{"id":154553,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256aed8a58d763b1d16bce876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c5eb4615479df0829c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:05:37 - 09:16:32","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T09:05:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T09:16:32+08:00","duration":655,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":44,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時5分）你好，我們請國安局局長。"],["主席：請國安局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。局長，這一兩個禮拜我們聽到在野黨的立法委員說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器，有沒有聽到類似這樣的情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！知道。"],["陳委員冠廷：有這樣的情資嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：那有沒有掌握到這樣的路由器影響範圍多大？有沒有可能──或者已經被滲透的可能性？相關的資訊是不是有被掌控？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。事實上，對於國軍營區相關的資安問題，我們都非常重視，也透過我們的協調會報請國軍系統、特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用陸製通訊產品的查察。以委員剛剛所提到的案子，基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中，應該都會排除陸製的相關產品，可能這個案子要特別注意的是在履約過程當中，以及在驗收的過程當中，是不是有什麼地方可以再策進？因為這部分國防部已經有對外做一些說明，我們尊重國防部應處的基本原則。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。有相關的情資，我希望可以趕快給國防及外交委員會的委員。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，是！"],["陳委員冠廷：因為這個事件，我想也不是單一事件。第二個部分，最近國軍行車紀錄器的攝影設備，有沒有聽到相關的情資，也使用中國製？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！我們也注意到這個問題，事實上，對於行車紀錄器使用到陸製的產品，確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前，也跟媒體朋友說明，就本局來講，我們已經有查察過相關的狀況，我們局裡面並沒有使用陸製的行車紀錄器，包括外車進入到我們營區，我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車紀錄器，即使他的車輛因為是所謂的電動車，沒有辦法關閉行車紀錄器，我們也都會事前通報，請他更換車輛再到我們營區，或是沒有更換車輛的，到營區門口就必須下車走進來，所以我們對營區的資安管理還算到位。"],["陳委員冠廷：您說是營區，因為我現在聽到包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器，所以我想之後相關的定義，還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的單位，不管是國防部還是相關的單位。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，對！剛剛跟委員說明的是，我們在這部分已經有做一些滿完整的規劃，我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位分享。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才局長您提到營區嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：那我想請問國防院是不是營區？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員指的是國防安全研究院，對！它應該還是在國防部整體的管轄範圍。"],["陳委員冠廷：還是營區嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：我們最近有聽到這一個營區裡面，有來自中國滙豐銀行也是政協的高層進入營區，進入營區的時候錯置他的護照號碼，這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對個案的部分，國防部已經有做一些查處了，我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況，對於這一些相關的類案，我們也會加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的，不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍系統增加一些宣導的機會，避免這樣的狀況將來再度發生。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，因為我剛才提到這幾個案件，一件接著一件，每一件他們不管是採購中國的產品，或者是中國政協的人士直接進入營區，這一些理論上都應該要事先查核、事先排除，但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法，好像還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項，所以只要他們轉述沒有涉及機敏事項，就可以進去、就可以錯置護照號碼嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：以我們局裡面來講，我們一般大概都是從嚴來查核進入營區的管制，那這部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：我還是強調這不是任何一個人的問題，我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位，既然有這個制度，我們就把它遵守。"],["蔡局長明彥：是！應該是這樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：那也不要是因為哪一個研究員怎麼樣，我們不針對哪一個研究員、不針對哪一個人，我們針對的是這件事情，如果要查核就查核，不能由主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項。之前國防部長有提到應該就涉密的內容，而不是說他官階的大小，所以如果可以排除掉，那就排除掉沒有關係，但如果已經有這個制度，那就確實要執行，比方說這個路由器，我覺得就是必須要澈底執行；如果是一些非機敏的設備，現在中國製的設備也很多種，但是跟資訊相關的，你們有相關的情資，請局長務必要分享給其他國防安全相關的部門。"],["蔡局長明彥：對！這是制度面的問題，我們來加強。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個要麻煩。包含矽谷，他們都在加大員工的審查。過去我在日商企業的時候，只是面板產業，還不是半導體產業，當我們進入之前，首先要看我們的身分證，看完身分證之後，我也沒有涉密啊！我只是一個sales啊！為什麼要如此？進入對他們來講智慧財產的核心就是核心，所以他們不管你，包含電腦事先都要先放在管理室，過去我們在商界的時候、在日商工作的時候就是最基本，你進入他們的廠，廠區喔！報車號，然後你要把你身分證提出來，然後你要把你的電腦、手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核，甚至就不能帶進去，我不明白說如果只是過去……那個時候是7年前、8年前，只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實，那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區，特別是國防醫院96%的預算都是國防部提供的，我認為還是有相關的機敏性，當然它是文職人員比較多，我們可以理解，但是見微知著嘛！