{"id":154587,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154587","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618af0941e40c330665a09fb1100d58f4be2199544e32500e6b0f8b18e26c9fd1175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"15:51:05 - 16:07:17","影片長度":"00:16:12","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T15:51:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T16:07:17+08:00","duration":972,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":323,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（15時51分）謝謝副院長。各位、大家午安，是不是還是請我們卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長午安。勞動節放假不同步的困擾對於同一機關裡面多種身分、多種制度來講，其實不只是社會很困擾，機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。今年年初，在內閣還沒有改組以前，其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假？我們的前院長陳建仁院長表達他支持，所以從行政院到人事行政總處，到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議，明年有機會全國都統一放假。老實說，大家覺得好像釋放出一個善意了，社會也都在期待，大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及，大家想明年有機會的話應該可以放假齊一，就是同步放假，不管是公務部門或者是民間的整個經濟部門通通都統一放假；但是人事行政總處剛公布了明年度休假假期表出來，五一勞動節仍然維持原案，只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費，其實很多人都很失望。","我們在這裡要跟院長請示，你知道臺灣最重要、民間壓力最大的大概就是生產部門，可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假，所以像金融機關、工業生產的各個部門，他們都同意休假，也都很多人放假，尤其金融單位都放假了。我們在這裡講再剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外，人數最多就是公務機關的公務員，而且最可憐的、最難受的莫過於育兒階段的老師，自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩，還要到學校去上課，然後顧大家的小孩。沒有適用勞基法的人，還必須要上班，然後請人去照顧自己的小孩，或者是自行請假，這種狀況真的是很多困擾。院長，有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年（2025年）休假齊一，五一勞動節全國都來放假？"],["卓院長榮泰：要請委員能夠理解，在6月底的時候，人事總處有送來相關的報告跟內容，我們也在那之前跟其他的幾個部會也做了一些意見上的溝通，最後我是決定今年還是維持現狀。"],["林委員淑芬：明年還是今年？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年公布，就是公布明年的行事曆，所以明年還是維持……"],["林委員淑芬：所執的理由是什麼？陳建仁前院長在這裡……本來大家就已經在期待，他支持了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全進行到大家共識……"],["林委員淑芬：最大的困擾是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：各方面的意見都有，表示這樣的放假會不會帶動其他個別身分類別的討論，我們覺得這個有必要再從長……"],["林委員淑芬：800萬、1,000萬適用勞基法的勞工都放假了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我承認我們在……"],["林委員淑芬：幾乎只剩下公務員。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我承認我們在尋求共識的過程當中，今年還沒有這麼順利，但我們會繼續跟大家探索最好的模式是怎麼樣，未來我們再從長計議。"],["林委員淑芬：如果是這樣的話，其實你們行政部門有回復給我們，他們說因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議，機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。我認為這不是理由，立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼有效力過，其實真正的原因是成本，但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了，我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的問題，至少在這裡先承諾我們，你們多久以內會召集跨部會研議？據我們所知，行政部門陳建仁前院長雖然支持這樣的方向，但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議，我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力、大刀闊斧地瞭解或請內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論，行政院召集相關單位共同協商，朝全國放假一致的方向去研議，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，針對這幾個重要的部會，雖然我們沒有召集會議的形式，但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的，得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致，甚至包括外界也是這個樣子，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：就剩下公務機關而已，沒有外界啊！經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。"],["卓院長榮泰：會產生很多其他的效果，明年的行事曆今年已經公布了，明年我們還是依照現狀來處理，我們在適當的時間當中，如果有必要會再用剛剛委員建議的方式來徵詢更多的意見……"],["林委員淑芬：是不是請院長再一次召開真正的跨部會會議去研議一下，這樣子可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：適當的時間再跟委員報告，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：這個是很重要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：事實上我們都知道，現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的，其他全國都放假，可是一個機關不同調，一個社會也不同調，真的有很多很多的困擾，也不差這一天，何必跟公務員計較？","另外，接下來要跟院長討論的是SRF的問題，有關SRF，大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議，我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長，我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團，要針對各廠進行體檢，就原料製造端和使用端上都要體檢、要一起做，你們也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案，但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論更細節的部分。","第一個，使用SRF作為燃料的工廠，過去5年抽驗了17個工廠，一共217根的管道，其中99%檢驗出戴奧辛。217根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根煙道的戴奧辛是零，其他99%都檢出戴奧辛。戴奧辛的多或少只是這樣的差異，如果以現在既有的固定污染源──戴奧辛的排放標準來看，這217根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5奈克，如果用這樣的標準來看，其實有兩根煙道都已經超標了，但是依據你們6月公布的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準，因為現在的SRF其實是要放到工業生產裡面當成輔助燃料的，所以它是要放到工業部門去燒的，工業部門使用的鍋爐、所產生的空氣污染排放標準，你們當然希望嚴格一點，因為你知道有污染的固定污染源或者是焚化廠，他們在做環評的時候，其實都有相當的設置標準了，比如說，它不會在人口密度高的都市的中間去設置，可是不要忘了，工業生產的工廠，其實人口活動、人口密度是相當高的，所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講，我們的標準應該小於0.1奈克，在這種狀況裡面，檢出戴奧辛的就有15根煙道超標，而且重點是這裡面含有水泥窯，從水泥窯的煙道、煙囟裡面檢出來的戴奧辛是超標的，過去環保單位、大家都說，水泥窯是鹼性的環境，不會燒出戴奧辛，所以你們大家都放水，不管制水泥窯，讓這些大財團、大型業者的水泥製造商，其實都沒有在管戴奧辛的，結果這次看起來，他們不但有檢出戴奧辛，而且還是超標，所以這種高溫的水泥窯，並不像業者所說的，不會產生戴奧辛，而且它的監測濃度，以台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮和平場為例，它的戴奧辛濃度不是你們的標準0.1奈克，而是檢出0.215奈克，所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準，你們還說，除了水泥業以外，都要遵循這個標準。