{"id":154559,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a86008eb005e1ab8dce876c6524d02f36cf84bbc3b5148b931563234e73618c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:02:30 - 10:17:36","影片長度":"00:15:06","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T10:02:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:17:36+08:00","duration":906,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長，還有陸委會副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早！"],["馬委員文君：謝謝局長還有副主委。今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概也都是目前國人非常關心的，因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議取消了，讓大家枯坐一整天，所以我們今天對於大家非常關切的議題重新再安排一次會議，我們也希望這些問題可以有機會好好的來做詢答或者後續的因應處理。","上週發生澎湖籍漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的狀況，接下來還有港福洋漁船也被日本抓走了，可是這個部分很快的就以罰款方式把它解決了，現在澎湖籍大進滿的這個部分，請問局長跟陸委會怎麼看？或者要怎麼處理？因為局長在第一時間接受採訪時有提到這是一個不尋常的案例，然後又說中共可能藉由漁事的扣押、行政裁罰來展現對臺灣的管轄權，還有政府的立場等等。當時在第一時間局長有這樣提到，可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣。對於行政管轄權也好，或者它的休漁期也好，這個過去每年都有，過去沒有發生的狀況今年發生了，我們也已經進到現在的階段，請問國安局局長有什麼樣不同的看法嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明，第一個部分是法律的面向，法律的面向因為涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域，違反當地的法規而遭到查辦，這是第一個，法律……"],["馬委員文君：局長，這個很明確，我想不要再把時間花在這裡。"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個部分是政治的面向，也就是委員現在正在關注的，會不會這些個案背後所反映的是中共希望來凸顯在臺海地區的管轄權，然後來對我們的政府進行施壓，這個部分也是我們正在觀察跟研判的，因為還要看這個個案發生以來這幾天中共在一些爭議訊息的操作及媒播效應的處理，我們才能夠判斷他的政治意圖到底是什麼。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們從之前因為撞船事件造成兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件，一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸，到現在還被留置在那裡，我們也一籌莫展，現在又發生了這樣的漁船事件，然後也被留置，到現在我們也沒有辦法處理。可是相對於像日本，因為臺灣所有漁民的作業場域其實都是有風險的，或者是重疊爭議的海域非常多，包括之前在菲律賓附近也曾發生廣大興號船長被打死的事件，所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是，可是我們對於日本顯然好像都是他們說了算。但是對於大陸，到目前為止，我們還沒有辦法把我們的人不管是救回來也好，或者讓他們平安地回來也好，到現在好像所有的事件，我剛剛講的，都還沒有辦法發聲。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這些漁事糾紛的處理，我想政府的相關單位，不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部，他們都會針對不同國家的相關個案來跟對口進行溝通……"],["馬委員文君：過去沒有發生，現在為什麼發生，我們在乎的是這個，因為過去有默契，每年他都有休漁期，我們的爭議海域或傳統作業漁場，我們一開始就很清楚地知道那是傳統的作業魚場，表示我們一直都是這樣在那裡生活的，所以對於漁民來說，其實他們傷害是最大的，他們現在無所適從，他們只要一出門都可能有風險，可是國家沒有辦法保護他們，這個才是國安單位要非常慎重考量的。","另外，國安局對於陸方的轉變，這是賴總統就職以後的兩國論述呢？還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應？還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應？還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣？對於以上這幾個理由，局長，你有什麼看法？因為過去沒有這樣發生，現在發生了，剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在局勢的變化？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，剛剛委員有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態，這個部分我們尊重，但是我們也確實有注意到，最近中共的海警單位不只是在臺海地區，在東海、南海的動作也都非常的大，包括萬噸級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋，另外一艘萬噸級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區，所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的擴張動作都非常的關注。"],["馬委員文君：國際的關注我們都很清楚，我們在乎的是我們的人民及我們的漁民，因為我們一出去就回不來了，到目前為止都是這樣，所以這是國安單位應該要給答案，而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢，所以請局長簡單說明我們有什麼樣的分析及作為嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有關這個部分，中共在海上灰色地帶的操作確實最近的頻次是有比較高，這也是我們現在……"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛說我們在乎的是我們的人民及漁民，對此，你們有沒有什麼樣因應的作為？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個部分我們也會繼續在我們行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查，保護我們的漁民的合法海事活動。"],["馬委員文君：人呢？現在人呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：人的部分，陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在是宣布的休漁季，所謂伏季休漁……"],["馬委員文君：那過去為什麼不會？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣講，就是說，要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策……"],["馬委員文君：現在力道變得很強嘛，是為了什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：力道……"],["馬委員文君：陸委會可以做什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：其實我們的漁業署每年5月也會配合，因為對方宣布休漁期，所以我們漁業署也會叫漁民要注意，對方對方宣布休漁期，沒必要不要進入。"],["馬委員文君：好，因為過去也有發生，過去大概就是驅離，現在是把船都拖走了，本席現在是問我們現在怎麼辦？因為日本你可以跟他談，然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了，可是現在對於陸方，他們是不是有要求，或者怎麼要求，或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或我們的國人，之前那個士官，甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了，他已經不具軍人的身分，我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們平安的回來？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得第一個，我還是要呼籲一下就是說……"],["馬委員文君：有跟他們談嗎？陸委會有跟他們談嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：有，我們是有各種管道。"],["馬委員文君：有談嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是有各種管道。"],["馬委員文君：現在他們怎麼說？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在的問題是這樣，因為這個……"],["馬委員文君：他們怎麼說？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為所謂違反休漁季的這個行為，在中共的法律裡面是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等……"],["馬委員文君：好，沒關係，因為它過去也可以驅離……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就是看它要用什麼樣的方法……"],["馬委員文君：好，陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們有各種管道。"],["馬委員文君：有談嗎？