{"id":154605,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f880ea7f93910ab462ca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fc73ed662baa63b46f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:58:06 - 10:11:30","影片長度":"00:13:24","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:58:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:11:30+08:00","duration":804,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時58分）謝謝主席，有請核安會主委、經濟部次長、國發會簡任技正以及台電董事長備詢。"],["主席：請這四個單位，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：今天國民黨召委排審核子反應器設置管制法可以說是用心良苦，希望所有的人及在座各位官員都能夠體會。","首先請教主委，我們看今天核安會的報告，似乎是採取敬表尊重並不反對的態度。主委，我們是不是可以就此定錨？敬表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠延役的立場是嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：報告裡面只有「敬表尊重」。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在反對嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就是尊重。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，現在還是在反對與不反對之間嘛！我們之前已經提過薛丁格狀態，沒有關係，如果7月27號停機，我們的電力減少了，如果真的再發生大跳電，在座的四位有沒有人要負責下臺？有沒有人願意負責下臺？"],["連次長錦漳：我要看……"],["葛委員如鈞：你要下臺嗎？次長。"],["連次長錦漳：不是，我是說誰該負的責任就應該……"],["葛委員如鈞：誰該負？總不可能沒有人該負責任吧！沒有關係，我已經預期到你們的反應了，董事長，您可以請回，其實您有可能要負責任，但既然你沒有要負責任，你就先回去吧，謝謝！","核安會昨天上午10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告，下午5點又送了一份修正報告，不比對還好，一比對才發現越寫越倒退，把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若國家能源政策確定核電延役等等這一類立場比較傾向延役的句子都刪除就算了，最後還把延役需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成，依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年，甚至到剛剛說法又變了，次長，你剛剛是不是又說要改成5到10年啊？我們這個時間可以這樣子亂跳嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：報告委員，剛才講的是檢查要5年，但是如果要再重置的話，有一些興建期或有一些要處理的問題，等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。"],["葛委員如鈞：我替你解釋啦，你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦！他可能還想要續任嘛，算一算8年，到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦，是這樣嗎？是用這種數學在算的嗎？我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎？","所以我們來看一些事實、看一些科學，好不好？在近年的國際局勢影響之下，我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列，日本九州電力公司川內核電廠1號機7月3號屆滿40年運轉期，直接從7月4號正式展開延役；日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前公告了，從40年的年限延長到加20年，直接延役！請問為什麼日本可以做，我們不能做？可不可以回答？有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的？為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查，為什麼他們不用？可不可以說明啊？我們用的核電不一樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：報告委員，這個案子我們會來研究一下，但是我跟委員報告，我們原來的執照是給定40年，依照法定的程序，停機之後如果要延役，我們必須做安全檢查，然後才可以……"],["葛委員如鈞：那為什麼他們不用檢查？他們罔顧人民性命嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我要瞭解一下。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，你今天才開始瞭解，什麼時候瞭解完？今天之前都不用瞭解嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我沒有注意到這個新聞……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有注意，謝謝，這是我們協作的部分。","那我再給你一個新聞，老實說，你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞！沒關係，我們就事論事，義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計畫案，預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能，象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。這個新聞有沒有注意到？有嘛，為什麼人家可以就這樣走了？為什麼我們都可以逆向而行？臺灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎？你說我們的環境不同，我們跟日本環境很像啊！","我們今天在這裡其實就是希望，我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心，但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心，這完全兜不起來！科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定，但我們看到的是什麼？各種踢皮球的狀態，然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱，一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐、修正再修正的郭部長；另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人，大家一搭一唱，忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲，一直說不是不愛、只是迫於無奈啊！520到現在，兩手策略讓民眾看的一頭霧水，現在我們在討論核電廠延役的時候，還是說得不清不楚，說國外的狀況沒有研究。","今天我們5個草案其實方向都是一致的，我們溫情喊話聲聲催，行政院充耳不聞，院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌，說是心裡的理念，到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出，甚至沒有建議版的文字。想請問核安會主委，您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我覺得行政院長已經說明，我們政府不會主動提出修法。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是您敬表尊重嘛，對不對？這4個字對吧？經濟部次長，您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們還是敬表尊重。"],["葛委員如鈞：您敬表尊重算是有修改立場，也是不錯啦，至少尊重，但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重，態度還有很多鬆動。請問國發會的鄭簡技，您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎？"],["鄭簡任技正永銘：……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們的神主牌換名字了，敬表尊重變成新的神主牌，那我們的非核家園神主牌算破除了嗎？沒關係，大家問到重點的時候就會停住，希望我們的電力不要這樣。","我想這個真的是很重要的問題，我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應器設施管制法的立法討論，當時負責說明法案的並不是經建會，而是核安會前身的原能會，那現在呢？有很多人又突然講，相關內容是國發會的責任，踢皮球踢來踢去，踢到國發會的門口了，國發會就簡技出來反應。我們體育也能踢球、文化也能踢球，我們現在經濟的核心──電力也在踢球，到底有什麼東西不是踢球的？會不會到最後又踢了一顆球，直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦，到最後假設我們的草案通過，我看你們這個球又要踢到氣候變遷委員會，是不是？到時候會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會？我看我今天就是神預言了啦！如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場，講來講去就是敬表尊重，我覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任！","我想請教，剛剛也已經有非常多人詢問，這些準備你們到底有沒有做計算、到底要多少費用及多少時間？再給你們一個機會，有沒有估算過？