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12:36:27","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:29:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:36:27+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（12時29分）謝謝陳雪生召委。請次長還有杜董事長。"],["主席：請次長還有杜董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：我先請教杜董事長。臺鐵因為員工與董事長積極努力，我看2024年1至3月的月平均搭乘人數已經到達65萬人次，這個已經超過疫情之前的同期水準，其實搭乘的人數這麼多，安全還是臺鐵首要負起的最重要基本責任。我記得2013年在交通委員會，我就針對當時的土石流狀況積極要求臺鐵，在容易發生土石流的地點以及隧道口等等，必須裝設相關的邊坡落石或土石流的偵測系統，這幾年也逐步的實施了。但是6月21日我們看到崇德與和仁間的西正線，因為大清水溪的土石流衝擊到平台之後，覆蓋在和仁隧道口，導致司機緊急剎車，造成了火車的出軌、也造成了司機員的手部骨折及8名旅客輕傷的狀況，讓旅客對於臺鐵的安全又起了擔憂。","雖然交通委員會在6月27日當天排的是智慧港口的議題，但是我就提起6月21日發生的相關事件，也想起2013年我所提的邊坡隧道土石流相關的偵測系統。當時我還不知道有所謂19分鐘的爭議議題，在我提的時候還特別請教臺鐵工務處的處長，一個監看人員要看十幾個螢幕，這樣人力夠嗎？他還說足夠了。我嚇了一跳！一個人要監看十幾個螢幕，他居然還說人力足夠！一天好像是兩班，是不是？杜董事長說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，其實剛剛委員提及的監看人員，主要是在我們現場工務段的值班室。"],["李委員昆澤：在行控中心嘛！"],["杜董事長微：行控中心就更多，它有275台攝影機。因此，不管是行控中心或是值班室，就落石告警的部分，它必須要有一個告警的作用，才能夠提醒監看人員去注意那台告警的攝影機。但是，對於監看土石流的攝影機，我們的機制不是這樣，我們的機制是看雨量、看雨量，雨量到達一個預警值的時候，我們的段長或副段長就會通知監看人員，把畫面調出來仔細監看。"],["李委員昆澤：這樣的機制更有問題了！"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["李委員昆澤：你說要看雨量，而且是有告警之後，你們才會去注意相關的監視系統，明明土石流都要崩下來了，我們的反應機制及相關的告警系統都沒辦法起作用嗎？這樣旅客的安全，19分鐘，不是1.9秒耶！不是高鐵緊急煞車只要2秒就能煞停的時間，這是個謬誤的說法耶！來，說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，我們現在已經增設電視機的畫面，要求針對土石流這一塊必須常態在畫面上，讓監控人員方便觀看及監視。另外，我們也增加了監看人員。"],["李委員昆澤：董事長，我的心情是蠻沉重的！在2013年我就提議相關的隧道要注意相關路段的土石流及邊坡落石等等，經過了十年以上的時間，還是發生了這麼大的漏洞，這個必須要有更具體的作為啦！董事長，你的責任很大，必須要承擔起這樣的責任、必須把相關安全系統的建置完成。現在月平均搭乘的人數已經達到65萬人次以上，65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況、出問題的。次長，說明一下。"],["伍次長勝園：很抱歉！對於6月21日發生這樣不幸的事情，真的是很抱歉！我在此代表交通部向社會大眾致歉！其實防落石的部分在隧道口都有做防坍架，過去針對土石流的部分，因為它是一個野溪，所以都是用雨量來監測。但是那一天的情況，其實雨量並不大，與我們過去的經驗不一樣，因此，有了這一次的經驗之後，我們會在那邊做一個土石流的告警，而且我在7月22日之前會把它做完。一旦有土石流發生的時候，將會有一個sensor到監控中心，這時監控中心就會告警，已經差不多要注意這件事情了。那個會自動跳出來，不用再去看這麼小的螢幕，這個部分我們7月……"],["李委員昆澤：杜董事長、次長，現在民眾無法接受、旅客無法接受的是你們明明拍到土石流傾洩而下，大清水溪的土石流覆蓋在相關的隧道口耶！19分鐘耶！然後我們卻告訴民眾因為還要看雨量、還要看告警系統，這樣的安全管理系統是出了很大的問題啊！這個必須要確實的監督改善，否則民眾無法接受、旅客無法接受、我也無法接受，必須要確實的改善，以上。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝召委，下一位請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 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00:02:11,745\n當初我記得在6月27號交通委員會雖然當天排的是智慧港口的這樣的一個議題但是我就提起相關的這6月21號所發生事件那我就想起2013年我所提的這些邊坡、隧道、土石流相關的這些偵測的系統那當時我還不知道有所謂的19分鐘的這樣的一個爭議的議題\n\n7\n00:02:15,509 --> 00:02:42,353\n那我提的時候我還特別請教台鐵的公務處的處長他有來我說一個監看的人員要看十幾個螢幕這樣人力夠嗎他還說足夠我嚇了一跳我看了十幾個這樣的一個螢幕啊竟然你還說人力足夠一天好像是兩班是不是來杜董事長說明一下\n\n8\n00:02:43,584 --> 00:03:01,689\n呃,跟委員報告齁,其實剛剛委員提及的監看的人主要是在我們現場公務段的值班室。