{"id":154608,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8654752e5ec513df72652beeb573fd6de90a5faf2fa6890fc14c0d4092921a8965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:56:48 - 10:11:04","影片長度":"00:14:16","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:56:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:11:04+08:00","duration":856,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時56分）主席，我還是先一個會議詢問，你剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候說今天安排這個專報，是因為有本委員會委員請你安排這個主題，所以你安排了這個主題。我發現你雖然是本屆才進入立法院，你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問、質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大，剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明，也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢，請教主席，你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合之前那位委員對你請求希望安排的內容？有沒有？"],["主席：鍾召委，我們尊重每個委員的發言。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，都尊重啊！"],["主席：鍾召委，如果你有興趣可以去看一下我們歷次會議的直播，跟會議無關，整天在喊國會擴權、抗中保臺的是誰？所以我們不要在那邊討論這個問題，有興趣私下我們兩個討論就好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，因為你剛剛有一些跟法務部長可能是私下的對話，你公開講，如果按照你剛剛的詢問，你覺得你過去當檢察官有被施壓，或許今天的專報題目可以改為如何促進本國司法檢察官獨立辦案，免於施壓的專報，這樣不是更好嗎？"],["主席：鍾召委，我哪一句話說我被施壓？"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛黃委員問完之後就問你啊！"],["主席：鍾召委，我剛剛特別講了一句，我在為全國的檢察官講話，剛剛黃國昌委員講話，我也說了一句，以前怎麼樣我不知道，但是我相信部長不會，我也非常期待部長，我剛剛講了，如果你覺得不是，你回去聽聽看我剛剛說的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我尊重你的表達，您說過去你也不知道，包括你本人有沒有被施壓也不知道。"],["主席：不是！我跟你講，我記憶力沒有那麼差，過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利，任何人沒有權利逼我說，在這邊我相信你跟我，我們兩個都參加過劍青檢改會議，我們兩個都是支持檢察官的，我只希望我們就是挺基層檢察官，就這樣而已。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我支持、我支持，所以我很支持今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了，不過你這個題目我也很喜歡，因為我過去在財政委員會多年，這個題目非常適合在財政委員會大家來關心這樣的一個題目。","接下來我要邀請內政部董次長、工程會徐處長以及財政部李司長，我們就今天專報的主題來就教，雖然這個場景可能比較像在財政委員會。"],["主席：麻煩次長、處長、司長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、司長好、處長好。我們今天來關心所謂的公私模式，其實我也覺得很好奇，今天這個題目要怎麼來談，次長，這個圖你很熟悉，這是大學經濟學原理的供給曲線和需求曲線，我的標題怎麼說？我的標題是目前國家用融資及租稅手段要控制房市價格，但是根本是要用公共建設增加供給來滿足需求。我們來看這個圖，黑色的線是民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線及供給曲線，需求曲線是D，價格越高，需求就會被壓制；價格越低，數量就會越多，D是需求曲線。目前的供給曲線是S，我們認為價格P太高了，所以政府希望能夠把價格壓低，當價格壓低的時候是P2，透過房地合一稅，還有一個閉鎖期，以至於供給曲線變成怎麼樣？供給變少。供給變少的結果是什麼？當S變成S2的時候，價格就更高了，是不是這樣子？你同不同意？所以目前我們用融資、租稅的手段，包括房地合一稅、閉鎖期來避免房市炒作，短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲。但是長期來看，至少目前是造成供給減少，造成需要住屋的民眾要花更高的價格買到更少的房子，是不是這樣子？同不同意？"],["董次長建宏：主席、委員。感謝委員提問，原則上住宅不一定符合一般供給需求的狀態，住宅的供給過程有興建期的狀態。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，會有延遲。"],["董次長建宏：基本上，新青安還是幫助了許多年輕人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：減輕他目前融資的負擔。"],["董次長建宏：對，減輕一些負擔。但是我們也希望在房價上面要有所平抑，所以我們希望透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等，降低高單價的一些炒作，希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來取得房子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，因為內政部主管住宅，但是後面的問題在我們司長這邊了。司長，如果我們今天變成S1曲線，這是供給曲線，供給曲線增加了供給量，增加供給量之後價格會下降，可以滿足的需求量就更大，是不是這樣子？變成S1，是不是這樣子？所以要增加供給嗎？"],["李司長建賢：按照理論上是這樣子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以前面說的，我們不否定政府的一些政策，的確在控制高房價、高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效的，但長期來看，還是要增加供給，才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子，是不是這樣子？現在我們就要問司長了，有一種叫作地上權宅，我就不多做介紹，地上權宅土地是國家的，興建之後他在地上權的期限內，這個純粹的住屋是可以交易的，司長是不是這樣子？它跟社宅是不是不太一樣？"],["李司長建賢：這部分的業務不是我所主管的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，那我就問次長，是這樣沒錯吧？這個地上權宅跟社宅，社宅是用租賃的，不能轉售，但是地上權宅沒有土地，他不擁有土地，而是土地上的建物，他擁有它的所有權，一定年限的所有權，可以交易嘛，是不是？新加坡是不是這樣子？"],["董次長建宏：對，是。地上權是可以交易的，新加坡……"],["鍾委員佳濱：新加坡的組屋就是這樣的地上權宅？"],["董次長建宏：對！組屋是這樣的邏輯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下地上權宅的缺點是什麼？它不能繼承，因為時間到，它就被收回，一般來講現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數，包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口、婚前有自用住宅的非婚生子女人口比例，我們算一算，其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶，所以如果沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會不會偏好地上權宅？因為價格便宜嘛！不用含土地成本。"],["董次長建宏：基本上，對於相關土地的住宅需求，我們會討論各種方式來協助社會的需要，但是我們要觀察社會的需求，目前內政部所主導的政策，我們還是希望透過出租的方式，包括直接興建……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！直接興建。"],["董次長建宏：包括包租代管、租金補貼，我們都希望透過這樣租金補貼的方式，或者租金的一些價格補貼，來降低大家的需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那新加坡無土地所有權的地上權宅是不是也是一種可能考慮的方式？"],["董次長建宏：這當然都是可以列入討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以讓你們興建地上權的住宅，我們來看一看，假設一棟房子地上15樓、地下4樓，地上1、2樓的可以做店鋪，地下4層樓可以做車位，這個部分很適合作為興建者不把它賣掉、把它用來做營利使用，但是上面的3樓到15樓，可以用地上權宅的方式出售。請問次長，你覺得這樣的地上權宅，未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面回收他的興建成本？"],["董次長建宏：我想我們會再進行研議，這些相關的議題比較複雜啦！我們會本於提供國人合理安全的住宅，我們會做一些相關的思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，新青安目前核貸了五萬七千多戶，撥出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億，利率補貼是0.5%，每年支出要20億，如果我們今天用地上權宅提高房屋的供給，不是用利息補貼的方式，讓民眾、需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經興建好的住宅，我們來看看會有什麼結果，往下看。如果政府釋出地上權宅，是否也能夠滿足部分民眾對社會住宅的需求？次長，你覺得呢？"],["董次長建宏：對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議，我們的目的就如同委員講的，我們要讓住者有其屋，讓年輕人負擔得起。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實剛剛那個圖，就這個圖再往下看，我們去設算一下啦！如果把剛才那個地下4層樓、地上15層樓，他設定地下車位跟店舖，以不動產證券化的方式來經營，他的成本是可以透過這些底下營利的使用方式來回收興建成本，而相對住戶純住宅需求的價格會非常地低，大概是500萬以下。所以我想請問一下李司長，以剛剛我舉地上權宅的這個例子，目前以財政部持有的公有土地，如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外，也來興辦這樣的地上權宅，您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾，尤其是年輕人，需要住屋的需求？"],["李司長建賢：是！報告委員，目前財政部國產署的確有在辦理有關地上權住宅的一些標案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有在標了，是不是？"],["李司長建賢：有在辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是！"],["李司長建賢：但是實際的情形，我沒有辦法來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果以剛剛例子為例，未來以促參的方式，以政府來興辦底下有營利能力的車位也好、店舖也好，用不動產證券化的方式是不是可以透過民間的資金來幫助政府，也不用公務預算的方式，就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上權宅，您覺得有沒有這個可能？"],["李司長建賢：以促參法裡面所規範的公共建設，是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有包括地上權宅？"],["李司長建賢：這部分其實就沒有涉及地上權的問題，因為社會住宅本身它的用地其實是國有地，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道。