{"id":154627,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8a7d3e5e08835d443a9bb3959728069a07bbd1653412844861d5aae74ee2210ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:49:16 - 11:04:16","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:49:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:04:16+08:00","duration":900,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時49分）我們先請國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸勤部參謀長。"],["主席：請顧部長、陸軍參謀長還有陸勤部參謀長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品，包含軟體、硬體服務，都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資通訊產品，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。剛才我們看到我們馬文君委員、召委，他也提到了貼牌的紀錄器，可以看到行車紀錄器，可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦，然後包含華為產品，還有我們的行車紀錄器，也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的。","我們來看一下這一張照片，剛才馬文君委員也有提出，我想請問一下，右邊上角紅色的標籤是什麼？"],["盧次長建中：報告委員，這是我們資訊產品的管制標籤。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤，也就是說，這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有。我們在淘寶上面可以看到，淘寶上面賣這一臺一模一樣的規格，只要臺幣310塊，而且它還是中國大陸製作的，所以三百多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨，還被廠商坑錢了？這一點你們要去思考看看喔！","再來請問一下部長，這一個消息被披露之後，請問圖上的這一批現在去哪裡了？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我是陸勤部參謀長，這一批的部分，我們上禮拜五之後，再依據國防部的清查，這一具的部分不在我的列管裡面。因為我上一次的時候……近期委員辦公室主要是對我們110年的購案總共買了……"],["徐委員巧芯：那這個去哪了？"],["劉參謀長青勳：這個基本上要請……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為上面有貼管制標籤，剛剛你們也說了，所以是國防部的財產啊！我隨便一個人可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎？那不就變成違法行為了嗎？我現在問這一批去哪了？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為這一批不是我們陸勤部所採購的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那誰採購的呢？整個國防……"],["盧次長建中：委員好，我是聯六次長，針對我們上禮拜委員在媒體上所揭露這個行車紀錄器的這個部分，我們也做了一個全軍性的清查，目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車紀錄器。"],["徐委員巧芯：是這一臺嗎？"],["盧次長建中：有沒有這一臺我要……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在先問這一臺。"],["盧次長建中：報告委員，有沒有這一臺我們要回去再查證。"],["徐委員巧芯：已經都多少天了，你們還沒有查到？"],["盧次長建中：我們針對大陸目前所製的這些行車紀錄器是已經有先下架了，這邊要先跟委員報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少臺下架了？"],["盧次長建中：目前下架……我們還有一些沒有查完的是內建在裡面的，這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：目前下架了多少臺？"],["盧次長建中：目前下架了大概是800部。"],["徐委員巧芯：800部啊？"],["盧次長建中：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那這個還沒找到？"],["盧次長建中：我跟委員報告，這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊，但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部，我們要回去查證。"],["徐委員巧芯：要回去查證，請給我答案好嗎？"],["盧次長建中：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我們買的……通常啦，我不去講說是跟我們辦公室聯絡的這一臺，通常我們買大概是兩千多塊錢，通常的價格是這樣。結果人家淘寶上賣310塊，我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎？我們還用了中國貨，然後又被廠商坑錢，這是很不得了的事情欸！","再來你們要去清查喔，上面那張的這一款，是不是在消息披露之後，有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰術輪車上使用？可不可以去搜尋這個訊息？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有查過了？"],["陳參謀長建義：這個行車紀錄器並不是配附在這部……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，它是領了、用了，領了、用了，我知道，但請問有沒有這一臺？它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用，你們有沒有查？"],["陳參謀長建義：誠如剛剛聯六次長跟委員說明的，只要是陸製的被我們查到，目前是全面下架。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有沒有查嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：委員說的……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個。"],["陳參謀長建義：這個是不是在我們下架的裡面，我們現在要求證之後……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是……對，然後你要去查什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：不會去轉用。"],["徐委員巧芯：這一批如果還沒有被查到，有沒有被移到輕型戰術輪車上，用領用的方式去處理？這個你要去查，可以嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：可以就好。回到剛才講的這個互暢公司，這個是互暢公司110年的時候，總計畫將近300萬的統籌案。我們看一下它官網裡面寫的跟行車紀錄器是沒有什麼關係的。","再下一張，其實剛才馬召委已經告訴大家了，他們彼此之間的關係是由義坤來進口，許張月桃他們是母子的關係，報關進口之後供貨給互暢，互暢再投標給陸勤部，然後來做這個統籌案。","我們再看下一張，我問部長，這兩個互暢跟義坤金屬工業公司，看起來像是MIT行車紀錄器的製造廠商嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這應該是一般的……沒有像是一個製造工廠的樣態。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們買的時候，我們都不用查廠？"],["劉參謀長青勳：跟您報告，這一批是我們當初在110年所採購的，總共是1,321個……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。"],["劉參謀長青勳：這一塊的話，當初基本上對廠商資格的限定並沒有說它必須要自製。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有要自製？"],["劉參謀長青勳：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你要如何檢查它是不是MIT或MIC？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們有廠商的資格，還有相關的一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是他說的算？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們有去查察，因為當初的時候，這1,300個……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有查廠？