在行控中心嘛齁。行控中心的話那更多,那就他有275台攝影機。對。所以不管是行控中心或者是值班室,呃。\n\n9\n00:03:03,630 --> 00:03:23,084\n就落實告警的部分他必須要有一個告警的作用才能夠提醒這個監看的人員去注意那一台告警的攝影機但是我們看土石流的這個攝影機我們的機制不是這樣我們的機制是看雨量\n\n10\n00:03:24,182 --> 00:03:52,285\n看雨量,雨量到達一個預警池的時候那我們段長或副段長就會通知那個監看人員說你現在把畫面雕出來仔細的看那這樣的機制更有問題了那你說要看雨量而且啊是有告警之後你們才會去注意相關的這樣的一個監視系統明明那個土石流崩下來的樣子啊我們一點反應跟機制啊相關的這樣那個告警的作用都沒有辦法起作用嗎\n\n11\n00:03:53,226 --> 00:03:53,246\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n12\n00:04:23,166 --> 00:04:23,266\n主席﹗\n\n13\n00:04:46,110 --> 00:05:07,702\n總市長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的\n\n14\n00:05:11,297 --> 00:05:25,447\n市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的\n\n15\n00:05:26,963 --> 00:05:28,264\n議員廖先翔\n\n16\n00:06:22,703 --> 00:06:45,202\n十九分鐘呢?難道我們來跟民眾說因為我們還要看雨量還要看告警系統。這樣的安全的管理系統是出了很大的問題啊。這個必須啊,要確實的監督改善啊。我們民眾無法接受,旅客無法接受,我也無法接受。要確實的改善。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張偉。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n330\t8890\t市長還有杜董事長我先請教杜董事長\n11894\t32927\t針對台鐵因為台鐵的員工跟董事長大家在積極的努力現在我看2024年的一至三月月平均的搭乘人數已經到達65萬人次這已經是有超過疫情之前的這樣的一個同期的水準\n34267\t61843\t其實搭乘的人數這麼多安全還是我們台鐵所要負起的一個最重要的基本責任所以我記得我在2013年在交通委員會我就針對當時的土石流的狀況就積極的要求台鐵針對土石流以及隧道口等等必須裝設相關的不管是邊坡或者是落石\n62503\t64184\t議員廖先翔等18人擬具〈鐵路法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n90185\t94471\t二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n105755\t131745\t當初我記得在6月27號交通委員會雖然當天排的是智慧港口的這樣的一個議題但是我就提起相關的這6月21號所發生事件那我就想起2013年我所提的這些邊坡、隧道、土石流相關的這些偵測的系統那當時我還不知道有所謂的19分鐘的這樣的一個爭議的議題\n135509\t162353\t那我提的時候我還特別請教台鐵的公務處的處長他有來我說一個監看的人員要看十幾個螢幕這樣人力夠嗎他還說足夠我嚇了一跳我看了十幾個這樣的一個螢幕啊竟然你還說人力足夠一天好像是兩班是不是來杜董事長說明一下\n163584\t181689\t呃,跟委員報告齁,其實剛剛委員提及的監看的人主要是在我們現場公務段的值班室。在行控中心嘛齁。行控中心的話那更多,那就他有275台攝影機。對。所以不管是行控中心或者是值班室,呃。\n183630\t203084\t就落實告警的部分他必須要有一個告警的作用才能夠提醒這個監看的人員去注意那一台告警的攝影機但是我們看土石流的這個攝影機我們的機制不是這樣我們的機制是看雨量\n204182\t232285\t看雨量,雨量到達一個預警池的時候那我們段長或副段長就會通知那個監看人員說你現在把畫面雕出來仔細的看那這樣的機制更有問題了那你說要看雨量而且啊是有告警之後你們才會去注意相關的這樣的一個監視系統明明那個土石流崩下來的樣子啊我們一點反應跟機制啊相關的這樣那個告警的作用都沒有辦法起作用嗎\n233226\t233246\t﹝廣告﹞\n263166\t263266\t主席﹗\n286110\t307702\t總市長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的\n311297\t325447\t市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的\n326963\t328264\t議員廖先翔\n352363\t382363\t﹏﹏\n382703\t405202\t十九分鐘呢?難道我們來跟民眾說因為我們還要看雨量還要看告警系統。這樣的安全的管理系統是出了很大的問題啊。