地上權宅未來會不會納入社會住宅的一種類型？"],["李司長建賢：這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們都知道社會住宅是用租的啦！"],["李司長建賢：對！它其實是租的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地上權宅是賣的啦！"],["李司長建賢：對！所以這部分可能要再討論一下，因為一個是用標租設定地上權來做的，一個是用促參法來做的，兩者不一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，未來促參法也可能把這樣的地上權宅納入促參的範圍，可能嗎？"],["李司長建賢：我們可以來討論看看，因為其實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果用不動產證券化的方式來籌募資金，你覺得可行嗎？"],["李司長建賢：實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這塊，目前的投信投顧法也是希望推動用REITs……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理信託基金？"],["李司長建賢：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！請教次長，我知道你們內政部是主管住屋的需求，今天我們在談的這個題目怎麼樣透過公私合力的合作模式來滿足我們除了由政府出面來興建之外，也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求，是不是這樣？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子，你願不願意拿回去評估，把地上權宅也併同社宅，納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式？"],["董次長建宏：基本上，社宅的政策主要還是以三大項為主，即直接興建、包租代管跟租金補貼，我們希望透過租金補貼方式，先協助年輕人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：直接興建這是一個項目啊！"],["董次長建宏：至於委員所提到的地上權宅部分，我們會來做進一步的研擬，因為剛才財政部也表示這是一個有可能在進行的方式，我們來思考一下，這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量，透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果政府未來興辦地上權宅，你會支持類似案件需要的資金、融資的方式，也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化（REITs）的方式，把這樣的地上權宅也納入公建的範圍，你支不支持？"],["董次長建宏：這個部分我們需要再做研議、討論，因為REITs真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情，它有營利的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是！司長呢？你覺得未來如果在促參的部分，內政部把類似像社會住宅的地上權宅也納入住屋供給的模式，作為政府公建促參的一部分，你會不會支持？"],["李司長建賢：是，我們很樂觀其成，能夠來加速這個部分的興建。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。次長，那就拜託你，雖然今天是司法及法制委員會，我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法及法制委會討論這個題目，如果是在財政委員會問這個題目，我就很理直氣壯，雖然今天是在司法及法制委員會，請內政部承諾政府出土地興建地上權宅及地上權宅的車位、店面，以不動產證券化的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性，很具體喔！講的方法都很具體，可不可以做一個評估交給本席？"],["董次長建宏：好！我們內政部來研究評估，再向委員做書面報告，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝三位。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委，我們先休息1分鐘。","休息（10時11分）","繼續開會（10時12分）"],["主席：因為部長人有一點不舒服，我就先請部長回去休息。接下來由常次來代理部長。","下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"],["莊委員瑞雄：（10時12班）謝謝召委，有請內政部董次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長好，幾個問題來請教。"],["董次長建宏：是，不敢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：最近整個太平洋高壓太強了，臺灣就像一顆蕃薯一樣，我看我們沒有吹冷氣真的是不行的啦！天氣熱，在室內自然就會去開冷氣，我從2022年的時候，多次針對租屋族電費的部分，來向內政部還有台電、經濟部提出質詢。後來內政部也在租屋的租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項裡面，有去訂定每一度的電費不得收取超過台電所定當月用電量最高級距的每度金額。但是我們看到很多房東，現在還是會用不超過夏季電費的金額，比如說以一度5塊、6塊去超收，變相在賺這個價差。後來我要求台電就在帳單上加註同期的平均金額，我也一直在呼籲內政部在定型化契約裡面應該去記載，來保障租客繳交實際電費的權益。上個月底的時候，我有看到內政部宣布說租屋電費7月中旬要上路，這個部分要上路，新制的方向是怎麼樣？第二個，如果房東他還是不配合，租客有什麼樣的管道來提供給他們做協助？請次長。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員垂詢，有關於電費的部分，我們在新的定型化契約裡面，經過行政院審核通過之後，已經在7月8號（禮拜一）對外公告。公告過程裡面，如果大家沒有任何的疑義，我們會在7月15號上路，在上路的同時，我們就會把相關的懶人包還有新型的定型化契約都放進去。新型定型化契約裡面就如同委員所垂詢的，我們會把電價的需求狀況明定在裡面，房客跟房東在訂約的時候，每度的電價還有平均單價就是要依照台電所公布的這些相關範疇裡面去制定，而不得超過。如果超過了，會依據消保法的規範由房客去進行檢舉，我們也會有其他的稽核機制去協助進行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我們預計什麼時候上路？"],["董次長建宏：我們7月15號就會上路。"],["莊委員瑞雄：7月15號就會上路？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好。國庫署今天副署長也有到場，另外一個問題，我就延續剛剛其他委員的問題來請教兩位，我們現在政府整個新青安的政策，其實政府的美意就是想讓年輕人可以買得起房子，現在我們公股銀行總共撥貸40萬2,000戶，我請教兩位，曉不曉得大約這個金額有多大？"],["林副署長秀燕：報告委員，您指的是目前為止累積撥貸金額嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["林副署長秀燕：如果是四十多萬戶的話，撥貸的金額累積到現在大概是1.9兆。"],["莊委員瑞雄：1.9兆其實是很高的一個數字，我相信政府最主要的目的就是要讓年輕人買得起房子嘛！去（2023）年房屋買賣移轉的棟數30.6萬棟，算是4年來的新低，算新低喔！但這個數字裡面其實是暗藏玄機，2023年下半年移轉的跟上半年比較起來，增加了約21%，為什麼會在下半年增加？兩位就很清楚了嘛！就是我們政府推出了新青安的政策。同時在今年5月份的房屋交易棟數達到兩萬六千多棟，是近10年的新高。","我看財政部最新的統計，新青安單月撥貸的戶數高達將近九千戶，就是八千多戶；平均每戶撥貸金額來到768萬。剛剛副署長談到的就是公股銀行總共撥貸的40萬2,000戶裡面，撥貸的總金額來到了1.8兆，同時今年5月交易棟數2萬6,000棟，是10年來的新高。數據也呈現得很明顯，整個新青安的政策讓房屋市場交易熱絡了起來，熱絡不是壞事喔！熱絡本席倒不反對喔！但是對於這些適用新青安政策的人，似乎大家都是以自住為目的，這其實也是證明大家買房子也變得容易了。","可是我必須要提出來，假設一個中古屋今天開價2,000萬，如果投資客要買的話，就會向下去斡旋，一定會是這樣子，要有一定的利潤嘛！可是投資客認為最高可能是1,900萬，至少要賺個100萬，超過了他就覺得比例太少，就不買了。但同樣如果是2,000萬，年輕人有新青安政策出來以後，多個人在斡旋的話，他就認為我要自住，那我可能就是會向上斡旋，又增加啦！這樣來講的話，又有可能造成房價再度上漲。","所以本席想請教，就我所瞭解，6月24號行政院有開了一個新青安貸款的檢討會議，這個會議裡面是不是有具體的結論？還有，對於整個政策影響整體的房市，內政部你們有什麼看法？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員垂詢，跟委員報告，有關於房市的問題，本部的立場一向是我們要提供足夠的住宅，讓年輕人能夠買得起，所以在那個會議裡面，我們就是提出相關的貸款條件，也拜託財政部多做嚴格的審查，我們也會訂定一些相關明確的方法，讓年輕人能夠申請到相關的資金，而不是說變成是……另外，本部也會與許多的業者合作，我們去瞭解在整個申貸、買賣過程裡面，它必須要從嚴去審核相關的資格，才能夠符合新青安的貸款。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我相信大多數人認為這個政策是對的，政策當然就是對的啦！但是我們也很擔心，因為新青安政策讓漲幅趨緩的房市又再節節飆高，我們擔心的是這個，尤其銀行不是在發錢，那個本金要還的耶！所以我的意思是，我希望內政部跟財政部要特別去留意，尤其是在利用新青安轉租或人頭戶的違規借款戶，到了7月5號，你盤點出來高風險的案件大約是1,000戶嘛！你這1,000戶裡面主要高機率是人頭戶的借款戶以及確定違規的借款戶。我就進一步來請教副署長，有什麼樣的態樣或是行為才會被列入疑似違規或者人頭戶？"],["林副署長秀燕：是，謝謝委員垂詢，我這邊報告的是，新青安施行到現在，誠如剛剛委員提到的，其實新青安的目的是要協助無自有住宅的民眾能夠購屋成家，這個其實是立意很良善的一個政策。至於最近大家在討論可能有一些是人頭戶，或者有一些是申請新青安之後再去轉租的，這個部分我們現在也已經著手在處理了。我們會請各個行庫在受理的時候，除了要落實他貸前的徵審，包含借款人相關的收支狀況，都是在貸前的時候必須要納入核貸的考量；另外就是強化貸後的管理，包含貸後相關資金用途的稽查。再來，我們從6月27號之後，有要求必須要做自住的切結書；另外有限貸1次這樣子的方式。這些努力其實都是希望回到這個政策的初衷，就是讓沒有自有住宅的民眾能夠自住，然後來申請這樣子的貸款。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我最主要是要提出提醒啦！譬如你說屬於比較高風險的，第三人去繳交房貸，其中第三人有可能是父母、有可能是兄弟姐妹啊！這一些可能提出證明都很容易，就不會被列入下一階段的高風險案件。但是有一部分高風險提出的解釋是，那是我兄弟姐妹幫忙的，或者是我的未婚對象，或者我交往的人，大家一起要來繳房貸的，什麼理由可能都會有，但這理由可能是真，也有可能是假，這個你們也必須要特別去留意啦！這些使用人頭戶的人，他也不是笨蛋啦！比如說我是「同一銀行同一第三人」繳交多個借款戶的房貸，這個比較容易發現了吧？可是如果是多銀行呢？我分別在不同的銀行申貸啊，你們各銀行之間的個資到底有沒有互通？