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們當初的時候有這個履約的小組，最後……那些統統都有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們去這裡看過，也去過那裡看過？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為它沒有在那邊製造，它沒有在這個場地製造。"],["徐委員巧芯：它沒有在這個場地製造，那你知道它在哪裡製造嗎？"],["劉參謀長青勳：他當初交貨的地點有我們臺灣還有馬來西亞。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺灣？是臺灣的哪一家，所以他的前面是誰交貨給他？誰交貨給互暢，互暢再賣給你們？你們這兩千多萬的行車紀錄器，你們有沒有問？"],["劉參謀長青勳：這個是300萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啦！"],["劉參謀長青勳：這次我們買的……這個議題裡面的這1,321部是300萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你有沒有問嘛！我就問說，你今天跟互暢買有沒有這件事？"],["劉參謀長青勳：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：你也知道了，不是由互暢製作的嘛！他是進口商、是貿易商嘛！"],["劉參謀長青勳：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：那是誰賣給他的？你有在意這件事嗎？有去查嗎？如果你沒有去查，你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的？就不知道了嘛！","我時間真的很不夠，來，我問一下，你們知不知道這家互暢廠商跟我們剛剛講的義坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單紀錄？"],["劉參謀長青勳：基本上我們都知道這一塊，但是就政府採購法……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們是不是被列黑名單？"],["劉參謀長青勳：它有這個所謂的廠商資格限制，對於不合格廠商有3個月會……"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，被列黑名單紀錄的，我們國防部來跟他們採購，你覺得合理嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經說了，如果我們查到的這個結果，比如說像有地址，或者是有這些剛剛講的母子或什麼關係的話，我想我下去會來檢討我們整個採購……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們會檢討？我給你看這件事情多嚴重。"],["顧部長立雄：因為這個案子……"],["徐委員巧芯：採購的時候，採購拒絕往來生效日是110年的 4月8號，看得到嗎？右邊陸軍後勤指揮部是什麼時候採購的？本案於110年4月8號下訂，你把它列為拒絕廠商黑名單的同時，你跟人家下訂，有這種道理？有這種事情？你們都不知道？回答一下好不好？所有人都不講話是什麼意思啊？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們這個這個案子是在這個之前就已經得標了。"],["徐委員巧芯：得標了沒有錯啊！但是它已經被列為拒絕廠商了，你們沒有任何處理的方式嗎？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為它後來是在4月7號的時候，開始在拒絕往來的名單裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！"],["劉參謀長青勳：在它之前的時候，我們就已經完成公開招標了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有解約的一些相關方式嗎？不可能吧！不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法。我說它4月8號被列為黑名單，你們的報告單上面寫說，在4月8號下訂，這跟國人交代得過去嗎？部長，您是新任的部長，我不跟你追究，但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查，而且很嚴重？"],["顧部長立雄：我下去會來瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：是吧，這是很嚴重的事情吧！都被列拒絕廠商了，然後你還當天跟他下訂，代表你們整個國防部裡面，前後你們是搞不清楚狀況，或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人在貪贓枉法，但是這件事情非常地奇怪。"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個案子既然在110年那個時候，我想我們就把這個案子調出來，重新檢視一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來，我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候，我們得到的、來的、送給我們看的實品是長這樣，跟我們剛剛來的那一臺不一樣。來，請問為什麼給我們看的所有包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤？"],["劉參謀長青勳：針對這一臺，我們在禮拜一的晚上1800到委員辦公室說明的時候，因為這一臺基本上目前是一個備品，並沒有說……它是有標籤在盒子上面。"],["徐委員巧芯：盒子上？不用貼在上面？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為目前這一臺……"],["徐委員巧芯：別臺都要貼在上面，這一臺不用？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為它在它的盒子裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：盒子裡面？在哪裡？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為你沒有拍到那一段，後來你提醒我們的時候，我們去檢查的時候確實是有的。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問一下，為什麼前面的要貼在行車紀錄器上，而這個不用？道理在哪裡？"],["劉參謀長青勳：確實單位可能沒有把它貼上去，但是我們後來去檢查單位，這一個拿去跟委員辦公室……"],["徐委員巧芯：貼在盒子上幹嘛？"],["劉參謀長青勳：在它那個盒子上面的地方，我們會做調整，因為我們是整個盒子拿過去……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們都會調整？你的意思是你們都會調整？最後拜託召委再給我1分鐘時間，你們所給我的這份清單上，關於當初你們的計畫清單，就是最後決標的這一份，因為我時間不夠，很抱歉，我沒有放在上面，你們有給我一份這個行車紀錄器的計畫清單，但是我也有拿到一份舊的，就是還沒有決標時的計畫清單，上面寫得很清楚，本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安（含資安）疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購，廠商不得為大陸地區廠商、第三地區含陸資成分廠商及在臺陸資廠商，經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開，都不可以使用，但是你們最後決標是怎麼寫的，你知道嗎？我念給你聽，你們最後決標的時候寫說，本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等……可以終止契約，惟非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件，如電池、電源、線材等應無違顧慮，且產地限制取得不易，故不在此限。我最後詢問一下顧部長，合約上寫這樣，你們最後的清單上寫這樣，你覺得合理嗎？如果我剛剛講的不清楚的話，需要我再念一次嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛聽起來應該是說它沒有涉及資通訊產品的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以意思是說，這裡面的配件，包括電池、電源、線材可以不在此限，意思就是使用中國大陸製的零件的行車紀錄器是可以的，請問是可以的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：問題是現在的標案應該都一律禁止大陸製的產品。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！但你們上面是這樣寫啊！部長，我需要拿給你看嗎？這是你們給我的資料。"],["顧部長立雄：這可能是之前的。"],["徐委員巧芯：110年嘛！對不對？所以你們要去清查後續情況，因為後來規定改了，改了之後，你們還繼續用嘛！所以你們應該要清查，我不管這是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣，但既然規定已經改了，是不是過往的你們也要全面清查，看看有沒有類似的情況，如果有的話就要下架，部長，你同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我去清查一下，包括委員剛剛講的這個110年的個案，另外就是看什麼時候改的這些相關採購規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，部長，我再跟你講一次，我會跟你講更清楚一點。