{"id":154568,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154568","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256accc07bff86bd110bce876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db0f8f666608caa92105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:35:37 - 11:46:25","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T11:35:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T11:46:25+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時35分）謝謝主席，先請文化部、國安局跟調查局。"],["主席：請國安局、文化部還有調查局，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：其實我的題目跟在場的所有官員都有關，不過我們一個一個來，首先我先請文化部王政次。","次長你好。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：我們看到這是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了，蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探詢藏獨情資，且依國安法已經起訴了。其實我舉這個案子，我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中，但我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來，中國的滲透早就已經伸出魔爪，包括連文化部這裡都有，更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是中國記者的部分。所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中，文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查？"],["王次長時思：如果以這個蒙藏文化中心的案子來說，我們在當時就立刻進行了一些約談的行政調查，這個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴，所以在當時我們立即在隔天就停職，就是請他先離開工作場域，避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料。"],["林委員楚茵：所以當時刺探相關情資的這位人員是受到中國相關組織所吸納或吸收嗎？你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：就我們的行政調查，因為本案已經進入司法調查，我就不特別說明內容，不過就我們的理解來說，他不這樣認為，他覺得那是他的朋友。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我要強調的是，過去一直以來，中國滲透的面向是非常多的，包括……主席，我要請NCC，我也請文化部或者是國安局、調查局來瞭解一下，有媒體人直接在電視節目上面說，他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價手機，誰寄的他不知道，但他說打開來真好用。我先問一下調查局的局長，局長，如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但不知道是誰，寄一個手機給你，竟然敢拿來用，而且還在電視上講它好用，這個不奇怪嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這非常奇怪。"],["林委員楚茵：那這樣的案子，你們有沒有想要主動來做調查跟瞭解呢？"],["陳局長白立：我想媒體朋友收到客人寄來的禮物，應該不會是我們調查局立案的依據，可能還要參酌是否還有其他比較可疑的跡象、徵候，我們可能才會有立案的條件。"],["林委員楚茵：所以國安局呢？如果蔡局長今天收到一支來自中國，卻不知道誰寄給你的，號稱是中國朋友送的高價手機，還是某個品牌的，結果竟然說：哇！真好用。這個不奇怪嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想對於一些……"],["林委員楚茵：如果沒有人檢舉，我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：資通訊安全的問題確實是我們關注的重點，對於對岸所製作的手機或是相關通訊軟體的資安風險，我想各單位都有做一些警示。委員所提到的這個案例到底有沒有違法的樣態，可能目前還沒有構成要件。"],["林委員楚茵：好，如果調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態，來！NCC，這就變成打廣告囉！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員……"],["林委員楚茵：因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們違法的樣態沒有很明確，本席從媒體出來，我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面、尤其是新聞頻道做置入的，那這就置入了，是不是？因為如果沒有違法樣態，那就是置入啦！兩個一定有一個嘛！他不違法，因為剛剛都說他的違法樣態還不明顯，不一定是中國的資通訊，那好啊！那他就是為特定品牌打廣告囉，NCC有沒有要開罰？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，按照廣電法是對商品或服務有置入行銷……"],["林委員楚茵：他說這個手機很好用，隨手一拍驚為天人……"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：假使有具體的檢舉，我們會……"],["林委員楚茵：好，我具名檢舉。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好，假使民眾有檢舉的話，我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我要強調的是，其實在場的各位都針對國家安全肩負起非常重要的任務，因為中國在22條所營造的長臂管轄是一個新的法律戰的應對，包括蔡局長，我們其實在這裡不只講過一次……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["林委員楚茵：我們講到的是，這樣的22條最高可以判死刑，對於民眾來講，尤其現在是暑假期間，剛剛前面有非常多的委員都特別提到，如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中的方式，一方面滲透臺灣、一方面用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌……我舉個例子，如果以現在中國所設定的，利用職權再教育，以文化、歷史跟新聞媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改臺灣是中國的一部分，如果一個老師只是在課堂上講中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國，那麼他會不會心生恐懼？","再來談到剛剛的媒體人，他收到一支手機，這到底是不是禮物？是不是要他來為中國美言？如果講臺灣、中華民國不是中華人民共和國的一部分可能會被判死刑，但是收個手機當作禮物、來做美言，他可能不會有任何的後果，所以像這樣，如果連一般民眾要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我想法律戰確實是我們關注的重點，在國際上，中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造國際一中的框架，在這框架之下限縮臺灣的主權地位。","另外，兩岸交流也正像委員所提到的，他們提出所謂的懲獨22條，以此希望對臺灣實施長臂管轄，但臺灣是一個主權、民主、自由的國家，不會讓他們的長臂管轄到我們境內來，但風險在於國人到對岸去，要特別瞭解他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險。這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的詢答機會跟國人報告，一定要注意到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡，以及剛剛王定宇委員提醒我們把這些相關的國人背景樣態，哪些人是高風險的，也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚瞭解這個狀況，這我們會來努力。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我們其實現在要面對的是……本席其實在總質詢時也特別詢問了卓榮泰院長，卓院長當時就講了，最可怕的其實是文化入侵，在文化入侵的情況底下，它不會有任何的型態、樣態，它就是方方面面的滲透臺灣，它可以是用所謂融合、融臺，也可能是威嚇打臺灣。如果在我質詢之後，請問院長會找相關的部會針對文化入侵做相關的示警，或者是跨部會的瞭解嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：行政院的部分可能要請行政院來說明……"],["林委員楚茵：好，主席，有請陸委會。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["林委員楚茵：卓院長已經特別提到文化入侵是最可怕的，而且行於無形之間，剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調，今天不是只有在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委，包括民進黨立委所關心的媒體在後面監控，它說不定已經滲透進去了，包括剛剛我講的華為手機事件，你們有收到相關的訊息嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們有注意到這樣的訊息。"],["林委員楚茵：這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解，包括行政院相關單位，到底由誰來負責主責？