{"id":154556,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a31d2425c9a919d32ce876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c5ecd8931174c5d59a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:37:42 - 09:51:27","影片長度":"00:13:45","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T09:37:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T09:51:27+08:00","duration":825,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":180,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我們請國安局、陸委會、文化部。"],["主席：好，請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政次，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早。自由時報報導的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了，全國人民都在看，當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假？是不是假新聞，影響臺灣人民對於事情的判斷？","我要先問一件事情。先問一下我們國安局長好了，沈伯洋委員說有跟國安局通報，是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：他沒有說跟國安局通報。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：他沒有說國安局。"],["徐委員巧芯：那他是跟誰通報？"],["蔡局長明彥：他是說國安單位。"],["徐委員巧芯：國安單位是怎樣？國安會？國安單位有哪一些？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要由沈委員去對外說明他怎麼通報，對國安局來講……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈伯洋委員的通報？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局不會針對我們的情訊來源對外說明，這是法律規定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他講說他有找你們嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有講找我們。"],["徐委員巧芯：他講「國安單位」……"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以沒有找國安局？"],["蔡局長明彥：有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位，應該由沈委員來對外說明，就國安局來講，我們的情訊來源不會對外說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為你說你不能對外說明，所以我假設你有接到這個陳情案件，後續國安局有沒有做任何處置、處理或調查？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題，但我們已經有對外說明過……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我問的是，在這件事情被報導出來之後的兩個月內，國安局有沒有針對所謂的盯梢案做過任何調查？我這樣問。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，這個問題我們在上個禮拜的專案報告也有對外公開說明，也就是說，我們有接到相關的……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼時候接到？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們之前就有接到。"],["徐委員巧芯：「之前」是多久之前？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們沒有辦法對外說明，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為已經送到調查局立案偵辦了。另外……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們是在兩個月前就知道了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：另外，因為有媒體人把這個案子提告了，檢察官也在偵辦，所以案子……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不能什麼都推給檢察官嘛！我問你的是，如果你在兩個月前就知道了，那為什麼5月的時候還可以讓趙博離開臺灣？你們是在趙博離開臺灣之前知道、掌握情報了，還是在他離開以後？"],["蔡局長明彥：也就是我們有相關的資訊，因為國安局並沒有司法調查權，我們要是有這樣的資訊，必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關的違法事實跟相關的事證，這要交給檢調單位去處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們瞭解這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：國安局接到資訊的時候，是在趙博離開臺灣以前還是離開臺灣以後？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一開始接到就已經通報到調查局來進行偵辦了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你還是沒有回答我的問題啊！以前還是以後？這差別很大耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這就由檢調單位來釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：給檢調單位？所以你們是死都不說就對了！好，沒關係。接下來本席要請教陸委會還有文化部。這一篇新聞裡面寫到有關「資深媒體人」的報導，認為你們已經去向自由時報詢問「資深媒體人」是誰了嗎？有沒有向自由時報詢問他們報導裡面所稱呼的「資深媒體人」是哪一位呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，因為我們陸委會跟文化部主管的部分就是邀請單位和被邀請的新華社記者，所以這兩個單位我們都有問……"],["徐委員巧芯：你都問了？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是自由時報的部分，我們是另外詢問……"],["徐委員巧芯：另外詢問？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：確實有詢問。"],["徐委員巧芯：那資深媒體人是哪一位，它有告訴你嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：自由時報表示他們所報的新聞都有所本，而且經過合理的查證，基於新聞倫理，它不便透露消息來源……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以即便跟國安相關的事情，國安局長，當我們陸委會現在要調查，自由時報說它要保護它的新聞來源，可是它是一個國安問題的時候，我們也無法可管？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查，我剛剛跟委員報告，檢調在進行的是司法調查……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以陸委會副主委再回來，所以它不告訴你資深媒體人是誰，它只告訴你說有所本？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：它不會透露消息來源，我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問它指涉的新聞臺，來，我們看一下現在有哪些新聞臺，它指涉的新聞臺是哪一臺？就你們現在所瞭解的、所掌握的，已經13天了，不要告訴我這些新聞臺裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們當然知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一家？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就是東森新聞臺。"],["徐委員巧芯：東森新聞臺？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：他們指控的是東森新聞臺，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是他們指控啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞臺裡面，有一名記者來自新華社，叫做趙博，混在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說要講什麼，然後跟製作單位說要講什麼，它的意思是這樣，就你們現在的掌握，對吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下，前面這張圖是我去找到的東森攝影棚，棚內就是長這樣，FD副控室在這裡，所有的包含主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡，我個人上過這麼多次東森節目，包含被指控的那個，我個人從來沒有看過，所以我想要請問陸委會，現在自由時報所指控的趙博當時是站在哪裡？你們有沒有去調查這個案情？他是站在哪裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以我們有向東森新聞臺詢問過。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，然後呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證，但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，這我都知道啊！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我要問的是你們向自由時報……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以就陸委會跟文化部所做的行政調查，只能夠……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，但是你們有沒有問自由時報，他們在這些內容裡面寫到的、這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嘛？對不起，我要走過來，他可能是在來賓這邊、他可能是在主持人這邊、他可能在場外這邊、他可能在FD副控室這邊，你們今天既然要做行政調查，你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題？這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係喔！我們只是想問這個趙博在自由時報的指控當中，他站在哪裡指揮？