在原本還沒有決標的計畫清單上面，很明確寫到說不可以，因為是屬於資安疑慮範疇，所以不可以使用大陸相關的用品。但是到了最後決標的時候，那幾條規定被拿掉了，部長，如果有需要，事後我可以給你資料，因為今天時間不夠，我時間已經到了，超過很久了，部長，給你多少時間，你可以完成全部的清查？給我們一個時間吧！"],["顧部長立雄：你是說……"],["徐委員巧芯：整個行車紀錄器的事情，包含馬召委剛剛問的，包含剛剛提到的管制清單，包含我剛剛所說的一切，你們需要多久時間可以查明真相？至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧！"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我們會確實把案情釐清和詳查，是不是兩個禮拜跟你報告？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，兩個禮拜，謝謝。"],["陳參謀長建義：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。剛剛提供給徐巧芯委員的那一臺沒有查，是因為你們只查行政車輛，沒有查戰術車輛，相關的規定，陸製產品很早就有規定了，沒關係，這個部分你們到時候一併查完後再……"],["陳參謀長建義：基本上是全查……"],["主席：好，沒關係，到時候再提供相關的資料好了。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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0.878}, {\"word\": \"僱\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 728.095, \"end\": 728.315, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 728.315, \"end\": 728.615, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 728.615, \"end\": 728.935, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 728.935, \"end\": 729.195, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 729.195, \"end\": 729.436, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"士\", \"start\": 729.436, \"end\": 730.236, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 730.236, \"end\": 730.436, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 730.436, \"end\": 730.636, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 730.636, \"end\": 731.297, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 731.297, \"end\": 731.577, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 731.577, \"end\": 731.717, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 731.717, \"end\": 732.097, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, 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{\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 876.389, \"end\": 876.409, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 881.294, \"end\": 881.314, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"巧\", \"start\": 881.314, \"end\": 881.514, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"芯\", \"start\": 881.514, \"end\": 881.534, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 881.534, \"end\": 881.554, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:11,739\n我們先請那個國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長請顧部長還有陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長徐委員好部長好2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧\n\n2\n00:00:31,237 --> 00:00:51,248\n剛才我們看到的是馬文君委員趙偉提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的\n\n3\n00:00:52,449 --> 00:00:52,769\n管制的標籤\n\n4\n00:01:05,163 --> 00:01:23,207\n報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的\n\n5\n00:01:27,268 --> 00:01:42,889\n所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了\n\n6\n00:01:46,189 --> 00:01:46,409\n那這個去拿了嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:08,331 --> 00:02:22,029\n因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的\n\n8\n00:02:23,208 --> 00:02:50,865\n那誰採購的呢?整個國防部?委員好,我是連六次長。針對我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分,我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查。那目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器。這是這一台嗎?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員,有沒有這一台我們要回去再查證。已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到?\n\n9\n00:02:51,645 --> 00:03:09,361\n我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到\n\n10\n00:03:12,634 --> 00:03:31,491\n我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣\n\n11\n00:03:32,091 --> 00:03:58,258\n啊結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情欸再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息\n\n12\n00:04:00,801 --> 00:04:23,383\n報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎\n\n13\n00:04:25,406 --> 00:04:47,094\n委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後跟委員說的對然後你要去查什麼這一批這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁\n\n14\n00:04:47,574 --> 00:05:13,575\n好那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章、岳陶他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍\n\n15\n00:05:17,398 --> 00:05:18,359\n所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉\n\n16\n00:05:48,066 --> 00:05:51,368\n這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本上產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製\n\n17\n00:06:03,777 --> 00:06:22,511\n那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們的廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查一查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過\n\n18\n00:06:25,233 --> 00:06:39,526\n因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在哪裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?