{"id":154599,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f869c4314b915e8beaca0ece664f026f7b7ec06bbf1d30435c9e84ac0ab64cdd6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:37:49 - 09:49:31","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:37:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:49:31+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時37分）好，謝謝主席，是不是請核安會主委、台電的曾文生董事長，還有經濟部連次長？請三位。"],["主席：請三位官員備質詢。謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：好，非常謝謝三位。核能問題大家非常關心，雖然經濟部才是真正的能源主管機關，但是有關核電延役的問題卻落在核安會這個三級單位。大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球，經濟部說能源規劃是國發會；國發會說不是，他們只是幕僚；同樣的，面對核安問題，核安會說他們只是負責核安問題，所以核能變成三不管地帶。我們今天就把事情說清楚，倘若今天修法通過的話，請問次長，誰可以提出延役計畫的申請？"],["連次長錦漳：照法令要由台電提出……"],["柯委員志恩：要台電提出申請，所以台電如果不提出申請計畫，即使這一部法通過還是被動地躺在那邊，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：一定要在整個法令……"],["柯委員志恩：對，我現在只問，我們今天討論老半天，每個人都想要來抗爭，昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭，一直討論這個法。這部法如果今天修過，台電卻不送出延役計畫的話，是不是被動地躺在那邊而已，是不是？只要回答是或不是。"],["連次長錦漳：不是……"],["柯委員志恩：是嘛！好，我們請台電董事長。"],["連次長錦漳：我講不是。"],["柯委員志恩：好，經濟部長說2030年前臺灣絕對不缺電，意思是說，這部法即使通過，2030年前不缺電的狀況下，台電應該不會提出延役的申請吧？"],["曾董事長文生：台電要做任何延役的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查。"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道，每個人都是。"],["曾董事長文生：你現在提的意見是說意願上，但我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做。"],["柯委員志恩：所以如果你們可以打包票說2030年前不會缺電，當然延役就不是問題，你們也就不會提出所謂的延役申請計畫嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，現在的狀況是法修完後到底是什麼樣的狀況……"],["柯委員志恩：法修完就是把年限撤除，讓你更有彈性空間。"],["曾董事長文生：台電自己的安全評估狀況是如何，這些都要有一些根據……"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒問題，曾董事長，我等一下告訴你，台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣！我想很清楚，到目前為止，大家都鎖定在李遠哲及童子賢的發言，當然，郭智輝部長也是喔，我想請次長也來解讀一下。童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯，所以目前為止他還是停留在認為核能還是一個解方。而郭部長說只要修法通過，核二、核三延役2、30年不是問題，核電不是基載電力，但也是備援電力；吃了一頓飯之後，他馬上說沒有考慮過備載的部分，結果最近他接受訪問，又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長，你跟他比較接近，可不可以瞭解哪一個才是真正經濟部長的說法？到底目前你們的態度怎麼樣？到底是廢核，還是續核？能源到底誰說了算？"],["連次長錦漳：針對民間人士，我們不去做評論。"],["柯委員志恩：民間的人士？你指的是童子賢叫民間人士，你不評論，好，那經濟部長你評論一下。"],["連次長錦漳：我們部長的意思是說，在多元的電力供應下，我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的規劃準備。"],["柯委員志恩：你這有講跟沒有講一樣，我們還是聽不懂到底經濟部長要幹嘛？到目前為止，也沒有人知道他到底每一天……只要是一頓飯局或出國一次，回來之後，每個說法都不一致。我現在只問一個非常客觀的問題，核一廠除役從申請到許可，大概花4年時間，核二呢？大家念茲在茲，已經進入除役狀況，但各位看到沒有，從2018年提出除役報告之後，6年了，還沒有進入除役。上次我質詢陳東陽主委時，主委告訴我說因為有廠界爭議問題，所以管制範圍延伸到海邊，還有一些相關土地問題，所以到目前為止，什麼時候可以解決也不知道。至於核三的除役，2021年提出除役報告，現在還卡在經濟部，還沒有辦所謂的公聽會，連環境部許可的環評報告也沒有拿到，說實在的，根據經濟部、台電有關核一廠除役的審議時程，到底要多久你們才有辦法進入審議階段？我只請問一個問題，核三廠在2025年5月底前，有沒有辦法拿到除役許可？有沒有辦法？這是很正確的問題啊！時程就擺在這個地方啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，包括你提到的延役一樣，它都有安全申請，所以有很多行政程序的審查，還有安全的審查、環評的審查，這個都不是我們事業單位能夠決定要多久的時間……"],["柯委員志恩：那誰應該負責？台電認為應該誰來負責會比較有一個更主導性的規劃？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我還是要說一下，我們現在有一些相關議題，就是有這些審查，譬如像環境影響評估，我們也不只是這些除役的問題要審查很久，有一大堆案子我們都審查非常久……"],["柯委員志恩：是，所以我就告訴你，你一方面宣稱非核家園是不可放棄的目標，可是真的核電廠要除役的時候，我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉，你看核一就要6、7年，核二、核三的除役計畫難道也是這樣子嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：委員我們講一下……"],["柯委員志恩：是，你們請說。"],["曾董事長文生：你提到核二，核二的狀況是這樣子，它環評通過了，現在只是在修正邊界，但真正要能夠進到除役，要乾貯能夠實施，而乾貯的這一件事情，我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果，希望趕快送審，也能夠讓核二的除役順利進行……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你預估……"],["曾董事長文生：如果核一除役的乾貯工作能夠順利進行……"],["柯委員志恩：其實你們告訴大家什麼時候……"],["曾董事長文生：這個審查過程就超過10年了。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，你們告訴大家要除役的時候，就應該提出時程，所以我剛剛特別提到，核三廠在2025年5月前有沒有辦法順利除役？我只問這個問題。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，它就停機了，然後接下來就會進入除役狀態，只要環評跟核安審查通過，就會進入除役狀態。"],["柯委員志恩：是，誠如我剛剛講的那個部分，2018年到現在為止，都還是一個問號，所以到底什麼時間點，我們目前都還是不知道。","好，那我現在請問連次長，非核家園的推動，上一次我們詢問第六次，也就是最近一次非核家園小組開會時間是在3年前的2021年，當時本來應該要討論有關中期暫貯存場址，你們講東講西，然後我上次問了陳東陽主委，主委很坦白的說從2023年之後就沒有再開會了，然後希望趕快召開第七次會議，討論低階核廢料解方問題。但是被這個小組打了回票，不開就是不開。我想請問台電，中期暫貯存場的地理條件，所謂的選址原則，到底是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板？請問什麼時候可以討論這個問題？