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{\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 202.373, \"end\": 202.513, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 202.513, \"end\": 202.653, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 202.653, \"end\": 202.673, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"圍\"}]}, {\"start\": 205.675, \"end\": 223.17, \"text\": \"中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 205.675, \"end\": 205.795, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 205.795, \"end\": 205.895, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 205.895, \"end\": 206.075, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 206.075, \"end\": 206.616, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 206.616, \"end\": 207.417, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 207.417, \"end\": 208.097, 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224.031, \"end\": 244.027, \"text\": \"那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 224.031, \"end\": 224.672, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 224.672, \"end\": 224.792, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 224.792, \"end\": 224.932, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 224.932, \"end\": 225.072, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 225.072, \"end\": 225.272, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 225.272, \"end\": 225.933, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 225.933, \"end\": 226.113, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 226.113, \"end\": 226.353, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 226.353, \"end\": 226.513, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 226.513, \"end\": 226.673, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": 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280.301, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 280.301, \"end\": 280.501, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"突\", \"start\": 280.501, \"end\": 280.681, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"破\", \"start\": 280.681, \"end\": 280.881, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 280.881, \"end\": 281.021, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 281.021, \"end\": 281.121, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 281.121, \"end\": 281.201, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 281.201, \"end\": 281.582, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 281.582, \"end\": 281.982, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 281.982, \"end\": 282.362, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 282.362, \"end\": 282.422, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 282.422, \"end\": 282.482, \"score\": 0.634}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 282.482, \"end\": 282.582, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 282.582, \"end\": 282.963, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 282.963, \"end\": 283.123, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 283.123, \"end\": 283.223, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 283.223, \"end\": 283.583, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 283.583, \"end\": 283.883, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 283.883, \"end\": 284.444, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 284.444, \"end\": 284.684, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 284.684, \"end\": 285.164, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 285.164, \"end\": 285.184, \"score\": 0.971}]}, {\"start\": 286.005, \"end\": 300.926, \"text\": \"然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 286.005, \"end\": 286.085, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 286.085, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 545.304, \"end\": 545.485, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 545.485, \"end\": 545.605, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 545.605, \"end\": 546.065, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 546.065, \"end\": 546.205, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 546.205, \"end\": 546.225, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"則\"}]}, {\"start\": 547.666, \"end\": 561.779, \"text\": \"對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 547.666, \"end\": 547.866, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 547.866, \"end\": 548.867, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"佈\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 548.867, \"end\": 549.087, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 549.087, \"end\": 549.328, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", 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{\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 561.638, \"end\": 561.658, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 561.658, \"end\": 561.739, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 561.739, \"end\": 561.759, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 561.759, \"end\": 561.779, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 572.688, \"end\": 592.876, \"text\": \"那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 572.688, \"end\": 572.828, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 572.828, \"end\": 573.128, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 573.128, \"end\": 573.228, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 573.228, \"end\": 573.388, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 573.388, \"end\": 573.468, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 573.468, \"end\": 573.588, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 573.588, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.17}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 588.054, \"end\": 588.414, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 588.414, \"end\": 588.634, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 588.634, \"end\": 589.114, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 589.114, \"end\": 589.234, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 589.234, \"end\": 589.555, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 589.555, \"end\": 589.735, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 589.735, \"end\": 590.275, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 590.275, \"end\": 590.415, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 590.415, \"end\": 590.515, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 590.515, \"end\": 590.635, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 590.635, \"end\": 590.815, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 590.815, \"end\": 591.635, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 591.635, \"end\": 591.735, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 591.735, \"end\": 591.975, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 591.975, \"end\": 592.256, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 