現在他們怎麼說？不要講法律，就是他們怎麼說？因為有管道嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在都還沒有明確的消息。"],["馬委員文君：沒有消息？所以……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有明確，沒有明確的消息。"],["馬委員文君：所以管道不管用還是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是說，我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定。"],["馬委員文君：那個軍人呢？就是現在不具軍人身分的那個士官，3月份……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那位胡姓士官，我們還是一再呼籲，就是這是人道，完全沒有理由扣押四個月。是。"],["馬委員文君：所以，有什麼樣的作法？我們知道他怎麼樣，因為包括陳玉珍委員都跟家屬過去探視，照理說我們陸委會在過去，不管海基會也好，陸委會也好，我們有非常多的管道，而且是明確的、正式的管道可以去談判，我們現在對於不斷、不斷、不斷發生，未來還是會有，因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了，未來還是會有，如果我們拿這些一點辦法都沒有，其實陸委會應該要非常……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，有管道是一回事，但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事。所以，譬如說，像大進滿88號這一艘船，我們會有管道瞭解，但是他要怎麼做……"],["馬委員文君：副主委，過去任何事情發生的時候，我們不但有管道，而且是可以解決的，現在沒有辦法解決，這是政府的問題，而且也是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題，怎麼樣保護我們的漁民、保護我們的人民，不管你的對象是誰，你都要有談判的能力，你要有解救他們的能力，這個才是有為的政府。這是我們今天要說的，因為到目前為止，聽起來當然還沒有任何的作法。","因為時間的關係，我想要再請教。局長，2022年8月美國眾議院前議長裴洛西訪臺的時候，曾經引發解放軍圍臺實彈軍演，也發生了總統府、外交部、國防部的官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的事情，然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊，包括臺鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情，這些應該還記憶猶新，包括世界經濟論壇2024年的全球風險報告，也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險，也認為這是國家之間一個灰色衝突的區域。對於我們來說，剛剛也有很多委員提到，我們用了很多的陸製產品，不管是國防部也好，就是像無人機國家隊，其他還包括很多資安方面都用到陸製的產品，像這方面的衝突跟影響或者它的危害，我們現在還有什麼樣的作法？比如說像學校，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，境內的……"],["馬委員文君：如果學校像大專院校被駭的話。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，也有這樣的案例。我跟委員說明一下，在二合一選舉之前，我們政府每天遭到侵害的次數大概有一百萬次，選後大概都有兩百五十萬次之多，所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多，這是第一個發展趨勢。第二個是它攻擊的對象，也開始從政府到民間企業，甚至到學校，就是委員正在講的部分，這部分新的發展樣態，我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在。"],["馬委員文君：其實這個不是新的發展樣態……"],["蔡局長明彥：而且是往民間企業在發動攻擊。"],["馬委員文君：2019年行政院有大概1.5億招標臺灣學術網路系統優化的採購案，本席當時有提醒教育部還有行政院應該要注意這個事情，後來驗收時卻被發現違約採用中國製零組件，但是教育部後來為了顧及臺灣學術網路的正常運作，只邀集行政院的資安處以及相關的學者研商，然後就說中國製元件無資安風險。可是當你在要求不可以有陸製產品的時候，我們在合約中明明白白寫了很多，可是就像剛剛有委員講的，事情發生後我們根本就只是叫它換掉，或者甚至你間接地承認說這個沒有資安風險。可是我們看到過去行政院下令說公務機關不可以使用，結果這個案子因為教育部扣它的款減價驗收，對方提告，結果法官不這樣認為，到最後法官是判它勝訴的。","所以，就資安這部分，為了維護資安的需求，政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準，我想這也是我們現在應該要討論的，因為過去專家提出說，現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣裝置，包括路由器、防火牆或者VPN等等，其實這些都是可以做攻擊的，可是我們竟然把這些放掉了。而且可能因為是比較大的公司，因為遠傳併購亞太接手了此案，所以其實我們就把它放掉了。不過，資安廠商他們觀察發現，臺灣招網工的前五大產業，臺灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的，而且是全球的兩倍，這個最大的風險是什麼？現在包括我們的國防部，很多重要的研究案都是委託給各大專院校，如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案，因為駭客如果要攻擊政府部門比較不容易，他藉由攻擊這樣的學術單位，同樣可以拿到我們很多機敏的資料，這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：大概有兩個部分，一個部分是防範外來的、對我們資安系統的侵害，這是傳統的作業重點；另外一部分是委員正在提醒的，也就是供應鏈資通訊設備的安全性問題，這部分變成是我們現在在資安防阻上主要的一個聚焦……"],["馬委員文君：這一個案子請國安單位再持續追蹤，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我會，我們還在注意……"],["馬委員文君：因為就這個部分，它對於我們全國大專院校，上至臺大、成大，所有接受我們研究案的大專院校全部都在裡面，而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的零附件，包括它的板子其實都是，所以這個部分請國安單位持續去關注，然後也給我們一個相關的回復報告。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們繼續來追問，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。下面請陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員不在。","請羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154559","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154559","tool":"pyannote","id":"154559-pyannote"},"job_id":"MIi8qyQrtLGLQ5r2","queued_at":"2024-07-08 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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 882.712, \"end\": 882.732, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,569 --> 00:00:04,690\n請官局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委謝謝主席馬委員長謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議\n\n2\n00:00:27,538 --> 00:00:27,758\n馬文君\n\n3\n00:00:45,214 --> 00:00:53,737\n上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大禁滿的這個部分\n\n4\n00:01:10,783 --> 00:01:26,554\n局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權\n\n5\n00:01:30,216 --> 00:01:57,771\n還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎\n\n6\n00:01:58,511 --> 00:02:22,503\n對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明了第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗這地方對法律...