換句話說，你們的空污管制的排放標準，其實是排除了水泥業，但是我們不懂為什麼你要排除水泥業的適用呢？請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實有兩個部分，因為過去對於SRF的製造，其實是非常的含混，所以我們預計體檢之後會有顯著的分級，在分級之後，如果它燒的料是正確的，白料就沒有這樣的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：這沒有強制力，部長，你不要在這裡唬弄我們，沒有強制力的分級，你國家的管制標準是產品標準，你們仍然是最低標準，你這個分級只是建議，沒有強制力啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個我們會提升到以管理的辦法來處理，因為過去只是指引而已。另外一個，委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分，其實我們未來……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼要排除水泥窯？現在所有跡象和證據，還有採樣的樣本都證明，水泥窯不但不像業者說的，不會燒出戴奧辛，而且還燒出超標的戴奧辛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在所有相關的，第一個，一定會比照，全部都要有；水泥窯的部分，因為過去他們的專業認知，是因為它的溫度高，所以戴奧辛燒不出來……"],["林委員淑芬：現在就有，可是實務面就是有檢出啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你們新的辦法就還是排除它啊！你們新的修正草案第八條規定，除了水泥業以外，其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者，準用本條文相關規定。你還是排除了水泥業啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個目前只是草案，所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。","我們現在來講工業鍋爐，你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊，工業區進進出出活動的人相當多，人口密度相當的高，所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西，其實是會影響受體的，就是工業區的排放大家都會吸得到，以前燒戴奧辛排放潛勢比較低的煤炭，大家都覺得不需要檢測，可是現在你要混燒了，工業鍋爐可以燒SRF，SRF會產生戴奧辛，還有現在產出的經檢測，甚至還有塑化劑。但是在整個燒的過程，你們有管制標準、排放的標準，可是它是混燒，混燒表示它燒燃煤，然後也燒SRF，但是混燒的狀況是，它會稀釋掉戴奧辛的濃度，所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的戴奧辛排放標準來規範，只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐，那麼這些稀釋的效應，會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標，它就沒有違反這個規定，就沒有超出排放標準，可是我們都知道，工業鍋爐的規模龐大，排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍；而透過稀釋混燒達標的廢氣，它的戴奧辛濃度再乘以龐大的排氣量以後，排放的總量可能不下於焚化爐！這樣的排放加成作用，環境部真的有思考到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在有17個使用SRF所謂工業用的或是說水泥窯，我們未來會全部、逐一加嚴到標準。所以委員提到的問題，我們的確現在……"],["林委員淑芬：你們的草案、你們的標準恐怕還太寬鬆。另外，鍋爐空污排放標準並沒有監測戴奧辛的生成物質之一─氯，而使用SRF作為替代燃料也要納入空污即時監測管制對象。工業區都是人口稠密地區，而你們最基礎的品質標準沒有改變，你的分級就沒有意義。因為時間有限，我最後講，你們現在以焚化廢棄物而行SRF之名的疑慮都還存在，用最低的品質、最低的門檻，這樣誰有動機去做出好一點的SRF呢？最後我再講，SRF製造廠有49家，使用廠有17家，你們不斷開放設立製造廠，讓製造的人越來越多，產出的量越來越多，可是原料變少了，廢棄物供給量不足，業者為了衝產能，會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料，或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不會有進口……"],["林委員淑芬：因為你們現在核准的執照許可，它的生產量遠遠超過事業廢棄物所能製造SRF來源的量。"],["彭部長啓明：我們9月時會提出完整的SRF體檢報告，我們會把委員的考慮放在裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我們就再檢視，目前看起來問題還很多。"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["林委員淑芬：院長，拜託。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請環境部加強檢測作為。"],["林委員淑芬：院長，齊一放假，拜託。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時7分）","繼續開會（16時17分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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\"end\": 791.698, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"燒\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 791.698, \"end\": 791.758, \"score\": 0.626}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 791.758, \"end\": 791.778, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"稀\", \"start\": 791.778, \"end\": 791.878, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 791.878, \"end\": 791.898, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 791.898, \"end\": 791.938, \"score\": 0.109}, {\"word\": \"澳\", \"start\": 791.938, \"end\": 791.958, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鋅\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 791.958, \"end\": 792.098, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"濃\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 792.098, \"end\": 792.118, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 796.681, \"end\": 817.017, \"text\": \"所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 796.681, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 968.662, \"end\": 968.882, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 968.882, \"end\": 968.902, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,946 --> 00:00:06,267\n林委員好\n\n2\n00:00:24,352 --> 00:00:41,870\n院長午安,就是說因為勞動解放假不同步的困擾,其實對於同一機關裡面多種身份、多種制度來講,其實不只是社會很困擾,其實機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。\n\n3\n00:00:42,791 --> 00:01:00,531\n那我今年年初啦,就是說內閣還沒有改組以前,其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假。那我們的前院長陳建仁院長他表達他說他支持。\n\n4\n00:01:01,753 --> 00:01:18,084\n前院長陳建仁前院長表達支持所以從行政院到人事行政總務到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議明年有機會統一這個全國都統一放假\n\n5\n00:01:19,967 --> 00:01:33,125\n老實說,大家覺得說好像釋放出一個善意了。社會也都在期待。大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及。大家想說明年有機會的話應該可以\n\n6\n00:01:35,829 --> 00:01:40,834\n但是人事行政總署剛公布了明年的年度休假的假期表出來,那五一勞動節仍然維持原案。