其他的這些比較重要的營區，我希望未來還是有統一的一套系統……"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分我們會非常注意，就國安局來講，我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準，有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同，然後任何的個資查察也都不能夠讓可能可疑的人士或特殊涉入背景的人士進入到我們的營區，相關經驗我們會跟國防部分享，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。接下來，局長，我想請教一下，中共最近增加國安法令的赴中風險，局長，你認為現在國人赴中旅遊危不危險？應該是這麼講，我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係，沒關係了就可以去嗎？還是其實這個危險程度，您是怎麼去定義的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為在上一屆的立法院專案報告，我們有特別去警示，當時是因為7月1日有中國相關的反間諜法案的推動，以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出，我們還是認為到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的旅遊或經商入境的風險。也跟委員報告一下，從去年到現在，大概已經有15位國人在進入到陸港澳的地區遭到中共的拘留審判，另外有51位國人在入境過程當中遭到中共的留置詢查，我們覺得案例有增加的趨勢，對於整個暴露風險的提高，我想我們尊重權責單位陸委會在這部分把等級升為橙色、橘色的等級。事實上，國際社會包括歐美國家還有最近的應該是兩個禮拜前的韓國，也都有相關提高赴陸旅遊的警示，我想這是國際社會大家都普遍關切的議題。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝，謝謝局長，謝謝這樣子的解釋。其實，我在6月6日的時候，這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的，我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的醫院遭駭，其實最近應該也是這一、兩天，三軍總醫院因為不明的原因故障，所以改人工的方式，相關的情資有沒有掌握到？有沒有是由外部進來的？還是只是單純的內部故障？有沒有聽到相關的情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個案子在第一時間就有進行通報，我們得到的報告內容是排除外力侵害的可能性，可能是內部系統管理的問題，不過我們還是會繼續來查察實際的原因到底是什麼。"],["陳委員冠廷：內部管理的問題，那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然，因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施……"],["陳委員冠廷：關鍵基礎設施，因為這一個在英國倫敦的醫院，我們剛剛提到，6月6日我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了，確實是從外部的因素，現在既然是內部的話，那就剛好可以做好準備，我們看到第一時間，在總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式去做掛號登記，我的意思是說，包含我們的一些重要關鍵基礎設施的話，如果遇到駭客或者是外部侵入的時候，內部的演練是不是要先有一個SOP做好？不知道國安局有沒有提供指引讓這一些相關的部門能夠做……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統，透過我們的國土安全協調會報來進行跨部會的協調，因為國安局也是協調會報的成員，我們會把剛剛委員特別提醒的樣態，在會報當中提醒各部會要繼續來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，因為其實聽局長剛才的說法，如果我們全部都落實的話，基本上之前我們剛剛提到的這些採購上的問題就都不會發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，很多真的是在執行面的問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：也老實跟委員報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試，可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好，因為其實就像你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施，關鍵基礎設施的保護完善，我們現在說很多要用AI的方式、用加入攝影機或者是部署相關的警力，這些其實在最前端之前，如果我們首先確保這些關鍵基礎設施不使用中國的產品，或者是相關的做法都已經先做好，不要說只有規則而沒有辦法去執行，到後端再去執行的話，其實前端的訊息可能就已經流失了，所以這部分我還是希望局長在跨部會協調的時候嚴正的跟這些執行的部門，特別是國防部相關的部門，直接跟他們講清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154553","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.go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{\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 614.417, \"end\": 615.138, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 615.138, \"end\": 615.338, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 615.338, \"end\": 615.518, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 615.518, \"end\": 615.878, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 615.878, \"end\": 616.038, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 616.038, \"end\": 616.239, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 616.239, \"end\": 616.819, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 616.819, \"end\": 617.219, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 617.219, \"end\": 617.519, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 617.519, \"end\": 618.0, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鍵\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 618.0, \"end\": 618.4, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"礎\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 618.4, \"end\": 618.54, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 618.54, \"end\": 618.82, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 618.82, \"end\": 619.061, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 619.061, \"end\": 619.081, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 619.821, \"end\": 619.901, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 619.901, \"end\": 619.941, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 619.941, \"end\": 619.961, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 650.779, \"end\": 