\n\n19\n00:06:49,148 --> 00:07:16,130\n這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的\n\n20\n00:07:17,677 --> 00:07:43,774\n就不知道了嘛好我時間真的很不夠來我問一下你們知不知道這家護唱廠商跟我們剛剛講的益坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單記錄就基本上我們都知道這一塊但是就政府採購他們是不是被列黑名單他有這個所謂的廠商資格限制對不合格廠方他有三個月或不合格的時間部長被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎\n\n21\n00:07:45,403 --> 00:08:11,157\n跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎\n\n22\n00:08:12,406 --> 00:08:32,767\n右邊陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道\n\n23\n00:08:35,714 --> 00:08:35,814\n不是嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:57,796 --> 00:09:18,824\n在他之前的時候我們就已經完成公開報告了你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代得過去嗎?部長\n\n25\n00:09:22,075 --> 00:09:47,873\n這個您是新任的部長,我不跟您追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重。我下去回來了解。是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧。你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定,代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪。\n\n26\n00:09:49,226 --> 00:10:09,580\n我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候,那我想我們就把這個案子調出來,重新檢視一下。好,再來,我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候,我們得到的,來的,送給我們看的食品是長這樣,跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣。來,請問為什麼給我們看的所有的,包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤?\n\n27\n00:10:12,876 --> 00:10:28,073\n這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上要把東東到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台的話它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用\n\n28\n00:10:28,593 --> 00:10:30,896\n請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?\n\n29\n00:10:45,316 --> 00:10:46,437\n我最後要講一下你們所給我的\n\n30\n00:11:12,535 --> 00:11:33,664\n這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單\n\n31\n00:11:34,844 --> 00:11:56,989\n他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用\n\n32\n00:11:57,609 --> 00:12:21,262\n但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密故慮且產地\n\n33\n00:12:26,825 --> 00:12:48,038\n我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛講不清楚的話我剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材\n\n34\n00:12:49,019 --> 00:12:52,562\n對阿但你們上面是這樣寫阿部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料\n\n35\n00:13:09,458 --> 00:13:34,016\n這之前啊?還是之前?110年嘛!對不對?所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?\n\n36\n00:13:35,522 --> 00:13:49,321\n我去清查一下,剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案,然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定。部長,我再跟你講一次,我再跟你講更清楚一點,在原本的\n\n37\n00:13:51,323 --> 00:14:18,360\n另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧\n\n38\n00:14:20,031 --> 00:14:36,409\n您是說...所有整件事情,整個行車記錄器的事情,包含馬昭偉剛剛問的,包含剛剛那個管制清單,包含這個,包含是我剛剛所說的一切,你們需要多久的時間可以查出來,查明真相,至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧。馬昭偉,呃,我們...\n\n39\n00:14:41,294 --> 00:14:41,554\n徐巧芯委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t11739\t我們先請那個國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長請顧部長還有陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長徐委員好部長好2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧\n31237\t51248\t剛才我們看到的是馬文君委員趙偉提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的\n52449\t52769\t管制的標籤\n65163\t83207\t報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的\n87268\t102889\t所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了\n106189\t106409\t那這個去拿了嗎?\n128331\t142029\t因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的\n143208\t170865\t那誰採購的呢?整個國防部?委員好,我是連六次長。針對我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分,我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查。那目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器。這是這一台嗎?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員,有沒有這一台我們要回去再查證。已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到?