這類案件，我請問次長或者是副署長，這些案件你們怎麼去處理？"],["林副署長秀燕：有關可能在不同銀行申貸的部分，目前我們也在跟金管會還有聯徵中心研議，在聯徵的紀錄上面其實可以去做一些讓銀行在受理的時候，就可以看出他是不是曾經在別的銀行也申貸過，這個措施我們目前還在研議，但是大概會朝這個方向來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個政策年輕朋友會認同，也會喜歡，政府也應該朝這個方向去做，但問題是我們擔心的就是炒作的人，利用我們政府這樣的一個政策，那這整個美意完全就喪失掉了。尤其是我們看這個月房子的一個交戶數，內政部跟財政部在這個地方要特別留意啦，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，下一位我們請羅智強委員，待會在羅智強委員詢答完畢後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳玉珍","葉元之","翁曉玲","沈發惠","傅崐萁","傅崐萁"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位\n列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"154608","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154608","tool":"pyannote","id":"154608-pyannote"},"job_id":"cRwzavvEPxam9eqm","queued_at":"2024-07-10 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\"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 31.038, \"end\": 31.438, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 31.438, \"end\": 31.558, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 31.558, \"end\": 31.658, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 31.658, \"end\": 33.64, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 33.64, \"end\": 34.28, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 34.28, \"end\": 34.921, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 34.921, \"end\": 35.061, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 35.061, \"end\": 35.221, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 35.221, \"end\": 35.501, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 35.501, \"end\": 35.662, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 35.662, \"end\": 35.942, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 35.942, \"end\": 37.023, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 37.023, \"end\": 37.183, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 37.183, \"end\": 37.323, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 37.323, \"end\": 37.443, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 37.443, \"end\": 37.683, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 37.683, \"end\": 37.803, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 37.803, \"end\": 38.063, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 38.063, \"end\": 38.344, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 38.344, \"end\": 38.504, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 38.504, \"end\": 39.084, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 39.084, \"end\": 39.184, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 39.184, \"end\": 40.065, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, 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\"words\": [{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 44.229, \"end\": 44.409, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 44.409, \"end\": 44.589, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 44.589, \"end\": 45.891, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 45.891, \"end\": 46.312, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 46.312, \"end\": 46.793, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 46.793, \"end\": 46.953, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 46.953, \"end\": 47.393, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 47.393, \"end\": 47.654, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 47.654, \"end\": 47.974, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 47.974, \"end\": 48.174, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 48.174, \"end\": 48.335, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 48.335, \"end\": 48.475, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 48.475, 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{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 90.659, \"end\": 90.859, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 90.859, \"end\": 91.319, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 91.319, \"end\": 91.46, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"句\", \"start\": 91.46, \"end\": 92.62, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 92.62, \"end\": 92.86, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 92.86, \"end\": 93.381, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 93.381, \"end\": 93.981, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 93.981, \"end\": 94.361, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 94.361, \"end\": 94.561, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 94.561, \"end\": 95.662, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 95.662, \"end\": 95.842, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 105.728, \"end\": 106.108, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 106.108, \"end\": 106.228, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 106.228, \"end\": 106.348, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 106.348, \"end\": 106.488, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 106.488, \"end\": 106.788, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 106.788, \"end\": 106.888, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 106.888, \"end\": 106.988, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 106.988, \"end\": 107.129, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 107.129, \"end\": 107.269, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 107.269, \"end\": 107.349, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.349, \"end\": 107.369, \"score\": 0.005}, 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\"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 