\n\n7\n00:02:01,992 --> 00:02:26,507\n只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費其實是很多人都很失望這個我們在這裡要跟院長請示就是說你知道臺灣最重要民間壓力最大大概就是生產部門可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假所以像金融機關啊工業生產的各個部門啊\n\n8\n00:02:27,727 --> 00:02:55,274\n他們都同意休假也都很多人放假尤其是金融單位都放假了那我們在這裡講說在剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外那最多人數最多就是公務機關公務員那最可憐的像最難受的像莫過於像育兒階段的老師自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩還要到學校去顧去上課然後顧大家的小孩\n\n9\n00:02:56,354 --> 00:03:20,472\n那沒有適用勞基法的人還必須要上班然後請人去照顧自己的小孩或者是自行請假在這種狀況裡面真的是很多困擾這個院長有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年2025年這個休假期一五一勞動節全國都來放假\n\n10\n00:03:22,421 --> 00:03:22,801\n明年?\n\n11\n00:03:41,744 --> 00:04:04,837\n今年公布就是明年的行事曆所以明年還是維持所值的理由是什麼陳建仁前院長在這裡本來就已經大家期待說他認為是他支持的跟委員報告這個我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全的進行到最大的困擾是什麼各方面的意見都有啦\n\n12\n00:04:06,932 --> 00:04:34,009\n這樣的放假會不會帶動其他的相關個別的身份類別的一個討論,那我們覺得這個有必要在...因為台灣800萬、1000萬的勞工都放假了,是用勞基法的。只剩下幾乎最多的就剩下公務人員。我就說我承認我們在這個尋求共識的過程當中今年還沒有這麼順利,但我們會繼續的跟大家在探索最好的模式是怎麼樣,那未來我們再從長計議。\n\n13\n00:04:35,711 --> 00:04:55,991\n那如果是這樣的話,其實你們有,行政部門有回覆給我們啦。他講的一個是說,這個因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議啦,這個機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。那我認為這不是理由。立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼的有效力過。其實真正的原因是成本。\n\n14\n00:04:57,091 --> 00:05:24,822\n但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了。那我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的這個問題但至少在這裡先承諾我們說你多久以內會召集這個跨部會研議因為據我們所知行政部門陳建仁院長雖然支持這樣的方向但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議啊那\n\n15\n00:05:25,442 --> 00:05:48,778\n我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力那就大刀闊斧的就了解或請這個內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論然後行政院召集相關的單位共同協商朝全國放假一致的方向去研議可不可以報告委員這個重要的幾個部會\n\n16\n00:05:49,912 --> 00:06:01,598\n我們雖然沒有召集會議的形式,但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的。得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致,甚至包括外界也是這個樣子。這是公務機關而已,沒有外界。經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。\n\n17\n00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:05,580\n時間適當的時間再跟委員來報告\n\n18\n00:06:34,823 --> 00:06:50,458\n這個是很重要的,因為事實上我們都知道現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的,其他全國都放假,可是一個機關不同調,一個社會也不同調,真的有很多很多的困擾,不然差這幾天跟公務人員亂聊天。另外我們接下來討論的是SRF的問題,我想這個\n\n19\n00:06:57,978 --> 00:07:25,328\n院長克林,SRF大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議,但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議,我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長,我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團,要針對各場進行體檢,那就原料製造端和在使用端上都一直要體檢這樣子,要一起做。\n\n20\n00:07:25,788 --> 00:07:46,877\n那你也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案,但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論一下更細節。第一個,使用SRF作為燃料的工廠,這五年內,過去五年,抽驗了17個工廠,一共217根的管道,其中99%檢驗出帶澳芯。\n\n21\n00:07:50,758 --> 00:08:18,485\n兩百一十七根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根的煙道裡面代澳鋅是零其他百分之九十九都檢出代澳鋅代澳鋅的這個多或少只是這樣的差異若以現在既有的固定污染源代澳鋅的排放標準來看這兩百一十七根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5耐克\n\n22\n00:08:20,265 --> 00:08:20,325\n﹚林淑芬﹚\n\n23\n00:08:40,732 --> 00:08:41,332\n﹚林淑芬\n\n24\n00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:27,846\n不要忘了工業生產的工廠其實人口活動人口密度是相當高的所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講我們的那個標準應該小於0.1奈克在這種狀況裡面你檢出大躍興就有15根的煙道超標而且重點是\n\n25\n00:10:12,020 --> 00:10:34,499\n台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮的和平廠為例,它的代號新濃度不是你們的0.1奈克,而是減出0.215奈克。所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準的話,你們還說除了水泥液以外都要\n\n26\n00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:36,020\n報告委員其實這個\n\n27\n00:10:52,290 --> 00:11:16,456\n其實有兩個部分因為過去對於這個SRF的製造其實它非常的含混所以我們的預期的體檢之後會有顯著的分級如果分級之後其實它如果燒的料是正確的白料就沒有這樣的問題沒有強制力部長你莫多加糊弄我們沒有強制力的分級你國家的管制標準是產品標準你們仍然是最低標準\n\n28\n00:11:17,355 --> 00:11:43,150\n你這個分級只是建議阿沒有強制力阿報告委員這個我們會用強制提升到管理的辦法來處理因為過去是指引而已那另外一個委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分其實我們未來會為什麼要排除水泥窯而現在所有的跡象和證據還有採樣的樣本都證明水泥窯不但不像葉哲說的我們不會燒出大澳新而且還燒出超標的大澳新了\n\n29\n00:11:43,670 --> 00:12:11,961\n報告委員這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為它的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是實務面就是減粗啊對所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法你們新的辦法就是還是排除它啊你們新的修正草案第八條規定除了水泥液以外其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者準用本條文相關規定你還排除了水泥液啊\n\n30\n00:12:12,641 --> 00:12:35,715\n這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。好,謝謝。那我們現在講說工業鍋爐,你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊,工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多,人口密度相當的高,所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的,就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛。\n\n31\n00:12:36,195 --> 00:12:56,209\n那以前它燒這個大躍芯排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛可是現在你要混燒了工業鍋爐可以燒SRFSRF會產生大躍芯甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑\n\n32\n00:12:59,691 --> 00:13:12,118\n所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度\n\n33\n00:13:16,681 --> 00:13:37,017\n所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準\n\n34\n00:13:37,898 --> 00:13:58,863\n可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶耗性的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量\n\n35\n00:14:01,184 --> 00:14:26,502\n他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講\n\n36\n00:14:28,203 --> 00:14:29,164\n因為時間有限我最後講喔\n\n37\n00:14:47,583 --> 00:15:14,421\n所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了\n\n38\n00:15:14,881 --> 00:15:25,205\n那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的\n\n39\n00:15:33,069 --> 00:15:57,747\n他的生產量遠遠的超過,遠遠超過我們的CF75所能夠製造SRF的白油的量。所以說我們9月的時候已經有一個完整的SRF來提前報告,誰是委員要考慮我們放在哪?好,那我就再解釋。好,謝謝。但是他問題還很多,問題還很多。好。因為我們就不加強他檢測作用。對啊,因為呢?\n\n40\n00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:08,902\n好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八月會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3946\t6267\t林委員好\n24352\t41870\t院長午安,就是說因為勞動解放假不同步的困擾,其實對於同一機關裡面多種身份、多種制度來講,其實不只是社會很困擾,其實機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。\n42791\t60531\t那我今年年初啦,就是說內閣還沒有改組以前,其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假。那我們的前院長陳建仁院長他表達他說他支持。\n61753\t78084\t前院長陳建仁前院長表達支持所以從行政院到人事行政總務到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議明年有機會統一這個全國都統一放假\n79967\t93125\t老實說,大家覺得說好像釋放出一個善意了。社會也都在期待。大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及。大家想說明年有機會的話應該可以\n95829\t100834\t但是人事行政總署剛公布了明年的年度休假的假期表出來,那五一勞動節仍然維持原案。\n121992\t146507\t只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費其實是很多人都很失望這個我們在這裡要跟院長請示就是說你知道臺灣最重要民間壓力最大大概就是生產部門可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假所以像金融機關啊工業生產的各個部門啊\n147727\t175274\t他們都同意休假也都很多人放假尤其是金融單位都放假了那我們在這裡講說在剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外那最多人數最多就是公務機關公務員那最可憐的像最難受的像莫過於像育兒階段的老師自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩還要到學校去顧去上課然後顧大家的小孩\n176354\t200472\t那沒有適用勞基法的人還必須要上班然後請人去照顧自己的小孩或者是自行請假在這種狀況裡面真的是很多困擾這個院長有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年2025年這個休假期一五一勞動節全國都來放假\n202421\t202801\t明年?\n221744\t244837\t今年公布就是明年的行事曆所以明年還是維持所值的理由是什麼陳建仁前院長在這裡本來就已經大家期待說他認為是他支持的跟委員報告這個我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全的進行到最大的困擾是什麼各方面的意見都有啦\n246932\t274009\t這樣的放假會不會帶動其他的相關個別的身份類別的一個討論,那我們覺得這個有必要在...因為台灣800萬、1000萬的勞工都放假了,是用勞基法的。只剩下幾乎最多的就剩下公務人員。我就說我承認我們在這個尋求共識的過程當中今年還沒有這麼順利,但我們會繼續的跟大家在探索最好的模式是怎麼樣,那未來我們再從長計議。\n275711\t295991\t那如果是這樣的話,其實你們有,行政部門有回覆給我們啦。他講的一個是說,這個因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議啦,這個機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。那我認為這不是理由。立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼的有效力過。其實真正的原因是成本。\n297091\t324822\t但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了。那我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的這個問題但至少在這裡先承諾我們說你多久以內會召集這個跨部會研議因為據我們所知行政部門陳建仁院長雖然支持這樣的方向但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議啊那\n325442\t348778\t我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力那就大刀闊斧的就了解或請這個內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論然後行政院召集相關的單位共同協商朝全國放假一致的方向去研議可不可以報告委員這個重要的幾個部會\n349912\t361598\t我們雖然沒有召集會議的形式,但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的。得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致,甚至包括外界也是這個樣子。這是公務機關而已,沒有外界。經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。\n364960\t365580\t時間適當的時間再跟委員來報告\n394823\t410458\t這個是很重要的,因為事實上我們都知道現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的,其他全國都放假,可是一個機關不同調,一個社會也不同調,真的有很多很多的困擾,不然差這幾天跟公務人員亂聊天。另外我們接下來討論的是SRF的問題,我想這個\n417978\t445328\t院長克林,SRF大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議,但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議,我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長,我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團,要針對各場進行體檢,那就原料製造端和在使用端上都一直要體檢這樣子,要一起做。\n445788\t466877\t那你也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案,但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論一下更細節。第一個,使用SRF作為燃料的工廠,這五年內,過去五年,抽驗了17個工廠,一共217根的管道,其中99%檢驗出帶澳芯。\n470758\t498485\t兩百一十七根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根的煙道裡面代澳鋅是零其他百分之九十九都檢出代澳鋅代澳鋅的這個多或少只是這樣的差異若以現在既有的固定污染源代澳鋅的排放標準來看這兩百一十七根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5耐克\n500265\t500325\t﹚林淑芬﹚\n520732\t521332\t﹚林淑芬\n548320\t567846\t不要忘了工業生產的工廠其實人口活動人口密度是相當高的所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講我們的那個標準應該小於0.1奈克在這種狀況裡面你檢出大躍興就有15根的煙道超標而且重點是\n568746\t587534\t﹏﹏\n587534\t611920\t﹏﹏\n612020\t634499\t台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮的和平廠為例,它的代號新濃度不是你們的0.1奈克,而是減出0.215奈克。