650.92, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 650.92, \"end\": 652.309, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 652.309, \"end\": 652.591, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"博\", \"start\": 652.591, \"end\": 652.873, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 652.873, \"end\": 653.155, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 653.155, \"end\": 653.839, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 653.839, \"end\": 653.859, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,404 --> 00:00:06,665\n國安局局長\n\n2\n00:00:15,397 --> 00:00:38,792\n謝謝主席蔡委員早市長好市長這一兩個禮拜我們聽到其實是在野黨的立法委員有說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器有沒有聽到類似這樣的情詞對知道有這樣的情詞嘛對不對對那有沒有掌握到這樣子的路由器的影響範圍多大有沒有可能或者已經被滲透的可能性就是說相關的資訊是不是有被這一個掌控\n\n3\n00:00:39,532 --> 00:00:55,186\n對,事實上對於國軍營區相關的資安的一個問題我們都非常重視那也透過我們的協調匯報請國軍的系統特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用錄製的一些通訊產品的一個查查那以委員剛剛所提到的案子來講\n\n4\n00:00:56,167 --> 00:01:13,160\n基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中應該都會排除錄製的相關的產品那可能這個案子要特別注意的是不是在履約過程當中以及在驗收的過程當中是不是有什麼地方可以再測盡那這部分因為國防部已經有對外做一些說明那我們尊重國防部應處的一些基本的原則\n\n5\n00:01:13,933 --> 00:01:27,900\n好,因為相關的情資的話我希望可以趕快給我們的國防外交委員會的委員,因為這個事件我想也不是單一事件。那第二個部分,最近的國軍行程進入區的攝影設備有沒有聽到相關的情資,也使用中國字。\n\n6\n00:01:28,647 --> 00:01:40,876\n對,我們也注意到這個問題,事實上對於這個行車記錄器使用到錄製的產品確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前也跟媒體的朋友說明,就本局來講,我們已經有查查過相關的一個狀況,那我們局裡面並沒有使用錄製的行車記錄器。\n\n7\n00:01:45,640 --> 00:02:06,650\n那包括外車進入到我們營區,我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器。那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車,沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器,我們也都會事前通報,請他更換車輛再到我們營區。那或是沒有更換車輛,到了營區門口就必須下車走進來。所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位。\n\n8\n00:02:07,403 --> 00:02:33,895\n因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享\n\n9\n00:02:34,395 --> 00:03:01,876\n剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握\n\n10\n00:03:02,376 --> 00:03:29,295\n對因為這部分個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是\n\n11\n00:03:29,955 --> 00:03:50,492\n中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎\n\n12\n00:03:51,850 --> 00:04:17,433\n以我們局面來講我們大概一般都是從嚴來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核\n\n13\n00:04:18,354 --> 00:04:29,967\n不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果\n\n14\n00:04:31,032 --> 00:04:31,092\n陳冠廷\n\n15\n00:04:49,800 --> 00:05:14,406\n務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證\n\n16\n00:05:15,387 --> 00:05:35,285\n看完身份證之後我也沒有要涉密啊為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心就是核心所以他們不管你包含電腦事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候商業界的時候在做這個在日商工作的時候就是最基本的你進入他們的廠廠區喔報車號\n\n17\n00:05:38,291 --> 00:05:59,653\n然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算\n\n18\n00:06:01,935 --> 00:06:25,218\n這是國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是建委之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支\n\n19\n00:06:25,538 --> 00:06:26,379\n中共最近增加國安法令的附中風險\n\n20\n00:06:41,894 --> 00:06:56,233\n局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的\n\n21\n00:06:57,014 --> 00:07:24,208\n對,因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人\n\n22\n00:07:24,668 --> 00:07:24,888\n﹚陳冠廷\n\n23\n00:07:43,524 --> 00:07:47,706\n其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的這個醫院遭害\n\n24\n00:08:11,334 --> 00:08:37,567\n那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼\n\n25\n00:08:37,967 --> 00:09:05,342\n內部管理問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到\n\n26\n00:09:06,442 --> 00:09:13,724\n這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統那透過我們的國土安全協調匯報來進行跨部會的協調那因為國安局也是協調匯報的成員那我們會把剛委員特別提醒的樣態在匯報當中提醒各部會要繼續的來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃\n\n27\n00:09:36,290 --> 00:09:49,340\n謝謝局長因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對很多真的是在執行面的問題對老師跟委員報告\n\n28\n00:09:51,061 --> 00:10:19,081\n所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用\n\n29\n00:10:19,821 --> 00:10:19,961\n謝謝委員提醒\n\n30\n00:10:50,779 --> 00:10:53,859\n接下來請沈博洋委員上臺\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6404\t6665\t國安局局長\n15397\t38792\t謝謝主席 蔡委員早市長好 市長這一兩個禮拜我們聽到其實是在野黨的立法委員有說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器有沒有聽到類似這樣的情詞對 知道有這樣的情詞嘛 對不對對那有沒有掌握到這樣子的路由器的影響範圍多大有沒有可能或者已經被滲透的可能性就是說相關的資訊是不是有被這一個掌控\n39532\t55186\t對,事實上對於國軍營區相關的資安的一個問題我們都非常重視那也透過我們的協調匯報請國軍的系統特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用錄製的一些通訊產品的一個查查那以委員剛剛所提到的案子來講\n56167\t73160\t基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中應該都會排除錄製的相關的產品那可能這個案子要特別注意的是不是在履約過程當中以及在驗收的過程當中是不是有什麼地方可以再測盡那這部分因為國防部已經有對外做一些說明那我們尊重國防部應處的一些基本的原則\n73933\t87900\t好,因為相關的情資的話我希望可以趕快給我們的國防外交委員會的委員,因為這個事件我想也不是單一事件。