{"id":154567,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256ac4a26ce3fd696712ce876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db04ed397689a3dd90d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"11:21:28 - 11:35:28","影片長度":"00:14:00","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T11:21:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T11:35:28+08:00","duration":840,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":857,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（11時21分）謝謝主席，麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委。"],["主席：國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委，請就備詢臺，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長，我們早上聽了一下，大概對於中國滲透臺灣媒體，曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態，你看一下，這幾個樣態就你的業務來瞭解，不管是國安局或調查局，這些樣態是存在的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，先跟委員說明一下，媒體報導這5個樣態並不是由國安局來提供……"],["王委員定宇：當然不是你們整理的。"],["蔡局長明彥：但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的狀況……"],["王委員定宇：你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多？"],["蔡局長明彥：可能會再稍微多一點。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有包括送手機？"],["蔡局長明彥：有注意到委員在講的這件事情。"],["王委員定宇：對，很特別，突然間有一天，有一群人統統拿一樣的華為的手機，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：都一樣的，而且都在那個區間裡面，這些樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度，我們尊重媒體跟它的消息來源，但作為國家的情報主管機關，你可能要整理一下你們的樣態，也許媒體人或者評論員，他不曉得這個人想要利用他，可是透過你們樣態的揭露，他會提高警覺，對於要送他東西，覺得怪怪的，你懂我意思嗎？不教而殺謂之虐嘛！所以這些東西我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["王委員定宇：就這幾個樣態，剛才聽起來局長你很負責任地說，有關中國駐臺人員對媒體或者政論節目下指導棋，你是有這樣的情資。"],["蔡局長明彥：有這樣的情資。"],["王委員定宇：有這樣的情資，你接下來是要移送給……很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們沒有。"],["王委員定宇：不是，國安局是情資蒐集單位。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：你有這個情資之後，你下一手應該是給調查局吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我請調查局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：局長，你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為按照業務上，它應該要給你嘛！你們查到現在，這些情資的真偽有沒有確認？"],["陳局長白立：我們目前還正在調查的階段。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才聽到情資你們有自己的來源，未必是媒體報導，然後情資有很多單位，包含國安局有提供給你們，你們也在整理當中，如果有涉及違法，你們可能就移送嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：現在比較麻煩的是，事實上中國對臺灣很多的樣態，我們臺灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆，韓國如果有人替北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話，我上次看到有一個被判了十多年，可是我們臺灣是把政治任務──比方說有來到臺灣統戰、宣揚中共的政治主張，我們臺灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由，然後一旦他跨過那條線，付錢了、交付命令了、發展組織了，我們才有國安五法去處理他嘛！沒有錯嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員定宇：所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題，現在國安局給你的情資，你們也在彙整、也在查證當中，未來如果有涉及不法，當然我們就會看到移送的動作，這個未來會不會等很久？"],["陳局長白立：我們儘快，我們只能說儘快。"],["王委員定宇：蔡局長要補充？"],["蔡局長明彥：我補充一下，因為也有國內的媒體人已經向這個新華社記者提告了，所以檢方也已經立案在偵辦。"],["王委員定宇：有媒體人提告，檢方要查、要辦，除了問他提告的內容，檢察官一定會問檢調嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是，所以現在臺高檢署在指揮偵辦。"],["王委員定宇：所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案子？"],["陳局長白立：有。"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了？"],["陳局長白立：對，我們跟檢察官在聯絡。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法，當然就會有起訴的動作……"],["陳局長白立：違法當然就是我們會移送起訴。"],["王委員定宇：可是我們常常在英文叫cooking──常常在辦這些案子的時候，都會經過相當長的時間，有些國安案件為了要查它的「肉粽捾」、整個組織脈絡有多大，有時候會等了三年、五年都有，這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們是希望能夠儘快釐清整個事實，但是即便是釐清了整個狀況的話，可能在法制面我們還是要去研究委員剛剛提到的，就是統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安五法，甚至像反滲透法……"],["王委員定宇：法是不是有不足嘛！"],["陳局長白立：對，法是不是有不足的地方。"],["王委員定宇：所以調查局長，我剛才問的，你現在提到，我就要講第二個層次問題，第一個，我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來，案子不是這樣辦的，但我們都希望儘快，如果有違法當然就依法起訴。我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是，臺灣現在有一個狀況，陸委會可能要瞭解一下，國安局要瞭解一下，文化部可能要瞭解，大家都要瞭解一下，可是我們現在法律沒有規範，你知道嗎？明明知道他在進行政治滲透、政治統戰，查起來也確有其事，可能有一個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體，可是有沒有到法那個層次，我內心是有個問號啦！本席這邊建議你看可不可行，這件事情釐清之後，作為國家的調查局，認為確有其事，縱使未達移送法辦的程度，你們也應該要有一個報告出來，讓民眾有個識讀。我剛才看不分朝野啊，連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代，我覺得這是好事。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：如果有這個事情，縱使未達違法移送的標準，但是確實有這樣的事情，我們今天立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情，將來如果不能移送，但確實有盯梢這樣的情形，你們願意不願意把人、事、時、地物清楚地有一份報告出來？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦，今天委員的這個建議，我們會跟檢察官去反映，就是最後的調查結果……"],["王委員定宇：你跟高檢要講一下……"],["陳局長白立：由臺高檢署那邊來發言。"],["王委員定宇：起訴就要有起訴書，不起訴書常寫得不明不白，這件事情縱使不起訴，也要寫得清清楚楚。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件，不代表沒這件事情，你懂我意思嗎？所以這件事情，可能跟高檢溝通，不起訴書要把它寫清楚，會不會起訴我不知道，因為我們沒有看到證據。","好，剛才講到法律有沒有未竟之處。希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下，有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法，甚至有的判很重，而我們臺灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重，我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待。