726.668, \"end\": 726.808, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 726.808, \"end\": 726.968, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 726.968, \"end\": 727.088, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 727.088, \"end\": 727.208, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 727.208, \"end\": 727.368, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 727.368, \"end\": 727.448, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 727.448, \"end\": 727.468, \"score\": 0.027}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 727.468, \"end\": 727.489, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 728.469, \"end\": 753.519, \"text\": \"那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 728.469, \"end\": 728.629, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 728.629, \"end\": 728.869, \"score\": 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\"start\": 750.898, \"end\": 751.298, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 751.298, \"end\": 751.458, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 751.458, \"end\": 751.578, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 751.578, \"end\": 751.978, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 751.978, \"end\": 752.198, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 752.198, \"end\": 752.558, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"輕\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 752.558, \"end\": 752.758, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 752.758, \"end\": 752.938, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 752.938, \"end\": 753.038, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 753.038, \"end\": 753.198, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"興\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 753.198, \"end\": 753.319, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 753.319, \"end\": 753.459, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 753.459, \"end\": 753.499, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 753.499, \"end\": 753.519, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 754.679, \"end\": 775.497, \"text\": \"那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 754.679, \"end\": 755.159, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 755.159, \"end\": 755.3, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 755.3, \"end\": 755.7, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 755.7, \"end\": 755.98, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 755.98, \"end\": 756.18, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 756.18, \"end\": 756.321, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 756.321, \"end\": 756.461, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 756.461, \"end\": 758.082, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 849.565, \"end\": 849.745, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 849.745, \"end\": 849.885, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 849.885, \"end\": 850.066, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 850.066, \"end\": 850.406, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 850.406, \"end\": 851.088, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 851.088, \"end\": 851.388, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 851.388, \"end\": 851.789, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 851.789, \"end\": 853.151, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 853.151, \"end\": 853.352, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 853.352, \"end\": 854.534, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 854.534, \"end\": 854.914, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"鍾\"}, {\"word\": \"昭\", \"start\": 854.914, \"end\": 854.934, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,032 --> 00:00:18,618\n主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題\n\n2\n00:00:19,369 --> 00:00:41,726\n那我發現您雖然是本屆財新盧立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請\n\n3\n00:00:44,229 --> 00:00:53,862\n中召委每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言中召委如果你有興趣去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播\n\n4\n00:00:55,083 --> 00:00:57,204\n這不是更好嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:23,635 --> 00:01:50,891\n我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以鍾召偉剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛剛講了如果你覺得不是你們聽聽看我剛剛說的好那我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被\n\n6\n00:01:52,452 --> 00:02:15,206\n我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官是這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了\n\n7\n00:02:15,846 --> 00:02:15,946\n財政委員會\n\n8\n00:02:45,294 --> 00:03:12,495\n市長好市長好處長好來我們今天來關心的所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們發現市長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格\n\n9\n00:03:13,396 --> 00:03:42,475\n但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S\n\n10\n00:03:43,756 --> 00:04:03,391\n目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但是它當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼\n\n11\n00:04:04,454 --> 00:04:32,481\n是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意\n\n12\n00:04:34,381 --> 00:04:46,712\n主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有興建期的狀態\n\n13\n00:04:48,974 --> 00:05:17,840\n那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高漲價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長\n\n14\n00:05:19,585 --> 00:05:34,120\n那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?