那第二部分是政治的面向也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些的個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權\n\n7\n00:02:23,263 --> 00:02:23,383\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n8\n00:02:37,594 --> 00:02:42,675\n因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣\n\n9\n00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:26,554\n我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算\n\n10\n00:03:27,695 --> 00:03:40,962\n對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人把他不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生\n\n11\n00:03:43,583 --> 00:03:49,626\n對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道這是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的\n\n12\n00:04:10,276 --> 00:04:13,018\n所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的\n\n13\n00:04:29,553 --> 00:04:44,347\n兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由\n\n14\n00:04:48,140 --> 00:04:52,304\n局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到\n\n15\n00:05:04,736 --> 00:05:21,597\n最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注\n\n16\n00:05:22,965 --> 00:05:39,709\n國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎\n\n17\n00:05:44,370 --> 00:06:11,860\n對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高那這也是我們現在在...我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為?有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們...人呢?合法的海事的活動現在人呢?人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中\n\n18\n00:06:15,503 --> 00:06:38,453\n報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?\n\n19\n00:06:40,486 --> 00:06:41,228\n其實我們的漁業署\n\n20\n00:06:45,029 --> 00:07:08,541\n每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期好那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的\n\n21\n00:07:12,663 --> 00:07:34,993\n是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎\n\n22\n00:07:37,430 --> 00:07:57,594\n陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?\n\n23\n00:08:04,375 --> 00:08:26,611\n我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢\n\n24\n00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:40,192\n那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲這是人道,其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月所以有什麼樣的做法?\n\n25\n00:08:47,632 --> 00:09:12,738\n我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要\n\n26\n00:09:15,018 --> 00:09:29,559\n報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道瞭解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事\n\n27\n00:09:30,140 --> 00:09:36,066\n事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府\n\n28\n00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,381\n這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演\n\n29\n00:10:10,069 --> 00:10:14,770\n那也發生了總統府外交部、國防部、官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個事情然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險\n\n30\n00:10:37,597 --> 00:10:37,857\n對於像這樣子的一個\n\n31\n00:11:02,172 --> 00:11:10,261\n衝突跟影響．或者它的危害．我們現在還有什麼樣的做法．比如說像學校．您的看法怎麼樣．如果學校被害的話．大專院校\n\n32\n00:11:16,192 --> 00:11:40,541\n有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在\n\n33\n00:11:41,841 --> 00:11:45,745\n其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為\n\n34\n00:12:02,102 --> 00:12:23,435\n其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀請了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們\n\n35\n00:12:25,496 --> 00:12:43,710\n根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的\n\n36\n00:12:45,489 --> 00:12:49,272\n因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者\n\n37\n00:13:13,368 --> 00:13:38,520\n其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍\n\n38\n00:13:39,841 --> 00:14:04,979\n那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法\n\n39\n00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:20,551\n大概有兩個部分一個部分是防範外來的對我們資安系統的侵害這是傳統的作業重點那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題那這部分變成是我們現在在資安防處上主要的一個具體問題\n\n40\n00:14:20,691 --> 00:14:25,556\n那這個案子請你請管單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件\n\n41\n00:14:42,712 --> 00:14:42,732\n陳穎委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n569\t4690\t請官局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委謝謝主席馬委員長謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議\n27538\t27758\t馬文君\n45214\t53737\t上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大禁滿的這個部分\n70783\t86554\t局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權\n90216\t117771\t還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎\n118511\t142503\t對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明了第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗這地方對法律...那第二部分是政治的面向也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些的個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權\n143263\t143383\t﹚馬文君﹚\n157594\t162675\t因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣\n184500\t206554\t我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算\n207695\t220962\t對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人把他不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生\n223583\t229626\t對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道這是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的\n250276\t253018\t所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的\n269553\t284347\t兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由\n288140\t292304\t局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到\n304736\t321597\t最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注\n322965\t339709\t國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎\n344370\t371860\t對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高那這也是我們現在在...