{"id":154615,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d2b42eaf74d4f614a9bb3959728069a090a5faf2fa6890fc6d1a1d9ac38fd4c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:18:45 - 10:37:02","影片長度":"00:18:17","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:18:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:37:02+08:00","duration":1097,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早安。部長，在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露，就是說國軍使用中國製太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等，還有徐巧芯委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車紀錄器，那這幾天……因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候，顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚，或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分，因為這個其實是非常嚴重，這個不只一件，不只太陽能、不只行車紀錄器，還有很多過去其實也一直不斷地發生，我們先來看看，因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了，國防部當時除了更換以外，好像沒有其他的作法，可是我們常常說得非常大聲、定得好像非常嚴格，不可以使用陸製的產品，當我們嚴格要求的時候，甚至有些是法辦，可是有一些又輕輕地放過，我們不知道它的標準在哪裡，因為如果像公務車輛，尤其是高級將領，都是我們國防部高階的一些長官，他們的車輛都被裝上陸製的行車紀錄器，它到底已經透露什麼樣的訊息流出去，我們不得而知，可是我們看到現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上沒有認真的查察，或者在評估得標廠商的履約能力、或者廠商以洗產地或第三地貼牌的方式引進陸製產品，好像也沒有杜絕的方法。","我們首先來看看，因為本席對於這些行車紀錄器，當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問，那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕地帶過。我們來看一下，本席曾經就總金額兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車維修案，有提醒伊達諾公司以出具不實原廠授權書的方式向國防部接標案，那時候陸軍還有相關單位都堅持採購的過程合於規定，可是到最後也發現很多都是採購陸製產品。我們先來看看，包括這個行車紀錄器，當時是一家互暢公司得標，結果過沒多久，他媽媽的公司叫義坤金屬，從大陸進了大概1,400具左右的數量進來，到底這個家族做了我們國防部多少生意？","我們現在先看一下他們的紀錄，義坤金屬有34個案子被停權，互暢公司有17個案子被停權，暢威興業有4個案子被停權，再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們輕型戰術輪車的公司，他在後指部……目前二審的官司其實都輸了，可能很快也會被停權。我們來看看這些家族的關係，首先義坤金屬是互暢公司這個兒子的媽媽，然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司，還有另外一個女兒就是暢威興業，這些做了我們國防部非常多相關的標案，我剛剛唸了一堆，總共高達將近60件被停權的案子，他可以有60件被停權還不斷、不斷地拿到我們國防部的案子，這是非常離譜的事情，甚至這個公司還告我說好像誹謗他們的商譽，當然是他輸了，因為我們大概都有提出證據。","我現在要提出來的是，不管是太陽能相關的設備也好，或者像這些分布在陸、海、空各軍種所有的採購，其實都發生這樣的問題，請教部長，我們對於陸製產品這麼大聲疾呼在合約上面定有相關規定，後續要怎麼做？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：不然都是假的！"],["顧部長立雄：就太陽能光電的部分，因為他們原來認為是租屋、租地……"],["馬委員文君：部長，沒關係，因為黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的部分，我剛剛說其實有非常多，包括很多被停權的案子，很多都是因為它可能用了這些陸製製品，我們未來應該要怎麼做？因為有很多案例，包括現在的無人機，還有很多的國防武器裝備，甚至未來我們在DIU上面可以讓國內外企業參與我們的一些國防產業發展，這就更可能會有類似的情形不斷發生，我們有什麼樣的作為？我只要知道部長有什麼樣的作為。"],["顧部長立雄：我個人的看法，以我過去也是法律相關背景，我認為我們應該要在驗收程序上面加強策進，這個要結合政風單位，也要結合法律單位，一起進行相關的驗收程序，從採購室開始就要進行採購的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這部分其實從過去到現在都有，當我們提出質疑的時候，這些單位也都很認真地保證應該都沒有問題，可是最後發現就是有問題，當我們凍結預算的時候、我們事先預警的時候，還是被強勢通過各項的預算。剛剛王召委也特別提到，很高興他發現到這個問題，也就是我們很多案子是減價驗收，當你做的品質不夠好，或者品質有瑕疵、或者有一些違規，甚至不符合我們軍種作戰需求的時候，我們都是減價驗收，它的樣態當然非常多，我們只想知道可以怎麼做。部長請在這裡告訴我們，現在不斷、不斷地發生，以你在法律專業的背景情況之下，未來怎麼樣防止？剛剛說的那些本來就有了，在我們的程序、體制上都有，一旦發現以後，我們怎麼做？因為你就是換掉而已啊！目前是換掉而已，不然就停權，停權後他又換一家公司，還是繼續標啊！"],["顧部長立雄：如果停權之後，他換了一家公司，以我個人的立場，我認為我們應該要做一個詳細的查核，如果他有這樣的一個狀況。"],["馬委員文君：部長，顯然沒辦法查核，因為我剛剛唸了幾十件、十幾件這樣被停權的部分，簡單來說，因為時間的關係，部長可不可以在合約上面定的清清楚楚，包括罰則還有應該接受什麼條件的懲罰？有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我是國防採購室主任，謝謝委員指導，我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的，摘要地跟委員報告。有關於廠商的部分，不管他們之間的關係是怎麼樣，我們依據相關的規定，廠商的基本資格包括設定登記的證明，還有納稅證明，這都是標準的規定，我們去審認，他們之間的關係當然只是一個……"],["馬委員文君：好，如果要講到這樣，我們就來講重點，我們一直只希望要個結果，可是你一直針對過去的案子，如果你還要再擦脂抹粉，我們現在來看。今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司，我們也沒有意見，他可以設立很多樣的相關公司，都沒有問題，可是他的公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣，都在這個地方，甚至上次要修我們車子的時候，在那個二樓，請告訴我，怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車？還有他媽媽在大陸進口以後，我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明，就等同它的產地證明，我們是這樣收受的，我今天只是要知道在不斷、不斷發生的情況之下，你應該要有什麼樣的作為？因為顯然是沒有用的，或者甚至有人在包庇，我只想要請教部長，未來這部分要如何杜絕？如果你沒有辦法杜絕，甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式，你只是開愈多的窗口、愈多可能的漏洞，讓大家進到我們的國防產業，有沒有一個基本的防杜作為？就法律面來看。"],["顧部長立雄：就法律面來看，我想以剛剛委員所指教的，譬如這些新成立的公司，它的地址是一樣的，我認為這就很可疑，就這個部分的話，我們應該在查核上面就要審慎，甚至讓它不符合資格標，我想這部分應該要來做。所以從採購合約規範一開始，一直到最後驗收的程序，我想我們都有很多要以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間，我會好好地逐一檢視，我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣的一個責任。"],["馬委員文君：就未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分，請給我們詳細的書面報告，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，因為時間的關係，今天我們主要討論的是DIU的部分，我想請教，因為我們提到未來這個小組要優先導入無人機跟人工智慧，現在也剛剛成立，可能我們還不是很明確它的整體作為，可是至少我們知道它要優先導入無人機跟人工智慧，現在我想要請教，民間的創新科技可以提升防衛的力量，是否可以舉例一下？除了AI很籠統的說法以外，有沒有什麼比較具體的作法？比如說，我們覺得現在的民間……因為我們現在已經編了五、六百億的預算，可能要採購無人機，我不知道這個預算金額是不是正確……"],["顧部長立雄：那個是軍用商規的部分……"],["馬委員文君：就至少五、六百億嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：嗯。"],["馬委員文君：其實我們跟美方採購的也高達一百多億，都是非常高的金額，目前軍用商規有沒有什麼特別突出的？比中科院還要好？因為中科院研發了這麼長的時間，經費至少也耗費了一百多億以上，可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興科技的創新技術比這些還要好，是不是可以舉例一下？因為你們要花那麼多錢啊！