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，我想我們都很清楚，媒體不會去回答我們這樣的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為它要保護新聞來源，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有新聞來源的問題！我們是問它所指控的、它裡面寫得很清楚喔！它說趙博會去跟來賓說要去……你看！這裡講什麼──對來賓名單指手畫腳，此人也在棚內，來，我們看一下棚內，棚內就長這樣，一個外面、一個裡面，哪一個是他們指涉的棚內？這個難道我們的陸委會不能去問嗎？文化部不能去問嗎？這跟新聞保護來源有什麼關係？它新聞裡面都寫成這樣了！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果司法跟檢調有在調查的話，我想他們會去釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你行政調查呢？你們不是在做行政調查嗎？沒有問這個問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：行政調查的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：你自己上過這麼多節目的人，你沒有問過這個問題嗎？你沒有想過這個問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：行政調查的部分，我們確實權限非常有限。"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有問它這個問題，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，沒有問過。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你有沒有考慮再問它這個問題？我現在直接問你，你們有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內，是在這裡還是在這裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，這個案件的細節我想已經超出行政調查的權限……"],["徐委員巧芯：問這個也超出？我們再看一下前面的報導，我不能接受你的回答！它這裡寫什麼？此人在棚內，逐一介紹來賓是否照著腳本走，準備的CG有無照原來的計畫，跟來賓指手畫腳，向來賓轉達希望講的角度。","來！下一張，所以很簡單嘛！控制CG的在這裡，對不對？來賓在這裡，對不對？你有沒有問過它它當天新聞寫的報導，這個所謂的大陸人，我不管他是不是趙博，他在哪裡出現的？這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎？這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢？你都說你去問過它資深媒體人是誰，你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞，那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問它趙博站在哪裡？可不可以補問？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我希望由司法單位來釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？你們在保護什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不，這個已經超出我們的調查範圍……"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼超出？超出在哪裡？超出在哪裡？你跟我說，超出在哪裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就算我們去問，他們也不會回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你也要問啊！你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答，你就不問了啊！你是做行政調查的人，我可以假設對方不回答的問題，我就不問它嗎？就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰，但它不講嗎！我今天問的問題很簡單，你們忘記問也就算了，你今天不問它這個問題，到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞說要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，您剛才提示的這些是有關案件的細節……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是細節，它自由時報……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：細節的部分我覺得由司法單位來釐清會比較好……"],["徐委員巧芯：抱歉！不是細節！它新聞就有寫了嘛！它新聞自己寫得這麼清楚，然後你們還不問？這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛？這就是很奇怪的一件事，到底在保護誰？","好，文化部，如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞，這已經是第13天了，你們政府有夠無能的，13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞，請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話要如何處置？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞，第二……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說如果是假的話……"],["王次長時思：第二，我們會針對，如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情，我們會撤銷他的記者證，同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點記者的申請會……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞，我們的文化部該如何處理，你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導是假新聞……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果碰到任何一家媒體，不要講自由時報，任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候，文化部要做什麼處理？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，文化部並沒有管理媒體，目前臺灣的媒體是屬於新聞自由的狀態……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以沒事？假新聞都沒事？"],["王次長時思：所以媒體要……"],["徐委員巧芯：NCC至少還會管一下，所以報紙沒關係？報紙可以造謠？"],["王次長時思：NCC是媒體的主管機關……"],["徐委員巧芯：還是NCC可以管？NCC可以管這個嗎？"],["王次長時思：委員，我想媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假，如果是假的……"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！不是，我告訴你，是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅，寫假新聞的人可不在意啊！我要請問NCC可以管這個嗎？"],["王次長時思：NCC……"],["徐委員巧芯：NCC來！你可以管這個嗎？假新聞的話。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好，我們只針對廣電三法規……"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！廣電三法，文化部再回來，我最後問你，現在我不講自由時報，如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞，文化部怎麼辦？相關的法律依據在哪裡？要如何懲罰？"],["王次長時思：還是跟委員說明，目前臺灣是屬於言論自由的狀態……"],["徐委員巧芯：言論自由包含假新聞嗎！"],["王次長時思：所以它的新聞內容如果有傷害了……譬如傷害了國安，就會依照國安的方式……"],["徐委員巧芯：傷害了其它電視臺、傷害了民間企業呢？"],["王次長時思：所以要看它傷害的利益者是誰，按照它所傷害的損害利益去進行追訴跟賠償……"],["徐委員巧芯：那誰要負責追訴？要怎麼追訴？"],["王次長時思：看當事人所侵害的利益是誰的利益，就由誰來做利益……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以文化部會罰錢？罰則、相關的法律規定拿出來……"],["王次長時思：不會，文化部並不是媒體的主管機關，所以它要依據……"],["徐委員巧芯：那誰是？所以現在報紙寫了……假設報紙寫了假新聞，有什麼法條可以讓他們負責？"],["王次長時思：依據它所損害的利益來做權利主張的那一方，誰的利益被損害……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以就是東森自己去告嘛？假設這個是假新聞，你們不會做任何……"],["王次長時思：如果真的有人因為……因此造成利益損害的話，的確是由權利的當事人去……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以文化部沒有任處置的辦法嗎？"],["王次長時思：文化部不是媒體的主管機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎？都叫來這麼多人了，來！如果有的話回答一下，好不好？沒有嘛！所以這就是為什麼報紙開始寫假新聞的原因嘛！