592.256, \"end\": 592.416, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 592.416, \"end\": 592.676, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 592.676, \"end\": 592.856, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 592.856, \"end\": 592.876, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 593.456, \"end\": 617.722, \"text\": \"那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 593.456, \"end\": 593.556, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 593.556, \"end\": 593.756, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 747.735, \"end\": 748.075, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 748.075, \"end\": 748.396, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 748.396, \"end\": 748.576, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 748.576, \"end\": 748.776, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 748.776, \"end\": 749.156, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 749.156, \"end\": 749.536, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 749.536, \"end\": 749.837, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 749.837, \"end\": 750.017, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 750.017, \"end\": 750.117, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 750.117, \"end\": 750.237, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 750.237, \"end\": 751.158, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 751.158, \"end\": 751.538, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 751.538, \"end\": 751.718, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 751.718, \"end\": 751.939, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 751.939, \"end\": 752.099, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 752.099, \"end\": 752.119, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 752.119, \"end\": 752.139, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 752.139, \"end\": 752.239, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 752.239, \"end\": 752.359, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 752.359, \"end\": 752.439, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 752.439, \"end\": 752.619, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 752.619, \"end\": 752.739, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 752.739, \"end\": 752.839, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 752.839, \"end\": 752.919, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 752.919, \"end\": 752.939, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,930\n請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長是,沈委員部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這一個報告事項是跟這一個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間\n\n2\n00:00:24,799 --> 00:00:44,634\n第1個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1一直到9然後民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些\n\n3\n00:00:46,355 --> 00:01:08,949\n這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的一個小小的整理那第一個我想問的事情就是從一到五這邊跟組件跟模組比較有關係看起來跟民間這都是民間在做那中科院會做一些比如說他在系統整合裡面然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊的蠻多的\n\n4\n00:01:10,771 --> 00:01:22,729\n所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式\n\n5\n00:01:23,474 --> 00:01:50,726\n創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑\n\n6\n00:01:51,846 --> 00:02:16,005\n他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案\n\n7\n00:02:17,066 --> 00:02:41,619\n他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的這個研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短\n\n8\n00:02:43,908 --> 00:03:00,318\n那因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候呢其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候呢他中間會有一些\n\n9\n00:03:01,178 --> 00:03:22,673\n來來回回的一些確認到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊然後以及他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說左邊這邊是中科院的第三條說中科院的業務範圍\n\n10\n00:03:25,675 --> 00:03:43,170\n中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任\n\n11\n00:03:44,031 --> 00:04:04,027\n那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個\n\n12\n00:04:05,388 --> 00:04:18,964\n當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍\n\n13\n00:04:20,265 --> 00:04:45,184\n所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款\n\n14\n00:04:46,005 --> 00:05:00,926\n然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的\n\n15\n00:05:01,306 --> 00:05:28,300\n然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它整理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己\n\n16\n00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:39,873\n所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要\n\n17\n00:05:43,182 --> 00:06:06,281\n這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位,這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。\n\n18\n00:06:06,681 --> 00:06:07,002\n沈伯洋\n\n19\n00:06:22,443 --> 00:06:37,260\n好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是\n\n20\n00:06:38,061 --> 00:07:01,761\n我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗\n\n21\n00:07:05,465 --> 00:07:22,140\n眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機\n\n22\n00:07:22,941 --> 00:07:44,066\n那真打一體的無人機它也有可能會有這些問題嗎就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦那今天它的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面它不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些嚴厲相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個但那沒有放在優先\n\n23\n00:07:45,126 --> 00:08:13,112\n對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的\n\n24\n00:08:16,133 --> 00:08:35,943\n所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令\n\n25\n00:08:39,085 --> 00:09:06,225\n跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則\n\n26\n00:09:07,666 --> 00:09:21,779\n對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道\n\n27\n00:09:32,688 --> 00:09:52,876\n那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦\n\n28\n00:09:53,456 --> 00:10:17,722\n那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升\n\n29\n00:10:18,482 --> 00:10:31,818\n未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是\n\n30\n00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:53,079\n專案評議會來請外部的委員來參與這個我們吊牙小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益審判法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也\n\n31\n00:10:53,719 --> 00:11:14,946\n一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個\n\n32\n00:11:16,910 --> 00:11:26,255\n這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解\n\n33\n00:11:28,215 --> 00:11:54,084\n我覺得這一點是OK的我覺得司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後\n\n34\n00:11:54,224 --> 00:11:54,504\n沈伯洋\n\n35\n00:12:20,909 --> 