我今天從頭到尾的質詢，你都告訴我安全很重要，我也知道安全很重要，可是很多進程就還卡在那個地方。你看，我們就講個最現實的，第七次會議有關中期暫貯存場的問題，什麼時候可以解決？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫貯存……"],["柯委員志恩：你不用解釋，你只要告訴我第七次會議什麼時候要召開？大家都想要開會，2023年開完之後就沒有再召開會議，我上次已經提醒過了，你們還是沒有很積極處理，所以我只問，什麼時候開這個會議？次長還是這個會議的副召集人喔！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這個不是非核家園小組開會就可以決定的，因為重點是這樣，它會回到跟現在低階核廢料處理的問題一樣，有地方公投等等相關問題，所以經濟部今天在報告中也特別提到，核電的使用要有始有終，如果頭開了，尾巴就要能夠解決，同時要能夠一起解決，才有辦法讓我們真正成為永續……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是嘛！大家都瞭解，問題是你們開了老半天的進程，連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議紀錄，還有一些相關進度都沒有，到目前為止，問你們結果，都還是跟我扯一些什麼安全問題、核廢料問題等等，這些問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還一樣嗎？我剛才已經開宗明義講了，今天這樣一個討論只是提供大家更多延役空間的平臺，但如果台電不主動申請、不主動送出計畫，這個法案即使今天通過了，還是會躺在那邊，因為主動權還是在經濟部，還是在經濟部責成的台電，不是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，你現在提這個法令，其實它就有它的價值意涵存在，而不是說它是一個被動的……"],["柯委員志恩：好，所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這樣一個提供你們更彈性空間的修法？你贊不贊成？你個人贊不贊成？"],["曾董事長文生：我應該要跟委員報告，這件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。"],["柯委員志恩：對。"],["曾董事長文生：好，但這個限制拿掉，要做各種的評估……"],["柯委員志恩：一定的啊！"],["曾董事長文生：可以做的評估，我們當然要做，因為所有的安全就是都要做，還有包括可不可以使用……"],["柯委員志恩：董事長，我打岔一下，這個年限……"],["曾董事長文生：但是委員，我還是要跟你報告，你說這是被動的事情，坦白講，它就是一個清楚的價值指向……"],["柯委員志恩：價值指向……"],["曾董事長文生：所以它怎麼會只是一個被動的事情。"],["柯委員志恩：那你認不認可這個價值？請問你，認不認可這個價值？誠如你剛剛提到的，即使這個法通過，包括核安，包括台電，還是要經過一連串的安全檢視，這個安全檢視可能要花費3年、7年到10年時間，對不對？這都還是需要，同島一命啊！我只能說這個法、延役的法通過，只是提供你們更有彈性的空間，反而讓你們有一個解套的部分……"],["曾董事長文生：我完全同意，就是國家命運是一體的，這件事情完全同意……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是嘛！所以安全問題我們當然也會考慮。"],["曾董事長文生：它是有評估的空間，這個是確定……"],["柯委員志恩：好，那你就直接講嘛，這個法，我們認為是在幫你們做更彈性的解套空間，你贊不贊同？你贊不贊同？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我這樣說啦，你現在一直講說這是我們的事情，法修正完以後，就是我們的事情，但我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向存在了，我怎麼可能是這樣切割？我真的是完全不瞭解……"],["柯委員志恩：我沒有給你切割啊！我們在這個法裡面，其實是……"],["曾董事長文生：因為所有的立法說明裡面提到的都不是這個意思……"],["柯委員志恩：切到核安，包括經濟部，包括台電，我們等一下在討論法時，再好好來修正……"],["曾董事長文生：我們真的是……"],["柯委員志恩：董事長，我完全不認為這是一個切割，誠如我剛剛所提到的，每次問到這個問題，經濟部都沒有辦法回應，然後就告訴我是國發會；國發會說它是幕僚單位，這是核安問題；核安會又告訴我說它只是負責安全的問題，所以我們只能透過這樣的討論，請你告訴我們整體的規劃。董事長，我完全瞭解，等一下討論這個法的時候，我們就一一來討論，它不是價值取向，我告訴你，它是一個非常大的問題，我也不會完全只是把它推到你們台電身上，這當然不是台電可以處理的，但你總要告訴我，政府的政策方向到底在哪裡，你們的價值有沒有跟過去是一致的？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：請林委員宜瑾發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:18,413\n對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天,每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。\n\n6\n00:01:33,942 --> 00:01:36,823\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案\n\n7\n00:01:53,818 --> 00:02:10,082\n根委員報告台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是啊你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎\n\n8\n00:02:17,004 --> 00:02:32,494\n根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你沒有更彈性的空間台電自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這些東西都要有一些根據\n\n9\n00:02:33,354 --> 00:02:36,496\n好來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方\n\n10\n00:02:57,050 --> 00:03:06,313\n國部長說只要修法通過核二核三研議二三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?\n\n11\n00:03:25,334 --> 00:03:30,036\n針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備\n\n12\n00:03:41,639 --> 00:03:53,122\n你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念茲在茲已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有\n\n13\n00:04:03,404 --> 00:04:03,684\n案案案案\n\n14\n00:04:33,724 --> 00:04:36,808\n事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案\n\n15\n00:04:52,745 --> 00:05:07,995\n那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃\n\n16\n00:05:14,078 --> 00:05:31,326\n我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看\n\n17\n00:05:34,927 --> 00:05:43,092\n合約要六、七年,那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了,難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下您提到的合二,合二的狀況是這個樣子,它寬頻通過現在只是在修正邊界,但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施。那甘廚的這件事情,我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來,我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行。