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個安全檢查必須視個別機組的狀態，如果有零件要更換，那麼還需要更多的時間，所以這有一定的不確定性……"],["葛委員如鈞：那經費有沒有範圍？"],["陳主任委員東陽：經費可能要台電來說明。"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個經費就誠如剛才主委講的，要逐一下去檢視，才可以知道經費要怎麼編列。"],["葛委員如鈞：這真的是看起來……我們這邊是教文，我舉個例子，有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了，不知道他要唸幾年、也不知道他要多少學費，這真的是我們面對電力的作法嗎？","日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展，非常積極和國際企業合作，廠商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合，其實也會到當地參訪電廠，就本席瞭解，近期也有臺灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠。請問經濟部和國發會，日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力供應的穩定性，那我們呢？我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電？我們有去參訪、我們有去瞭解嗎？剛剛還有人說沒有聽過這些消息，難道我們要用綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎？是這樣嗎？就是說，我們的綠能技術一片安詳、股價一片看好，是這樣嗎？我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們如果有重大投資一定是經過規劃、一定是穩定供電的。"],["葛委員如鈞：那剛剛說如果跳電、如果供電不穩定，誰要下臺？次長要下臺嗎？有人要負責嗎？","童子賢董事長最近又說了，現在我們的跨界良心，他說非核家園政策正在卡住臺灣，削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力，這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂。今天國民黨主動出來，我們主動出來要破除什麼？我們今天多一張，我覺得我們不是煞車皮，國民黨不是煞車皮，我們是雷神之鎚，好不好！我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌，好不好？我們開大門、走大路、審法案，下臺階都搭好了，執政黨不要繼續陷賴總統於不義，把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱、腳踏多條船的負心漢，我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之鎚，雷神之鎚，畫個閃電，把我們的賴總統弄成這樣，真的是對的嗎？","同時，我要再強調，民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎？當然不行，國會改革法案，我們提出跟過去相同的內容，民進黨反對的理由是時空背景不同，我們邀請總統來做國情報告，也是過去民進黨的主張，民進黨反對理由是什麼？時空背景不同，但是現在面對核電廠延役，各國都在擁抱核能，明顯就是時空背景不同，現在你們突然又不講啦！雙重標準，現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎？難怪童子賢形容臺灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好，是集體處在夢遊的狀態。","各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去，剛剛我問了很多問題，你們都停在那邊，也許真的是在夢遊啦！希望不是，希望稍後的逐條審查當中，各位可以清醒過來，我們理性務實地一起討論法案，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝各位，謝謝葛如鈞委員。接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 802.622, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 802.622, \"end\": 802.722, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 802.722, \"end\": 802.783, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 802.783, \"end\": 802.803, \"score\": 0.093}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 802.803, \"end\": 802.883, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 802.883, \"end\": 802.903, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,130\n我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記證以及台電董事長備詢對不起請這四個單位謝謝好\n\n2\n00:00:27,771 --> 00:00:53,625\n今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎\n\n3\n00:00:56,990 --> 00:01:24,505\n報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電\n\n4\n00:01:25,868 --> 00:01:31,430\n在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?\n\n5\n00:01:48,643 --> 00:02:03,794\n沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告\n\n6\n00:02:04,554 --> 00:02:22,807\n下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若有國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。\n\n7\n00:02:26,289 --> 00:02:31,237\n最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年\n\n8\n00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:58,850\n甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員,剛才講的是說你檢查要5年,但是如果你要再重置的話,有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。我聽你解釋啦\n\n9\n00:03:00,287 --> 00:03:14,760\n你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?\n\n10\n00:03:22,318 --> 00:03:34,989\n在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前\n\n11\n00:03:46,258 --> 00:04:13,694\n公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告\n\n12\n00:04:15,051 --> 00:04:36,550\n我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:41,752 --> 00:04:47,738\n我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事\n\n14\n00:05:00,803 --> 00:05:16,175\n義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?\n\n15\n00:05:24,344 --> 00:05:53,062\n為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊!科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?\n\n16\n00:05:53,982 --> 00:06:07,582\n我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長\n\n17\n00:06:08,632 --> 00:06:31,131\n另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人大家一搭一唱忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲一直說啊不是不愛啊只是迫於無奈啊520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水現在我們在討論核電廠研議的時候還是說得不清不楚說國外的狀況沒有研究\n\n18\n00:06:38,086 --> 00:07:03,348\n今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問委員會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎\n\n19\n00:07:05,649 --> 00:07:19,726\n我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重\n\n20\n00:07:24,278 --> 00:07:38,226\n那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?