因為國安局或調查局……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：到目前為止，文化入侵有一塊是陸委會在處理，譬如說宗教或者是其他文化方面，所以陸委會其實對這方面的訊息相當注意，有一部分可能是文化部會去理解，但因為文化入侵比較不是一個用法律可以去界定的概念，所以我覺得對調查局或者是相關司法單位來說會比較困難，因為中共講說入臺、入腦、入心，它入到你的腦、入到你的心，可是在表面上可能又沒有違反任何法律……"],["林委員楚茵：所以副主委您的言下之意是，有一個部分是陸委會負責，但又有一部分是文化部王次長這裡負責，那這樣的分工會不會出現了盲點，沒有一個統合訊息的機制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：確實政府在相關的防禦工作上，盲點一定是有的，所以我們經常就是……現在這個有點像是對方的攻擊非常多面，但是防守的部分確實有點……很多時候會有點疲於奔命。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以……"],["蔡局長明彥：我補充說明一下，就臺灣來講，要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透，最大、最重要的武器就是法律，所以我們的法律工具一定要完備，這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員一再提醒我們，我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態，在適用我們國家法律過程當中又有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方，這部分我們配合貴院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考。"],["林委員楚茵：好，局長，因為時間有限，我只希望透過這幾個具體案例的提示，希望國安局、調查局或是其他相關的部會能夠有所整合，千萬不要出現一個案例才去動作，那這個時候可能他們就已經拍拍屁股走人、已經離開了，這其實是我們最不希望的，是不是可以把其他相關且同樣的樣態再做進一步的整理，交給我們外交及國防委員會？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們來處理。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員、洪申翰、洪申翰委員不在。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有陳永康委員、洪申翰委員、牛煦庭委員、葉元之委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"154568","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154568","tool":"pyannote","id":"154568-pyannote"},"job_id":"CRStVCoh5qIBc2fd","queued_at":"2024-07-08 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639.062, \"end\": 639.082, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 639.082, \"end\": 639.102, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,869 --> 00:00:05,051\n首先我先請文化部呃王珍次長你好呃我們來看到就是\n\n2\n00:00:21,801 --> 00:00:51,041\n這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是\n\n3\n00:00:51,981 --> 00:00:59,667\n中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查\n\n4\n00:01:00,768 --> 00:01:29,029\n如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這一個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣\n\n5\n00:01:31,331 --> 00:01:56,807\n就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦好所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下\n\n6\n00:01:58,608 --> 00:02:25,981\n這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎\n\n7\n00:02:26,841 --> 00:02:50,688\n這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢\n\n8\n00:02:51,428 --> 00:03:03,834\n今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用\n\n9\n00:03:05,814 --> 00:03:30,565\n這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些...如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果\n\n10\n00:03:31,745 --> 00:03:53,929\n調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是\n\n11\n00:03:54,429 --> 00:04:06,786\n因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰\n\n12\n00:04:09,858 --> 00:04:21,154\n報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉\n\n13\n00:04:26,601 --> 00:04:32,605\n好那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條它所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是\n\n14\n00:04:51,779 --> 00:05:09,813\n這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子\n\n15\n00:05:10,774 --> 00:05:27,609\n如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國\n\n16\n00:05:28,459 --> 00:05:56,453\n那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦\n\n17\n00:05:57,469 --> 00:06:23,282\n對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種長臂管轄但台灣是一個主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於\n\n18\n00:06:24,462 --> 00:06:45,971\n國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定友也在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力\n\n19\n00:06:47,512 --> 00:06:53,015\n好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台\n\n20\n00:07:12,585 --> 00:07:12,705\n請副主委\n\n21\n00:07:40,560 --> 00:08:04,731\n相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎\n\n22\n00:08:05,984 --> 00:08:20,515\n我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組折因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理\n\n23\n00:08:25,699 --> 00:08:44,765\n包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念\n\n24\n00:08:45,305 --> 00:08:48,006\n所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責\n\n25\n00:09:13,112 --> 00:09:41,085\n那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是\n\n26\n00:09:42,466 --> 00:10:08,568\n我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合國務院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考\n\n27\n00:10:08,908 --> 00:10:09,208\n好,謝謝委員提醒,好,我們來處理\n\n28\n00:10:38,379 --> 00:10:39,102\n謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員．洪森翰、洪森翰委員不在\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n869\t5051\t首先我先請文化部 呃 王珍次長你好 呃 我們來看到就是\n21801\t51041\t這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是\n51981\t59667\t中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查\n60768\t89029\t如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這一個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣\n91331\t116807\t就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦好所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下\n118608\t145981\t這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎\n146841\t170688\t這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢\n171428\t183834\t今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用\n185814\t210565\t這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些...