\n171645\t189361\t我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到\n192634\t211491\t我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣\n212091\t238258\t啊結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情欸再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息\n240801\t263383\t報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎\n265406\t287094\t委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後跟委員說的對然後你要去查什麼這一批這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁\n287574\t313575\t好那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章、岳陶他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍\n317398\t318359\t所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉\n348066\t351368\t這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本上產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製\n363777\t382511\t那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們的廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查一查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過\n385233\t399526\t因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在哪裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?\n409148\t436130\t這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好 你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的\n437677\t463774\t就不知道了嘛好我時間真的很不夠來我問一下你們知不知道這家護唱廠商跟我們剛剛講的益坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單記錄就基本上我們都知道這一塊但是就政府採購他們是不是被列黑名單他有這個所謂的廠商資格限制對不合格廠方他有三個月或不合格的時間部長被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎\n465403\t491157\t跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎\n492406\t512767\t右邊陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道\n515714\t515814\t不是嗎?\n537796\t558824\t在他之前的時候我們就已經完成公開報告了你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代得過去嗎?部長\n562075\t587873\t這個您是新任的部長,我不跟您追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重。我下去回來了解。是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧。你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定,代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪。\n589226\t609580\t我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候,那我想我們就把這個案子調出來,重新檢視一下。好,再來,我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候,我們得到的,來的,送給我們看的食品是長這樣,跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣。來,請問為什麼給我們看的所有的,包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤?\n612876\t628073\t這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上要把東東到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台的話它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用\n628593\t630896\t請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?\n645316\t646437\t我最後要講一下你們所給我的\n672535\t693664\t這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單\n694844\t716989\t他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用\n717609\t741262\t但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密故慮且產地\n746825\t768038\t我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛講不清楚的話我剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材\n769019\t772562\t對阿但你們上面是這樣寫阿部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料\n789458\t814016\t這之前啊?還是之前?110年嘛!對不對?所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?\n815522\t829321\t我去清查一下,剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案,然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定。部長,我再跟你講一次,我再跟你講更清楚一點,在原本的\n831323\t858360\t另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧\n860031\t876409\t您是說...所有整件事情,整個行車記錄器的事情,包含馬昭偉剛剛問的,包含剛剛那個管制清單,包含這個,包含是我剛剛所說的一切,你們需要多久的時間可以查出來,查明真相,至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧。馬昭偉,呃,我們...\n881294\t881554\t徐巧芯委員\n","txt":"我們先請那個國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長請顧部長還有陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長徐委員好部長好2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧\n剛才我們看到的是馬文君委員趙偉提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的\n管制的標籤\n報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的\n所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了\n那這個去拿了嗎?\n因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的\n那誰採購的呢?整個國防部?委員好,我是連六次長。針對我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分,我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查。那目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器。這是這一台嗎?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員,有沒有這一台我們要回去再查證。已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到?