\n\n15\n00:05:37,445 --> 00:05:53,632\n報告委員按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子好往下看\n\n16\n00:05:54,572 --> 00:06:14,437\n現在我們要有一個就問市長了,地上全宅,我就多多介紹,地上全宅土地是國家的,興建之後他在地上全的期限內,這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的,市長是不是這樣子?他跟社宅是不是不太一樣?包委員,這部分的業務因為不是我...OK,那我們就問市長\n\n17\n00:06:17,509 --> 00:06:43,529\n是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地他不擁有土地他是土地上的建物他擁有他的所有權一定前年限的所有權可以交易嘛是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣子的邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼他不能繼承\n\n18\n00:06:44,369 --> 00:07:10,769\n因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口的比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅\n\n19\n00:07:12,746 --> 00:07:36,480\n因為價格便宜嘛不用含土地成本報告委員我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管\n\n20\n00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:37,040\n新建地下\n\n21\n00:07:53,527 --> 00:08:12,394\n地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉他把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面\n\n22\n00:08:22,977 --> 00:08:46,591\n來回收他的信任成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本已提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢核貸了五萬七千多戶啊播出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億\n\n23\n00:08:50,031 --> 00:09:09,294\n如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看看他會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?\n\n24\n00:09:10,166 --> 00:09:31,394\n我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們就射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話\n\n25\n00:09:34,455 --> 00:09:34,555\n李市長﹗\n\n26\n00:09:52,216 --> 00:10:09,544\n以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求\n\n27\n00:10:11,861 --> 00:10:27,519\n報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在促餐的方式\n\n28\n00:10:28,479 --> 00:10:47,155\n以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅您覺得有沒有這個可能\n\n29\n00:10:48,100 --> 00:11:10,691\n報告委員以初參法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型\n\n30\n00:11:14,446 --> 00:11:30,953\n這位處長我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦對,所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的好,那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?\n\n31\n00:11:32,482 --> 00:11:48,118\n我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產政修方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理系統資金是沒有錯謝謝來請教次長\n\n32\n00:11:50,373 --> 00:12:07,489\n那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣\n\n33\n00:12:08,469 --> 00:12:33,519\n那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎\n\n34\n00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:55,497\n那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇\n\n35\n00:12:56,158 --> 00:13:22,272\n那你支持未來類似政府來興辦地上全宅類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化瑞慈的方式把這樣的一個地上全宅也納入到這個公建的範圍你支持不支持這個跟委員報告這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為瑞慈是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題\n\n36\n00:13:23,855 --> 00:13:40,442\n市長,你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分,我們把這樣,內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式,類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來,作為政府公建出餐的一部分,你會不會支持?我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建。\n\n37\n00:13:41,562 --> 00:14:06,317\n那次長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法制委員會你承諾政府來出土地興建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產爭議的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席\n\n38\n00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:14,934\n好,我們內政部來研究評估,那再向委員做說明報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位好,謝謝鍾昭偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6032\t18618\t主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題\n19369\t41726\t那我發現您雖然是本屆財新盧立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請\n44229\t53862\t中召委每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言中召委如果你有興趣去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播\n55083\t57204\t這不是更好嗎?\n83635\t110891\t我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以鍾召偉剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛剛講了如果你覺得不是你們聽聽看我剛剛說的好那我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被\n112452\t135206\t我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官是這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了\n135846\t135946\t財政委員會\n165294\t192495\t市長好 市長好 處長好來 我們今天來關心的所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們發現 市長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理 供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說 我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格\n193396\t222475\t但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S\n223756\t243391\t目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但是它當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼\n244454\t272481\t是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意\n274381\t286712\t主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有興建期的狀態\n288974\t317840\t那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高漲價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長\n319585\t334120\t那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?\n337445\t353632\t報告委員按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子好往下看\n354572\t374437\t現在我們要有一個就問市長了,地上全宅,我就多多介紹,地上全宅土地是國家的,興建之後他在地上全的期限內,這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的,市長是不是這樣子?他跟社宅是不是不太一樣?