00:12:32,939\n因為外界有確實的聲音說軍演委員會要這樣那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制如果能夠盡快通過的話就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1930\t請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長是,沈委員部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這一個報告事項是跟這一個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間\n24799\t44634\t第1個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1一直到9然後民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些\n46355\t68949\t這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的一個小小的整理那第一個我想問的事情就是從一到五這邊跟組件跟模組比較有關係看起來跟民間這都是民間在做那中科院會做一些比如說他在系統整合裡面然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊的蠻多的\n70771\t82729\t所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式\n83474\t110726\t創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑\n111846\t136005\t他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案\n137066\t161619\t他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的這個研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短\n163908\t180318\t那因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候呢其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候呢他中間會有一些\n181178\t202673\t來來回回的一些確認到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊然後以及他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說左邊這邊是中科院的第三條說中科院的業務範圍\n205675\t223170\t中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任\n224031\t244027\t那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個\n245388\t258964\t當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍\n260265\t285184\t所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款\n286005\t300926\t然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的\n301306\t328300\t然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它整理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己\n328920\t339873\t所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要\n343182\t366281\t這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位,這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。\n366681\t367002\t沈伯洋\n382443\t397260\t好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是\n398061\t421761\t我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗\n425465\t442140\t眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機\n442941\t464066\t那真打一體的無人機它也有可能會有這些問題嗎就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦那今天它的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面它不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些嚴厲相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個但那沒有放在優先\n465126\t493112\t對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的\n496133\t515943\t所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令\n519085\t546225\t跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則\n547666\t561779\t對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道\n572688\t592876\t那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦\n593456\t617722\t那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升\n618482\t631818\t未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是\n633900\t653079\t專案評議會來請外部的委員來參與這個我們吊牙小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益審判法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也\n653719\t674946\t一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個\n676910\t686255\t這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解\n688215\t714084\t我覺得這一點是OK的我覺得司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後\n714224\t714504\t沈伯洋\n740909\t752939\t因為外界有確實的聲音說軍演委員會要這樣那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制如果能夠盡快通過的話就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢\n","txt":"請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長是,沈委員部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這一個報告事項是跟這一個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間\n第1個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1一直到9然後民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些\n這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的一個小小的整理那第一個我想問的事情就是從一到五這邊跟組件跟模組比較有關係看起來跟民間這都是民間在做那中科院會做一些比如說他在系統整合裡面然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊的蠻多的\n所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式\n創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑\n他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案\n他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的這個研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短\n那因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候呢其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候呢他中間會有一些\n來來回回的一些確認到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊然後以及他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說左邊這邊是中科院的第三條說中科院的業務範圍\n中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任\n那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個\n當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍\n所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款\n然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的\n然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它整理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己\n所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要\n這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位,這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。\n沈伯洋\n好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是\n我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗\n眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機\n那真打一體的無人機它也有可能會有這些問題嗎就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦那今天它的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面它不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些嚴厲相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個但那沒有放在優先\n對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的\n所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令\n跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則\n對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道\n那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦\n那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升\n未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是\n專案評議會來請外部的委員來參與這個我們吊牙小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益審判法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也\n一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個\n這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解\n我覺得這一點是OK的我覺得司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後\n沈伯洋\n因為外界有確實的聲音說軍演委員會要這樣那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制如果能夠盡快通過的話就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.930\n請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長是,沈委員部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這一個報告事項是跟這一個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間\n\n00:24.799 --> 00:44.634\n第1個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1一直到9然後民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些\n\n00:46.355 --> 01:08.949\n這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的一個小小的整理那第一個我想問的事情就是從一到五這邊跟組件跟模組比較有關係看起來跟民間這都是民間在做那中科院會做一些比如說他在系統整合裡面然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊的蠻多的\n\n01:10.771 --> 01:22.729\n所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式\n\n01:23.474 --> 01:50.726\n創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑\n\n01:51.846 --> 02:16.005\n他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案\n\n02:17.066 --> 02:41.619\n他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的這個研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短\n\n02:43.908 --> 03:00.318\n那因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候呢其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候呢他中間會有一些\n\n03:01.178 --> 03:22.673\n來來回回的一些確認到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊然後以及他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說左邊這邊是中科院的第三條說中科院的業務範圍\n\n03:25.675 --> 03:43.170\n中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任\n\n03:44.031 --> 04:04.027\n那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個\n\n04:05.388 --> 04:18.964\n當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍\n\n04:20.265 --> 04:45.184\n所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款\n\n04:46.005 --> 05:00.926\n然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的\n\n05:01.306 --> 05:28.300\n然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它整理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己\n\n05:28.920 --> 05:39.873\n所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要\n\n05:43.182 --> 06:06.281\n這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位,這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。