\n我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到\n我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣\n啊結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情欸再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息\n報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎\n委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後跟委員說的對然後你要去查什麼這一批這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁\n好那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章、岳陶他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍\n所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉\n這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本上產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製\n那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們的廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查一查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過\n因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在哪裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?\n這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好 你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的\n就不知道了嘛好我時間真的很不夠來我問一下你們知不知道這家護唱廠商跟我們剛剛講的益坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單記錄就基本上我們都知道這一塊但是就政府採購他們是不是被列黑名單他有這個所謂的廠商資格限制對不合格廠方他有三個月或不合格的時間部長被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎\n跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎\n右邊陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道\n不是嗎?\n在他之前的時候我們就已經完成公開報告了你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代得過去嗎?部長\n這個您是新任的部長,我不跟您追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重。我下去回來了解。是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧。你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定,代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪。\n我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候,那我想我們就把這個案子調出來,重新檢視一下。好,再來,我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候,我們得到的,來的,送給我們看的食品是長這樣,跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣。來,請問為什麼給我們看的所有的,包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤?\n這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上要把東東到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台的話它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用\n請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?\n我最後要講一下你們所給我的\n這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單\n他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用\n但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密故慮且產地\n我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛講不清楚的話我剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材\n對阿但你們上面是這樣寫阿部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料\n這之前啊?還是之前?110年嘛!對不對?所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?\n我去清查一下,剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案,然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定。部長,我再跟你講一次,我再跟你講更清楚一點,在原本的\n另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧\n您是說...所有整件事情,整個行車記錄器的事情,包含馬昭偉剛剛問的,包含剛剛那個管制清單,包含這個,包含是我剛剛所說的一切,你們需要多久的時間可以查出來,查明真相,至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧。馬昭偉,呃,我們...\n徐巧芯委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:11.739\n我們先請那個國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長請顧部長還有陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長徐委員好部長好2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧\n\n00:31.237 --> 00:51.248\n剛才我們看到的是馬文君委員趙偉提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的\n\n00:52.449 --> 00:52.769\n管制的標籤\n\n01:05.163 --> 01:23.207\n報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的\n\n01:27.268 --> 01:42.889\n所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了\n\n01:46.189 --> 01:46.409\n那這個去拿了嗎?\n\n02:08.331 --> 02:22.029\n因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的\n\n02:23.208 --> 02:50.865\n那誰採購的呢?整個國防部?委員好,我是連六次長。針對我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分,我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查。那目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器。這是這一台嗎?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員,有沒有這一台我們要回去再查證。已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到?