我不是反對言論自由，而是我們該不該檢討一下，它擺明了就要來統戰，擺明了就要執行中共的政策，但我們也好像莫可奈何，掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何，人民對這個是不耐的。所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下，我們法律是不是有需精進修改的地方？我們立法委員應該也要做這樣事情，我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上委員講的沒有錯，過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制，這部分我們會再積極來蒐集相關修法的方向與國內的樣態做個結合跟評估，看怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性。"],["王委員定宇：你提出一些修法建議嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們來處理。"],["王委員定宇：像之前國安五法，都會有法務、司法單位認為可行的方式，大家一起來研擬修法，我覺得這個洞要把它補起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，應該的。"],["王委員定宇：就像你看中國有沒有媒體自由，我想這個是社會常識，中國媒體揭櫫的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體，不為黨服務叫犯人，就抓去關了，所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情。所以中國駐臺的媒體去執行不管中宣部或者是中共相關單位的命令，對他們來講是理所當然，依法有據，所以他們的媒體是要執行中共的意旨的。有7家實名的媒體駐點在臺灣，如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的，其實不止這個數量，如果他們涉及違法、影響臺灣公共利益，當然就要偵辦。請問一下，現在有沒有已經違法、損害臺灣公共利益的中國媒體，有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中？內容我不問，有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照情工法的規定，對岸的民眾來臺灣進行交流，包括媒體的採訪，假如有違反他申請來臺的目的的話，我們……"],["王委員定宇：違反目的那是行政，我現在講法律。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會處理，我的意思是說只要有違反他在臺灣駐點採播的一些來臺目的的話，我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題。這也是為什麼……"],["王委員定宇：因為他違反來臺目的，有時候就請他出去嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說違法而且損害臺灣公共利益，就一個法條在那裡嘛！違反來臺目的我們待會再講，有沒有違法樣態的案子在辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們有在注意，我們有在注蒐這樣的狀況，有，我們都在注蒐。"],["王委員定宇：好，我尊重你們偵查不公開啦！","第二個，如果他還沒到違法，他只是違反來臺目的或者執行相關策略，我剛才聽文化部次長說會取消他的記者證嘛，那他背後所代表的媒體或組織難道不用被處分嗎？這應該陸委會在管的吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：處分的部分，是不是請業管來說明？"],["王委員定宇：梁副主委，我們現在是針對媒體違規，可是你知道嗎？我認為中國派來駐臺的人是無辜的啊！他們依中共的法律是要服務中共的，所以他來這邊做任何事情哪有自由意志？所以我們只取消他的記者證，禁止他再來臺灣，其實我們沒有解決問題，他背後代表的那個力量新華社、人民日報等等，有沒有進一步取消他們派人駐點資格的機制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該要看是他個人的行為，還是我們判斷是整個機構的行為？"],["王委員定宇：中國的記者在臺灣會有個人行為嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去曾經有例子，就是東南衛視在臺灣說是要來採訪，但實際上是在製播政論節目……"],["王委員定宇：對，在做節目。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走，到目前為止，東南衛視所要申請來臺的記者，目前都還沒有允許過，所以是有前例的。"],["王委員定宇：我要提的這個例子就是說，那個記者只不過是爪牙，拔了爪牙還可以派另外一個爪牙來，是背後的那個組織，我們現在除了研擬法律以外，對這樣的組織應該要有一些處罰機制。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，因為在臺灣製播政論節目不可能是記者個人的行為。"],["王委員定宇：好，最後1分鐘。中國從去年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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,992 --> 00:00:21,410\n謝謝主席麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委請就位巡台謝謝委員長局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體\n\n2\n00:00:24,082 --> 00:00:49,298\n曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來了解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機\n\n3\n00:00:50,936 --> 00:01:18,349\n也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他\n\n4\n00:01:19,269 --> 00:01:34,212\n可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪喔,你懂我意思嗎?不教而殺,為之虐嘛。所以這些東西,我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員\n\n5\n00:01:42,495 --> 00:01:58,900\n對媒體下指導棋或者政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長\n\n6\n00:02:01,530 --> 00:02:17,367\n委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段我剛才聽到\n\n7\n00:02:18,382 --> 00:02:41,564\n情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替\n\n8\n00:02:42,665 --> 00:03:08,977\n北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了十多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰啊宣揚中共的政治主張我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在\n\n9\n00:03:10,758 --> 00:03:38,799\n國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久我們盡快我們只能說盡快蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在正辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容\n\n10\n00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:58,097\n檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個臺高檢署臺高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了對我們對我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是對我們會移送起訴\n\n11\n00:03:59,625 --> 00:04:15,157\n在英文叫Cooking在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查它的蚂蚱瓜它整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了3年5年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:16,157 --> 00:04:38,584\n我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法對法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個\n\n13\n00:04:41,576 --> 00:05:01,506\n我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎\n\n14\n00:05:02,446 --> 00:05:20,336\n明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後\n\n15\n00:05:21,923 --> 00:05:46,590\n作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情\n\n16\n00:05:48,266 --> 00:06:04,749\n將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊來\n\n17\n00:06:06,131 --> 00:06:23,585\n起訴就是起訴書不起訴書常常寫的不明不白這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件不代表沒這件事情懂我意思嗎所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書要把它寫清楚會不會起訴我不知道嘛\n\n18\n00:06:24,286 --> 00:06:45,060\n沒有看到證據好剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待\n\n19\n00:06:46,781 --> 00:07:10,926\n我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見\n\n20\n00:07:12,535 --> 00:07:40,101\n實際上委員講得沒有錯,過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性對,連提出一些修法建議嘛,像之前我們國安無法出道都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法,我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看齁\n\n21\n00:07:41,061 --> 00:08:00,429\n中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部\n\n22\n00:08:01,289 --> 00:08:15,810\n或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量\n\n23\n00:08:17,805 --> 00:08:40,636\n涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照秦公法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律\n\n24\n00:08:41,696 --> 00:09:01,593\n我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講\n\n25\n00:09:02,273 --> 00:09:27,666\n有沒有違法的樣子?有沒有在註收這樣的狀況?有,我們都在註收。我尊重你們偵辦,偵查不公開啦。然後第二個,但如果他還沒到違法,他只是違反來台目的,或者在執行相關策略,我們現在用的是取,我剛才聽文化部副部長、次長之說,會取消他的記者證嘛。那他背後所代表的媒體或組織,難道不用被處分嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:30,725 --> 00:09:54,255\n處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來做任何事情他有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等\n\n27\n00:09:55,296 --> 00:10:18,128\n有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走\n\n28\n00:10:20,049 --> 00:10:39,129\n到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織\n\n29\n00:10:40,765 --> 00:11:07,479\n我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬\n\n30\n00:11:08,539 --> 00:11:37,148\n公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦\n\n31\n00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:43,028\n就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體\n\n32\n00:11:43,789 --> 00:12:07,881\n有,我們剛剛也跟秦大偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。\n\n33\n00:12:08,641 --> 00:12:32,563\n再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒\n\n34\n00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:41,900\n進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁\n\n35\n00:12:43,504 --> 00:13:06,235\n我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對\n\n36\n00:13:08,769 --> 00:13:10,010\n中共的刑法叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序\n\n37\n00:13:32,691 --> 00:13:33,351\n接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3992\t21410\t謝謝主席麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委請就位巡台謝謝委員長局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體\n24082\t49298\t曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來了解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機\n50936\t78349\t也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他\n79269\t94212\t可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪喔,你懂我意思嗎?不教而殺,為之虐嘛。所以這些東西,我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員\n102495\t118900\t對媒體下指導棋或者政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長\n121530\t137367\t委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段我剛才聽到\n138382\t161564\t情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替\n162665\t188977\t北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了十多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰啊宣揚中共的政治主張我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在\n190758\t218799\t國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久我們盡快我們只能說盡快蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在正辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容\n219720\t238097\t檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個臺高檢署臺高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了對我們對我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是對我們會移送起訴\n239625\t255157\t在英文叫Cooking在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查它的蚂蚱瓜它整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了3年5年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎?\n256157\t278584\t我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法對法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個\n281576\t301506\t我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎\n302446\t320336\t明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後\n321923\t346590\t作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情\n348266\t364749\t將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊來\n366131\t383585\t起訴就是起訴書不起訴書常常寫的不明不白這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件不代表沒這件事情懂我意思嗎所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書要把它寫清楚會不會起訴我不知道嘛\n384286\t405060\t沒有看到證據好 剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待\n406781\t430926\t我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見\n432535\t460101\t實際上委員講得沒有錯,過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性對,連提出一些修法建議嘛,像之前我們國安無法出道都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法,我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看齁\n461061\t480429\t中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部\n481289\t495810\t或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量\n497805\t520636\t涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照秦公法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律\n521696\t541593\t我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講\n542273\t567666\t有沒有違法的樣子?有沒有在註收這樣的狀況?有,我們都在註收。我尊重你們偵辦,偵查不公開啦。然後第二個,但如果他還沒到違法,他只是違反來台目的,或者在執行相關策略,我們現在用的是取,我剛才聽文化部副部長、次長之說,會取消他的記者證嘛。那他背後所代表的媒體或組織,難道不用被處分嗎?\n570725\t594255\t處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來做任何事情他有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等\n595296\t618128\t有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走\n620049\t639129\t到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織\n640765\t667479\t我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬\n668539\t697148\t公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦\n698530\t703028\t就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體\n703789\t727881\t有,我們剛剛也跟秦大偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。\n728641\t752563\t再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒\n754280\t761900\t進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁\n763504\t786235\t我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對\n788769\t790010\t中共的刑法叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序\n812691\t813351\t接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委請就位巡台謝謝委員長局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體\n曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來了解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機\n也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他\n可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪喔,你懂我意思嗎?不教而殺,為之虐嘛。所以這些東西,我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員\n對媒體下指導棋或者政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長\n委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段我剛才聽到\n情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替\n北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了十多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰啊宣揚中共的政治主張我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在\n國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久我們盡快我們只能說盡快蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在正辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容\n檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個臺高檢署臺高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了對我們對我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是對我們會移送起訴\n在英文叫Cooking在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查它的蚂蚱瓜它整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了3年5年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎?\n我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法對法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個\n我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎\n明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後\n作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情\n將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊來\n起訴就是起訴書不起訴書常常寫的不明不白這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件不代表沒這件事情懂我意思嗎所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書要把它寫清楚會不會起訴我不知道嘛\n沒有看到證據好 剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待\n我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見\n實際上委員講得沒有錯,過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性對,連提出一些修法建議嘛,像之前我們國安無法出道都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法,我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看齁\n中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部\n或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量\n涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照秦公法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律\n我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講\n有沒有違法的樣子?有沒有在註收這樣的狀況?有,我們都在註收。我尊重你們偵辦,偵查不公開啦。然後第二個,但如果他還沒到違法,他只是違反來台目的,或者在執行相關策略,我們現在用的是取,我剛才聽文化部副部長、次長之說,會取消他的記者證嘛。那他背後所代表的媒體或組織,難道不用被處分嗎?\n處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來做任何事情他有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等\n有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走\n到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織\n我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬\n公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦\n就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體\n有,我們剛剛也跟秦大偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。