\n\n06:06.681 --> 06:07.002\n沈伯洋\n\n06:22.443 --> 06:37.260\n好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是\n\n06:38.061 --> 07:01.761\n我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗\n\n07:05.465 --> 07:22.140\n眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機\n\n07:22.941 --> 07:44.066\n那真打一體的無人機它也有可能會有這些問題嗎就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦那今天它的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面它不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些嚴厲相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個但那沒有放在優先\n\n07:45.126 --> 08:13.112\n對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的\n\n08:16.133 --> 08:35.943\n所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令\n\n08:39.085 --> 09:06.225\n跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則\n\n09:07.666 --> 09:21.779\n對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道\n\n09:32.688 --> 09:52.876\n那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦\n\n09:53.456 --> 10:17.722\n那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升\n\n10:18.482 --> 10:31.818\n未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是\n\n10:33.900 --> 10:53.079\n專案評議會來請外部的委員來參與這個我們吊牙小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益審判法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也\n\n10:53.719 --> 11:14.946\n一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個\n\n11:16.910 --> 11:26.255\n這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解\n\n11:28.215 --> 11:54.084\n我覺得這一點是OK的我覺得司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後\n\n11:54.224 --> 11:54.504\n沈伯洋\n\n12:20.909 --> 12:32.939\n因為外界有確實的聲音說軍演委員會要這樣那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制如果能夠盡快通過的話就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.93,"text":"請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長是,沈委員部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這一個報告事項是跟這一個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間"},{"start":24.799,"end":44.634,"text":"第1個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1一直到9然後民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些"},{"start":46.355,"end":68.949,"text":"這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的一個小小的整理那第一個我想問的事情就是從一到五這邊跟組件跟模組比較有關係看起來跟民間這都是民間在做那中科院會做一些比如說他在系統整合裡面然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊的蠻多的"},{"start":70.771,"end":82.729,"text":"所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式"},{"start":83.474,"end":110.726,"text":"創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑"},{"start":111.846,"end":136.005,"text":"他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案"},{"start":137.066,"end":161.619,"text":"他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的這個研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短"},{"start":163.908,"end":180.318,"text":"那因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候呢其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候呢他中間會有一些"},{"start":181.178,"end":202.673,"text":"來來回回的一些確認到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊然後以及他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說左邊這邊是中科院的第三條說中科院的業務範圍"},{"start":205.675,"end":223.17,"text":"中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任"},{"start":224.031,"end":244.027,"text":"那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個"},{"start":245.388,"end":258.964,"text":"當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍"},{"start":260.265,"end":285.184,"text":"所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款"},{"start":286.005,"end":300.926,"text":"然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的"},{"start":301.306,"end":328.3,"text":"然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它整理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己"},{"start":328.92,"end":339.873,"text":"所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要"},{"start":343.182,"end":366.281,"text":"這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位,這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。"},{"start":366.681,"end":367.002,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":382.443,"end":397.26,"text":"好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是"},{"start":398.061,"end":421.761,"text":"我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗"},{"start":425.465,"end":442.14,"text":"眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機"},{"start":442.941,"end":464.066,"text":"那真打一體的無人機它也有可能會有這些問題嗎就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦那今天它的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面它不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些嚴厲相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個但那沒有放在優先"},{"start":465.126,"end":493.112,"text":"對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的"},{"start":496.133,"end":515.943,"text":"所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令"},{"start":519.085,"end":546.225,"text":"跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則"},{"start":547.666,"end":561.779,"text":"對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道"},{"start":572.688,"end":592.876,"text":"那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦"},{"start":593.456,"end":617.722,"text":"那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升"},{"start":618.482,"end":631.818,"text":"未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是"},{"start":633.9,"end":653.079,"text":"專案評議會來請外部的委員來參與這個我們吊牙小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益審判法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也"},{"start":653.719,"end":674.946,"text":"一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個"},{"start":676.91,"end":686.255,"text":"這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解"},{"start":688.215,"end":714.084,"text":"我覺得這一點是OK的我覺得司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後"},{"start":714.224,"end":714.504,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":740.909,"end":752.939,"text":"因為外界有確實的聲音說軍演委員會要這樣那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制如果能夠盡快通過的話就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢"}]}}}}