所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準的話,你們還說除了水泥液以外都要\n635760\t636020\t報告委員其實這個\n652290\t676456\t其實有兩個部分因為過去對於這個SRF的製造其實它非常的含混所以我們的預期的體檢之後會有顯著的分級如果分級之後其實它如果燒的料是正確的白料就沒有這樣的問題沒有強制力部長你莫多加糊弄我們沒有強制力的分級你國家的管制標準是產品標準你們仍然是最低標準\n677355\t703150\t你這個分級只是建議阿沒有強制力阿報告委員這個我們會用強制提升到管理的辦法來處理因為過去是指引而已那另外一個委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分其實我們未來會為什麼要排除水泥窯而現在所有的跡象和證據還有採樣的樣本都證明水泥窯不但不像葉哲說的我們不會燒出大澳新而且還燒出超標的大澳新了\n703670\t731961\t報告委員 這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為它的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是實務面就是減粗啊對 所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法你們新的辦法就是還是排除它啊你們新的修正草案第八條規定除了水泥液以外其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者準用本條文相關規定你還排除了水泥液啊\n732641\t755715\t這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。好,謝謝。那我們現在講說工業鍋爐,你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊,工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多,人口密度相當的高,所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的,就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛。\n756195\t776209\t那以前它燒這個大躍芯排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛可是現在你要混燒了工業鍋爐可以燒SRFSRF會產生大躍芯甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑\n779691\t792118\t所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度\n796681\t817017\t所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準\n817898\t838863\t可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶耗性的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量\n841184\t866502\t他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講\n868203\t869164\t因為時間有限我最後講喔\n887583\t914421\t所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了\n914881\t925205\t那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的\n933069\t957747\t他的生產量遠遠的超過,遠遠超過我們的CF75所能夠製造SRF的白油的量。所以說我們9月的時候已經有一個完整的SRF來提前報告,誰是委員要考慮我們放在哪?好,那我就再解釋。好,謝謝。但是他問題還很多,問題還很多。好。因為我們就不加強他檢測作用。對啊,因為呢?\n961830\t968902\t好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八月會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。\n","txt":"林委員好\n院長午安,就是說因為勞動解放假不同步的困擾,其實對於同一機關裡面多種身份、多種制度來講,其實不只是社會很困擾,其實機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。\n那我今年年初啦,就是說內閣還沒有改組以前,其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假。那我們的前院長陳建仁院長他表達他說他支持。\n前院長陳建仁前院長表達支持所以從行政院到人事行政總務到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議明年有機會統一這個全國都統一放假\n老實說,大家覺得說好像釋放出一個善意了。社會也都在期待。大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及。大家想說明年有機會的話應該可以\n但是人事行政總署剛公布了明年的年度休假的假期表出來,那五一勞動節仍然維持原案。\n只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費其實是很多人都很失望這個我們在這裡要跟院長請示就是說你知道臺灣最重要民間壓力最大大概就是生產部門可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假所以像金融機關啊工業生產的各個部門啊\n他們都同意休假也都很多人放假尤其是金融單位都放假了那我們在這裡講說在剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外那最多人數最多就是公務機關公務員那最可憐的像最難受的像莫過於像育兒階段的老師自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩還要到學校去顧去上課然後顧大家的小孩\n那沒有適用勞基法的人還必須要上班然後請人去照顧自己的小孩或者是自行請假在這種狀況裡面真的是很多困擾這個院長有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年2025年這個休假期一五一勞動節全國都來放假\n明年?\n今年公布就是明年的行事曆所以明年還是維持所值的理由是什麼陳建仁前院長在這裡本來就已經大家期待說他認為是他支持的跟委員報告這個我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全的進行到最大的困擾是什麼各方面的意見都有啦\n這樣的放假會不會帶動其他的相關個別的身份類別的一個討論,那我們覺得這個有必要在...因為台灣800萬、1000萬的勞工都放假了,是用勞基法的。只剩下幾乎最多的就剩下公務人員。我就說我承認我們在這個尋求共識的過程當中今年還沒有這麼順利,但我們會繼續的跟大家在探索最好的模式是怎麼樣,那未來我們再從長計議。\n那如果是這樣的話,其實你們有,行政部門有回覆給我們啦。他講的一個是說,這個因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議啦,這個機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。那我認為這不是理由。立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼的有效力過。其實真正的原因是成本。\n但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了。那我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的這個問題但至少在這裡先承諾我們說你多久以內會召集這個跨部會研議因為據我們所知行政部門陳建仁院長雖然支持這樣的方向但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議啊那\n我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力那就大刀闊斧的就了解或請這個內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論然後行政院召集相關的單位共同協商朝全國放假一致的方向去研議可不可以報告委員這個重要的幾個部會\n我們雖然沒有召集會議的形式,但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的。得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致,甚至包括外界也是這個樣子。這是公務機關而已,沒有外界。經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。\n時間適當的時間再跟委員來報告\n這個是很重要的,因為事實上我們都知道現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的,其他全國都放假,可是一個機關不同調,一個社會也不同調,真的有很多很多的困擾,不然差這幾天跟公務人員亂聊天。另外我們接下來討論的是SRF的問題,我想這個\n院長克林,SRF大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議,但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議,我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長,我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團,要針對各場進行體檢,那就原料製造端和在使用端上都一直要體檢這樣子,要一起做。\n那你也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案,但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論一下更細節。第一個,使用SRF作為燃料的工廠,這五年內,過去五年,抽驗了17個工廠,一共217根的管道,其中99%檢驗出帶澳芯。\n兩百一十七根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根的煙道裡面代澳鋅是零其他百分之九十九都檢出代澳鋅代澳鋅的這個多或少只是這樣的差異若以現在既有的固定污染源代澳鋅的排放標準來看這兩百一十七根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5耐克\n﹚林淑芬﹚\n﹚林淑芬\n不要忘了工業生產的工廠其實人口活動人口密度是相當高的所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講我們的那個標準應該小於0.1奈克在這種狀況裡面你檢出大躍興就有15根的煙道超標而且重點是\n﹏﹏\n﹏﹏\n台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮的和平廠為例,它的代號新濃度不是你們的0.1奈克,而是減出0.215奈克。