\n再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒\n進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁\n我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對\n中共的刑法叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序\n接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.992 --> 00:21.410\n謝謝主席麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委請就位巡台謝謝委員長局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體\n\n00:24.082 --> 00:49.298\n曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來了解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機\n\n00:50.936 --> 01:18.349\n也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他\n\n01:19.269 --> 01:34.212\n可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪喔,你懂我意思嗎?不教而殺,為之虐嘛。所以這些東西,我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員\n\n01:42.495 --> 01:58.900\n對媒體下指導棋或者政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長\n\n02:01.530 --> 02:17.367\n委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段我剛才聽到\n\n02:18.382 --> 02:41.564\n情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替\n\n02:42.665 --> 03:08.977\n北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了十多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰啊宣揚中共的政治主張我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在\n\n03:10.758 --> 03:38.799\n國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久我們盡快我們只能說盡快蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在正辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容\n\n03:39.720 --> 03:58.097\n檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個臺高檢署臺高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了對我們對我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是對我們會移送起訴\n\n03:59.625 --> 04:15.157\n在英文叫Cooking在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查它的蚂蚱瓜它整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了3年5年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎?\n\n04:16.157 --> 04:38.584\n我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法對法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個\n\n04:41.576 --> 05:01.506\n我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎\n\n05:02.446 --> 05:20.336\n明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後\n\n05:21.923 --> 05:46.590\n作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情\n\n05:48.266 --> 06:04.749\n將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊來\n\n06:06.131 --> 06:23.585\n起訴就是起訴書不起訴書常常寫的不明不白這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件不代表沒這件事情懂我意思嗎所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書要把它寫清楚會不會起訴我不知道嘛\n\n06:24.286 --> 06:45.060\n沒有看到證據好剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待\n\n06:46.781 --> 07:10.926\n我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見\n\n07:12.535 --> 07:40.101\n實際上委員講得沒有錯,過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性對,連提出一些修法建議嘛,像之前我們國安無法出道都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法,我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看齁\n\n07:41.061 --> 08:00.429\n中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部\n\n08:01.289 --> 08:15.810\n或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量\n\n08:17.805 --> 08:40.636\n涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照秦公法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律\n\n08:41.696 --> 09:01.593\n我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講\n\n09:02.273 --> 09:27.666\n有沒有違法的樣子?有沒有在註收這樣的狀況?有,我們都在註收。我尊重你們偵辦,偵查不公開啦。然後第二個,但如果他還沒到違法,他只是違反來台目的,或者在執行相關策略,我們現在用的是取,我剛才聽文化部副部長、次長之說,會取消他的記者證嘛。那他背後所代表的媒體或組織,難道不用被處分嗎?\n\n09:30.725 --> 09:54.255\n處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來做任何事情他有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等\n\n09:55.296 --> 10:18.128\n有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走\n\n10:20.049 --> 10:39.129\n到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織\n\n10:40.765 --> 11:07.479\n我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬\n\n11:08.539 --> 11:37.148\n公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦\n\n11:38.530 --> 11:43.028\n就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體\n\n11:43.789 --> 12:07.881\n有,我們剛剛也跟秦大偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。\n\n12:08.641 --> 12:32.563\n再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒\n\n12:34.280 --> 12:41.900\n進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁\n\n12:43.504 --> 13:06.235\n我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對\n\n13:08.769 --> 13:10.010\n中共的刑法叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序\n\n13:32.691 --> 13:33.351\n接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.992,"end":21.41,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委請就位巡台謝謝委員長局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體"},{"start":24.082,"end":49.298,"text":"曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來了解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機"},{"start":50.936,"end":78.349,"text":"也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他"},{"start":79.269,"end":94.212,"text":"可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪喔,你懂我意思嗎?