那第二個部分,最近的國軍行程進入區的攝影設備有沒有聽到相關的情資,也使用中國字。\n88647\t100876\t對,我們也注意到這個問題,事實上對於這個行車記錄器使用到錄製的產品確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前也跟媒體的朋友說明,就本局來講,我們已經有查查過相關的一個狀況,那我們局裡面並沒有使用錄製的行車記錄器。\n105640\t126650\t那包括外車進入到我們營區,我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器。那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車,沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器,我們也都會事前通報,請他更換車輛再到我們營區。那或是沒有更換車輛,到了營區門口就必須下車走進來。所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位。\n127403\t153895\t因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享\n154395\t181876\t剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握\n182376\t209295\t對 因為這部分 個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是\n209955\t230492\t中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎\n231850\t257433\t以我們局面來講我們大概一般都是從嚴來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核\n258354\t269967\t不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果\n271032\t271092\t陳冠廷\n289800\t314406\t務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證\n315387\t335285\t看完身份證之後 我也沒有要涉密啊 為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心 就是核心所以他們不管你 包含電腦事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候 商業界的時候在做這個在日商工作的時候 就是最基本的你進入他們的廠 廠區喔報車號\n338291\t359653\t然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算\n361935\t385218\t這是國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是建委之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支\n385538\t386379\t中共最近增加國安法令的附中風險\n401894\t416233\t局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的\n417014\t444208\t對,因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人\n444668\t444888\t﹚陳冠廷\n463524\t467706\t其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的這個醫院遭害\n491334\t517567\t那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼\n517967\t545342\t內部管理問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到\n546442\t553724\t這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統那透過我們的國土安全協調匯報來進行跨部會的協調那因為國安局也是協調匯報的成員那我們會把剛委員特別提醒的樣態在匯報當中提醒各部會要繼續的來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃\n576290\t589340\t謝謝局長 因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對 很多真的是在執行面的問題對 老師跟委員報告\n591061\t619081\t所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用\n619821\t619961\t謝謝委員提醒\n650779\t653859\t接下來請沈博洋委員上臺\n","txt":"國安局局長\n謝謝主席 蔡委員早市長好 市長這一兩個禮拜我們聽到其實是在野黨的立法委員有說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器有沒有聽到類似這樣的情詞對 知道有這樣的情詞嘛 對不對對那有沒有掌握到這樣子的路由器的影響範圍多大有沒有可能或者已經被滲透的可能性就是說相關的資訊是不是有被這一個掌控\n對,事實上對於國軍營區相關的資安的一個問題我們都非常重視那也透過我們的協調匯報請國軍的系統特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用錄製的一些通訊產品的一個查查那以委員剛剛所提到的案子來講\n基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中應該都會排除錄製的相關的產品那可能這個案子要特別注意的是不是在履約過程當中以及在驗收的過程當中是不是有什麼地方可以再測盡那這部分因為國防部已經有對外做一些說明那我們尊重國防部應處的一些基本的原則\n好,因為相關的情資的話我希望可以趕快給我們的國防外交委員會的委員,因為這個事件我想也不是單一事件。那第二個部分,最近的國軍行程進入區的攝影設備有沒有聽到相關的情資,也使用中國字。\n對,我們也注意到這個問題,事實上對於這個行車記錄器使用到錄製的產品確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前也跟媒體的朋友說明,就本局來講,我們已經有查查過相關的一個狀況,那我們局裡面並沒有使用錄製的行車記錄器。\n那包括外車進入到我們營區,我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器。那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車,沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器,我們也都會事前通報,請他更換車輛再到我們營區。那或是沒有更換車輛,到了營區門口就必須下車走進來。所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位。