所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準的話,你們還說除了水泥液以外都要\n報告委員其實這個\n其實有兩個部分因為過去對於這個SRF的製造其實它非常的含混所以我們的預期的體檢之後會有顯著的分級如果分級之後其實它如果燒的料是正確的白料就沒有這樣的問題沒有強制力部長你莫多加糊弄我們沒有強制力的分級你國家的管制標準是產品標準你們仍然是最低標準\n你這個分級只是建議阿沒有強制力阿報告委員這個我們會用強制提升到管理的辦法來處理因為過去是指引而已那另外一個委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分其實我們未來會為什麼要排除水泥窯而現在所有的跡象和證據還有採樣的樣本都證明水泥窯不但不像葉哲說的我們不會燒出大澳新而且還燒出超標的大澳新了\n報告委員 這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為它的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是實務面就是減粗啊對 所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法你們新的辦法就是還是排除它啊你們新的修正草案第八條規定除了水泥液以外其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者準用本條文相關規定你還排除了水泥液啊\n這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。好,謝謝。那我們現在講說工業鍋爐,你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊,工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多,人口密度相當的高,所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的,就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛。\n那以前它燒這個大躍芯排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛可是現在你要混燒了工業鍋爐可以燒SRFSRF會產生大躍芯甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑\n所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度\n所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準\n可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶耗性的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量\n他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講\n因為時間有限我最後講喔\n所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了\n那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的\n他的生產量遠遠的超過,遠遠超過我們的CF75所能夠製造SRF的白油的量。所以說我們9月的時候已經有一個完整的SRF來提前報告,誰是委員要考慮我們放在哪?好,那我就再解釋。好,謝謝。但是他問題還很多,問題還很多。好。因為我們就不加強他檢測作用。對啊,因為呢?\n好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八月會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.946 --> 00:06.267\n林委員好\n\n00:24.352 --> 00:41.870\n院長午安,就是說因為勞動解放假不同步的困擾,其實對於同一機關裡面多種身份、多種制度來講,其實不只是社會很困擾,其實機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。\n\n00:42.791 --> 01:00.531\n那我今年年初啦,就是說內閣還沒有改組以前,其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假。那我們的前院長陳建仁院長他表達他說他支持。\n\n01:01.753 --> 01:18.084\n前院長陳建仁前院長表達支持所以從行政院到人事行政總務到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議明年有機會統一這個全國都統一放假\n\n01:19.967 --> 01:33.125\n老實說,大家覺得說好像釋放出一個善意了。社會也都在期待。大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及。大家想說明年有機會的話應該可以\n\n01:35.829 --> 01:40.834\n但是人事行政總署剛公布了明年的年度休假的假期表出來,那五一勞動節仍然維持原案。\n\n02:01.992 --> 02:26.507\n只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費其實是很多人都很失望這個我們在這裡要跟院長請示就是說你知道臺灣最重要民間壓力最大大概就是生產部門可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假所以像金融機關啊工業生產的各個部門啊\n\n02:27.727 --> 02:55.274\n他們都同意休假也都很多人放假尤其是金融單位都放假了那我們在這裡講說在剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外那最多人數最多就是公務機關公務員那最可憐的像最難受的像莫過於像育兒階段的老師自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩還要到學校去顧去上課然後顧大家的小孩\n\n02:56.354 --> 03:20.472\n那沒有適用勞基法的人還必須要上班然後請人去照顧自己的小孩或者是自行請假在這種狀況裡面真的是很多困擾這個院長有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年2025年這個休假期一五一勞動節全國都來放假\n\n03:22.421 --> 03:22.801\n明年?\n\n03:41.744 --> 04:04.837\n今年公布就是明年的行事曆所以明年還是維持所值的理由是什麼陳建仁前院長在這裡本來就已經大家期待說他認為是他支持的跟委員報告這個我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全的進行到最大的困擾是什麼各方面的意見都有啦\n\n04:06.932 --> 04:34.009\n這樣的放假會不會帶動其他的相關個別的身份類別的一個討論,那我們覺得這個有必要在...因為台灣800萬、1000萬的勞工都放假了,是用勞基法的。只剩下幾乎最多的就剩下公務人員。我就說我承認我們在這個尋求共識的過程當中今年還沒有這麼順利,但我們會繼續的跟大家在探索最好的模式是怎麼樣,那未來我們再從長計議。\n\n04:35.711 --> 04:55.991\n那如果是這樣的話,其實你們有,行政部門有回覆給我們啦。他講的一個是說,這個因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議啦,這個機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。那我認為這不是理由。立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼的有效力過。其實真正的原因是成本。\n\n04:57.091 --> 05:24.822\n但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了。那我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的這個問題但至少在這裡先承諾我們說你多久以內會召集這個跨部會研議因為據我們所知行政部門陳建仁院長雖然支持這樣的方向但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議啊那\n\n05:25.442 --> 05:48.778\n我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力那就大刀闊斧的就了解或請這個內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論然後行政院召集相關的單位共同協商朝全國放假一致的方向去研議可不可以報告委員這個重要的幾個部會\n\n05:49.912 --> 06:01.598\n我們雖然沒有召集會議的形式,但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的。得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致,甚至包括外界也是這個樣子。這是公務機關而已,沒有外界。經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。\n\n06:04.960 --> 06:05.580\n時間適當的時間再跟委員來報告\n\n06:34.823 --> 06:50.458\n這個是很重要的,因為事實上我們都知道現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的,其他全國都放假,可是一個機關不同調,一個社會也不同調,真的有很多很多的困擾,不然差這幾天跟公務人員亂聊天。另外我們接下來討論的是SRF的問題,我想這個\n\n06:57.978 --> 07:25.328\n院長克林,SRF大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議,但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議,我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長,我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團,要針對各場進行體檢,那就原料製造端和在使用端上都一直要體檢這樣子,要一起做。