\n\n02:51.645 --> 03:09.361\n我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到\n\n03:12.634 --> 03:31.491\n我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣\n\n03:32.091 --> 03:58.258\n啊結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情欸再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息\n\n04:00.801 --> 04:23.383\n報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎\n\n04:25.406 --> 04:47.094\n委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後跟委員說的對然後你要去查什麼這一批這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁\n\n04:47.574 --> 05:13.575\n好那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章、岳陶他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍\n\n05:17.398 --> 05:18.359\n所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉\n\n05:48.066 --> 05:51.368\n這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本上產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製\n\n06:03.777 --> 06:22.511\n那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們的廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查一查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過\n\n06:25.233 --> 06:39.526\n因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在哪裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?\n\n06:49.148 --> 07:16.130\n這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的\n\n07:17.677 --> 07:43.774\n就不知道了嘛好我時間真的很不夠來我問一下你們知不知道這家護唱廠商跟我們剛剛講的益坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單記錄就基本上我們都知道這一塊但是就政府採購他們是不是被列黑名單他有這個所謂的廠商資格限制對不合格廠方他有三個月或不合格的時間部長被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎\n\n07:45.403 --> 08:11.157\n跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎\n\n08:12.406 --> 08:32.767\n右邊陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道\n\n08:35.714 --> 08:35.814\n不是嗎?\n\n08:57.796 --> 09:18.824\n在他之前的時候我們就已經完成公開報告了你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代得過去嗎?部長\n\n09:22.075 --> 09:47.873\n這個您是新任的部長,我不跟您追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重。我下去回來了解。是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧。你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定,代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪。\n\n09:49.226 --> 10:09.580\n我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候,那我想我們就把這個案子調出來,重新檢視一下。好,再來,我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候,我們得到的,來的,送給我們看的食品是長這樣,跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣。來,請問為什麼給我們看的所有的,包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤?\n\n10:12.876 --> 10:28.073\n這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上要把東東到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台的話它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用\n\n10:28.593 --> 10:30.896\n請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?\n\n10:45.316 --> 10:46.437\n我最後要講一下你們所給我的\n\n11:12.535 --> 11:33.664\n這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單\n\n11:34.844 --> 11:56.989\n他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用\n\n11:57.609 --> 12:21.262\n但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密故慮且產地\n\n12:26.825 --> 12:48.038\n我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛講不清楚的話我剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材\n\n12:49.019 --> 12:52.562\n對阿但你們上面是這樣寫阿部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料\n\n13:09.458 --> 13:34.016\n這之前啊?還是之前?110年嘛!對不對?所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?\n\n13:35.522 --> 13:49.321\n我去清查一下,剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案,然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定。部長,我再跟你講一次,我再跟你講更清楚一點,在原本的\n\n13:51.323 --> 14:18.360\n另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧\n\n14:20.031 --> 14:36.409\n您是說...所有整件事情,整個行車記錄器的事情,包含馬昭偉剛剛問的,包含剛剛那個管制清單,包含這個,包含是我剛剛所說的一切,你們需要多久的時間可以查出來,查明真相,至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧。馬昭偉,呃,我們...\n\n14:41.294 --> 14:41.554\n徐巧芯委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":11.739,"text":"我們先請那個國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長請顧部長還有陸軍參謀長、陸情部參謀長徐委員好部長好2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧"},{"start":31.237,"end":51.248,"text":"剛才我們看到的是馬文君委員趙偉提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的"},{"start":52.449,"end":52.769,"text":"管制的標籤"},{"start":65.163,"end":83.207,"text":"報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的"},{"start":87.268,"end":102.889,"text":"所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了"},{"start":106.189,"end":106.409,"text":"那這個去拿了嗎?"},{"start":128.331,"end":142.029,"text":"因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的"},{"start":143.208,"end":170.865,"text":"那誰採購的呢?整個國防部?委員好,我是連六次長。針對我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分,我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查。那目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器。這是這一台嗎?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員,有沒有這一台我們要回去再查證。