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？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個要快，第二個，同時你要給人民真相，你一直拖，我剛剛說已經兩個禮拜了好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來提醒、我們來提醒，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：希望儘快有結論，謝謝。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時7分）"],["主席：我們開始開會。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154563","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154563","tool":"pyannote","id":"154563-pyannote"},"job_id":"eUnhBRGTAGmpCWto","queued_at":"2024-07-08 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{\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 559.84, \"end\": 559.86, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 561.802, \"end\": 561.882, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 561.882, \"end\": 561.922, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 561.922, \"end\": 562.022, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 562.022, \"end\": 562.042, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,218 --> 00:00:10,982\n請國家安全局局長和陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不過精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?\n\n2\n00:00:28,701 --> 00:00:44,473\n我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎精準一點比較精準\n\n3\n00:00:53,260 --> 00:01:18,691\n是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定\n\n4\n00:01:23,513 --> 00:01:41,805\n我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了\n\n5\n00:01:43,188 --> 00:01:43,668\n國安局沒有調查權\n\n6\n00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:15,594\n那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛\n\n7\n00:02:16,983 --> 00:02:32,022\n對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。\n\n8\n00:02:33,735 --> 00:02:54,114\n國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉\n\n9\n00:02:55,368 --> 00:03:06,130\n東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有\n\n10\n00:03:07,918 --> 00:03:35,979\n你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,\n\n11\n00:03:37,580 --> 00:03:53,809\n所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子\n\n12\n00:03:54,770 --> 00:03:57,972\n國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了\n\n13\n00:04:13,464 --> 00:04:19,867\n主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好\n\n14\n00:04:43,430 --> 00:04:50,992\n我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?\n\n15\n00:05:07,856 --> 00:05:17,498\n有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦\n\n16\n00:05:31,684 --> 00:05:54,756\n你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下\n\n17\n00:05:55,765 --> 00:06:03,562\n有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識\n\n18\n00:06:07,142 --> 00:06:24,200\n對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西\n\n19\n00:06:28,041 --> 00:06:29,182\n主席主席主席主席主席\n\n20\n00:06:49,433 --> 00:07:10,119\n臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西\n\n21\n00:07:16,218 --> 00:07:34,889\n這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚\n\n22\n00:07:37,519 --> 00:08:03,520\n我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有\n\n23\n00:08:04,574 --> 00:08:18,464\n又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎\n\n24\n00:08:28,991 --> 00:08:45,938\n是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是\n\n25\n00:08:55,121 --> 00:09:19,860\n上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔\n\n26\n00:09:21,802 --> 00:09:22,042\n現在休息5分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5218\t10982\t請國家安全局局長和陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不過精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?\n28701\t44473\t我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上 習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準\n53260\t78691\t是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定\n83513\t101805\t我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了\n103188\t103668\t國安局沒有調查權\n121599\t135594\t那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛\n136983\t152022\t對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。\n153735\t174114\t國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉\n175368\t186130\t東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有\n187918\t215979\t你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,\n217580\t233809\t所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子\n234770\t237972\t國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了\n253464\t259867\t主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好\n283430\t290992\t我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?\n307856\t317498\t有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦\n331684\t354756\t你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下\n355765\t363562\t有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對 有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識\n367142\t384200\t對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西\n388041\t389182\t主席主席主席主席主席\n409433\t430119\t臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西\n436218\t454889\t這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚\n457519\t483520\t我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有\n484574\t498464\t又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎\n508991\t525938\t是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是\n535121\t559860\t上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔\n561802\t562042\t現在休息5分鐘\n","txt":"請國家安全局局長和陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不過精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?\n我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上 習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準\n是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定\n我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了\n國安局沒有調查權\n那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛\n對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。\n國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉\n東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有\n你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,\n所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子\n國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了\n主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好\n我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?\n有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦\n你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下\n有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對 有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識\n對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西\n主席主席主席主席主席\n臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西\n這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚\n我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有\n又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎\n是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是\n上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔\n現在休息5分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.218 --> 00:10.982\n請國家安全局局長和陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不過精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?\n\n00:28.701 --> 00:44.473\n我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎精準一點比較精準\n\n00:53.260 --> 01:18.691\n是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定\n\n01:23.513 --> 01:41.805\n我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了\n\n01:43.188 --> 01:43.668\n國安局沒有調查權\n\n02:01.599 --> 02:15.594\n那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛\n\n02:16.983 --> 02:32.022\n對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。\n\n02:33.735 --> 02:54.114\n國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉\n\n02:55.368 --> 03:06.130\n東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有\n\n03:07.918 --> 03:35.979\n你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,\n\n03:37.580 --> 03:53.809\n所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子\n\n03:54.770 --> 03:57.972\n國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了\n\n04:13.464 --> 04:19.867\n主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好\n\n04:43.430 --> 04:50.992\n我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?\n\n05:07.856 --> 05:17.498\n有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦\n\n05:31.684 --> 05:54.756\n你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下\n\n05:55.765 --> 06:03.562\n有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識\n\n06:07.142 --> 06:24.200\n對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西\n\n06:28.041 --> 06:29.182\n主席主席主席主席主席\n\n06:49.433 --> 07:10.119\n臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西\n\n07:16.218 --> 07:34.889\n這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚\n\n07:37.519 --> 08:03.520\n我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有\n\n08:04.574 --> 08:18.464\n又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎\n\n08:28.991 --> 08:45.938\n是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是\n\n08:55.121 --> 09:19.860\n上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔\n\n09:21.802 --> 09:22.042\n現在休息5分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.218,"end":10.982,"text":"請國家安全局局長和陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不過精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?"},{"start":28.701,"end":44.473,"text":"我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上 習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準"},{"start":53.26,"end":78.691,"text":"是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定"},{"start":83.513,"end":101.805,"text":"我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了"},{"start":103.188,"end":103.668,"text":"國安局沒有調查權"},{"start":121.599,"end":135.594,"text":"那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛"},{"start":136.983,"end":152.022,"text":"對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。"},{"start":153.735,"end":174.114,"text":"國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉"},{"start":175.368,"end":186.13,"text":"東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有"},{"start":187.918,"end":215.979,"text":"你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,"},{"start":217.58,"end":233.809,"text":"所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子"},{"start":234.77,"end":237.972,"text":"國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了"},{"start":253.464,"end":259.867,"text":"主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好"},{"start":283.43,"end":290.992,"text":"我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?"},{"start":307.856,"end":317.498,"text":"有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦"},{"start":331.684,"end":354.756,"text":"你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":355.765,"end":363.562,"text":"有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對 有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識"},{"start":367.142,"end":384.2,"text":"對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西"},{"start":388.041,"end":389.182,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":409.433,"end":430.119,"text":"臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西"},{"start":436.218,"end":454.889,"text":"這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚"},{"start":457.519,"end":483.52,"text":"我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有"},{"start":484.574,"end":498.464,"text":"又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎"},{"start":508.991,"end":525.938,"text":"是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是"},{"start":535.121,"end":559.86,"text":"上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔"},{"start":561.802,"end":562.042,"text":"現在休息5分鐘"}]}}}}