\n\n07:25.788 --> 07:46.877\n那你也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案,但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論一下更細節。第一個,使用SRF作為燃料的工廠,這五年內,過去五年,抽驗了17個工廠,一共217根的管道,其中99%檢驗出帶澳芯。\n\n07:50.758 --> 08:18.485\n兩百一十七根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根的煙道裡面代澳鋅是零其他百分之九十九都檢出代澳鋅代澳鋅的這個多或少只是這樣的差異若以現在既有的固定污染源代澳鋅的排放標準來看這兩百一十七根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5耐克\n\n08:20.265 --> 08:20.325\n﹚林淑芬﹚\n\n08:40.732 --> 08:41.332\n﹚林淑芬\n\n09:08.320 --> 09:27.846\n不要忘了工業生產的工廠其實人口活動人口密度是相當高的所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講我們的那個標準應該小於0.1奈克在這種狀況裡面你檢出大躍興就有15根的煙道超標而且重點是\n\n10:12.020 --> 10:34.499\n台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮的和平廠為例,它的代號新濃度不是你們的0.1奈克,而是減出0.215奈克。所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準的話,你們還說除了水泥液以外都要\n\n10:35.760 --> 10:36.020\n報告委員其實這個\n\n10:52.290 --> 11:16.456\n其實有兩個部分因為過去對於這個SRF的製造其實它非常的含混所以我們的預期的體檢之後會有顯著的分級如果分級之後其實它如果燒的料是正確的白料就沒有這樣的問題沒有強制力部長你莫多加糊弄我們沒有強制力的分級你國家的管制標準是產品標準你們仍然是最低標準\n\n11:17.355 --> 11:43.150\n你這個分級只是建議阿沒有強制力阿報告委員這個我們會用強制提升到管理的辦法來處理因為過去是指引而已那另外一個委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分其實我們未來會為什麼要排除水泥窯而現在所有的跡象和證據還有採樣的樣本都證明水泥窯不但不像葉哲說的我們不會燒出大澳新而且還燒出超標的大澳新了\n\n11:43.670 --> 12:11.961\n報告委員這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為它的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是實務面就是減粗啊對所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法你們新的辦法就是還是排除它啊你們新的修正草案第八條規定除了水泥液以外其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者準用本條文相關規定你還排除了水泥液啊\n\n12:12.641 --> 12:35.715\n這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。好,謝謝。那我們現在講說工業鍋爐,你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊,工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多,人口密度相當的高,所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的,就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛。\n\n12:36.195 --> 12:56.209\n那以前它燒這個大躍芯排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛可是現在你要混燒了工業鍋爐可以燒SRFSRF會產生大躍芯甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑\n\n12:59.691 --> 13:12.118\n所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度\n\n13:16.681 --> 13:37.017\n所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準\n\n13:37.898 --> 13:58.863\n可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶耗性的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量\n\n14:01.184 --> 14:26.502\n他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講\n\n14:28.203 --> 14:29.164\n因為時間有限我最後講喔\n\n14:47.583 --> 15:14.421\n所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了\n\n15:14.881 --> 15:25.205\n那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的\n\n15:33.069 --> 15:57.747\n他的生產量遠遠的超過,遠遠超過我們的CF75所能夠製造SRF的白油的量。所以說我們9月的時候已經有一個完整的SRF來提前報告,誰是委員要考慮我們放在哪?好,那我就再解釋。好,謝謝。但是他問題還很多,問題還很多。好。因為我們就不加強他檢測作用。對啊,因為呢?\n\n16:01.830 --> 16:08.902\n好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八月會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.946,"end":6.267,"text":"林委員好"},{"start":24.352,"end":41.87,"text":"院長午安,就是說因為勞動解放假不同步的困擾,其實對於同一機關裡面多種身份、多種制度來講,其實不只是社會很困擾,其實機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。"},{"start":42.791,"end":60.531,"text":"那我今年年初啦,就是說內閣還沒有改組以前,其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假。那我們的前院長陳建仁院長他表達他說他支持。"},{"start":61.753,"end":78.084,"text":"前院長陳建仁前院長表達支持所以從行政院到人事行政總務到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議明年有機會統一這個全國都統一放假"},{"start":79.967,"end":93.125,"text":"老實說,大家覺得說好像釋放出一個善意了。社會也都在期待。大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及。大家想說明年有機會的話應該可以"},{"start":95.829,"end":100.834,"text":"但是人事行政總署剛公布了明年的年度休假的假期表出來,那五一勞動節仍然維持原案。"},{"start":121.992,"end":146.507,"text":"只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費其實是很多人都很失望這個我們在這裡要跟院長請示就是說你知道臺灣最重要民間壓力最大大概就是生產部門可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假所以像金融機關啊工業生產的各個部門啊"},{"start":147.727,"end":175.274,"text":"他們都同意休假也都很多人放假尤其是金融單位都放假了那我們在這裡講說在剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外那最多人數最多就是公務機關公務員那最可憐的像最難受的像莫過於像育兒階段的老師自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩還要到學校去顧去上課然後顧大家的小孩"},{"start":176.354,"end":200.472,"text":"那沒有適用勞基法的人還必須要上班然後請人去照顧自己的小孩或者是自行請假在這種狀況裡面真的是很多困擾這個院長有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年2025年這個休假期一五一勞動節全國都來放假"},{"start":202.421,"end":202.801,"text":"明年?"},{"start":221.744,"end":244.837,"text":"今年公布就是明年的行事曆所以明年還是維持所值的理由是什麼陳建仁前院長在這裡本來就已經大家期待說他認為是他支持的跟委員報告這個我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全的進行到最大的困擾是什麼各方面的意見都有啦"},{"start":246.932,"end":274.009,"text":"這樣的放假會不會帶動其他的相關個別的身份類別的一個討論,那我們覺得這個有必要在...因為台灣800萬、1000萬的勞工都放假了,是用勞基法的。只剩下幾乎最多的就剩下公務人員。我就說我承認我們在這個尋求共識的過程當中今年還沒有這麼順利,但我們會繼續的跟大家在探索最好的模式是怎麼樣,那未來我們再從長計議。"},{"start":275.711,"end":295.991,"text":"那如果是這樣的話,其實你們有,行政部門有回覆給我們啦。