不教而殺,為之虐嘛。所以這些東西,我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員"},{"start":102.495,"end":118.9,"text":"對媒體下指導棋或者政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長"},{"start":121.53,"end":137.367,"text":"委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段我剛才聽到"},{"start":138.382,"end":161.564,"text":"情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替"},{"start":162.665,"end":188.977,"text":"北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了十多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰啊宣揚中共的政治主張我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在"},{"start":190.758,"end":218.799,"text":"國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久我們盡快我們只能說盡快蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在正辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容"},{"start":219.72,"end":238.097,"text":"檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個臺高檢署臺高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了對我們對我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是對我們會移送起訴"},{"start":239.625,"end":255.157,"text":"在英文叫Cooking在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查它的蚂蚱瓜它整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了3年5年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎?"},{"start":256.157,"end":278.584,"text":"我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法對法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個"},{"start":281.576,"end":301.506,"text":"我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎"},{"start":302.446,"end":320.336,"text":"明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後"},{"start":321.923,"end":346.59,"text":"作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情"},{"start":348.266,"end":364.749,"text":"將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊來"},{"start":366.131,"end":383.585,"text":"起訴就是起訴書不起訴書常常寫的不明不白這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件不代表沒這件事情懂我意思嗎所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書要把它寫清楚會不會起訴我不知道嘛"},{"start":384.286,"end":405.06,"text":"沒有看到證據好 剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待"},{"start":406.781,"end":430.926,"text":"我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":432.535,"end":460.101,"text":"實際上委員講得沒有錯,過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性對,連提出一些修法建議嘛,像之前我們國安無法出道都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法,我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看齁"},{"start":461.061,"end":480.429,"text":"中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部"},{"start":481.289,"end":495.81,"text":"或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量"},{"start":497.805,"end":520.636,"text":"涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照秦公法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律"},{"start":521.696,"end":541.593,"text":"我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講"},{"start":542.273,"end":567.666,"text":"有沒有違法的樣子?有沒有在註收這樣的狀況?有,我們都在註收。我尊重你們偵辦,偵查不公開啦。然後第二個,但如果他還沒到違法,他只是違反來台目的,或者在執行相關策略,我們現在用的是取,我剛才聽文化部副部長、次長之說,會取消他的記者證嘛。那他背後所代表的媒體或組織,難道不用被處分嗎?"},{"start":570.725,"end":594.255,"text":"處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來做任何事情他有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等"},{"start":595.296,"end":618.128,"text":"有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走"},{"start":620.049,"end":639.129,"text":"到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織"},{"start":640.765,"end":667.479,"text":"我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬"},{"start":668.539,"end":697.148,"text":"公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":698.53,"end":703.028,"text":"就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體"},{"start":703.789,"end":727.881,"text":"有,我們剛剛也跟秦大偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。"},{"start":728.641,"end":752.563,"text":"再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒"},{"start":754.28,"end":761.9,"text":"進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁"},{"start":763.504,"end":786.235,"text":"我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對"},{"start":788.769,"end":790.01,"text":"中共的刑法叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序"},{"start":812.691,"end":813.351,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"}]}}}}