包委員,這部分的業務因為不是我...OK,那我們就問市長\n377509\t403529\t是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地他不擁有土地他是土地上的建物他擁有他的所有權一定前年限的所有權可以交易嘛 是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣子的邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼他不能繼承\n404369\t430769\t因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口的比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅\n432746\t456480\t因為價格便宜嘛 不用含土地成本報告委員 我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管\n456840\t457040\t新建地下\n473527\t492394\t地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉他把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面\n502977\t526591\t來回收他的信任成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本已提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢核貸了五萬七千多戶啊播出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億\n530031\t549294\t如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看看他會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?\n550166\t571394\t我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們就射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話\n574455\t574555\t李市長﹗\n592216\t609544\t以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求\n611861\t627519\t報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在促餐的方式\n628479\t647155\t以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅您覺得有沒有這個可能\n648100\t670691\t報告委員以初參法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型\n674446\t690953\t這位處長我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦對,所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的好,那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?\n692482\t708118\t我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產政修方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理系統資金是 沒有錯 謝謝 來請教次長\n710373\t727489\t那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣\n728469\t753519\t那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎\n754679\t775497\t那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇\n776158\t802272\t那你支持未來類似政府來興辦地上全宅類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化瑞慈的方式把這樣的一個地上全宅也納入到這個公建的範圍你支持不支持這個跟委員報告這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為瑞慈是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題\n803855\t820442\t市長,你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分,我們把這樣,內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式,類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來,作為政府公建出餐的一部分,你會不會支持?我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建。\n821562\t846317\t那次長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法制委員會你承諾政府來出土地興建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產爭議的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席\n846920\t854934\t好,我們內政部來研究評估,那再向委員做說明報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位好,謝謝鍾昭偉\n","txt":"主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題\n那我發現您雖然是本屆財新盧立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請\n中召委每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言中召委如果你有興趣去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播\n這不是更好嗎?\n我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以鍾召偉剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛剛講了如果你覺得不是你們聽聽看我剛剛說的好那我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被\n我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官是這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了\n財政委員會\n市長好 市長好 處長好來 我們今天來關心的所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們發現 市長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理 供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說 我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格\n但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S\n目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但是它當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼\n是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意\n主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有興建期的狀態\n那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高漲價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長\n那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?\n報告委員按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子好往下看\n現在我們要有一個就問市長了,地上全宅,我就多多介紹,地上全宅土地是國家的,興建之後他在地上全的期限內,這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的,市長是不是這樣子?他跟社宅是不是不太一樣?包委員,這部分的業務因為不是我...OK,那我們就問市長\n是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地他不擁有土地他是土地上的建物他擁有他的所有權一定前年限的所有權可以交易嘛 是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣子的邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼他不能繼承\n因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口的比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅\n因為價格便宜嘛 不用含土地成本報告委員 我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管\n新建地下\n地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉他把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面\n來回收他的信任成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本已提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢核貸了五萬七千多戶啊播出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億\n如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看看他會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?\n我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們就射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話\n李市長﹗\n以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求\n報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在促餐的方式\n以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅您覺得有沒有這個可能\n報告委員以初參法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型\n這位處長我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦對,所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的好,那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?