{"id":154624,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8baa4ecbd2697e5e6ca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fcce2844124dec03b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:39:27 - 10:49:36","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:39:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:49:36+08:00","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時39分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委還有次長跟董事長。"],["主席：好，請陳主委、連次長還有曾董事長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：范雲委員好。"],["范委員雲：不知道為什麼，時間很快就輪到我，還好我坐在這個委員會裡面，我的PPT好像還沒有來得及。我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核安、關於核廢料的部分，但是我想重點再提醒大家一下，剛剛陳主委已經講了，全世界沒有一個國家像我們一樣，用了核電廠40年，到現在都沒有乾式貯存場，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：主委，那你可不可以簡單講一句話，為什麼乾式貯存場一直都拖延，沒有辦法依照進度，主要是為什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：過去主要是新北市政府跟台電……"],["范委員雲：對，新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該朱縣長吧！"],["范委員雲：朱市長到侯市長嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：所以到現在都沒有辦法處理，那中期貯存場我們有沒有解方？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在也沒有。"],["范委員雲：現在沒解方。全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的終期解方──最終處置場？"],["陳主任委員東陽：最終處置場，我知道大概只有芬蘭現在才在試營運階段。"],["范委員雲：這是高階的，就是燃料棒。而低階核廢料，全世界有沒有一個國家像臺灣一直放在蘭嶼，一直對不起蘭嶼人？"],["陳主任委員東陽：低階核廢料全世界就比較多了，臺灣現在也碰到困難……"],["范委員雲：有碰到困難，核廢料我們已經放在蘭嶼那邊幾年了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：從71年到現在。"],["范委員雲：我們請台電董事長過來。請問台電當時有告訴過蘭嶼人說核廢料要放在蘭嶼嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：這個已經有過相關的補償，我想也都查過了，是沒有講清楚。"],["范委員雲：好，那本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼？"],["曾董事長文生：我們有在其他的地方找低階核廢料的貯存場，因為現在低階廢料貯存場在法律裡面規定要地方辦公投。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["曾董事長文生：那個公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行。"],["范委員雲：因為這樣子，我們一直對不起蘭嶼人，我這樣講對吧？好，董事長，所以關於低階核廢料，所有提案的或是如果覺得我們今天有這個彈性選項的立委，我覺得都應該要先去跟蘭嶼人下跪，因為到現在為止我們一直對不起蘭嶼人，就是因為台電的方案也無法執行，至於無法執行的理由為何，低階核廢料的最終處置場在101年詢問過金門縣政府，這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下，如果你要投票支持的話，金門縣政府說歉難配合辦理，連公投都不願意辦理；臺東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項。這個都是公文，所以到現在為止為什麼無法遷出？至少有金門縣政府、臺東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦。","我們看一下現在我們偉大的國民黨總召，聽說今天為什麼我們教文要排這個，是國民黨總召傅崐萁要求排的，沒有一個我們教文委員的提案，都是非教文委員提案要研議，我們的國民黨總召擔任花蓮縣長的時候，他說高階核廢料最終處置場連探勘都不能夠在花蓮探勘，因為當時的專業說只有花蓮跟哪裡有花崗岩？"],["曾董事長文生：有host rock，就是在秀林，還有……"],["范委員雲：秀林，當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈，而且他還說，他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭，所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料的探勘都不行；2019年花蓮縣長徐榛蔚也說，要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意，這是2019年；結果2021年花蓮縣長徐榛蔚居然支持核四續建，強調說，現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡，這不就是一個最好的例子嗎？花蓮這一對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的政治人物，只要不放在他的縣市政府，放在蘭嶼、放在別的地方都沒有問題，所以我覺得這就是我們現在核廢料的問題，從低階到高階，這麼的不負責任，遇到自己的地方政府，而且這幾位都是藍營的，支持的也是以藍營立委為主，反對設置核廢料最終處置場從低階到高階的也都是以藍營的地方政府為主。所以剛剛每個發言的藍營立委都在講缺電，有哪一位認真的面對核廢料，告訴我們從低階到高階核廢料的解方？每一個被認為相關的縣市政府，連公投都拒絕，我們的國民黨總召傅崐萁說，連探勘都不尊重原住民，那請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎？國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委，柯志恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召，為什麼花蓮不行，臺東蘭嶼行，好嗎？這是核廢料問題，這無法解決的話，我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子孫。","時間也差不多了，我想請問核安會主委，從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：高階核廢料目前估計是2055年。"],["范委員雲：不是，我的意思是說，核廢料最終處置場如果真的找到的話，要埋放多少年才會安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：10萬年。"],["范委員雲：10萬年！各位有沒有聽到，就算我們找到一個地方，要放10萬年才能夠完全讓它對人體傷害的毒性消失，所以對臺灣來講，我們到底有什麼條件處理這個部分？我們都還沒有講，請問主委，您再講一次，我問過你了，就是核三廠以及核一、核二，當時蓋的時候，知道他們都可能位於地震帶嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春……"],["范委員雲：完全不知道有地震帶，所以今天就算要做安全的審查也非常有可能不過關，剛剛經濟部次長無法回答，我想最後再問台電董事長，這個已經用了40年的核電廠，就算你要讓它有安全的運轉的話，你估計可能要花費多少成本代價？因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題，你想一下是億還是兆或什麼單位，有沒有辦法估計？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億。"],["范委員雲：千億以上……"],["曾董事長文生：剛才有提到日本有些機組延役的狀況，用臺幣來算的話是千億。"],["范委員雲：千億以上，光是一個廠可能代價就要千億以上，對不對？要維持它的安全嘛！因為用了40年的核電廠……"],["曾董事長文生：它有好多東西要做……"],["范委員雲：很多東西要弄，請問台電董事長，這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：看它做多久發電的度數去除，我要這樣講，跟委員報告，做研議相關的工作，它要支出的成本是一件事，我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西，在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事，所以我們才一直在講，我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇。"],["范委員雲：最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災，日本國土有百分之八受到放射性的污染，到現在，我們國民黨也反對過核食，所以我不知道為什麼國民黨總召可以做這麼不負責任的決定，只准自己花蓮人反對探勘，卻讓蘭嶼人繼續承擔低階的核廢料，所以拜託國民黨的委員們回去問你們的總召，這麼的不負責任，也請我們教文的召委做出負責任的決定，每一位委員要審查條文的時候，請先告訴我們核廢料怎麼處理好嗎？我反對我們在這些問題解決前，就這麼的不負責任要進入條文的審查，我認為這整個社會完全沒有瞭解到地質條件、地緣政治，敏感的臺灣有充分的原因不選擇核能，國民黨不顧核安風險和核廢料，到底想把臺灣帶往哪個方向？