\n\n21\n00:07:51,826 --> 00:08:15,354\n算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會\n\n22\n00:08:16,914 --> 00:08:24,598\n現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映\n\n23\n00:08:33,182 --> 00:08:59,557\n我們體育也能踢球,文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會\n\n24\n00:09:02,810 --> 00:09:25,622\n我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過\n\n25\n00:09:36,798 --> 00:09:50,791\n這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢有沒有範圍經費可能要台電來說明\n\n26\n00:09:52,366 --> 00:10:09,635\n因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作\n\n27\n00:10:16,938 --> 00:10:30,869\n場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的\n\n28\n00:10:42,638 --> 00:10:59,591\n難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的\n\n29\n00:11:07,844 --> 00:11:12,047\n那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來\n\n30\n00:11:38,234 --> 00:11:39,956\n主動出來勒?我們主動出來啦,要來破除什麼?我們今天多一張啦,多一張啊。我覺得我們不是煞車皮,國民黨不是煞車皮啊,我們是雷神之鎚啊,好不好?我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌,好不好?\n\n31\n00:11:59,395 --> 00:12:09,285\n我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了,執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義,把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱腳踏多條船的復興漢。」我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌,雷神之槌啊,我還畫了閃電。\n\n32\n00:12:20,455 --> 00:12:49,452\n把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。\n\n33\n00:12:50,012 --> 00:13:06,757\n但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態\n\n34\n00:13:08,678 --> 00:13:22,903\n各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1130\t我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記證以及台電董事長備詢對不起請這四個單位謝謝好\n27771\t53625\t今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎\n56990\t84505\t報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電\n85868\t91430\t在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?\n108643\t123794\t沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告\n124554\t142807\t下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若有國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。\n146289\t151237\t最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年\n157845\t178850\t甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員,剛才講的是說你檢查要5年,但是如果你要再重置的話,有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。我聽你解釋啦\n180287\t194760\t你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?\n202318\t214989\t在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前\n226258\t253694\t公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告\n255051\t276550\t我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?\n281752\t287738\t我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事\n300803\t316175\t義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?\n324344\t353062\t為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊!科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?\n353982\t367582\t我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長\n368632\t391131\t另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人大家一搭一唱忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲一直說啊不是不愛啊只是迫於無奈啊520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水現在我們在討論核電廠研議的時候還是說得不清不楚說國外的狀況沒有研究\n398086\t423348\t今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問委員會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎\n425649\t439726\t我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重\n444278\t458226\t那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?\n471826\t495354\t算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會\n496914\t504598\t現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映\n513182\t539557\t我們體育也能踢球,文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會\n542810\t565622\t我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過\n576798\t590791\t這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢 有沒有範圍經費可能要台電來說明\n592366\t609635\t因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作\n616938\t630869\t場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的\n642638\t659591\t難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的\n667844\t672047\t那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來\n698234\t699956\t主動出來勒?我們主動出來啦,要來破除什麼?我們今天多一張啦,多一張啊。我覺得我們不是煞車皮,國民黨不是煞車皮啊,我們是雷神之鎚啊,好不好?我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌,好不好?\n719395\t729285\t我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了,執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義,把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱腳踏多條船的復興漢。」我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌,雷神之槌啊,我還畫了閃電。\n740455\t769452\t把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。\n770012\t786757\t但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態\n788678\t802903\t各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝\n","txt":"我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記證以及台電董事長備詢對不起請這四個單位謝謝好\n今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎\n報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電\n在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?\n沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告\n下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若有國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。