這個必須啊,要確實的監督改善啊。我們民眾無法接受,旅客無法接受,我也無法接受。要確實的改善。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張偉。\n","txt":"市長還有杜董事長我先請教杜董事長\n針對台鐵因為台鐵的員工跟董事長大家在積極的努力現在我看2024年的一至三月月平均的搭乘人數已經到達65萬人次這已經是有超過疫情之前的這樣的一個同期的水準\n其實搭乘的人數這麼多安全還是我們台鐵所要負起的一個最重要的基本責任所以我記得我在2013年在交通委員會我就針對當時的土石流的狀況就積極的要求台鐵針對土石流以及隧道口等等必須裝設相關的不管是邊坡或者是落石\n議員廖先翔等18人擬具〈鐵路法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n當初我記得在6月27號交通委員會雖然當天排的是智慧港口的這樣的一個議題但是我就提起相關的這6月21號所發生事件那我就想起2013年我所提的這些邊坡、隧道、土石流相關的這些偵測的系統那當時我還不知道有所謂的19分鐘的這樣的一個爭議的議題\n那我提的時候我還特別請教台鐵的公務處的處長他有來我說一個監看的人員要看十幾個螢幕這樣人力夠嗎他還說足夠我嚇了一跳我看了十幾個這樣的一個螢幕啊竟然你還說人力足夠一天好像是兩班是不是來杜董事長說明一下\n呃,跟委員報告齁,其實剛剛委員提及的監看的人主要是在我們現場公務段的值班室。在行控中心嘛齁。行控中心的話那更多,那就他有275台攝影機。對。所以不管是行控中心或者是值班室,呃。\n就落實告警的部分他必須要有一個告警的作用才能夠提醒這個監看的人員去注意那一台告警的攝影機但是我們看土石流的這個攝影機我們的機制不是這樣我們的機制是看雨量\n看雨量,雨量到達一個預警池的時候那我們段長或副段長就會通知那個監看人員說你現在把畫面雕出來仔細的看那這樣的機制更有問題了那你說要看雨量而且啊是有告警之後你們才會去注意相關的這樣的一個監視系統明明那個土石流崩下來的樣子啊我們一點反應跟機制啊相關的這樣那個告警的作用都沒有辦法起作用嗎\n﹝廣告﹞\n主席﹗\n總市長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的\n市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的\n議員廖先翔\n﹏﹏\n十九分鐘呢?難道我們來跟民眾說因為我們還要看雨量還要看告警系統。這樣的安全的管理系統是出了很大的問題啊。這個必須啊,要確實的監督改善啊。我們民眾無法接受,旅客無法接受,我也無法接受。要確實的改善。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張偉。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.330 --> 00:08.890\n市長還有杜董事長我先請教杜董事長\n\n00:11.894 --> 00:32.927\n針對台鐵因為台鐵的員工跟董事長大家在積極的努力現在我看2024年的一至三月月平均的搭乘人數已經到達65萬人次這已經是有超過疫情之前的這樣的一個同期的水準\n\n00:34.267 --> 01:01.843\n其實搭乘的人數這麼多安全還是我們台鐵所要負起的一個最重要的基本責任所以我記得我在2013年在交通委員會我就針對當時的土石流的狀況就積極的要求台鐵針對土石流以及隧道口等等必須裝設相關的不管是邊坡或者是落石\n\n01:02.503 --> 01:04.184\n議員廖先翔等18人擬具〈鐵路法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n01:30.185 --> 01:34.471\n二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n01:45.755 --> 02:11.745\n當初我記得在6月27號交通委員會雖然當天排的是智慧港口的這樣的一個議題但是我就提起相關的這6月21號所發生事件那我就想起2013年我所提的這些邊坡、隧道、土石流相關的這些偵測的系統那當時我還不知道有所謂的19分鐘的這樣的一個爭議的議題\n\n02:15.509 --> 02:42.353\n那我提的時候我還特別請教台鐵的公務處的處長他有來我說一個監看的人員要看十幾個螢幕這樣人力夠嗎他還說足夠我嚇了一跳我看了十幾個這樣的一個螢幕啊竟然你還說人力足夠一天好像是兩班是不是來杜董事長說明一下\n\n02:43.584 --> 03:01.689\n呃,跟委員報告齁,其實剛剛委員提及的監看的人主要是在我們現場公務段的值班室。在行控中心嘛齁。行控中心的話那更多,那就他有275台攝影機。對。所以不管是行控中心或者是值班室,呃。\n\n03:03.630 --> 03:23.084\n就落實告警的部分他必須要有一個告警的作用才能夠提醒這個監看的人員去注意那一台告警的攝影機但是我們看土石流的這個攝影機我們的機制不是這樣我們的機制是看雨量\n\n03:24.182 --> 03:52.285\n看雨量,雨量到達一個預警池的時候那我們段長或副段長就會通知那個監看人員說你現在把畫面雕出來仔細的看那這樣的機制更有問題了那你說要看雨量而且啊是有告警之後你們才會去注意相關的這樣的一個監視系統明明那個土石流崩下來的樣子啊我們一點反應跟機制啊相關的這樣那個告警的作用都沒有辦法起作用嗎\n\n03:53.226 --> 03:53.246\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n04:23.166 --> 04:23.266\n主席﹗\n\n04:46.110 --> 05:07.702\n總市長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的\n\n05:11.297 --> 05:25.447\n市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的\n\n05:26.963 --> 05:28.264\n議員廖先翔\n\n06:22.703 --> 06:45.202\n十九分鐘呢?