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10:21:08","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:11:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:21:08+08:00","duration":570,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時11分）謝謝主席，請核安會陳主委、經濟部連次長以及國發會的鄭簡技。"],["主席：好，我們就請三個單位的代表，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：早安。今天我們要討論「核子反應器設施管制法第六條修正草案」，其實這件事情涉及國家非核安全發展的方向，國發會這邊是今天只派產業處的鄭簡技，本席其實要表達一下質疑，國發會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向。","環境基本法第二十三條規定政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園的目標，並且應該加強核能安全的管制、輻射防護、放射性物料管理及環境輻射偵測，確保民眾避免輻射危害，這邊我想請教國發會的鄭簡技，目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的，有沒有變動？"],["鄭簡任技正永銘：跟委員報告，非核家園的目標是環境基本法的終極目標，國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以是一致的，是沒有變動的吧？但是跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電，本席認為跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的，會跳電跟停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係，我這邊想請教次長，跳電、停電跟缺電有什麼差別？你這邊是不是說明一下。"],["連次長錦漳：跳電跟饋線跳脫不是缺電啦！如果是缺電的話，應該是一整個區域，如果區域性……應該是一整個區域，它現在跳的都是譬如說這棟大樓，旁邊為什麼沒有？那個一定是設備上的一些問題，所以跳電不等於缺電……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失嘛？就像本席剛剛所說的，次長，一年多前111年臺灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份臺灣缺電風險分析報告，其裡面寫說，政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險，第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升，第二個是新式電網的發展太慢，第三是再生能源多元化進度落後，還有電力需求評估不明確，以及地緣政治風險，這邊想請教次長，如果我們使用核電，就能解決以上這些問題嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：沒辦法，我剛才有講，核電最快也要5年啟動，如果整個機組再去檢修或是有什麼問題，搞不好要超過5年，這5年對於整個電的補充是沒有幫助的，所以我們不能用這樣的條件來規劃未來整個電的供應，所以這個對整個供電是比較危險的策略，我們一定是在一個最嚴格的條件下，我要怎麼來充分供應臺灣整體的供電，這個是我們經濟部一個比較穩健的作法。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝次長，的確如果使用核電也沒有辦法解決剛才提出的這些問題，所以本席認為，核電廠根本沒有繼續運轉的必要，因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠在運轉的安全，當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候，其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉，根本是沒有實質意義的。我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我為什麼會有委員要提案、要修法？核廢料我們根本無法處置、無法處理，這些提案委員有沒有保證他們能夠做這些核廢料的最終處置？其實是沒有，我們沒有辦法處理我們核廢料的這些問題。","今天我們要討論的這個修正草案，現行的第六條有規定期滿須繼續運轉者，經營者須於執照有效期屆滿前，向主管機關申請換發執照，我想請教次長，台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果台電沒有規劃要……"],["連次長錦漳：目前的法律規定是不允許的。"],["陳委員秀寳：不允許也沒有規劃嘛！所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉，那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性？你們沒有要提出這樣的需求，所以法案根本沒有修正的必要性。今天討論的修正法案原文有規定說，核子反應器設施運轉執照最長期間是40年，期滿須運轉者，經營者須於主管機關規定之期限內申請換發執照，未依規定換發執照者，不得繼續運轉，我想請問陳主委，當營運執照到期後，它已經到期了，能不能換發執照？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前的法令是不允許。"],["陳委員秀寳：當初立法的時候是如何考量？時空背景有沒有改變？"],["陳主任委員東陽：在前5年到前15年，主要是因為安檢的需求，這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國相關的經驗，所以跟全世界是同步的。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以主委您剛剛也回答了，其實所有相關的規範都是為了安全考量，安全是最重要的，民眾真的非常的擔心，我要請教主委，如果條文真的強行通過，沒有經過換發執照的審查程序，真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎？我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分，台電必須事先就它想要研議的機組做健康檢查，然後提出一個報告，這個報告我剛才提到，它就是一個老化分析、整體性的老化評估、老化安全分析、時限老化分析，這個運轉機組的相關條件，這個報告檢視完後，如果它有零件或者是某些設備需要更換，它必須去做更換、更新，然後把所有的報告送到核安會來，核安會是由國外、國內跟我們會內的專家，就各個專業領域去做審查，這個時程還要看所有報告的完整性，看看是不是有什麼問題，他們可以需要再改進，所以時程有一定的不確定性。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以時程是絕對不能倉促的，因為每一個關卡都是攸關著核能的安全，核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項，民眾也希望知道如果像國民黨委員這樣子的修法、這樣子的提案，便宜行事，他們很質疑立法院怎麼可以擴權擴成這樣，只要是立法委員想做的，修法就可以，都可以不用顧慮安全、不用顧慮程序、不用顧慮是不是專業，民眾真的覺得非常的擔心，他們會覺得怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂。我現在要請教主委，已經屆期限才申請換發執照，在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個全世界的案例非常非常的少，以核二來講，我們已經停機將近2年，它還要做乾貯，最快最快還要再3年，所以假設延役的法案通過，它要重啟最快也要5、6年以後，一臺車你用了40年，停機6、7年，你要再重啟，那麼我們的安全檢視有更強的密度，是有一定的難度。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以主委回答的意思是有時候這個風險是非常非常的高，其實我們臺灣在世界產業的供應鏈上，是一個非常重要的角色，當然民眾、企業都需要穩定的供電，所以本席要要求，我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時，經濟部跟台電一定要強化電力系統供應的韌性。","最後，本席這邊要提醒大家，其實臺灣產業努力於改善能源的密集度，這幾年下來其實是有成效的，我們節省下來的用電量遠遠大於新建一座、兩座核電廠裝置的容量，如果我們體認到這個事實，就會發現我們臺灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源，造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮，所以本席認為，與其爭論臺灣應不應該採用核能，陷入曠日廢時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的過程，應該審慎地來規劃碳費，推出更多節能減碳的政策工具，會更加立竿見影。","因此本席在這邊也要建議召委，今天真的不要進入逐條審查，在沒有取得社會共識之前，不要倉促將民眾不接受、未取得社會共識的法案出委員會，以上。謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝！各位請回座。