我的問題就問到這裡，但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情，NCC至少有針對內容在管制，它有一個SOP，不管我們認同或不認同，今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的、調查不到的、很多問題沒有問的，寫了假新聞的，在中華民國無法可管，這就是我覺得最劣質、最糟糕的情況，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了。","接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154556","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154556","tool":"pyannote","id":"154556-pyannote"},"job_id":"HODg0vyBbQo9a5dZ","queued_at":"2024-07-08 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\"以\", \"start\": 714.164, \"end\": 714.184, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 714.184, \"end\": 714.204, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 714.204, \"end\": 714.224, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 714.224, \"end\": 714.244, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}]}, {\"start\": 744.179, \"end\": 746.66, \"text\": \"對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 744.179, \"end\": 744.199, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 744.199, \"end\": 744.219, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 744.219, \"end\": 744.479, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 744.479, \"end\": 744.499, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 744.499, \"end\": 744.519, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 744.519, \"end\": 744.819, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, 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\"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 762.906, \"end\": 762.926, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 762.926, \"end\": 763.086, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 763.086, \"end\": 763.167, \"score\": 0.55}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 763.167, \"end\": 763.287, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 763.287, \"end\": 763.387, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 763.387, \"end\": 763.407, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 763.407, \"end\": 763.567, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 763.567, \"end\": 763.667, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 763.667, \"end\": 763.747, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 763.747, \"end\": 763.847, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 763.847, \"end\": 763.887, \"score\": 0.402}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 763.887, \"end\": 763.907, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 763.907, \"end\": 764.087, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 764.087, \"end\": 764.207, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 764.207, \"end\": 764.227, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 764.227, \"end\": 764.287, \"score\": 0.473}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 764.287, \"end\": 764.507, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 764.507, \"end\": 764.647, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 764.647, \"end\": 764.667, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 764.667, \"end\": 764.727, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 764.727, \"end\": 764.767, \"score\": 0.258}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 764.767, \"end\": 764.787, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 764.787, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 821.896, \"end\": 821.956, \"score\": 0.55}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 821.956, \"end\": 821.976, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,690 --> 00:00:09,978\n謝謝主席,我們請國安局陸委會、文化部好,請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政策,謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:12,281 --> 00:00:40,338\n好謝謝主席徐委員早早這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局\n\n3\n00:00:41,258 --> 00:01:05,072\n那他是跟誰通報?他說國安單位。國安單位是怎樣?國安會?國安單位有哪一些?只要有省委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定。因為他講說他有找你們嗎?沒有講找我們。他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局?\n\n4\n00:01:06,053 --> 00:01:23,643\n有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但\n\n5\n00:01:25,425 --> 00:01:37,835\n所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在\n\n6\n00:01:40,797 --> 00:02:08,282\n上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嗎我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣\n\n7\n00:02:10,983 --> 00:02:31,040\n你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?\n\n8\n00:02:36,244 --> 00:02:47,087\n我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎\n\n9\n00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:10,227\n有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?\n\n10\n00:03:11,190 --> 00:03:38,333\n跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本\n\n11\n00:03:39,329 --> 00:03:57,163\n而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管\n\n12\n00:03:58,143 --> 00:04:10,629\n陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查所以陸委會主委再回復主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本\n\n13\n00:04:11,441 --> 00:04:33,585\n他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣那請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家\n\n14\n00:04:35,101 --> 00:04:59,759\n就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下\n\n15\n00:05:02,605 --> 00:05:07,246\n這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔\n\n16\n00:05:25,372 --> 00:05:40,312\n現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過\n\n17\n00:05:43,517 --> 00:05:57,918\n他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報\n\n18\n00:05:58,739 --> 00:06:02,681\n我知道,但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在,對不起我要走過來\n\n19\n00:06:15,185 --> 00:06:26,797\n他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮\n\n20\n00:06:39,318 --> 00:06:57,867\n委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內\n\n21\n00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:05,151\n那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?\n\n22\n00:07:27,725 --> 00:07:32,529\n沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?