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\"基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 121.07, \"end\": 121.25, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 121.25, \"end\": 121.55, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 121.55, \"end\": 121.77, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 121.77, \"end\": 122.051, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 122.051, \"end\": 122.851, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 122.851, \"end\": 123.511, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 123.511, \"end\": 123.732, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 123.732, \"end\": 123.912, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 123.912, \"end\": 124.092, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 124.092, \"end\": 124.252, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 124.252, \"end\": 124.732, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 124.732, \"end\": 124.912, \"score\": 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\"end\": 137.079, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 137.079, \"end\": 137.579, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"契\", \"start\": 137.579, \"end\": 137.899, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 137.899, \"end\": 137.979, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 137.979, \"end\": 138.519, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 138.519, \"end\": 138.539, \"score\": 0.972}]}, {\"start\": 139.707, \"end\": 155.175, \"text\": \"但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 139.707, \"end\": 139.887, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 139.887, \"end\": 140.027, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 140.027, \"end\": 140.167, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 140.167, \"end\": 141.028, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"初\", 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{\"start\": 524.847, \"end\": 525.708, \"text\": \"所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 524.847, \"end\": 525.087, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 525.087, \"end\": 525.267, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 525.267, \"end\": 525.427, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"拒\", \"start\": 525.427, \"end\": 525.547, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 525.547, \"end\": 525.587, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 525.587, \"end\": 525.667, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 525.667, \"end\": 525.687, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 525.687, \"end\": 525.708, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}]}, {\"start\": 551.243, \"end\": 571.915, \"text\": \"因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 551.243, \"end\": 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0.942}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 619.35, \"end\": 620.211, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 620.211, \"end\": 620.711, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 620.711, \"end\": 620.891, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 620.891, \"end\": 621.091, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 621.091, \"end\": 621.251, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 621.251, \"end\": 621.491, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 621.491, \"end\": 621.511, \"score\": 0.595}]}, {\"start\": 621.991, \"end\": 624.612, \"text\": \"其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 621.991, \"end\": 622.111, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 622.111, \"end\": 622.251, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 622.251, \"end\": 622.271, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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00:02:18,539\n基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定\n\n8\n00:02:19,707 --> 00:02:35,175\n但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案\n\n9\n00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:55,078\n負責事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方就簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中\n\n10\n00:02:55,838 --> 00:03:12,812\n我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範\n\n11\n00:03:15,314 --> 00:03:29,721\n所以財政部給他答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定\n\n12\n00:03:31,843 --> 00:03:59,986\n這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行\n\n13\n00:04:02,155 --> 00:04:26,888\n他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說依細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書\n\n14\n00:04:29,249 --> 00:04:52,755\n逐漸原告也就是大日公司在繫增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的繫增計畫書\n\n15\n00:04:55,316 --> 00:05:14,208\n也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎\n\n16\n00:05:21,380 --> 00:05:49,699\n報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善\n\n17\n00:05:50,219 --> 00:05:50,599\n林思銘\n\n18\n00:06:11,548 --> 00:06:25,127\n所以我現在對你這個附屬事業的定義我們聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾可能聽不懂什麼叫附屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個附屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說\n\n19\n00:06:26,633 --> 00:06:26,673\n林思銘議員\n\n20\n00:06:48,337 --> 00:07:10,682\n大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物,繫增徵件物完成後,批為商場,由被告取得所有權,且納入繫增105年委託營運契約的範圍之內,仍交由原告大日公司營運,事後續約時也將\n\n21\n00:07:13,763 --> 00:07:36,603\n也將他列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以\n\n22\n00:07:37,344 --> 00:08:00,099\n他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了\n\n23\n00:08:02,796 --> 00:08:32,216\n原來的停車場這種建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說繫增建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬增建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府\n\n24\n00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:43,183\n所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調\n\n25\n00:08:44,847 --> 00:08:45,708\n所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請\n\n26\n00:09:11,243 --> 00:09:31,915\n因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子\n\n27\n00:09:32,595 --> 