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 180.036, \"end\": 180.056, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 180.056, \"end\": 180.096, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 180.096, \"end\": 180.116, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 180.116, \"end\": 180.136, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 182.739, \"end\": 183.019, \"text\": \"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 182.739, \"end\": 182.819, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 182.819, \"end\": 182.839, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 182.839, \"end\": 182.859, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"邱\", \"start\": 182.859, \"end\": 182.959, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"鎮\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 182.959, \"end\": 182.979, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, 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\"那\", \"start\": 460.998, \"end\": 462.499, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 462.499, \"end\": 462.679, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 462.679, \"end\": 462.859, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 462.859, \"end\": 463.96, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 463.96, \"end\": 464.2, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 464.2, \"end\": 464.481, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 464.481, \"end\": 465.101, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 465.101, \"end\": 465.601, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 465.601, \"end\": 466.242, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 466.242, \"end\": 466.422, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 466.422, \"end\": 466.702, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", 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493.368, \"end\": 509.119, \"text\": \"那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 493.368, \"end\": 493.548, \"score\": 0.571}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 493.548, \"end\": 493.848, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 493.848, \"end\": 494.129, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 494.129, \"end\": 494.589, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 494.589, \"end\": 495.73, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 495.73, \"end\": 495.89, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 495.89, \"end\": 495.99, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 495.99, \"end\": 496.41, \"score\": 0.552}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 496.41, \"end\": 496.79, \"score\": 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507.578, \"end\": 507.738, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 507.738, \"end\": 507.758, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 507.758, \"end\": 507.998, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"韌\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 507.998, \"end\": 508.238, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 508.238, \"end\": 508.658, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 508.658, \"end\": 508.678, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 508.678, \"end\": 508.738, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 508.738, \"end\": 508.758, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 508.758, \"end\": 508.778, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 508.778, \"end\": 508.798, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 508.798, \"end\": 508.818, \"score\": 0.368}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 508.818, 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\"start\": 547.119, \"end\": 547.239, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 547.239, \"end\": 547.259, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 547.259, \"end\": 547.279, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,043 --> 00:00:00,703\n保委員。謝謝主席。請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。\n\n2\n00:00:21,454 --> 00:00:41,853\n陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向\n\n3\n00:00:42,814 --> 00:01:06,272\n在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動\n\n4\n00:01:11,261 --> 00:01:16,546\n跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個\n\n5\n00:01:18,517 --> 00:01:45,093\n非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長\n\n6\n00:01:47,354 --> 00:01:52,475\n條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長\n\n7\n00:02:13,961 --> 00:02:41,939\n一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電\n\n8\n00:02:42,839 --> 00:03:00,136\n就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你要是5年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過5年那這5年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個\n\n9\n00:03:02,739 --> 00:03:03,019\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n\n10\n00:03:24,625 --> 00:03:47,754\n因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠\n\n11\n00:03:49,435 --> 00:04:10,892\n做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題喔那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉\n\n12\n00:04:15,515 --> 00:04:41,085\n沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期\n\n13\n00:04:42,866 --> 00:04:57,632\n執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定至期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?