\n\n23\n00:07:54,743 --> 00:08:12,691\n報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張\n\n24\n00:08:21,328 --> 00:08:23,641\n所以很簡單嘛控制CG的在這裡嘛對不對\n\n25\n00:08:25,782 --> 00:08:35,247\n來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡\n\n26\n00:08:55,897 --> 00:09:09,800\n可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答\n\n27\n00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:37,829\n你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞之後要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞\n\n28\n00:09:39,173 --> 00:09:46,676\n報告委員您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節他自由時報抱歉不是細節他新聞就有寫了嘛他新聞自己寫得這麼清楚然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事到底在保護誰好文化部\n\n29\n00:10:02,185 --> 00:10:11,635\n如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞這已經是第13天了你們政府有夠無能的13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話\n\n30\n00:10:25,523 --> 00:10:49,298\n第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞\n\n31\n00:10:49,738 --> 00:10:57,447\n如果碰到任何一家媒體不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候文化部要做什麼處理\n\n32\n00:10:59,124 --> 00:11:10,593\n跟委員說明,文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係,報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊,不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問,那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?\n\n33\n00:11:30,067 --> 00:11:52,573\nNCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰\n\n34\n00:11:54,104 --> 00:11:54,244\n所以文化部會罰錢\n\n35\n00:12:24,179 --> 00:12:26,660\n對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方\n\n36\n00:12:41,486 --> 00:12:45,027\n所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?\n\n37\n00:13:05,134 --> 00:13:34,026\n沒有嘛!所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝\n\n38\n00:13:37,428 --> 00:13:41,976\n這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n690\t9978\t謝謝主席,我們請國安局陸委會、文化部好,請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政策,謝謝\n12281\t40338\t好 謝謝主席徐委員早早 這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局\n41258\t65072\t那他是跟誰通報?他說國安單位。國安單位是怎樣?國安會?國安單位有哪一些?只要有省委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定。因為他講說他有找你們嗎?沒有講找我們。他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局?\n66053\t83643\t有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但\n85425\t97835\t所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在\n100797\t128282\t上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嗎我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣\n130983\t151040\t你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?\n156244\t167087\t我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎\n184520\t190227\t有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?\n191190\t218333\t跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本\n219329\t237163\t而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管\n238143\t250629\t陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查所以陸委會主委再回復主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本\n251441\t273585\t他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣那請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家\n275101\t299759\t就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下\n302605\t307246\t這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔\n325372\t340312\t現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過\n343517\t357918\t他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是 這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報\n358739\t362681\t我知道,但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在,對不起我要走過來\n375185\t386797\t他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮\n399318\t417867\t委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內\n424450\t425151\t那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?\n447725\t452529\t沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?\n474743\t492691\t報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張\n501328\t503641\t所以很簡單嘛 控制CG的在這裡嘛 對不對\n505782\t515247\t來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡\n535897\t549800\t可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答\n551920\t577829\t你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞之後要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞\n579173\t586676\t報告委員 您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節 他自由時報 抱歉不是細節 他新聞就有寫了嘛他新聞自己寫得這麼清楚 然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事 到底在保護誰好 文化部\n602185\t611635\t如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞這已經是第13天了你們政府有夠無能的13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話\n625523\t649298\t第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞\n649738\t657447\t如果碰到任何一家媒體不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候文化部要做什麼處理\n659124\t670593\t跟委員說明,文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係,報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊,不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問,那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?\n690067\t712573\tNCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰\n714104\t714244\t所以文化部會罰錢\n744179\t746660\t對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方\n761486\t765027\t所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?\n785134\t814026\t沒有嘛!所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝\n817428\t821976\t這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們請國安局陸委會、文化部好,請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政策,謝謝\n好 謝謝主席徐委員早早 這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局\n那他是跟誰通報?他說國安單位。國安單位是怎樣?國安會?國安單位有哪一些?只要有省委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定。因為他講說他有找你們嗎?