如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果\n211745\t233929\t調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是\n234429\t246786\t因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰\n249858\t261154\t報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉\n266601\t272605\t好 那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好 我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條它所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是\n291779\t309813\t這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子\n310774\t327609\t如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國\n328459\t356453\t那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦\n357469\t383282\t對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種長臂管轄但台灣是一個主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於\n384462\t405971\t國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定友也在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力\n407512\t413015\t好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台\n432585\t432705\t請副主委\n460560\t484731\t相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎\n485984\t500515\t我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組折因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理\n505699\t524765\t包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念\n525305\t528006\t所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責\n553112\t581085\t那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是\n582466\t608568\t我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合國務院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考\n608908\t609208\t好,謝謝委員提醒,好,我們來處理\n638379\t639102\t謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員．洪森翰、洪森翰委員不在\n","txt":"首先我先請文化部 呃 王珍次長你好 呃 我們來看到就是\n這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是\n中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查\n如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這一個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣\n就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦好所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下\n這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎\n這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢\n今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用\n這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些...如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果\n調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是\n因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰\n報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉\n好 那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好 我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條它所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是\n這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子\n如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國\n那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦\n對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種長臂管轄但台灣是一個主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於\n國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定友也在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力\n好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台\n請副主委\n相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎\n我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組折因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理\n包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念\n所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責\n那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是\n我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合國務院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考\n好,謝謝委員提醒,好,我們來處理\n謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員．洪森翰、洪森翰委員不在\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.869 --> 00:05.051\n首先我先請文化部呃王珍次長你好呃我們來看到就是\n\n00:21.801 --> 00:51.041\n這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是\n\n00:51.981 --> 00:59.667\n中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查\n\n01:00.768 --> 01:29.029\n如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這一個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣\n\n01:31.331 --> 01:56.807\n就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦好所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下\n\n01:58.608 --> 02:25.981\n這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎\n\n02:26.841 --> 02:50.688\n這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢\n\n02:51.428 --> 03:03.834\n今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用\n\n03:05.814 --> 03:30.565\n這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些...