我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為?有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們...人呢?合法的海事的活動現在人呢?人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中\n375503\t398453\t報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?\n400486\t401228\t其實我們的漁業署\n405029\t428541\t每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期好那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的\n432663\t454993\t是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎\n457430\t477594\t陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?\n484375\t506611\t我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢\n509820\t520192\t那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲這是人道,其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月所以有什麼樣的做法?\n527632\t552738\t我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要\n555018\t569559\t報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道瞭解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事\n570140\t576066\t事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府\n592040\t594381\t這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演\n610069\t614770\t那也發生了總統府外交部、國防部、官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個事情然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險\n637597\t637857\t對於像這樣子的一個\n662172\t670261\t衝突跟影響．或者它的危害．我們現在還有什麼樣的做法．比如說像學校．您的看法怎麼樣．如果學校被害的話．大專院校\n676192\t700541\t有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在\n701841\t705745\t其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為\n722102\t743435\t其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀請了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們\n745496\t763710\t根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的\n765489\t769272\t因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者\n793368\t818520\t其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍\n819841\t844979\t那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法\n845399\t860551\t大概有兩個部分一個部分是防範外來的對我們資安系統的侵害這是傳統的作業重點那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題那這部分變成是我們現在在資安防處上主要的一個具體問題\n860691\t865556\t那這個案子請你請管單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件\n882712\t882732\t陳穎委員\n","txt":"請官局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委謝謝主席馬委員長謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議\n馬文君\n上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大禁滿的這個部分\n局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權\n還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎\n對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明了第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗這地方對法律...那第二部分是政治的面向也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些的個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權\n﹚馬文君﹚\n因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣\n我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算\n對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人把他不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生\n對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道這是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的\n所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的\n兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由\n局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到\n最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注\n國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎\n對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高那這也是我們現在在...我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為?有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們...人呢?合法的海事的活動現在人呢?人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中\n報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?\n其實我們的漁業署\n每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期好那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的\n是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎\n陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?\n我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢\n那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲這是人道,其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月所以有什麼樣的做法?\n我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要\n報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道瞭解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事\n事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府\n這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演\n那也發生了總統府外交部、國防部、官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個事情然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險\n對於像這樣子的一個\n衝突跟影響．或者它的危害．我們現在還有什麼樣的做法．