沒有講找我們。他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局?\n有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但\n所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在\n上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嗎我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣\n你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?\n我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎\n有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?\n跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本\n而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管\n陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查所以陸委會主委再回復主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本\n他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣那請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家\n就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下\n這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔\n現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過\n他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是 這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報\n我知道,但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在,對不起我要走過來\n他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮\n委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內\n那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?\n沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?\n報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張\n所以很簡單嘛 控制CG的在這裡嘛 對不對\n來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡\n可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答\n你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞之後要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞\n報告委員 您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節 他自由時報 抱歉不是細節 他新聞就有寫了嘛他新聞自己寫得這麼清楚 然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事 到底在保護誰好 文化部\n如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞這已經是第13天了你們政府有夠無能的13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話\n第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞\n如果碰到任何一家媒體不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候文化部要做什麼處理\n跟委員說明,文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係,報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊,不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問,那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?\nNCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰\n所以文化部會罰錢\n對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方\n所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?\n沒有嘛!所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝\n這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.690 --> 00:09.978\n謝謝主席,我們請國安局陸委會、文化部好,請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政策,謝謝\n\n00:12.281 --> 00:40.338\n好謝謝主席徐委員早早這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局\n\n00:41.258 --> 01:05.072\n那他是跟誰通報?他說國安單位。國安單位是怎樣?國安會?國安單位有哪一些?只要有省委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定。因為他講說他有找你們嗎?沒有講找我們。他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局?\n\n01:06.053 --> 01:23.643\n有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但\n\n01:25.425 --> 01:37.835\n所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在\n\n01:40.797 --> 02:08.282\n上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嗎我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣\n\n02:10.983 --> 02:31.040\n你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?\n\n02:36.244 --> 02:47.087\n我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎\n\n03:04.520 --> 03:10.227\n有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?\n\n03:11.190 --> 03:38.333\n跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本\n\n03:39.329 --> 03:57.163\n而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管\n\n03:58.143 --> 04:10.629\n陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查所以陸委會主委再回復主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本\n\n04:11.441 --> 04:33.585\n他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣那請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家\n\n04:35.101 --> 04:59.759\n就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下\n\n05:02.605 --> 05:07.246\n這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔\n\n05:25.372 --> 05:40.312\n現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過\n\n05:43.517 --> 05:57.918\n他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報\n\n05:58.739 --> 06:02.681\n我知道,但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在,對不起我要走過來\n\n06:15.185 --> 06:26.797\n他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮\n\n06:39.318 --> 06:57.867\n委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內\n\n07:04.450 --> 07:05.151\n那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?\n\n07:27.725 --> 07:32.529\n沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?\n\n07:54.743 --> 08:12.691\n報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張\n\n08:21.328 --> 08:23.641\n所以很簡單嘛控制CG的在這裡嘛對不對\n\n08:25.782 --> 08:35.247\n來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡\n\n08:55.897 --> 09:09.800\n可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答\n\n09:11.920 --> 09:37.829\n你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞之後要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞\n\n09:39.173 --> 09:46.676\n報告委員您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節他自由時報抱歉不是細節他新聞就有寫了嘛他新聞自己寫得這麼清楚然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事到底在保護誰好文化部\n\n10:02.185 --> 10:11.635\n如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞這已經是第13天了你們政府有夠無能的13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話\n\n10:25.523 --> 10:49.298\n第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞\n\n10:49.738 --> 10:57.447\n如果碰到任何一家媒體不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候文化部要做什麼處理\n\n10:59.124 --> 11:10.593\n跟委員說明,文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係,報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊,不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問,那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?