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請各位回座。"],["吳委員沛憶：我有程序問題！"],["主席：等一下先聽完我講的這個部分。本席之前有特別提到，在羅廷瑋委員質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘，因為羅廷瑋委員前面的翁曉玲沒有到，羅廷瑋委員不在現場，所以照過去來說，我就用唱名3次的方法一路過去，造成各位委員趕至不及，所以剛剛跟議事人員充分溝通完之後，我作成以下決定，在休息5分鐘完之後，我們由羅廷瑋委員繼續，葉元之、陳培瑜、吳沛憶依序質詢。","我們現在先休息5分鐘的時間。謝謝。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會，接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 77.803, \"end\": 78.303, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 78.303, \"end\": 78.463, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 78.463, \"end\": 78.583, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 78.583, \"end\": 78.683, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 78.683, \"end\": 78.763, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 78.763, \"end\": 79.184, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 79.184, \"end\": 80.184, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 80.184, \"end\": 81.926, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 81.926, \"end\": 82.226, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 82.226, \"end\": 82.366, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 82.366, \"end\": 82.526, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 82.526, \"end\": 82.686, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 82.686, \"end\": 83.767, \"score\": 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0.842}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 115.084, \"end\": 115.424, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 115.424, \"end\": 115.825, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 115.825, \"end\": 116.005, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 116.005, \"end\": 116.165, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 116.165, \"end\": 116.365, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 116.365, \"end\": 116.525, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 116.525, \"end\": 116.805, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 116.805, \"end\": 117.005, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 117.005, \"end\": 117.586, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 117.586, \"end\": 118.046, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 118.046, \"end\": 118.546, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 118.546, \"end\": 118.687, 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{\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 585.981, \"end\": 586.001, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,335 --> 00:00:05,076\n事由：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具\n\n2\n00:00:18,769 --> 00:00:23,312\n不知道為什麼剛剛那個因為時間很快就輪到我還好我坐在這個委員會裡面那我的PPT好像他們還沒有來得及那我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核胺關於核廢料的部分那但是呢我想再重點再提醒大家一下\n\n3\n00:00:40,702 --> 00:00:49,592\n當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?\n\n4\n00:01:01,472 --> 00:01:25,208\n那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方\n\n5\n00:01:26,738 --> 00:01:53,412\n現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?\n\n6\n00:01:54,704 --> 00:02:03,990\n第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣藍譽我們已經放在那邊幾年了?核廢料?71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過藍譽人說核廢料要放在藍譽嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:33,114\n這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼\n\n8\n00:02:36,004 --> 00:02:57,214\n我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧\n\n9\n00:03:01,186 --> 00:03:01,286\n案案案案\n\n10\n00:03:22,765 --> 00:03:47,000\n2011年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦\n\n11\n00:03:47,841 --> 00:03:48,181\n當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是\n\n12\n00:04:17,998 --> 00:04:23,741\n當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔\n\n13\n00:04:45,672 --> 00:04:58,260\n結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的\n\n14\n00:05:12,648 --> 00:05:12,668\n案。\n\n15\n00:05:27,773 --> 00:05:44,106\n案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修\n\n16\n00:05:55,410 --> 00:06:17,241\n被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民,請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?\n\n17\n00:06:18,021 --> 00:06:42,708\n花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,\n\n18\n00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,541\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具«核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案。