\n\n18\n00:06:04,444 --> 00:06:07,226\n核一的廚藝干除的工作順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,他就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。\n\n19\n00:06:29,522 --> 00:06:49,917\n是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請那個,問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。\n\n20\n00:06:51,818 --> 00:06:59,243\n三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電\n\n21\n00:07:18,114 --> 00:07:37,831\n《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決\n\n22\n00:07:42,595 --> 00:07:48,521\n我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人\n\n23\n00:08:01,573 --> 00:08:21,515\n這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決\n\n24\n00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:33,580\n這才有辦法讓我當然是嘛大家都了解問題是你們開了老半天的進程連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議的季度還有一些相關的進度目前為止問到你們的結果都還是在跟我扯一些安全問題核廢的問題這問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還是一樣嗎我只能說今天這樣子一個討論我剛已經開出名義講了只是提供給大家更\n\n25\n00:08:47,165 --> 00:08:47,365\n條文修正草\n\n26\n00:09:05,270 --> 00:09:23,551\n跟委員報告,您現在提這個法令其實它就有它的價值意涵存在,而不是說它就是一個內動的法令。好,所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這個提供你們更彈性的一個修法的空間,你贊不贊成,你個人贊不贊成?我應該要跟委員報告,這一件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。對。\n\n27\n00:09:24,872 --> 00:09:25,032\n條文宣告\n\n28\n00:09:42,964 --> 00:09:47,565\n那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。\n\n29\n00:10:11,152 --> 00:10:11,352\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n\n30\n00:10:28,479 --> 00:10:47,453\n那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電\n\n31\n00:10:50,295 --> 00:10:56,876\n我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發,國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題,核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們,整體的規劃我完全了解。\n\n32\n00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:17,100\n案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3748\t14596\t謝謝主席,我們是不是請河安會的陳主委還有我們台電的我們的曾文森董事長還有包括我們的經濟部的次長、連次長三位請三位官員被質詢,謝謝\n18203\t26749\t好,非常謝謝三位,我想核能問題大家都非常的關心,雖然經濟部才是真正能源的主管機關,但是有關核電的這個延期的問題卻落在這個所謂的核安會這個三級單位當中,然後大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球。\n37017\t37517\t三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具\n58889\t61712\t法定是要由台電這邊要提出要台電提出申請所以說呢台電如果不提出申請的計畫即使這一步法通過還是被動的躺在那邊可以就對不對\n72551\t78413\t對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天,每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。\n93942\t96823\t三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案\n113818\t130082\t根委員報告台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是啊你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎\n137004\t152494\t根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你沒有更彈性的空間台電自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這些東西都要有一些根據\n153354\t156496\t好來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方\n177050\t186313\t國部長說只要修法通過核二核三研議二三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?\n205334\t210036\t針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備\n221639\t233122\t你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念茲在茲已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有\n243404\t243684\t案案案案\n273724\t276808\t事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案\n292745\t307995\t那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃\n314078\t331326\t我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看\n334927\t343092\t合約要六、七年,那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了,難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下您提到的合二,合二的狀況是這個樣子,它寬頻通過現在只是在修正邊界,但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施。那甘廚的這件事情,我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來,我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行。\n364444\t367226\t核一的廚藝干除的工作順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,他就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。