現在已經要引進了，也認為這個很好，是不是可以舉例，在無人機上面，民間科技有什麼樣的創新作法比我們現在還要好？"],["顧部長立雄：就分工來講，因為現在中科院比較focus在三、四級的無人機上，日後要結合我們作戰需求相關所需的這些，特別是偵打一體的無人載具，我想我們已經有相當的一些……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係……"],["顧部長立雄：但是我覺得不適合公開的去講哪些……"],["馬委員文君：無人機的相關技術都非常公開透明，全世界都在發展無人機，它只是不斷的在精進，我們之前看到有很多應用在最近的俄烏戰爭上面，它有一個成功的效果，當然後續還是發現它可能在GPS被影響、干擾以後沒有辦法很精準地做到位。","我現在只是要請教，剛剛一直講這個是創新科技，你們要讓民間進來，而中科院其實已經做出劍翔，它是有監偵跟攻擊，騰雲也是攻擊，還有銳鳶，之前還有很多像是紅雀，其實我們有非常多包括偵監和攻擊的，並不是沒有，可是現在民間的創新技術到底是什麼？可以比我們原來這些更好？應該要具體的說一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我們運用的無人機，如同您剛剛講的騰雲，它是高高空的無人機，至於銳鳶則是海軍在用的，紅雀三現在還沒有經過測評，我想相關的這些，包括剛剛提到我們買的300或600的彈簧刀，或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的偵打一體無人機，還是水面的無人艦艇，甚至有可能是水下無人載具等等這些相關技術，在整個運用無人機相關的AI技術，包括影像識別、目標定位、防撞避碰、自動航路規劃、火力分配等等，這都有各種……"],["馬委員文君：部長……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我最後只講一句話，從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們，無人機的需求是非常非常大的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們認同，我們很早之前就非常關注無人機，也認為這是必要的發展，我現在只是想知道，我們編了那麼多的預算，如果我們連五、六百億軍用商規，包括跟美軍購得的加起來可能高達八百億以上，我們剛剛念到的這些，針對剛剛部長說的功能、性能，中科院已經花了非常高額的預算研發出相關的成果，中科院花這麼多都還不如人意，民間的力量或者他們的創新科技都還可以高於中科院？剛剛林林總總念的這些，我們想知道民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技，可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來的還要好？因為時間的關係，麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料，這部分我們可能還會再持續討論。","部長，無人機的預算被凍結，如果今天我們有這些創新的想法，DIU也要成立了，目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都比較過時，可能它也不符我們的需求，現在我們各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停？讓它好的進來，你們有AI的技術引進或者是其他，因為民間顯然已經有了，你們才會認為它比中科院的還要好嘛！是不是可以……"],["顧部長立雄：我們需要扶植民間自我產能的提升，我覺得這個案還是有效，還是請委員都能夠支持，如果我們不提升他們的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我不是不支持民間的量能，而是現在已經有一些創新的科技，如果它可以直接加進來，我們就不會先買過時的，以後還要再買新的，這樣對我們來說，在預算有限的情況之下，其實我們只要讓中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們無人機的優勢到底在哪裡，甚至比俄烏戰爭有實戰經驗的還要好，我們去買這些不是更好嗎？這部分是我在這裡特別提出來的，部長是不是可以考量？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們支持所有無人機採購的相關預算，既然你們有新的科技創新，包括剛剛的AI以人為本，會控制它不去傷害人……這不是我們能控制的，我們並不曉得現在的科技或未來的科技會怎麼延伸，可是就現在務實面來看，我們就講現在就好了，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：請部長再提供相關的資訊，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我還要一個資料，我們上一次有提到快奇專案，我要的不是你們採購的過程，而是關於那個無人艇，為什麼人家可以用兩百萬、六百萬做出來，我們卻需要六千萬？這個部分希望可以清楚的給我們所有委員會，甚至我們所有的委員，讓我們可以知道詳細的部分，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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215.449, \"end\": 240.131, \"text\": \"這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個易坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 215.449, \"end\": 215.69, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 215.69, \"end\": 215.91, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 215.91, \"end\": 216.11, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 216.11, \"end\": 216.53, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"輸\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 216.53, \"end\": 216.731, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 216.731, \"end\": 216.951, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 216.951, \"end\": 217.171, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 217.171, \"end\": 217.291, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 217.291, \"end\": 217.411, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 217.411, \"end\": 217.671, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 1029.645, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1029.645, \"end\": 1029.925, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1029.925, \"end\": 1030.025, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1030.025, \"end\": 1030.045, \"score\": 0.052}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1030.045, \"end\": 1030.205, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1030.205, \"end\": 1030.565, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1030.565, \"end\": 1030.685, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1030.685, \"end\": 1030.825, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1030.825, \"end\": 1031.126, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 1031.126, \"end\": 1031.306, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 1031.306, \"end\": 1031.326, \"score\": 0.211}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 1032.086, \"end\": 1032.106, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 1032.106, \"end\": 1032.126, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1055.891, \"end\": 1055.911, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1055.911, \"end\": 1056.051, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1056.051, \"end\": 1056.231, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 1056.231, \"end\": 