\n我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產政修方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理系統資金是 沒有錯 謝謝 來請教次長\n那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣\n那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎\n那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇\n那你支持未來類似政府來興辦地上全宅類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化瑞慈的方式把這樣的一個地上全宅也納入到這個公建的範圍你支持不支持這個跟委員報告這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為瑞慈是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題\n市長,你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分,我們把這樣,內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式,類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來,作為政府公建出餐的一部分,你會不會支持?我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建。\n那次長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法制委員會你承諾政府來出土地興建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產爭議的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席\n好,我們內政部來研究評估,那再向委員做說明報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位好,謝謝鍾昭偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.032 --> 00:18.618\n主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題\n\n00:19.369 --> 00:41.726\n那我發現您雖然是本屆財新盧立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請\n\n00:44.229 --> 00:53.862\n中召委每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言中召委如果你有興趣去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播\n\n00:55.083 --> 00:57.204\n這不是更好嗎?\n\n01:23.635 --> 01:50.891\n我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以鍾召偉剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛剛講了如果你覺得不是你們聽聽看我剛剛說的好那我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被\n\n01:52.452 --> 02:15.206\n我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官是這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了\n\n02:15.846 --> 02:15.946\n財政委員會\n\n02:45.294 --> 03:12.495\n市長好市長好處長好來我們今天來關心的所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們發現市長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格\n\n03:13.396 --> 03:42.475\n但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S\n\n03:43.756 --> 04:03.391\n目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但是它當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼\n\n04:04.454 --> 04:32.481\n是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意\n\n04:34.381 --> 04:46.712\n主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有興建期的狀態\n\n04:48.974 --> 05:17.840\n那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高漲價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長\n\n05:19.585 --> 05:34.120\n那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?\n\n05:37.445 --> 05:53.632\n報告委員按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子好往下看\n\n05:54.572 --> 06:14.437\n現在我們要有一個就問市長了,地上全宅,我就多多介紹,地上全宅土地是國家的,興建之後他在地上全的期限內,這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的,市長是不是這樣子?他跟社宅是不是不太一樣?包委員,這部分的業務因為不是我...OK,那我們就問市長\n\n06:17.509 --> 06:43.529\n是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地他不擁有土地他是土地上的建物他擁有他的所有權一定前年限的所有權可以交易嘛是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣子的邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼他不能繼承\n\n06:44.369 --> 07:10.769\n因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口的比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅\n\n07:12.746 --> 07:36.480\n因為價格便宜嘛不用含土地成本報告委員我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管\n\n07:36.840 --> 07:37.040\n新建地下\n\n07:53.527 --> 08:12.394\n地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉他把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面\n\n08:22.977 --> 08:46.591\n來回收他的信任成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本已提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢核貸了五萬七千多戶啊播出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億\n\n08:50.031 --> 09:09.294\n如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看看他會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?\n\n09:10.166 --> 09:31.394\n我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們就射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話\n\n09:34.455 --> 09:34.555\n李市長﹗\n\n09:52.216 --> 10:09.544\n以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求\n\n10:11.861 --> 10:27.519\n報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在促餐的方式\n\n10:28.479 --> 10:47.155\n以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅您覺得有沒有這個可能\n\n10:48.100 --> 11:10.691\n報告委員以初參法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型\n\n11:14.446 --> 11:30.953\n這位處長我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦對,所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的好,那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?\n\n11:32.482 --> 11:48.118\n我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產政修方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理系統資金是沒有錯謝謝來請教次長\n\n11:50.373 --> 12:07.489\n那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣\n\n12:08.469 --> 12:33.519\n那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎\n\n12:34.679 --> 12:55.497\n那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇\n\n12:56.158 --> 13:22.272\n那你支持未來類似政府來興辦地上全宅類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化瑞慈的方式把這樣的一個地上全宅也納入到這個公建的範圍你支持不支持這個跟委員報告這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為瑞慈是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題\n\n13:23.855 --> 13:40.442\n市長,你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分,我們把這樣,內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式,類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來,作為政府公建出餐的一部分,你會不會支持?我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建。