\n389522\t409917\t是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請那個,問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。\n411818\t419243\t三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電\n438114\t457831\t《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決\n462595\t468521\t我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人\n481573\t501515\t這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決\n502276\t513580\t這才有辦法讓我當然是嘛大家都了解問題是你們開了老半天的進程連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議的季度還有一些相關的進度目前為止問到你們的結果都還是在跟我扯一些安全問題核廢的問題這問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還是一樣嗎我只能說今天這樣子一個討論我剛已經開出名義講了只是提供給大家更\n527165\t527365\t條文修正草\n545270\t563551\t跟委員報告,您現在提這個法令其實它就有它的價值意涵存在,而不是說它就是一個內動的法令。好,所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這個提供你們更彈性的一個修法的空間,你贊不贊成,你個人贊不贊成?我應該要跟委員報告,這一件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。對。\n564872\t565032\t條文宣告\n582964\t587565\t那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。\n611152\t611352\t三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n628479\t647453\t那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電\n650295\t656876\t我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發,國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題,核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們,整體的規劃我完全了解。\n677080\t677100\t案。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請河安會的陳主委還有我們台電的我們的曾文森董事長還有包括我們的經濟部的次長、連次長三位請三位官員被質詢,謝謝\n好,非常謝謝三位,我想核能問題大家都非常的關心,雖然經濟部才是真正能源的主管機關,但是有關核電的這個延期的問題卻落在這個所謂的核安會這個三級單位當中,然後大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具\n法定是要由台電這邊要提出要台電提出申請所以說呢台電如果不提出申請的計畫即使這一步法通過還是被動的躺在那邊可以就對不對\n對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天,每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案\n根委員報告台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是啊你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎\n根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你沒有更彈性的空間台電自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這些東西都要有一些根據\n好來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方\n國部長說只要修法通過核二核三研議二三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?\n針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備\n你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念茲在茲已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有\n案案案案\n事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案\n那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃\n我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看\n合約要六、七年,那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了,難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下您提到的合二,合二的狀況是這個樣子,它寬頻通過現在只是在修正邊界,但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施。那甘廚的這件事情,我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來,我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行。\n核一的廚藝干除的工作順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,他就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。\n是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請那個,問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。\n三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電\n《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決\n我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人\n這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決\n這才有辦法讓我當然是嘛大家都了解問題是你們開了老半天的進程連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議的季度還有一些相關的進度目前為止問到你們的結果都還是在跟我扯一些安全問題核廢的問題這問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還是一樣嗎我只能說今天這樣子一個討論我剛已經開出名義講了只是提供給大家更\n條文修正草\n跟委員報告,您現在提這個法令其實它就有它的價值意涵存在,而不是說它就是一個內動的法令。好,所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這個提供你們更彈性的一個修法的空間,你贊不贊成,你個人贊不贊成?我應該要跟委員報告,這一件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。對。\n條文宣告\n那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電\n我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發,國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題,核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們,整體的規劃我完全了解。