\n\n14\n00:05:11,630 --> 00:05:25,817\n是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的\n\n15\n00:05:26,658 --> 00:05:51,619\n所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分\n\n16\n00:05:54,841 --> 00:06:09,818\n台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件\n\n17\n00:06:13,041 --> 00:06:30,587\n那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來核安會是有國外國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查\n\n18\n00:06:32,848 --> 00:06:45,958\n那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倡處的\n\n19\n00:06:47,619 --> 00:07:08,950\n因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是\n\n20\n00:07:09,890 --> 00:07:22,261\n他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險\n\n21\n00:07:36,675 --> 00:07:57,230\n這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車\n\n22\n00:07:58,331 --> 00:07:58,491\n三、審查委員\n\n23\n00:08:13,368 --> 00:08:29,119\n那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家\n\n24\n00:08:35,703 --> 00:08:43,427\n其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能\n\n25\n00:09:02,356 --> 00:09:07,279\n現入跨論費時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的這個過程應該審慎的來規劃碳費推出更多的節能減碳的政策工具會更加的立竿見影因此本席在這邊也要建議召委今天真的不要進入逐條審查在沒有取得社會共識之前不要長途的將民眾不接受未取得社會共識的法案出委員會以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n43\t703\t保委員。謝謝主席。請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。\n21454\t41853\t陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向\n42814\t66272\t在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動\n71261\t76546\t跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個\n78517\t105093\t非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長\n107354\t112475\t條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長\n133961\t161939\t一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電\n162839\t180136\t就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你要是5年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過5年那這5年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個\n182739\t183019\t三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n204625\t227754\t因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠\n229435\t250892\t做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題喔那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉\n255515\t281085\t沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期\n282866\t297632\t執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定至期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?\n311630\t325817\t是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的\n326658\t351619\t所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分\n354841\t369818\t台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件\n373041\t390587\t那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來核安會是有國外國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查\n392848\t405958\t那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倡處的\n407619\t428950\t因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是\n429890\t442261\t他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險\n456675\t477230\t這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車\n478331\t478491\t三、審查委員\n493368\t509119\t那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家\n515703\t523427\t其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能\n542356\t547279\t現入跨論費時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的這個過程應該審慎的來規劃碳費推出更多的節能減碳的政策工具會更加的立竿見影因此本席在這邊也要建議召委今天真的不要進入逐條審查在沒有取得社會共識之前不要長途的將民眾不接受未取得社會共識的法案出委員會以上謝謝\n","txt":"保委員。謝謝主席。請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。\n陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向\n在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動\n跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個\n非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長\n條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長\n一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電\n就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你要是5年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過5年那這5年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠\n做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題喔那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉\n沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期\n執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定至期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?\n是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的\n所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分\n台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件\n那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來核安會是有國外國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查\n那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倡處的\n因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是\n他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險\n這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車\n三、審查委員\n那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家\n其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能\n現入跨論費時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的這個過程應該審慎的來規劃碳費推出更多的節能減碳的政策工具會更加的立竿見影因此本席在這邊也要建議召委今天真的不要進入逐條審查在沒有取得社會共識之前不要長途的將民眾不接受未取得社會共識的法案出委員會以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.043 --> 00:00.703\n保委員。謝謝主席。請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。