1056.251, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1056.251, \"end\": 1056.351, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1056.351, \"end\": 1056.371, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 1085.971, \"end\": 1086.553, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 1086.553, \"end\": 1086.573, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,369 --> 00:00:19,365\n市委馬委員部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有\n\n2\n00:00:21,567 --> 00:00:41,101\n許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件\n\n3\n00:00:41,801 --> 00:00:47,625\n不只太陽能、不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說得非常大聲定的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦\n\n4\n00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:08,520\n法定人數不足\n\n5\n00:01:25,106 --> 00:01:42,935\n車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場\n\n6\n00:01:43,875 --> 00:01:43,915\n馬文君\n\n7\n00:02:01,260 --> 00:02:02,742\n對於這些行程記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下\n\n8\n00:02:15,492 --> 00:02:18,394\n就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案\n\n9\n00:02:31,385 --> 00:02:56,280\n那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸製的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬\n\n10\n00:02:57,813 --> 00:03:02,058\n就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了\n\n11\n00:03:05,407 --> 00:03:34,004\n那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的\n\n12\n00:03:35,449 --> 00:04:00,131\n這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個易坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些\n\n13\n00:04:01,272 --> 00:04:01,432\n馬文君\n\n14\n00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:20,240\n馬文君\n\n15\n00:04:34,045 --> 00:04:34,325\n跟委員報告\n\n16\n00:04:55,525 --> 00:05:14,771\n就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品\n\n17\n00:05:18,012 --> 00:05:28,735\n我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道\n\n18\n00:05:43,803 --> 00:06:06,669\n部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序\n\n19\n00:06:07,449 --> 00:06:15,794\n那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分呢也要進行這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候\n\n20\n00:06:32,182 --> 00:06:57,075\n還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生\n\n21\n00:07:02,678 --> 00:07:23,343\n以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊\n\n22\n00:07:25,691 --> 00:07:42,141\n部長如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分\n\n23\n00:07:43,666 --> 00:07:57,296\n簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚\n\n24\n00:07:58,137 --> 00:08:23,276\n報告委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個\n\n25\n00:08:24,597 --> 00:08:29,240\n如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓\n\n26\n00:08:54,253 --> 00:09:00,137\n請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇\n\n27\n00:09:24,313 --> 00:09:44,479\n我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為\n\n28\n00:09:46,132 --> 00:10:04,104\n就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標\n\n29\n00:10:04,844 --> 00:10:17,093\n所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間我會來好好地來同意檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好\n\n30\n00:10:30,442 --> 00:10:36,286\n另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確它的整體的作為可是至少我們知道說它優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧那現在\n\n31\n00:10:55,977 --> 00:11:11,965\n我想要請教民間的創新科技它可以提升防衛的力量是否可以舉例一下除了AI很籠統的說法以外有沒有什麼比較具體的說法的做法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分\n\n32\n00:11:21,409 --> 00:11:21,549\n中科院研發了\n\n33\n00:11:38,930 --> 00:12:05,735\n這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了一百多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好\n\n34\n00:12:08,411 --> 00:12:23,614\n現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要\n\n35\n00:12:24,736 --> 00:12:38,751\n結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是增大一體的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合\n\n36\n00:12:41,894 --> 00:12:46,918\n公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在\n\n37\n00:12:57,985 --> 00:13:15,675\n之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以\n\n38\n00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:24,300\n中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有那個監偵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖\n\n39\n00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,142\n我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部分您剛剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這一個無人機那至於這些類言的是海軍在用的那\n\n40\n00:14:08,004 --> 00:14:26,545\n紅卷山現在還沒經過測評那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧道或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇\n\n41\n00:14:28,067 --> 00:14:47,487\n那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們\n\n42\n00:14:50,646 --> 00:15:02,034\n無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來其實可能高達八百億以上\n\n43\n00:15:11,101 --> 00:15:14,564\n現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果那中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以\n\n44\n00:15:30,658 --> 00:15:38,020\n高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為\n\n45\n00:15:50,743 --> 00:16:17,222\n部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎\n\n46\n00:16:19,744 --> 00:16:22,927\n我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能\n\n47\n00:16:37,139 --> 00:16:37,179\n馬文君\n\n48\n00:16:52,614 --> 00:17:11,326\n我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比二無戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量\n\n49\n00:17:12,086 --> 00:17:12,126\n馬文君\n\n50\n00:17:35,891 --> 00:17:36,371\n請部長再提供相關的資訊\n\n51\n00:18:05,971 --> 00:18:06,573\n馬文君\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5369\t19365\t市委馬委員部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有\n21567\t41101\t許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件\n41801\t47625\t不只太陽能、不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說得非常大聲定的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦\n68300\t68520\t法定人數不足\n85106\t102935\t車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場\n103875\t103915\t馬文君\n121260\t122742\t對於這些行程記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下\n135492\t138394\t就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案\n151385\t176280\t那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸製的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬\n177813\t182058\t就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了\n185407\t214004\t那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的\n215449\t240131\t這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個易坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些\n241272\t241432\t馬文君\n260200\t260240\t馬文君\n274045\t274325\t跟委員報告\n295525\t314771\t就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品\n318012\t328735\t我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道\n343803\t366669\t部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序\n367449\t375794\t那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分呢也要進行這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候\n392182\t417075\t還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生\n422678\t443343\t以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊\n445691\t462141\t部長如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分\n463666\t477296\t簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚\n478137\t503276\t報告委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個\n504597\t509240\t如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓\n534253\t540137\t請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇\n564313\t584479\t我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為\n586132\t604104\t就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標\n604844\t617093\t所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間我會來好好地來同意檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好 那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好\n630442\t636286\t另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確它的整體的作為可是至少我們知道說它優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧那現在\n655977\t671965\t我想要請教民間的創新科技它可以提升防衛的力量是否可以舉例一下除了AI很籠統的說法以外有沒有什麼比較具體的說法的做法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分\n681409\t681549\t中科院研發了\n698930\t725735\t這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了一百多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好\n728411\t743614\t現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要\n744736\t758751\t結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是增大一體的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合\n761894\t766918\t公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在\n777985\t795675\t之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以\n800956\t804300\t中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有那個監偵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖\n819400\t822142\t我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部分您剛剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這一個無人機那至於這些類言的是海軍在用的那\n848004\t866545\t紅卷山現在還沒經過測評那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧道或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇\n868067\t887487\t那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們\n890646\t902034\t無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來其實可能高達八百億以上\n911101\t914564\t現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果那中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以\n930