\n案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.748 --> 00:14.596\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請河安會的陳主委還有我們台電的我們的曾文森董事長還有包括我們的經濟部的次長、連次長三位請三位官員被質詢,謝謝\n\n00:18.203 --> 00:26.749\n好,非常謝謝三位,我想核能問題大家都非常的關心,雖然經濟部才是真正能源的主管機關,但是有關核電的這個延期的問題卻落在這個所謂的核安會這個三級單位當中,然後大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球。\n\n00:37.017 --> 00:37.517\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具\n\n00:58.889 --> 01:01.712\n法定是要由台電這邊要提出要台電提出申請所以說呢台電如果不提出申請的計畫即使這一步法通過還是被動的躺在那邊可以就對不對\n\n01:12.551 --> 01:18.413\n對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天,每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。\n\n01:33.942 --> 01:36.823\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案\n\n01:53.818 --> 02:10.082\n根委員報告台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是啊你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎\n\n02:17.004 --> 02:32.494\n根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你沒有更彈性的空間台電自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這些東西都要有一些根據\n\n02:33.354 --> 02:36.496\n好來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方\n\n02:57.050 --> 03:06.313\n國部長說只要修法通過核二核三研議二三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?\n\n03:25.334 --> 03:30.036\n針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備\n\n03:41.639 --> 03:53.122\n你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念茲在茲已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有\n\n04:03.404 --> 04:03.684\n案案案案\n\n04:33.724 --> 04:36.808\n事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案\n\n04:52.745 --> 05:07.995\n那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃\n\n05:14.078 --> 05:31.326\n我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看\n\n05:34.927 --> 05:43.092\n合約要六、七年,那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了,難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下您提到的合二,合二的狀況是這個樣子,它寬頻通過現在只是在修正邊界,但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施。那甘廚的這件事情,我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來,我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行。\n\n06:04.444 --> 06:07.226\n核一的廚藝干除的工作順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,他就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。\n\n06:29.522 --> 06:49.917\n是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請那個,問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。\n\n06:51.818 --> 06:59.243\n三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電\n\n07:18.114 --> 07:37.831\n《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決\n\n07:42.595 --> 07:48.521\n我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人\n\n08:01.573 --> 08:21.515\n這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決\n\n08:22.276 --> 08:33.580\n這才有辦法讓我當然是嘛大家都了解問題是你們開了老半天的進程連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議的季度還有一些相關的進度目前為止問到你們的結果都還是在跟我扯一些安全問題核廢的問題這問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還是一樣嗎我只能說今天這樣子一個討論我剛已經開出名義講了只是提供給大家更\n\n08:47.165 --> 08:47.365\n條文修正草\n\n09:05.270 --> 09:23.551\n跟委員報告,您現在提這個法令其實它就有它的價值意涵存在,而不是說它就是一個內動的法令。好,所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這個提供你們更彈性的一個修法的空間,你贊不贊成,你個人贊不贊成?我應該要跟委員報告,這一件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。對。\n\n09:24.872 --> 09:25.032\n條文宣告\n\n09:42.964 --> 09:47.565\n那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。\n\n10:11.152 --> 10:11.352\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n\n10:28.479 --> 10:47.453\n那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電\n\n10:50.295 --> 10:56.876\n我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發,國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題,核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們,整體的規劃我完全了解。\n\n11:17.080 --> 11:17.100\n案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.748,"end":14.596,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請河安會的陳主委還有我們台電的我們的曾文森董事長還有包括我們的經濟部的次長、連次長三位請三位官員被質詢,謝謝"},{"start":18.203,"end":26.749,"text":"好,非常謝謝三位,我想核能問題大家都非常的關心,雖然經濟部才是真正能源的主管機關,但是有關核電的這個延期的問題卻落在這個所謂的核安會這個三級單位當中,然後大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球。"