他講的一個是說,這個因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議啦,這個機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。那我認為這不是理由。立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼的有效力過。其實真正的原因是成本。"},{"start":297.091,"end":324.822,"text":"但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了。那我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的這個問題但至少在這裡先承諾我們說你多久以內會召集這個跨部會研議因為據我們所知行政部門陳建仁院長雖然支持這樣的方向但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議啊那"},{"start":325.442,"end":348.778,"text":"我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力那就大刀闊斧的就了解或請這個內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論然後行政院召集相關的單位共同協商朝全國放假一致的方向去研議可不可以報告委員這個重要的幾個部會"},{"start":349.912,"end":361.598,"text":"我們雖然沒有召集會議的形式,但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的。得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致,甚至包括外界也是這個樣子。這是公務機關而已,沒有外界。經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。"},{"start":364.96,"end":365.58,"text":"時間適當的時間再跟委員來報告"},{"start":394.823,"end":410.458,"text":"這個是很重要的,因為事實上我們都知道現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的,其他全國都放假,可是一個機關不同調,一個社會也不同調,真的有很多很多的困擾,不然差這幾天跟公務人員亂聊天。另外我們接下來討論的是SRF的問題,我想這個"},{"start":417.978,"end":445.328,"text":"院長克林,SRF大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議,但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議,我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長,我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團,要針對各場進行體檢,那就原料製造端和在使用端上都一直要體檢這樣子,要一起做。"},{"start":445.788,"end":466.877,"text":"那你也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案,但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論一下更細節。第一個,使用SRF作為燃料的工廠,這五年內,過去五年,抽驗了17個工廠,一共217根的管道,其中99%檢驗出帶澳芯。"},{"start":470.758,"end":498.485,"text":"兩百一十七根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根的煙道裡面代澳鋅是零其他百分之九十九都檢出代澳鋅代澳鋅的這個多或少只是這樣的差異若以現在既有的固定污染源代澳鋅的排放標準來看這兩百一十七根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5耐克"},{"start":500.265,"end":500.325,"text":"﹚林淑芬﹚"},{"start":520.732,"end":521.332,"text":"﹚林淑芬"},{"start":548.32,"end":567.846,"text":"不要忘了工業生產的工廠其實人口活動人口密度是相當高的所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講我們的那個標準應該小於0.1奈克在這種狀況裡面你檢出大躍興就有15根的煙道超標而且重點是"},{"start":568.746,"end":587.534,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":587.534,"end":611.92,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":612.02,"end":634.499,"text":"台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮的和平廠為例,它的代號新濃度不是你們的0.1奈克,而是減出0.215奈克。所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準的話,你們還說除了水泥液以外都要"},{"start":635.76,"end":636.02,"text":"報告委員其實這個"},{"start":652.29,"end":676.456,"text":"其實有兩個部分因為過去對於這個SRF的製造其實它非常的含混所以我們的預期的體檢之後會有顯著的分級如果分級之後其實它如果燒的料是正確的白料就沒有這樣的問題沒有強制力部長你莫多加糊弄我們沒有強制力的分級你國家的管制標準是產品標準你們仍然是最低標準"},{"start":677.355,"end":703.15,"text":"你這個分級只是建議阿沒有強制力阿報告委員這個我們會用強制提升到管理的辦法來處理因為過去是指引而已那另外一個委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分其實我們未來會為什麼要排除水泥窯而現在所有的跡象和證據還有採樣的樣本都證明水泥窯不但不像葉哲說的我們不會燒出大澳新而且還燒出超標的大澳新了"},{"start":703.67,"end":731.961,"text":"報告委員 這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為它的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是實務面就是減粗啊對 所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法你們新的辦法就是還是排除它啊你們新的修正草案第八條規定除了水泥液以外其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者準用本條文相關規定你還排除了水泥液啊"},{"start":732.641,"end":755.715,"text":"這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。好,謝謝。那我們現在講說工業鍋爐,你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊,工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多,人口密度相當的高,所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的,就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛。"},{"start":756.195,"end":776.209,"text":"那以前它燒這個大躍芯排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛可是現在你要混燒了工業鍋爐可以燒SRFSRF會產生大躍芯甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑"},{"start":779.691,"end":792.118,"text":"所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度"},{"start":796.681,"end":817.017,"text":"所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準"},{"start":817.898,"end":838.863,"text":"可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶耗性的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量"},{"start":841.184,"end":866.502,"text":"他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講"},{"start":868.203,"end":869.164,"text":"因為時間有限我最後講喔"},{"start":887.583,"end":914.421,"text":"所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了"},{"start":914.881,"end":925.205,"text":"那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的"},{"start":933.069,"end":957.747,"text":"他的生產量遠遠的超過,遠遠超過我們的CF75所能夠製造SRF的白油的量。所以說我們9月的時候已經有一個完整的SRF來提前報告,誰是委員要考慮我們放在哪?好,那我就再解釋。好,謝謝。但是他問題還很多,問題還很多。好。因為我們就不加強他檢測作用。對啊,因為呢?"},{"start":961.83,"end":968.902,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八月會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"}]}}}}