\n\n19\n00:07:07,168 --> 00:07:09,311\n所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一、核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎\n\n20\n00:07:23,535 --> 00:07:38,783\n當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長\n\n21\n00:07:40,344 --> 00:07:53,473\n這個安全齁這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁就算你要讓它有安全的物品產的話你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼一個單位有沒有辦法估計\n\n22\n00:08:02,573 --> 00:08:31,550\n我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎\n\n23\n00:08:32,984 --> 00:08:54,370\n看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講\n\n24\n00:08:55,490 --> 00:09:15,621\n我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反\n\n25\n00:09:15,981 --> 00:09:16,061\n案。」案。\n\n26\n00:09:45,981 --> 00:09:46,001\n案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4335\t5076\t事由：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具\n18769\t23312\t不知道為什麼剛剛那個因為時間很快就輪到我還好我坐在這個委員會裡面那我的PPT好像他們還沒有來得及那我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核胺關於核廢料的部分那但是呢我想再重點再提醒大家一下\n40702\t49592\t當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?\n61472\t85208\t那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方\n86738\t113412\t現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?\n114704\t123990\t第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣藍譽我們已經放在那邊幾年了?核廢料?71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過藍譽人說核廢料要放在藍譽嗎?\n143476\t153114\t這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼\n156004\t177214\t我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧\n181186\t181286\t案案案案\n202765\t227000\t2011年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦\n227841\t228181\t當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是\n257998\t263741\t當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔\n285672\t298260\t結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的\n312648\t312668\t案 。\n327773\t344106\t案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修\n355410\t377241\t被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民,請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?\n378021\t402708\t花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,\n405720\t408541\t三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案。\n427168\t429311\t所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一、核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎\n443535\t458783\t當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長\n460344\t473473\t這個安全齁這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁就算你要讓它有安全的物品產的話你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼一個單位有沒有辦法估計\n482573\t511550\t我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎\n512984\t534370\t看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講\n535490\t555621\t我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反\n555981\t556061\t案。」案。\n585981\t586001\t案 。\n","txt":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具\n不知道為什麼剛剛那個因為時間很快就輪到我還好我坐在這個委員會裡面那我的PPT好像他們還沒有來得及那我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核胺關於核廢料的部分那但是呢我想再重點再提醒大家一下\n當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?\n那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方\n現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?\n第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣藍譽我們已經放在那邊幾年了?核廢料?71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過藍譽人說核廢料要放在藍譽嗎?\n這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼\n我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧\n案案案案\n2011年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦\n當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是\n當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔\n結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的\n案 。\n案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修\n被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民,請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?\n花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案。\n所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一、核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎\n當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長\n這個安全齁這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁就算你要讓它有安全的物品產的話你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼一個單位有沒有辦法估計\n我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎\n看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講\n我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反\n案。」案。\n案 。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.335 --> 00:05.076\n事由：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具\n\n00:18.769 --> 00:23.312\n不知道為什麼剛剛那個因為時間很快就輪到我還好我坐在這個委員會裡面那我的PPT好像他們還沒有來得及那我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核胺關於核廢料的部分那但是呢我想再重點再提醒大家一下\n\n00:40.702 --> 00:49.592\n當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?\n\n01:01.472 --> 01:25.208\n那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方\n\n01:26.738 --> 01:53.412\n現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?