\n因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享\n剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握\n對 因為這部分 個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是\n中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎\n以我們局面來講我們大概一般都是從嚴來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核\n不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果\n陳冠廷\n務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證\n看完身份證之後 我也沒有要涉密啊 為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心 就是核心所以他們不管你 包含電腦事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候 商業界的時候在做這個在日商工作的時候 就是最基本的你進入他們的廠 廠區喔報車號\n然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算\n這是國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是建委之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支\n中共最近增加國安法令的附中風險\n局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的\n對,因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人\n﹚陳冠廷\n其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的這個醫院遭害\n那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼\n內部管理問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到\n這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統那透過我們的國土安全協調匯報來進行跨部會的協調那因為國安局也是協調匯報的成員那我們會把剛委員特別提醒的樣態在匯報當中提醒各部會要繼續的來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃\n謝謝局長 因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對 很多真的是在執行面的問題對 老師跟委員報告\n所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用\n謝謝委員提醒\n接下來請沈博洋委員上臺\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.404 --> 00:06.665\n國安局局長\n\n00:15.397 --> 00:38.792\n謝謝主席蔡委員早市長好市長這一兩個禮拜我們聽到其實是在野黨的立法委員有說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器有沒有聽到類似這樣的情詞對知道有這樣的情詞嘛對不對對那有沒有掌握到這樣子的路由器的影響範圍多大有沒有可能或者已經被滲透的可能性就是說相關的資訊是不是有被這一個掌控\n\n00:39.532 --> 00:55.186\n對,事實上對於國軍營區相關的資安的一個問題我們都非常重視那也透過我們的協調匯報請國軍的系統特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用錄製的一些通訊產品的一個查查那以委員剛剛所提到的案子來講\n\n00:56.167 --> 01:13.160\n基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中應該都會排除錄製的相關的產品那可能這個案子要特別注意的是不是在履約過程當中以及在驗收的過程當中是不是有什麼地方可以再測盡那這部分因為國防部已經有對外做一些說明那我們尊重國防部應處的一些基本的原則\n\n01:13.933 --> 01:27.900\n好,因為相關的情資的話我希望可以趕快給我們的國防外交委員會的委員,因為這個事件我想也不是單一事件。那第二個部分,最近的國軍行程進入區的攝影設備有沒有聽到相關的情資,也使用中國字。\n\n01:28.647 --> 01:40.876\n對,我們也注意到這個問題,事實上對於這個行車記錄器使用到錄製的產品確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前也跟媒體的朋友說明,就本局來講,我們已經有查查過相關的一個狀況,那我們局裡面並沒有使用錄製的行車記錄器。\n\n01:45.640 --> 02:06.650\n那包括外車進入到我們營區,我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器。那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車,沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器,我們也都會事前通報,請他更換車輛再到我們營區。那或是沒有更換車輛,到了營區門口就必須下車走進來。所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位。\n\n02:07.403 --> 02:33.895\n因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享\n\n02:34.395 --> 03:01.876\n剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握\n\n03:02.376 --> 03:29.295\n對因為這部分個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是\n\n03:29.955 --> 03:50.492\n中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎\n\n03:51.850 --> 04:17.433\n以我們局面來講我們大概一般都是從嚴來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核\n\n04:18.354 --> 04:29.967\n不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果\n\n04:31.032 --> 04:31.092\n陳冠廷\n\n04:49.800 --> 05:14.406\n務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證\n\n05:15.387 --> 05:35.285\n看完身份證之後我也沒有要涉密啊為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心就是核心所以他們不管你包含電腦事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候商業界的時候在做這個在日商工作的時候就是最基本的你進入他們的廠廠區喔報車號\n\n05:38.291 --> 05:59.653\n然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算\n\n06:01.935 --> 06:25.218\n這是國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是建委之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支\n\n06:25.538 --> 06:26.379\n中共最近增加國安法令的附中風險\n\n06:41.894 --> 06:56.233\n局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的\n\n06:57.014 --> 07:24.208\n對,因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人\n\n07:24.668 --> 07:24.888\n﹚陳冠廷\n\n07:43.524 --> 07:47.706\n其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的這個醫院遭害\n\n08:11.334 --> 08:37.567\n那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼\n\n08:37.967 --> 09:05.342\n內部管理問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到\n\n09:06.442 --> 09:13.724\n這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統那透過我們的國土安全協調匯報來進行跨部會的協調那因為國安局也是協調匯報的成員那我們會把剛委員特別提醒的樣態在匯報當中提醒各部會要繼續的來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃\n\n09:36.290 --> 09:49.340\n謝謝局長因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對很多真的是在執行面的問題對老師跟委員報告\n\n09:51.061 --> 10:19.081\n所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用\n\n10:19.821 --> 10:19.961\n謝謝委員提醒\n\n10:50.779 --> 10:53.859\n接下來請沈博洋委員上臺\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.404,"end":6.665,"text":"國安局局長"},{"start":15.397,"end":38.792,"text":"謝謝主席 蔡委員早市長好 市長這一兩個禮拜我們聽到其實是在野黨的立法委員有說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器有沒有聽到類似這樣的情詞對 知道有這樣的情詞嘛 對不對對那有沒有掌握到這樣子的路由器的影響範圍多大有沒有可能或者已經被滲透的可能性就是說相關的資訊是不是有被這一個掌控"},{"start":39.532,"end":55.186,"text":"對,事實上對於國軍營區相關的資安的一個問題我們都非常重視那也透過我們的協調匯報請國軍的系統特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用錄製的一些通訊產品的一個查查那以委員剛剛所提到的案子來講"},{"start":56.167,"end":73.16,"text":"基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中應該都會排除錄製的相關的產品那可能這個案子要特別注意的是不是在履約過程當中以及在驗收的過程當中是不是有什麼地方可以再測盡那這部分因為國防部已經有對外做一些說明那我們尊重國防部應處的一些基本的原則"},{"start":73.933,"end":87.9,"text":"好,因為相關的情資的話我希望可以趕快給我們的國防外交委員會的委員,因為這個事件我想也不是單一事件。那第二個部分,最近的國軍行程進入區的攝影設備有沒有聽到相關的情資,也使用中國字。"},{"start":88.647,"end":100.876,"text":"對,我們也注意到這個問題,事實上對於這個行車記錄器使用到錄製的產品確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前也跟媒體的朋友說明,就本局來講,我們已經有查查過相關的一個狀況,那我們局裡面並沒有使用錄製的行車記錄器。"},{"start":105.64,"end":126.65,"text":"那包括外車進入到我們營區,我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器。那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車,沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器,我們也都會事前通報,請他更換車輛再到我們營區。那或是沒有更換車輛,到了營區門口就必須下車走進來。所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位。"},{"start":127.403,"end":153.895,"text":"因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享"},{"start":154.395,"end":181.876,"text":"剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握"},{"start":182.376,"end":209.295,"text":"對 因為這部分 個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是"},{"start":209.955,"end":230.492,"text":"中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎"},{"start":231.85,"end":257.433,"text":"以我們局面來講我們大概一般都是從嚴來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核"},{"start":258.354,"end":269.967,"text":"不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果"},{"start":271.032,"end":271.092,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":289.8,"end":314.406,"text":"務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證"},{"start":315.387,"end":335.285,"text":"看完身份證之後 我也沒有要涉密啊 為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心 就是核心所以他們不管你 包含電腦事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候 商業界的時候在做這個在日商工作的時候 就是最基本的你進入他們的廠 廠區喔報車號"},{"start":338.291,"end":359.653,"text":"然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算"},{"start":361.935,"end":385.218,"text":"這是國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是建委之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支"},{"start":385.538,"end":386.379,"text":"中共最近增加國安法令的附中風險"},{"start":401.894,"end":416.233,"text":"局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的"},{"start":417.014,"end":444.208,"text":"對,因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人"},{"start":444.668,"end":444.888,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":463.524,"end":467.706,"text":"其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的這個醫院遭害"},{"start":491.334,"end":517.567,"text":"那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":517.967,"end":545.342,"text":"內部管理問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到"},{"start":546.442,"end":553.724,"text":"這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統那透過我們的國土安全協調匯報來進行跨部會的協調那因為國安局也是協調匯報的成員那我們會把剛委員特別提醒的樣態在匯報當中提醒各部會要繼續的來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃"},{"start":576.29,"end":589.34,"text":"謝謝局長 因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對 很多真的是在執行面的問題對 老師跟委員報告"},{"start":591.061,"end":619.081,"text":"所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用"},{"start":619.821,"end":619.961,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":650.779,"end":653.859,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上臺"}]}}}}