\n\n00:21.454 --> 00:41.853\n陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向\n\n00:42.814 --> 01:06.272\n在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動\n\n01:11.261 --> 01:16.546\n跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個\n\n01:18.517 --> 01:45.093\n非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長\n\n01:47.354 --> 01:52.475\n條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長\n\n02:13.961 --> 02:41.939\n一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電\n\n02:42.839 --> 03:00.136\n就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你要是5年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過5年那這5年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個\n\n03:02.739 --> 03:03.019\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具\n\n03:24.625 --> 03:47.754\n因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠\n\n03:49.435 --> 04:10.892\n做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題喔那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉\n\n04:15.515 --> 04:41.085\n沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期\n\n04:42.866 --> 04:57.632\n執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定至期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?\n\n05:11.630 --> 05:25.817\n是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的\n\n05:26.658 --> 05:51.619\n所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分\n\n05:54.841 --> 06:09.818\n台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件\n\n06:13.041 --> 06:30.587\n那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來核安會是有國外國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查\n\n06:32.848 --> 06:45.958\n那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倡處的\n\n06:47.619 --> 07:08.950\n因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是\n\n07:09.890 --> 07:22.261\n他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險\n\n07:36.675 --> 07:57.230\n這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車\n\n07:58.331 --> 07:58.491\n三、審查委員\n\n08:13.368 --> 08:29.119\n那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家\n\n08:35.703 --> 08:43.427\n其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能\n\n09:02.356 --> 09:07.279\n現入跨論費時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的這個過程應該審慎的來規劃碳費推出更多的節能減碳的政策工具會更加的立竿見影因此本席在這邊也要建議召委今天真的不要進入逐條審查在沒有取得社會共識之前不要長途的將民眾不接受未取得社會共識的法案出委員會以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.043,"end":0.703,"text":"保委員。謝謝主席。請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。"},{"start":21.454,"end":41.853,"text":"陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向"},{"start":42.814,"end":66.272,"text":"在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動"},{"start":71.261,"end":76.546,"text":"跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個"},{"start":78.517,"end":105.093,"text":"非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長"},{"start":107.354,"end":112.475,"text":"條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長"},{"start":133.961,"end":161.939,"text":"一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電"},{"start":162.839,"end":180.136,"text":"就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你要是5年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過5年那這5年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個"},{"start":182.739,"end":183.019,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":204.625,"end":227.754,"text":"因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠"},{"start":229.435,"end":250.892,"text":"做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題喔那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉"},{"start":255.515,"end":281.085,"text":"沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期"},{"start":282.866,"end":297.632,"text":"執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定至期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?"},{"start":311.63,"end":325.817,"text":"是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的"},{"start":326.658,"end":351.619,"text":"所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分"},{"start":354.841,"end":369.818,"text":"台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件"},{"start":373.041,"end":390.587,"text":"那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來核安會是有國外國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查"},{"start":392.848,"end":405.958,"text":"那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倡處的"},{"start":407.619,"end":428.95,"text":"因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是"},{"start":429.89,"end":442.261,"text":"他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險"},{"start":456.675,"end":477.23,"text":"這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車"},{"start":478.331,"end":478.491,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":493.368,"end":509.119,"text":"那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家"},{"start":515.703,"end":523.427,"text":"其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能"},{"start":542.356,"end":547.279,"text":"現入跨論費時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的這個過程應該審慎的來規劃碳費推出更多的節能減碳的政策工具會更加的立竿見影因此本席在這邊也要建議召委今天真的不要進入逐條審查在沒有取得社會共識之前不要長途的將民眾不接受未取得社會共識的法案出委員會以上謝謝"}]}}}}