06:36.912\n我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程\n\n06:38.533 --> 06:42.897\n所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的\n\n07:02.035 --> 07:28.593\n那現在大家共同的架子超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力\n\n07:29.253 --> 07:41.165\n辦理相關活動：偵射獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長射展史哲部長展出了想像中正經驗的一百種方式特展再來就是李部長\n\n07:45.509 --> 07:45.809\n菁姐,您的目標是什麼?\n\n08:16.350 --> 08:40.427\n委員或獨裁者現在已經沒有人敢說他是委員了就是這個威權的政治領導者那或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質我想這個部分空間是文化部但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識好嗎是那部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎\n\n08:41.664 --> 08:41.704\n主席\n\n08:56.724 --> 08:58.506\n不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?\n\n09:19.406 --> 09:22.469\n謝謝很高興部長知道而且他其實不只是個人的居佑\n\n09:37.182 --> 09:48.451\n那個建築群就是日治時代的那個就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群本身也是有建築上面的價值加上這個文史價值所以連署就是非常的熱絡那我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子發現有不少問題這個是其中的一個群就是這裡面是有陳其祿的那個故居的\n\n10:02.403 --> 10:06.547\n他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力開會刊之後云與列冊的可是居然而且107年開會都是持續列冊就是有保存價值可是居然4年後被突襲\n\n10:22.102 --> 10:48.964\n111年被突襲而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關的行政命令跟手冊沒有規定通知提報人最誇張的是他解列他從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管\n\n10:49.665 --> 11:11.724\n解裂策是非常重要的解裂案應該要實質討論他用報告案而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕的沒有告訴大家明確的地址所以有程序上的瑕疵這是溫州街這一個建築群的另外一個2468號建築群是另外一位的是曹永和的這個建築群一樣有同樣的\n\n11:12.825 --> 11:23.334\n五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值\n\n11:31.361 --> 11:47.007\n所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要的精神它其實違反了因為文化部自己的函式相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神所以這幾個問題\n\n11:48.848 --> 11:49.108\n文化部部長\n\n12:05.768 --> 12:06.108\n這第一個可以嗎?那個部長\n\n12:24.688 --> 12:26.689\n我們目前的法規是沒有救責：范雲\n\n12:44.758 --> 12:46.418\n主事者認為的台大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突。我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛台鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有\n\n13:07.203 --> 13:25.257\n眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產\n\n13:32.442 --> 13:56.570\n是不是應該更率先要好好地保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎\n\n13:57.617 --> 13:59.300\n謝謝部長,我們一起加油!\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.066,"end":5.386,"text":"謝謝昭偉 有請部長"},{"start":13.666,"end":43.01,"text":"報告委員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的音樂本身不是跟政治無關"},{"start":43.95,"end":53.157,"text":"金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務那另外我想我再補充一下"},{"start":59.042,"end":59.062,"text":"范雲"},{"start":89.926,"end":115.508,"text":"再回來,因為剛剛我們幾位委員針對中正紀念堂都有很精彩的跟部長的對話那我今天比較想提的是就是我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我今天才知道是我們林益勤委員去質詢的又非常精彩的內容"},{"start":116.068,"end":133.285,"text":"他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得"},{"start":137.767,"end":151.89,"text":"行政院專案機場轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚"},{"start":154.631,"end":157.012,"text":"中正紀念堂促轉會解散後．文化部作為主責機關．負責中正紀念堂轉型轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型"},{"start":171.761,"end":192.227,"text":"那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方吧所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長"},{"start":202.736,"end":231.149,"text":"這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊"},{"start":232.455,"end":232.476,"text":"藍色塊"},{"start":234.246,"end":262.654,"text":"那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎"},{"start":266.756,"end":294.546,"text":"這是被已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就臺北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那"},{"start":295.006,"end":316.257,"text":"那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的"},{"start":321.239,"end":342.049,"text":"這是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到"},{"start":347.213,"end":358.102,"text":"廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶"},{"start":372.473,"end":396.912,"text":"我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程"},{"start":398.533,"end":402.897,"text":"所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的"},{"start":422.035,"end":448.593,"text":"那現在大家共同的架子 超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力"},{"start":449.253,"end":461.165,"text":"辦理相關活動：偵射獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長射展史哲部長展出了想像中正經驗的一百種方式特展再來就是李部長"},{"start":465.509,"end":465.809,"text":"菁姐,您的目標是什麼?"},{"start":496.35,"end":520.427,"text":"委員或獨裁者現在已經沒有人敢說他是委員了就是這個威權的政治領導者那或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質我想這個部分空間是文化部但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識好嗎是那部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎"},{"start":521.664,"end":521.704,"text":"主席"},{"start":536.724,"end":538.506,"text":"不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?"},{"start":559.406,"end":562.469,"text":"謝謝很高興部長知道而且他其實不只是個人的居佑"},{"start":577.182,"end":588.451,"text":"那個建築群就是日治時代的那個就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群本身也是有建築上面的價值加上這個文史價值所以連署就是非常的熱絡那我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子發現有不少問題這個是其中的一個群就是這裡面是有陳其祿的那個故居的"},{"start":602.403,"end":606.547,"text":"他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力開會刊之後云與列冊的可是居然而且107年開會都是持續列冊就是有保存價值可是居然4年後被突襲"},{"start":622.102,"end":648.964,"text":"111年被突襲而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關的行政命令跟手冊沒有規定通知提報人最誇張的是他解列他從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管"},{"start":649.665,"end":671.724,"text":"解裂策是非常重要的解裂案應該要實質討論他用報告案而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕的沒有告訴大家明確的地址所以有程序上的瑕疵這是溫州街這一個建築群的另外一個2468號建築群是另外一位的是曹永和的這個建築群一樣有同樣的"},{"start":672.825,"end":683.334,"text":"五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值"},{"start":691.361,"end":707.007,"text":"所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要的精神它其實違反了因為文化部自己的函式相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神所以這幾個問題"},{"start":708.848,"end":709.108,"text":"文化部部長"},{"start":725.768,"end":726.108,"text":"這第一個可以嗎?那個部長"},{"start":744.688,"end":746.689,"text":"我們目前的法規是沒有救責：范雲"},{"start":764.758,"end":766.418,"text":"主事者認為的台大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突。我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛台鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有"},{"start":787.203,"end":805.257,"text":"眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產"},{"start":812.442,"end":836.57,"text":"是不是應該更率先要好好地保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎"},{"start":837.617,"end":839.3,"text":"謝謝部長,我們一起加油!"}]}}}}