\n\n01:54.704 --> 02:03.990\n第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣藍譽我們已經放在那邊幾年了?核廢料?71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過藍譽人說核廢料要放在藍譽嗎?\n\n02:23.476 --> 02:33.114\n這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼\n\n02:36.004 --> 02:57.214\n我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧\n\n03:01.186 --> 03:01.286\n案案案案\n\n03:22.765 --> 03:47.000\n2011年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦\n\n03:47.841 --> 03:48.181\n當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是\n\n04:17.998 --> 04:23.741\n當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔\n\n04:45.672 --> 04:58.260\n結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的\n\n05:12.648 --> 05:12.668\n案。\n\n05:27.773 --> 05:44.106\n案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修\n\n05:55.410 --> 06:17.241\n被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民,請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?\n\n06:18.021 --> 06:42.708\n花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,\n\n06:45.720 --> 06:48.541\n三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具«核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案。\n\n07:07.168 --> 07:09.311\n所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一、核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎\n\n07:23.535 --> 07:38.783\n當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長\n\n07:40.344 --> 07:53.473\n這個安全齁這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁就算你要讓它有安全的物品產的話你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼一個單位有沒有辦法估計\n\n08:02.573 --> 08:31.550\n我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎\n\n08:32.984 --> 08:54.370\n看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講\n\n08:55.490 --> 09:15.621\n我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反\n\n09:15.981 --> 09:16.061\n案。」案。\n\n09:45.981 --> 09:46.001\n案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.335,"end":5.076,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具"},{"start":18.769,"end":23.312,"text":"不知道為什麼剛剛那個因為時間很快就輪到我還好我坐在這個委員會裡面那我的PPT好像他們還沒有來得及那我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核胺關於核廢料的部分那但是呢我想再重點再提醒大家一下"},{"start":40.702,"end":49.592,"text":"當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?"},{"start":61.472,"end":85.208,"text":"那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方"},{"start":86.738,"end":113.412,"text":"現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?"},{"start":114.704,"end":123.99,"text":"第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣藍譽我們已經放在那邊幾年了?核廢料?71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過藍譽人說核廢料要放在藍譽嗎?"},{"start":143.476,"end":153.114,"text":"這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼"},{"start":156.004,"end":177.214,"text":"我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧"},{"start":181.186,"end":181.286,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":202.765,"end":227,"text":"2011年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦"},{"start":227.841,"end":228.181,"text":"當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是"},{"start":257.998,"end":263.741,"text":"當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔"},{"start":285.672,"end":298.26,"text":"結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的"},{"start":312.648,"end":312.668,"text":"案 。"},{"start":327.773,"end":344.106,"text":"案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修"},{"start":355.41,"end":377.241,"text":"被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民,請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?"},{"start":378.021,"end":402.708,"text":"花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,"},{"start":405.72,"end":408.541,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":427.168,"end":429.311,"text":"所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一、核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎"},{"start":443.535,"end":458.783,"text":"當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長"},{"start":460.344,"end":473.473,"text":"這個安全齁這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁就算你要讓它有安全的物品產的話你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼一個單位有沒有辦法估計"},{"start":482.573,"end":511.55,"text":"我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎"},{"start":512.984,"end":534.37,"text":"看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講"},{"start":535.49,"end":555.621,"text":"我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反"},{"start":555.981,"end":556.061,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":585.981,"end":586.001,"text":"案 。"}]}}}}