比如說像學校．您的看法怎麼樣．如果學校被害的話．大專院校\n有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在\n其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為\n其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀請了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們\n根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的\n因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者\n其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍\n那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法\n大概有兩個部分一個部分是防範外來的對我們資安系統的侵害這是傳統的作業重點那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題那這部分變成是我們現在在資安防處上主要的一個具體問題\n那這個案子請你請管單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件\n陳穎委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.569 --> 00:04.690\n請官局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委謝謝主席馬委員長謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議\n\n00:27.538 --> 00:27.758\n馬文君\n\n00:45.214 --> 00:53.737\n上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大禁滿的這個部分\n\n01:10.783 --> 01:26.554\n局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權\n\n01:30.216 --> 01:57.771\n還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎\n\n01:58.511 --> 02:22.503\n對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明了第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗這地方對法律...那第二部分是政治的面向也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些的個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權\n\n02:23.263 --> 02:23.383\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n02:37.594 --> 02:42.675\n因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣\n\n03:04.500 --> 03:26.554\n我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算\n\n03:27.695 --> 03:40.962\n對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人把他不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生\n\n03:43.583 --> 03:49.626\n對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道這是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的\n\n04:10.276 --> 04:13.018\n所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的\n\n04:29.553 --> 04:44.347\n兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由\n\n04:48.140 --> 04:52.304\n局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到\n\n05:04.736 --> 05:21.597\n最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注\n\n05:22.965 --> 05:39.709\n國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎\n\n05:44.370 --> 06:11.860\n對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高那這也是我們現在在...我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為?有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們...人呢?合法的海事的活動現在人呢?人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中\n\n06:15.503 --> 06:38.453\n報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?\n\n06:40.486 --> 06:41.228\n其實我們的漁業署\n\n06:45.029 --> 07:08.541\n每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期好那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的\n\n07:12.663 --> 07:34.993\n是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎\n\n07:37.430 --> 07:57.594\n陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?\n\n08:04.375 --> 08:26.611\n我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢\n\n08:29.820 --> 08:40.192\n那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲這是人道,其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月所以有什麼樣的做法?\n\n08:47.632 --> 09:12.738\n我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要\n\n09:15.018 --> 09:29.559\n報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道瞭解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事\n\n09:30.140 --> 09:36.066\n事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府\n\n09:52.040 --> 09:54.381\n這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演\n\n10:10.069 --> 10:14.770\n那也發生了總統府外交部、國防部、官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個事情然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險\n\n10:37.597 --> 10:37.857\n對於像這樣子的一個\n\n11:02.172 --> 11:10.261\n衝突跟影響．或者它的危害．我們現在還有什麼樣的做法．比如說像學校．您的看法怎麼樣．如果學校被害的話．大專院校\n\n11:16.192 --> 11:40.541\n有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在\n\n11:41.841 --> 11:45.745\n其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為\n\n12:02.102 --> 12:23.435\n其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀請了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們\n\n12:25.496 --> 12:43.710\n根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的\n\n12:45.489 --> 12:49.272\n因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者\n\n13:13.368 --> 13:38.520\n其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍\n\n13:39.841 --> 14:04.979\n那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法\n\n14:05.399 --> 14:20.551\n大概有兩個部分一個部分是防範外來的對我們資安系統的侵害這是傳統的作業重點那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題那這部分變成是我們現在在資安防處上主要的一個具體問題\n\n14:20.691 --> 