},{"start":37.017,"end":37.517,"text":"三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具"},{"start":58.889,"end":61.712,"text":"法定是要由台電這邊要提出要台電提出申請所以說呢台電如果不提出申請的計畫即使這一步法通過還是被動的躺在那邊可以就對不對"},{"start":72.551,"end":78.413,"text":"對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天,每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。"},{"start":93.942,"end":96.823,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":113.818,"end":130.082,"text":"根委員報告台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是啊你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎"},{"start":137.004,"end":152.494,"text":"根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你沒有更彈性的空間台電自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這些東西都要有一些根據"},{"start":153.354,"end":156.496,"text":"好來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方"},{"start":177.05,"end":186.313,"text":"國部長說只要修法通過核二核三研議二三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?"},{"start":205.334,"end":210.036,"text":"針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備"},{"start":221.639,"end":233.122,"text":"你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念茲在茲已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有"},{"start":243.404,"end":243.684,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":273.724,"end":276.808,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":292.745,"end":307.995,"text":"那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃"},{"start":314.078,"end":331.326,"text":"我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看"},{"start":334.927,"end":343.092,"text":"合約要六、七年,那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了,難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下您提到的合二,合二的狀況是這個樣子,它寬頻通過現在只是在修正邊界,但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施。那甘廚的這件事情,我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來,我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行。"},{"start":364.444,"end":367.226,"text":"核一的廚藝干除的工作順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,他就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。"},{"start":389.522,"end":409.917,"text":"是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請那個,問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。"},{"start":411.818,"end":419.243,"text":"三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電"},{"start":438.114,"end":457.831,"text":"《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決"},{"start":462.595,"end":468.521,"text":"我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人"},{"start":481.573,"end":501.515,"text":"這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決"},{"start":502.276,"end":513.58,"text":"這才有辦法讓我當然是嘛大家都了解問題是你們開了老半天的進程連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議的季度還有一些相關的進度目前為止問到你們的結果都還是在跟我扯一些安全問題核廢的問題這問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還是一樣嗎我只能說今天這樣子一個討論我剛已經開出名義講了只是提供給大家更"},{"start":527.165,"end":527.365,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":545.27,"end":563.551,"text":"跟委員報告,您現在提這個法令其實它就有它的價值意涵存在,而不是說它就是一個內動的法令。好,所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這個提供你們更彈性的一個修法的空間,你贊不贊成,你個人贊不贊成?我應該要跟委員報告,這一件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。對。"},{"start":564.872,"end":565.032,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":582.964,"end":587.565,"text":"那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。"},{"start":611.152,"end":611.352,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":628.479,"end":647.453,"text":"那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電"},{"start":650.295,"end":656.876,"text":"我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發,國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題,核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們,整體的規劃我完全了解。"},{"start":677.08,"end":677.1,"text":"案。"}]}}}}