\n\n11:30.067 --> 11:52.573\nNCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰\n\n11:54.104 --> 11:54.244\n所以文化部會罰錢\n\n12:24.179 --> 12:26.660\n對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方\n\n12:41.486 --> 12:45.027\n所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?\n\n13:05.134 --> 13:34.026\n沒有嘛!所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝\n\n13:37.428 --> 13:41.976\n這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.69,"end":9.978,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請國安局陸委會、文化部好,請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政策,謝謝"},{"start":12.281,"end":40.338,"text":"好 謝謝主席徐委員早早 這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局"},{"start":41.258,"end":65.072,"text":"那他是跟誰通報?他說國安單位。國安單位是怎樣?國安會?國安單位有哪一些?只要有省委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定。因為他講說他有找你們嗎?沒有講找我們。他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局?"},{"start":66.053,"end":83.643,"text":"有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但"},{"start":85.425,"end":97.835,"text":"所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在"},{"start":100.797,"end":128.282,"text":"上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嗎我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣"},{"start":130.983,"end":151.04,"text":"你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?"},{"start":156.244,"end":167.087,"text":"我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎"},{"start":184.52,"end":190.227,"text":"有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?"},{"start":191.19,"end":218.333,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本"},{"start":219.329,"end":237.163,"text":"而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管"},{"start":238.143,"end":250.629,"text":"陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查所以陸委會主委再回復主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本"},{"start":251.441,"end":273.585,"text":"他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣那請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家"},{"start":275.101,"end":299.759,"text":"就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下"},{"start":302.605,"end":307.246,"text":"這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔"},{"start":325.372,"end":340.312,"text":"現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過"},{"start":343.517,"end":357.918,"text":"他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是 這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報"},{"start":358.739,"end":362.681,"text":"我知道,但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在,對不起我要走過來"},{"start":375.185,"end":386.797,"text":"他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮"},{"start":399.318,"end":417.867,"text":"委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內"},{"start":424.45,"end":425.151,"text":"那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?"},{"start":447.725,"end":452.529,"text":"沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?"},{"start":474.743,"end":492.691,"text":"報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張"},{"start":501.328,"end":503.641,"text":"所以很簡單嘛 控制CG的在這裡嘛 對不對"},{"start":505.782,"end":515.247,"text":"來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡"},{"start":535.897,"end":549.8,"text":"可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答"},{"start":551.92,"end":577.829,"text":"你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞之後要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞"},{"start":579.173,"end":586.676,"text":"報告委員 您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節 他自由時報 抱歉不是細節 他新聞就有寫了嘛他新聞自己寫得這麼清楚 然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事 到底在保護誰好 文化部"},{"start":602.185,"end":611.635,"text":"如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞這已經是第13天了你們政府有夠無能的13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話"},{"start":625.523,"end":649.298,"text":"第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞"},{"start":649.738,"end":657.447,"text":"如果碰到任何一家媒體不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候文化部要做什麼處理"},{"start":659.124,"end":670.593,"text":"跟委員說明,文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係,報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊,不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問,那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?"},{"start":690.067,"end":712.573,"text":"NCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰"},{"start":714.104,"end":714.244,"text":"所以文化部會罰錢"},{"start":744.179,"end":746.66,"text":"對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方"},{"start":761.486,"end":765.027,"text":"所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?"},{"start":785.134,"end":814.026,"text":"沒有嘛!所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝"},{"start":817.428,"end":821.976,"text":"這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"}]}}}}