\n最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年\n甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員,剛才講的是說你檢查要5年,但是如果你要再重置的話,有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。我聽你解釋啦\n你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?\n在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前\n公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告\n我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?\n我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事\n義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?\n為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊!科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?\n我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長\n另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人大家一搭一唱忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲一直說啊不是不愛啊只是迫於無奈啊520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水現在我們在討論核電廠研議的時候還是說得不清不楚說國外的狀況沒有研究\n今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問委員會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎\n我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重\n那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?\n算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會\n現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映\n我們體育也能踢球,文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會\n我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過\n這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢 有沒有範圍經費可能要台電來說明\n因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作\n場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的\n難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的\n那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來\n主動出來勒?我們主動出來啦,要來破除什麼?我們今天多一張啦,多一張啊。我覺得我們不是煞車皮,國民黨不是煞車皮啊,我們是雷神之鎚啊,好不好?我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌,好不好?\n我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了,執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義,把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱腳踏多條船的復興漢。」我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌,雷神之槌啊,我還畫了閃電。\n把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。\n但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態\n各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.130\n我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記證以及台電董事長備詢對不起請這四個單位謝謝好\n\n00:27.771 --> 00:53.625\n今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎\n\n00:56.990 --> 01:24.505\n報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電\n\n01:25.868 --> 01:31.430\n在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?\n\n01:48.643 --> 02:03.794\n沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告\n\n02:04.554 --> 02:22.807\n下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若有國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。\n\n02:26.289 --> 02:31.237\n最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年\n\n02:37.845 --> 02:58.850\n甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員,剛才講的是說你檢查要5年,但是如果你要再重置的話,有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。我聽你解釋啦\n\n03:00.287 --> 03:14.760\n你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?\n\n03:22.318 --> 03:34.989\n在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前\n\n03:46.258 --> 04:13.694\n公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告\n\n04:15.051 --> 04:36.550\n我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?\n\n04:41.752 --> 04:47.738\n我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事\n\n05:00.803 --> 05:16.175\n義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?\n\n05:24.344 --> 05:53.062\n為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊!科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?\n\n05:53.982 --> 06:07.582\n我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長\n\n06:08.632 --> 06:31.131\n另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人大家一搭一唱忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲一直說啊不是不愛啊只是迫於無奈啊520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水現在我們在討論核電廠研議的時候還是說得不清不楚說國外的狀況沒有研究\n\n06:38.086 --> 07:03.348\n今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問委員會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎\n\n07:05.649 --> 07:19.726\n我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重\n\n07:24.278 --> 07:38.226\n那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?\n\n07:51.826 --> 08:15.354\n算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會\n\n08:16.914 --> 08:24.598\n現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映\n\n08:33.182 --> 08:59.557\n我們體育也能踢球,文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會\n\n09:02.810 --> 09:25.622\n我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過\n\n09:36.798 --> 09:50.791\n這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢有沒有範圍經費可能要台電來說明\n\n09:52.366 --> 10:09.635\n因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作\n\n10:16.938 --> 10:30.869\n場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的\n\n10:42.638 --> 10:59.591\n難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的\n\n11:07.844 --> 11:12.047\n那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來\n\n11:38.234 --> 11:39.956\n主動出來勒?