難道我們來跟民眾說因為我們還要看雨量還要看告警系統。這樣的安全的管理系統是出了很大的問題啊。這個必須啊,要確實的監督改善啊。我們民眾無法接受,旅客無法接受,我也無法接受。要確實的改善。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張偉。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.33,"end":8.89,"text":"市長還有杜董事長我先請教杜董事長"},{"start":11.894,"end":32.927,"text":"針對台鐵因為台鐵的員工跟董事長大家在積極的努力現在我看2024年的一至三月月平均的搭乘人數已經到達65萬人次這已經是有超過疫情之前的這樣的一個同期的水準"},{"start":34.267,"end":61.843,"text":"其實搭乘的人數這麼多安全還是我們台鐵所要負起的一個最重要的基本責任所以我記得我在2013年在交通委員會我就針對當時的土石流的狀況就積極的要求台鐵針對土石流以及隧道口等等必須裝設相關的不管是邊坡或者是落石"},{"start":62.503,"end":64.184,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具〈鐵路法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":90.185,"end":94.471,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":105.755,"end":131.745,"text":"當初我記得在6月27號交通委員會雖然當天排的是智慧港口的這樣的一個議題但是我就提起相關的這6月21號所發生事件那我就想起2013年我所提的這些邊坡、隧道、土石流相關的這些偵測的系統那當時我還不知道有所謂的19分鐘的這樣的一個爭議的議題"},{"start":135.509,"end":162.353,"text":"那我提的時候我還特別請教台鐵的公務處的處長他有來我說一個監看的人員要看十幾個螢幕這樣人力夠嗎他還說足夠我嚇了一跳我看了十幾個這樣的一個螢幕啊竟然你還說人力足夠一天好像是兩班是不是來杜董事長說明一下"},{"start":163.584,"end":181.689,"text":"呃,跟委員報告齁,其實剛剛委員提及的監看的人主要是在我們現場公務段的值班室。在行控中心嘛齁。行控中心的話那更多,那就他有275台攝影機。對。所以不管是行控中心或者是值班室,呃。"},{"start":183.63,"end":203.084,"text":"就落實告警的部分他必須要有一個告警的作用才能夠提醒這個監看的人員去注意那一台告警的攝影機但是我們看土石流的這個攝影機我們的機制不是這樣我們的機制是看雨量"},{"start":204.182,"end":232.285,"text":"看雨量,雨量到達一個預警池的時候那我們段長或副段長就會通知那個監看人員說你現在把畫面雕出來仔細的看那這樣的機制更有問題了那你說要看雨量而且啊是有告警之後你們才會去注意相關的這樣的一個監視系統明明那個土石流崩下來的樣子啊我們一點反應跟機制啊相關的這樣那個告警的作用都沒有辦法起作用嗎"},{"start":233.226,"end":233.246,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":263.166,"end":263.266,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":286.11,"end":307.702,"text":"總市長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的"},{"start":311.297,"end":325.447,"text":"市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的"},{"start":326.963,"end":328.264,"text":"議員廖先翔"},{"start":352.363,"end":382.363,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":382.703,"end":405.202,"text":"十九分鐘呢?難道我們來跟民眾說因為我們還要看雨量還要看告警系統。這樣的安全的管理系統是出了很大的問題啊。這個必須啊,要確實的監督改善啊。我們民眾無法接受,旅客無法接受,我也無法接受。要確實的改善。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張偉。"}]}}}}