658\t938020\t高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為\n950743\t977222\t部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎\n979744\t982927\t我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能\n997139\t997179\t馬文君\n1012614\t1031326\t我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比二無戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量\n1032086\t1032126\t馬文君\n1055891\t1056371\t請部長再提供相關的資訊\n1085971\t1086573\t馬文君\n","txt":"市委馬委員部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有\n許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件\n不只太陽能、不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說得非常大聲定的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦\n法定人數不足\n車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場\n馬文君\n對於這些行程記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下\n就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案\n那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸製的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬\n就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了\n那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的\n這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個易坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些\n馬文君\n馬文君\n跟委員報告\n就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品\n我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道\n部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序\n那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分呢也要進行這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候\n還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生\n以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊\n部長如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分\n簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚\n報告委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個\n如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓\n請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇\n我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為\n就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標\n所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間我會來好好地來同意檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好 那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好\n另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確它的整體的作為可是至少我們知道說它優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧那現在\n我想要請教民間的創新科技它可以提升防衛的力量是否可以舉例一下除了AI很籠統的說法以外有沒有什麼比較具體的說法的做法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分\n中科院研發了\n這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了一百多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好\n現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要\n結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是增大一體的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合\n公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在\n之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以\n中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有那個監偵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖\n我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部分您剛剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這一個無人機那至於這些類言的是海軍在用的那\n紅卷山現在還沒經過測評那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧道或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇\n那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們\n無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來其實可能高達八百億以上\n現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果那中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以\n高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為\n部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎\n我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能\n馬文君\n我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比二無戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量\n馬文君\n請部長再提供相關的資訊\n馬文君\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.369 --> 00:19.365\n市委馬委員部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有\n\n00:21.567 --> 00:41.101\n許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件\n\n00:41.801 --> 00:47.625\n不只太陽能、不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說得非常大聲定的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦\n\n01:08.300 --> 01:08.520\n法定人數不足\n\n01:25.106 --> 01:42.935\n車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場\n\n01:43.875 --> 01:43.915\n馬文君\n\n02:01.260 --> 02:02.742\n對於這些行程記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下\n\n02:15.492 --> 02:18.394\n就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案\n\n02:31.385 --> 02:56.280\n那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸製的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬\n\n02:57.813 --> 03:02.058\n就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了\n\n03:05.407 --> 03:34.004\n那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的\n\n03:35.449 --> 04:00.131\n這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個易坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些\n\n04:01.272 --> 04:01.432\n馬文君\n\n04:20.200 --> 04:20.240\n馬文君\n\n04:34.045 --> 04:34.325\n跟委員報告\n\n04:55.525 --> 05:14.771\n就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品\n\n05:18.012 --> 05:28.735\n我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道\n\n05:43.803 --> 06:06.669\n部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序\n\n06:07.449 --> 06:15.794\n那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分呢也要進行這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候\n\n06:32.182 --> 06:57.075\n還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生\n\n07:02.678 --> 07:23.343\n以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊\n\n07:25.691 --> 07:42.141\n部長如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分\n\n07:43.666 --> 07:57.296\n簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚\n\n07:58.137 --> 08:23.276\n報告委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個\n\n08:24.597 --> 08:29.240\n如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓\n\n08:54.253 --> 09:00.137\n請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇\n\n09:24.313 --> 09:44.479\n我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為\n\n09:46.132 --> 10:04.104\n就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標\n\n10:04.844 --> 10:17.093\n所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間我會來好好地來同意檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好\n\n10:30.442 --> 10:36.286\n另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確它的整體的作為可是至少我們知道說它優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧那現在\n\n10:55.977 --> 11:11.965\n我想要請教民間的創新科技它可以提升防衛的力量是否可以舉例一下除了AI很籠統的說法以外有沒有什麼比較具體的說法的做法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分\n\n11:21.409 --> 11:21.549\n中科院研發了\n\n11:38.930 --> 12:05.735\n這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了一百多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好\n\n12:08.411 --> 12:23.614\n現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要\n\n12:24.736 --> 12:38.751\n結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是增大一體的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合\n\n12:41.894 --> 12:46.918\n公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在\n\n12:57.985 --> 13:15.675\n之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以\n\n13:20.956 --> 13:24.300\n中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有那個監偵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖\n\n13:39.400 --> 13:42.142\n我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部分您剛剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這一個無人機那至於這些類言的是海軍在用的那\n\n14:08.004 --> 14:26.545\n紅卷山現在還沒經過測評那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧道或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇\n\n14:28.067 --> 14:47.487\n那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們\n\n14:50.646 --> 15:02.034\n無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來其實可能高達八百億以上\n\n15:11.101 --> 15:14.564\n現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果那中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以\n\n15:30.658 --> 15:38.020\n高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為\n\n15:50.743 --> 16:17.222\n部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎\n\n16:19.744 --> 16:22.927\n我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能\n\n16:37.139 --> 16:37.179\n馬文君\n\n16:52.614 --> 17:11.326\n我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比二無戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量\n\n17:12.086 --> 17:12.126\n馬文君\n\n17:35.891 --> 17:36.371\n請部長再提供相關的資訊\n\n18:05.971 --> 18:06.573\n馬文君\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.369,"end":19.365,"text":"市委馬委員部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有"},{"start":21.567,"end":41.101,"text":"許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件"},{"start":41.801,"end":47.625,"text":"不只太陽能、不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說得非常大聲定的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦"},{"start":68.3,"end":68.52,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":85.106,"end":102.935,"text":"車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場"},{"start":103.875,"end":103.915,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":121.26,"end":122.742,"text":"對於這些行程記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下"},{"start":135.492,"end":138.394,"text":"就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案"},{"start":151.385,"end":176.28,"text":"那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸製的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬"},{"start":177.813,"end":182.058,"text":"就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了"},{"start":185.407,"end":214.004,"text":"那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的"},{"start":215.449,"end":240.131,"text":"這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個易坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些"},{"start":241.272,"end":241.432,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":260.2,"end":260.24,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":274.045,"end":274.325,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":295.525,"end":314.771,"text":"就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品"},{"start":318.012,"end":328.735,"text":"我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道"},{"start":343.803,"end":366.669,"text":"部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序"},{"start":367.449,"end":375.794,"text":"那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分呢也要進行這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候"},{"start":392.182,"end":417.075,"text":"還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生"},{"start":422.678,"end":443.343,"text":"以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊"},{"start":445.691,"end":462.141,"text":"部長如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分"},{"start":463.666,"end":477.296,"text":"簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚"},{"start":478.137,"end":503.276,"text":"報告委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個"},{"start":504.597,"end":509.24,"text":"如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓"},{"start":534.253,"end":540.137,"text":"請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇"},{"start":564.313,"end":584.479,"text":"我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為"},{"start":586.132,"end":604.104,"text":"就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標"},{"start":604.844,"end":617.093,"text":"所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間我會來好好地來同意檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好 那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好"},{"start":630.442,"end":636.286,"text":"另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確它的整體的作為可是至少我們知道說它優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧那現在"},{"start":655.977,"end":671.965,"text":"我想要請教民間的創新科技它可以提升防衛的力量是否可以舉例一下除了AI很籠統的說法以外有沒有什麼比較具體的說法的做法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分"},{"start":681.409,"end":681.549,"text":"中科院研發了"},{"start":698.93,"end":725.735,"text":"這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了一百多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好"},{"start":728.411,"end":743.614,"text":"現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要"},{"start":744.736,"end":758.751,"text":"結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是增大一體的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合"},{"start":761.894,"end":766.918,"text":"公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在"},{"start":777.985,"end":795.675,"text":"之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以"},{"start":800.956,"end":804.3,"text":"中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有那個監偵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖"},{"start":819.4,"end":822.142,"text":"我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部分您剛剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這一個無人機那至於這些類言的是海軍在用的那"},{"start":848.004,"end":866.545,"text":"紅卷山現在還沒經過測評那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧道或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇"},{"start":868.067,"end":887.487,"text":"那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們"},{"start":890.646,"end":902.034,"text":"無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來其實可能高達八百億以上"},{"start":911.101,"end":914.564,"text":"現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果那中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以"},{"start":930.658,"end":938.02,"text":"高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為"},{"start":950.743,"end":977.222,"text":"部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎"},{"start":979.744,"end":982.927,"text":"我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能"},{"start":997.139,"end":997.179,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":1012.614,"end":1031.326,"text":"我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比二無戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量"},{"start":1032.086,"end":1032.126,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":1055.891,"end":1056.371,"text":"請部長再提供相關的資訊"},{"start":1085.971,"end":1086.573,"text":"馬文君"}]}}}}