如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果\n\n03:31.745 --> 03:53.929\n調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是\n\n03:54.429 --> 04:06.786\n因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰\n\n04:09.858 --> 04:21.154\n報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉\n\n04:26.601 --> 04:32.605\n好那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條它所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是\n\n04:51.779 --> 05:09.813\n這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子\n\n05:10.774 --> 05:27.609\n如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國\n\n05:28.459 --> 05:56.453\n那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦\n\n05:57.469 --> 06:23.282\n對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種長臂管轄但台灣是一個主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於\n\n06:24.462 --> 06:45.971\n國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定友也在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力\n\n06:47.512 --> 06:53.015\n好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台\n\n07:12.585 --> 07:12.705\n請副主委\n\n07:40.560 --> 08:04.731\n相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎\n\n08:05.984 --> 08:20.515\n我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組折因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理\n\n08:25.699 --> 08:44.765\n包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念\n\n08:45.305 --> 08:48.006\n所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責\n\n09:13.112 --> 09:41.085\n那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是\n\n09:42.466 --> 10:08.568\n我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合國務院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考\n\n10:08.908 --> 10:09.208\n好,謝謝委員提醒,好,我們來處理\n\n10:38.379 --> 10:39.102\n謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員．洪森翰、洪森翰委員不在\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.869,"end":5.051,"text":"首先我先請文化部 呃 王珍次長你好 呃 我們來看到就是"},{"start":21.801,"end":51.041,"text":"這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是"},{"start":51.981,"end":59.667,"text":"中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查"},{"start":60.768,"end":89.029,"text":"如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這一個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣"},{"start":91.331,"end":116.807,"text":"就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦好所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下"},{"start":118.608,"end":145.981,"text":"這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎"},{"start":146.841,"end":170.688,"text":"這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢"},{"start":171.428,"end":183.834,"text":"今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用"},{"start":185.814,"end":210.565,"text":"這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些...如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果"},{"start":211.745,"end":233.929,"text":"調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是"},{"start":234.429,"end":246.786,"text":"因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰"},{"start":249.858,"end":261.154,"text":"報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉"},{"start":266.601,"end":272.605,"text":"好 那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好 我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條它所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是"},{"start":291.779,"end":309.813,"text":"這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子"},{"start":310.774,"end":327.609,"text":"如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國"},{"start":328.459,"end":356.453,"text":"那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":357.469,"end":383.282,"text":"對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種長臂管轄但台灣是一個主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於"},{"start":384.462,"end":405.971,"text":"國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定友也在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力"},{"start":407.512,"end":413.015,"text":"好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台"},{"start":432.585,"end":432.705,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":460.56,"end":484.731,"text":"相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎"},{"start":485.984,"end":500.515,"text":"我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組折因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理"},{"start":505.699,"end":524.765,"text":"包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念"},{"start":525.305,"end":528.006,"text":"所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責"},{"start":553.112,"end":581.085,"text":"那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是"},{"start":582.466,"end":608.568,"text":"我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合國務院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考"},{"start":608.908,"end":609.208,"text":"好,謝謝委員提醒,好,我們來處理"},{"start":638.379,"end":639.102,"text":"謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員．洪森翰、洪森翰委員不在"}]}}}}