14:25.556\n那這個案子請你請管單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件\n\n14:42.712 --> 14:42.732\n陳穎委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.569,"end":4.69,"text":"請官局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委謝謝主席馬委員長謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議"},{"start":27.538,"end":27.758,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":45.214,"end":53.737,"text":"上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大禁滿的這個部分"},{"start":70.783,"end":86.554,"text":"局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權"},{"start":90.216,"end":117.771,"text":"還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎"},{"start":118.511,"end":142.503,"text":"對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明了第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗這地方對法律...那第二部分是政治的面向也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些的個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權"},{"start":143.263,"end":143.383,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":157.594,"end":162.675,"text":"因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣"},{"start":184.5,"end":206.554,"text":"我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算"},{"start":207.695,"end":220.962,"text":"對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人把他不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生"},{"start":223.583,"end":229.626,"text":"對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道這是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的"},{"start":250.276,"end":253.018,"text":"所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的"},{"start":269.553,"end":284.347,"text":"兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由"},{"start":288.14,"end":292.304,"text":"局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到"},{"start":304.736,"end":321.597,"text":"最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注"},{"start":322.965,"end":339.709,"text":"國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎"},{"start":344.37,"end":371.86,"text":"對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高那這也是我們現在在...我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為?有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們...人呢?合法的海事的活動現在人呢?人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中"},{"start":375.503,"end":398.453,"text":"報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?"},{"start":400.486,"end":401.228,"text":"其實我們的漁業署"},{"start":405.029,"end":428.541,"text":"每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期好那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的"},{"start":432.663,"end":454.993,"text":"是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎"},{"start":457.43,"end":477.594,"text":"陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?"},{"start":484.375,"end":506.611,"text":"我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢"},{"start":509.82,"end":520.192,"text":"那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲這是人道,其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月所以有什麼樣的做法?"},{"start":527.632,"end":552.738,"text":"我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要"},{"start":555.018,"end":569.559,"text":"報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道瞭解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事"},{"start":570.14,"end":576.066,"text":"事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府"},{"start":592.04,"end":594.381,"text":"這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演"},{"start":610.069,"end":614.77,"text":"那也發生了總統府外交部、國防部、官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個事情然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險"},{"start":637.597,"end":637.857,"text":"對於像這樣子的一個"},{"start":662.172,"end":670.261,"text":"衝突跟影響．或者它的危害．我們現在還有什麼樣的做法．比如說像學校．您的看法怎麼樣．如果學校被害的話．大專院校"},{"start":676.192,"end":700.541,"text":"有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在"},{"start":701.841,"end":705.745,"text":"其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為"},{"start":722.102,"end":743.435,"text":"其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀請了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們"},{"start":745.496,"end":763.71,"text":"根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的"},{"start":765.489,"end":769.272,"text":"因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者"},{"start":793.368,"end":818.52,"text":"其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍"},{"start":819.841,"end":844.979,"text":"那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":845.399,"end":860.551,"text":"大概有兩個部分一個部分是防範外來的對我們資安系統的侵害這是傳統的作業重點那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題那這部分變成是我們現在在資安防處上主要的一個具體問題"},{"start":860.691,"end":865.556,"text":"那這個案子請你請管單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件"},{"start":882.712,"end":882.732,"text":"陳穎委員"}]}}}}