00:09:53,133\n好那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下\n\n28\n00:09:57,385 --> 00:10:21,511\n包委員如果就時間序來看的話這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分\n\n29\n00:10:21,991 --> 00:10:24,612\n其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約\n\n30\n00:10:40,699 --> 00:11:00,205\n我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊\n\n31\n00:11:01,972 --> 00:11:02,432\n我們會努力的來做這個事情\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t9374\t進行詢答好 謝謝主席 我們請財政部我們的初三師師長\n17535\t33516\t市長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的\n34497\t50840\t最近最大、最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的履約的一個爭議我想這個案子一開始是大日公司與市政府的停車場的OT案\n51661\t69731\t一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二、三、四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議\n78711\t104038\t報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在他原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢他是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定\n104818\t107020\t市長,這個我大概了解,其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說\n121070\t138539\t基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定\n139707\t155175\t但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案\n156316\t175078\t負責事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方就簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中\n175838\t192812\t我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範\n195314\t209721\t所以財政部給他答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定\n211843\t239986\t這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行\n242155\t266888\t他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說依細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書\n269249\t292755\t逐漸原告也就是大日公司在繫增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的繫增計畫書\n295316\t314208\t也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎\n321380\t349699\t報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善\n350219\t350599\t林思銘\n371548\t385127\t所以我現在對你這個附屬事業的定義我們聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾可能聽不懂什麼叫附屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個附屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說\n386633\t386673\t林思銘議員\n408337\t430682\t大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物,繫增徵件物完成後,批為商場,由被告取得所有權,且納入繫增105年委託營運契約的範圍之內,仍交由原告大日公司營運,事後續約時也將\n433763\t456603\t也將他列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以\n457344\t480099\t他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了\n482796\t512216\t原來的停車場這種建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說繫增建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬增建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府\n513276\t523183\t所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調\n524847\t525708\t所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請\n551243\t571915\t因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子\n572595\t593133\t好 那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢 有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪 財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下\n597385\t621511\t包委員如果就時間序來看的話這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分\n621991\t624612\t其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約\n640699\t660205\t我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊\n661972\t662432\t我們會努力的來做這個事情\n","txt":"進行詢答好 謝謝主席 我們請財政部我們的初三師師長\n市長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的\n最近最大、最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的履約的一個爭議我想這個案子一開始是大日公司與市政府的停車場的OT案\n一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二、三、四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議\n報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在他原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢他是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定\n市長,這個我大概了解,其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說\n基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定\n但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案\n負責事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方就簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中\n我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範\n所以財政部給他答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定\n這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行\n他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說依細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書\n逐漸原告也就是大日公司在繫增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的繫增計畫書\n也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎\n報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善\n林思銘\n所以我現在對你這個附屬事業的定義我們聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾可能聽不懂什麼叫附屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個附屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說\n林思銘議員\n大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物,繫增徵件物完成後,批為商場,由被告取得所有權,且納入繫增105年委託營運契約的範圍之內,仍交由原告大日公司營運,事後續約時也將\n也將他列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以\n他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了\n原來的停車場這種建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說繫增建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬增建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府\n所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調\n所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請\n因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子\n好 那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢 有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪 財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下\n包委員如果就時間序來看的話這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分\n其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約\n我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊\n我們會努力的來做這個事情\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:09.374\n進行詢答好謝謝主席我們請財政部我們的初三師師長\n\n00:17.535 --> 00:33.516\n市長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的\n\n00:34.497 --> 00:50.840\n最近最大、最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的履約的一個爭議我想這個案子一開始是大日公司與市政府的停車場的OT案\n\n00:51.661 --> 01:09.731\n一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二、三、四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議\n\n01:18.711 --> 