我們主動出來啦,要來破除什麼?我們今天多一張啦,多一張啊。我覺得我們不是煞車皮,國民黨不是煞車皮啊,我們是雷神之鎚啊,好不好?我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌,好不好?\n\n11:59.395 --> 12:09.285\n我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了,執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義,把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱腳踏多條船的復興漢。」我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌,雷神之槌啊,我還畫了閃電。\n\n12:20.455 --> 12:49.452\n把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。\n\n12:50.012 --> 13:06.757\n但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態\n\n13:08.678 --> 13:22.903\n各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.13,"text":"我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記證以及台電董事長備詢對不起請這四個單位謝謝好"},{"start":27.771,"end":53.625,"text":"今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎"},{"start":56.99,"end":84.505,"text":"報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電"},{"start":85.868,"end":91.43,"text":"在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?"},{"start":108.643,"end":123.794,"text":"沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告"},{"start":124.554,"end":142.807,"text":"下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若有國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。"},{"start":146.289,"end":151.237,"text":"最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年"},{"start":157.845,"end":178.85,"text":"甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員,剛才講的是說你檢查要5年,但是如果你要再重置的話,有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。我聽你解釋啦"},{"start":180.287,"end":194.76,"text":"你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?"},{"start":202.318,"end":214.989,"text":"在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前"},{"start":226.258,"end":253.694,"text":"公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告"},{"start":255.051,"end":276.55,"text":"我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?"},{"start":281.752,"end":287.738,"text":"我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事"},{"start":300.803,"end":316.175,"text":"義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?"},{"start":324.344,"end":353.062,"text":"為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊!科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?"},{"start":353.982,"end":367.582,"text":"我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長"},{"start":368.632,"end":391.131,"text":"另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人大家一搭一唱忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲一直說啊不是不愛啊只是迫於無奈啊520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水現在我們在討論核電廠研議的時候還是說得不清不楚說國外的狀況沒有研究"},{"start":398.086,"end":423.348,"text":"今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問委員會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎"},{"start":425.649,"end":439.726,"text":"我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重"},{"start":444.278,"end":458.226,"text":"那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?"},{"start":471.826,"end":495.354,"text":"算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會"},{"start":496.914,"end":504.598,"text":"現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映"},{"start":513.182,"end":539.557,"text":"我們體育也能踢球,文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會"},{"start":542.81,"end":565.622,"text":"我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過"},{"start":576.798,"end":590.791,"text":"這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢 有沒有範圍經費可能要台電來說明"},{"start":592.366,"end":609.635,"text":"因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作"},{"start":616.938,"end":630.869,"text":"場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的"},{"start":642.638,"end":659.591,"text":"難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的"},{"start":667.844,"end":672.047,"text":"那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來"},{"start":698.234,"end":699.956,"text":"主動出來勒?我們主動出來啦,要來破除什麼?我們今天多一張啦,多一張啊。我覺得我們不是煞車皮,國民黨不是煞車皮啊,我們是雷神之鎚啊,好不好?我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌,好不好?"},{"start":719.395,"end":729.285,"text":"我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了,執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義,把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱腳踏多條船的復興漢。」我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌,雷神之槌啊,我還畫了閃電。"},{"start":740.455,"end":769.452,"text":"把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。"},{"start":770.012,"end":786.757,"text":"但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態"},{"start":788.678,"end":802.903,"text":"各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝"}]}}}}