已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到?"},{"start":171.645,"end":189.361,"text":"我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到"},{"start":192.634,"end":211.491,"text":"我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣"},{"start":212.091,"end":238.258,"text":"啊結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情欸再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息"},{"start":240.801,"end":263.383,"text":"報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎"},{"start":265.406,"end":287.094,"text":"委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後跟委員說的對然後你要去查什麼這一批這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁"},{"start":287.574,"end":313.575,"text":"好那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章、岳陶他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍"},{"start":317.398,"end":318.359,"text":"所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉"},{"start":348.066,"end":351.368,"text":"這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本上產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製"},{"start":363.777,"end":382.511,"text":"那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們的廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查一查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過"},{"start":385.233,"end":399.526,"text":"因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在哪裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?"},{"start":409.148,"end":436.13,"text":"這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好 你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的"},{"start":437.677,"end":463.774,"text":"就不知道了嘛好我時間真的很不夠來我問一下你們知不知道這家護唱廠商跟我們剛剛講的益坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單記錄就基本上我們都知道這一塊但是就政府採購他們是不是被列黑名單他有這個所謂的廠商資格限制對不合格廠方他有三個月或不合格的時間部長被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":465.403,"end":491.157,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎"},{"start":492.406,"end":512.767,"text":"右邊陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道"},{"start":515.714,"end":515.814,"text":"不是嗎?"},{"start":537.796,"end":558.824,"text":"在他之前的時候我們就已經完成公開報告了你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代得過去嗎?部長"},{"start":562.075,"end":587.873,"text":"這個您是新任的部長,我不跟您追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重。我下去回來了解。是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧。你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定,代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪。"},{"start":589.226,"end":609.58,"text":"我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候,那我想我們就把這個案子調出來,重新檢視一下。好,再來,我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候,我們得到的,來的,送給我們看的食品是長這樣,跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣。來,請問為什麼給我們看的所有的,包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤?"},{"start":612.876,"end":628.073,"text":"這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上要把東東到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台的話它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用"},{"start":628.593,"end":630.896,"text":"請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?"},{"start":645.316,"end":646.437,"text":"我最後要講一下你們所給我的"},{"start":672.535,"end":693.664,"text":"這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單"},{"start":694.844,"end":716.989,"text":"他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用"},{"start":717.609,"end":741.262,"text":"但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密故慮且產地"},{"start":746.825,"end":768.038,"text":"我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛講不清楚的話我剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材"},{"start":769.019,"end":772.562,"text":"對阿但你們上面是這樣寫阿部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料"},{"start":789.458,"end":814.016,"text":"這之前啊?還是之前?110年嘛!對不對?所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?"},{"start":815.522,"end":829.321,"text":"我去清查一下,剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案,然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定。部長,我再跟你講一次,我再跟你講更清楚一點,在原本的"},{"start":831.323,"end":858.36,"text":"另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧"},{"start":860.031,"end":876.409,"text":"您是說...所有整件事情,整個行車記錄器的事情,包含馬昭偉剛剛問的,包含剛剛那個管制清單,包含這個,包含是我剛剛所說的一切,你們需要多久的時間可以查出來,查明真相,至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧。馬昭偉,呃,我們..."},{"start":881.294,"end":881.554,"text":"徐巧芯委員"}]}}}}