01:44.038\n報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在他原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢他是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定\n\n01:44.818 --> 01:47.020\n市長,這個我大概了解,其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說\n\n02:01.070 --> 02:18.539\n基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定\n\n02:19.707 --> 02:35.175\n但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案\n\n02:36.316 --> 02:55.078\n負責事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方就簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中\n\n02:55.838 --> 03:12.812\n我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範\n\n03:15.314 --> 03:29.721\n所以財政部給他答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定\n\n03:31.843 --> 03:59.986\n這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行\n\n04:02.155 --> 04:26.888\n他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說依細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書\n\n04:29.249 --> 04:52.755\n逐漸原告也就是大日公司在繫增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的繫增計畫書\n\n04:55.316 --> 05:14.208\n也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎\n\n05:21.380 --> 05:49.699\n報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善\n\n05:50.219 --> 05:50.599\n林思銘\n\n06:11.548 --> 06:25.127\n所以我現在對你這個附屬事業的定義我們聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾可能聽不懂什麼叫附屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個附屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說\n\n06:26.633 --> 06:26.673\n林思銘議員\n\n06:48.337 --> 07:10.682\n大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物,繫增徵件物完成後,批為商場,由被告取得所有權,且納入繫增105年委託營運契約的範圍之內,仍交由原告大日公司營運,事後續約時也將\n\n07:13.763 --> 07:36.603\n也將他列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以\n\n07:37.344 --> 08:00.099\n他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了\n\n08:02.796 --> 08:32.216\n原來的停車場這種建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說繫增建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬增建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府\n\n08:33.276 --> 08:43.183\n所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調\n\n08:44.847 --> 08:45.708\n所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請\n\n09:11.243 --> 09:31.915\n因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子\n\n09:32.595 --> 09:53.133\n好那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下\n\n09:57.385 --> 10:21.511\n包委員如果就時間序來看的話這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分\n\n10:21.991 --> 10:24.612\n其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約\n\n10:40.699 --> 11:00.205\n我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊\n\n11:01.972 --> 11:02.432\n我們會努力的來做這個事情\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":9.374,"text":"進行詢答好 謝謝主席 我們請財政部我們的初三師師長"},{"start":17.535,"end":33.516,"text":"市長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的"},{"start":34.497,"end":50.84,"text":"最近最大、最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的履約的一個爭議我想這個案子一開始是大日公司與市政府的停車場的OT案"},{"start":51.661,"end":69.731,"text":"一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二、三、四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議"},{"start":78.711,"end":104.038,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在他原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢他是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定"},{"start":104.818,"end":107.02,"text":"市長,這個我大概了解,其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說"},{"start":121.07,"end":138.539,"text":"基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定"},{"start":139.707,"end":155.175,"text":"但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案"},{"start":156.316,"end":175.078,"text":"負責事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方就簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中"},{"start":175.838,"end":192.812,"text":"我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範"},{"start":195.314,"end":209.721,"text":"所以財政部給他答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定"},{"start":211.843,"end":239.986,"text":"這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行"},{"start":242.155,"end":266.888,"text":"他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說依細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書"},{"start":269.249,"end":292.755,"text":"逐漸原告也就是大日公司在繫增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的繫增計畫書"},{"start":295.316,"end":314.208,"text":"也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎"},{"start":321.38,"end":349.699,"text":"報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善"},{"start":350.219,"end":350.599,"text":"林思銘"},{"start":371.548,"end":385.127,"text":"所以我現在對你這個附屬事業的定義我們聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾可能聽不懂什麼叫附屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個附屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說"},{"start":386.633,"end":386.673,"text":"林思銘議員"},{"start":408.337,"end":430.682,"text":"大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物,繫增徵件物完成後,批為商場,由被告取得所有權,且納入繫增105年委託營運契約的範圍之內,仍交由原告大日公司營運,事後續約時也將"},{"start":433.763,"end":456.603,"text":"也將他列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以"},{"start":457.344,"end":480.099,"text":"他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了"},{"start":482.796,"end":512.216,"text":"原來的停車場這種建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說繫增建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬增建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府"},{"start":513.276,"end":523.183,"text":"所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調"},{"start":524.847,"end":525.708,"text":"所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請"},{"start":551.243,"end":571.915,"text":"因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子"},{"start":572.595,"end":593.133,"text":"好 那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢 有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪 財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下"},{"start":597.385,"end":621.511,"text":"包委員如果就時間序來看的話這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分"},{"start":621.991,"end":624.612,"text":"其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約"},{"start":640.699,"end":660.205,"text":"我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊"},{"start":661.972,"end":662.432,"text":"我們會努力的來做這個事情"}]}}}}