\n\n13:41.562 --> 14:06.317\n那次長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法制委員會你承諾政府來出土地興建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產爭議的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席\n\n14:06.920 --> 14:14.934\n好,我們內政部來研究評估,那再向委員做說明報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位好,謝謝鍾昭偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.032,"end":18.618,"text":"主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題"},{"start":19.369,"end":41.726,"text":"那我發現您雖然是本屆財新盧立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請"},{"start":44.229,"end":53.862,"text":"中召委每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言中召委如果你有興趣去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播"},{"start":55.083,"end":57.204,"text":"這不是更好嗎?"},{"start":83.635,"end":110.891,"text":"我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以鍾召偉剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛剛講了如果你覺得不是你們聽聽看我剛剛說的好那我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被"},{"start":112.452,"end":135.206,"text":"我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官是這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了"},{"start":135.846,"end":135.946,"text":"財政委員會"},{"start":165.294,"end":192.495,"text":"市長好 市長好 處長好來 我們今天來關心的所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們發現 市長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理 供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說 我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格"},{"start":193.396,"end":222.475,"text":"但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S"},{"start":223.756,"end":243.391,"text":"目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但是它當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼"},{"start":244.454,"end":272.481,"text":"是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意"},{"start":274.381,"end":286.712,"text":"主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有興建期的狀態"},{"start":288.974,"end":317.84,"text":"那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高漲價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長"},{"start":319.585,"end":334.12,"text":"那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?"},{"start":337.445,"end":353.632,"text":"報告委員按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子好往下看"},{"start":354.572,"end":374.437,"text":"現在我們要有一個就問市長了,地上全宅,我就多多介紹,地上全宅土地是國家的,興建之後他在地上全的期限內,這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的,市長是不是這樣子?他跟社宅是不是不太一樣?包委員,這部分的業務因為不是我...OK,那我們就問市長"},{"start":377.509,"end":403.529,"text":"是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地他不擁有土地他是土地上的建物他擁有他的所有權一定前年限的所有權可以交易嘛 是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣子的邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼他不能繼承"},{"start":404.369,"end":430.769,"text":"因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口的比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅"},{"start":432.746,"end":456.48,"text":"因為價格便宜嘛 不用含土地成本報告委員 我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管"},{"start":456.84,"end":457.04,"text":"新建地下"},{"start":473.527,"end":492.394,"text":"地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉他把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面"},{"start":502.977,"end":526.591,"text":"來回收他的信任成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本已提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢核貸了五萬七千多戶啊播出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億"},{"start":530.031,"end":549.294,"text":"如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看看他會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?"},{"start":550.166,"end":571.394,"text":"我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們就射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話"},{"start":574.455,"end":574.555,"text":"李市長﹗"},{"start":592.216,"end":609.544,"text":"以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求"},{"start":611.861,"end":627.519,"text":"報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在促餐的方式"},{"start":628.479,"end":647.155,"text":"以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅您覺得有沒有這個可能"},{"start":648.1,"end":670.691,"text":"報告委員以初參法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型"},{"start":674.446,"end":690.953,"text":"這位處長我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦對,所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的好,那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?"},{"start":692.482,"end":708.118,"text":"我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產政修方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理系統資金是 沒有錯 謝謝 來請教次長"},{"start":710.373,"end":727.489,"text":"那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣"},{"start":728.469,"end":753.519,"text":"那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎"},{"start":754.679,"end":775.497,"text":"那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇"},{"start":776.158,"end":802.272,"text":"那你支持未來類似政府來興辦地上全宅類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化瑞慈的方式把這樣的一個地上全宅也納入到這個公建的範圍你支持不支持這個跟委員報告這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為瑞慈是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題"},{"start":803.855,"end":820.442,"text":"市長,你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分,我們把這樣,內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式,類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來,作為政府公建出餐的一部分,你會不會支持?我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建。"},{"start":821.562,"end":846.317,"text":"那次長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法制委員會你承諾政府來出土地興建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產爭議的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席"},{"start":846.92,"end":854.934,"text":"好,我們內政部來研究評估,那再向委員做說明報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位好,謝謝鍾昭偉"}]}}}}