{"id":154642,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f898e1de2ec5bababfa9bb3959728069a07bbd16534128448648780db23e8b7b075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:17:44 - 11:32:44","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:17:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:32:44+08:00","duration":900,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請顧部長及軍醫局蔡局長。"],["主席：請部長及軍醫局蔡局長。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好、局長好。其實在國防部的主管下，除了有很多的軍職人員以外，還有很多文職跟約聘僱人員，不管他的職務或身分，基於希望能有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場，坦白說，大家期待只要有勞動事實就可以實際實領，這也被認為是最低的底線，部長同不同意？"],["顧部長立雄：是，委員的指教應該是。"],["洪委員申翰：同意對吧！其實這段時間我一直收到陳情，在軍醫局底下其實有很多醫療人員，他可能不只是醫生或護理師，比方像是分析血液、尿液的醫檢師，負責Ｘ光的放射師，或者是藥師，他們也會有夜間輪班的需求，他們也要值夜班，所以他們的勞動事實非常明確。如果你是一個醫檢師，而你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的榮醫，或者是在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話，我們要恭喜，因為你可以拿到足額的報酬。但如果這些醫檢師是在軍醫院上班，很抱歉，他的報酬是無法足額領取的。部長，你看一下數字，如果是一個醫檢師值大夜班一個月25天，臺大的基數比較好，有1萬7,000元，部立醫院跟榮總是1萬2,000元，軍醫院也是1萬2,000元，但很慘的事情是軍醫院的醫檢師值大夜班，只要是夜班，夜班的費用就沒有辦法實領，他會被打折，甚至打到85折！賴清德總統說軍公教要加薪3%，但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%！而這種陋習我跟部長報告，其實已經超過10年了，為什麼會出現這個狀況？很簡單，因為我們軍醫下面醫管單位自己另設了一個夜班費請領方式，是用三節獎金來請領，不像剛才說的其他主管機關下面的醫院都可以按月來領取，依照績效獎金來領取。我們自己訂了一個用三節獎金領取，所以一年就3次、領3次，但問題是三節獎金有一個上限，所以只要值夜班的狀況超過這個上限，超過的部分就算你沒發生過！所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了2,000塊以上，這就是長年的狀況。我要問部長，你聽到這個狀況，我相信你也是第一次聽到，但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，是不是它有兩種，一個是夜班費、另外一個是醫勤的獎助金？"],["洪委員申翰：對，但我現在講的都是夜班費。"],["顧部長立雄：如果是夜班費的話，應該是他如果實際值班我們就足額發給，如果依照這樣子來發給的話，我想只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員發給要點的話，這個部分應該是可以足額發給的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你講到一個重點，國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會，我們現在是適用醫勤獎金的方式來發給，所以是用三節獎金來發放，所以就遇到三節獎金上限的問題，我們一直跟國防部要求，這是一個不合理的狀況，因為有很多的醫檢師公會都來陳情，明明該給他們的卻都沒有給他們，而且這不是現在短期喔，這已經搞10年了，但對不起，軍醫局不理就是不理、不理就是不理！所以我今天不得不在這個地方提出，部長在這邊、局長在這邊，我們要不要改變這個狀況？我覺得這是最基本的吧？"],["蔡局長建松：跟委員報告一下，因為我們這個醫勤獎金發放是經過行政院核定的，所以我們的醫勤獎金有一個上限，如果整個要修的話，就變成所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修。這個陳情其實我們不是不理，但是最近會有……"],["洪委員申翰：不要推給行政院。"],["蔡局長建松：不是，跟委員報告，最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院的業績、績效很好，所以才會到上限，如果沒有到上限，他其實都可以實領到。但是因為會超過上限，他的總額有個上限，所以大家才會覺得他的夜班費好像被排擠到了，其實……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，不是好像，就是啊！他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了，不是好像啊。"],["蔡局長建松：我們會按照委員的指導，以後我們福利金的計算方式會把夜班費優先計算，夜班費算完以後再來算其他……"],["洪委員申翰：局長很簡單嘛，我們就比照其他的醫院都是按月發放，不一定要把醫勤獎金搞到三節獎金才能發放嘛，每個月做多少很清楚，都可以看到眼前我就可以拿多少，沒有人要去多要，只是給他們應得的，每個月就按照……別人都可以做到，為什麼軍醫院做不到呢？"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，其實我們每個月計算、也是每個月在計算，並沒有說……"],["洪委員申翰：但是三節才能領一次，所以人家是算下來發現，這跟我每個月該領的不一樣、有出入，甚至可能少了2,000塊、每個月少2,000塊！"],["蔡局長建松：另外跟委員報告，其實我們非醫護人員、聘僱人員的總薪資都比其他醫院還高。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，局長，你這個態度是不對的嘛！"],["蔡局長建松：沒有，不是這個意思！"],["洪委員申翰：不是因為他今天待遇比別人高，待遇有沒有真的比別人高，這是另外一回事，你明明說要給人家的績效獎金、夜班費，講好的你就是沒有給嘛！"],["蔡局長建松：我們會按照……"],["洪委員申翰：這跟其他比別人高有什麼關係？"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，我們會按照您的指導，以後我們的醫勤獎金當中，夜班費都會單獨優先計算。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，第一個不是優先計算，我就問你，能不能夠承諾一定足額發放、按月足額發放？就像在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師可以受到一樣的待遇。"],["蔡局長建松：可以，這我們做得到。"],["洪委員申翰：可以嗎？這是可以承諾的事情？"],["蔡局長建松：是。"],["洪委員申翰：那多少時間可以把它改過來？兩個月？"],["蔡局長建松：我們現在已經在做了。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月可不可以把它改過來？"],["蔡局長建松：應該是可以。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月之後，我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到，沒有問題？"],["蔡局長建松：按月這個部分我們還要經由行政院，因為整個如果要修要一段時間。"],["洪委員申翰：你不要推給行政院，你們把方案拿出來，我們可以來跟行政院講，要他儘快核定，行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員夜班費吃掉的方法嗎？"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，我們會按照委員的指導，我們會每個月單獨來計算，也會跟行政院來做溝通。"],["洪委員申翰：可不可以每個月就直接發放？就像其他主管單位的醫院一樣，就比照嘛，這個這麼簡單的事情！"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，我們會跟行政院做這個溝通、希望每個月來發放，但是因為它牽涉到整體要修，我們還要一段時間。"],["洪委員申翰：那這樣好不好，一個月後給我方案、兩個月承諾把它改好，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長建松：我們儘快，是。"],["洪委員申翰：一個月給我方案、兩個月把它改好，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長建松：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：至少一定要足額發放、可以足額領取，這最基本的吧？"],["蔡局長建松：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這不是優先，是足額領取喔！我不管你優先不優先，就是足額、不可以少一塊錢。"],["蔡局長建松：是，我們按照委員的指導來做。"],["洪委員申翰：好。","接下來，我要請數發部闕次長。次長，我不知道你有沒有看到，上週有一位美國的亞太議題專家在外交家雜誌上面發表了一篇專文，這篇專文其實談到了臺灣海纜的問題，這篇文章談了很多內容，他最後有一個很重要的建議，這個建議就是，他認為臺灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施。為什麼今天還是要跟闕次長討論這事情？我跟你說，我已經像蒐集七龍珠一樣，我已經問過陳建仁院長、問過國土辦、問過國安局、問過NCC、問過海巡署、也問過中華電信，大家都說他們同意、也覺得應該要把臺馬的海纜列為CI，但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部。次長，你覺得呢？不管是國外、國內，大家都認為臺馬海纜的重要性，尤其過去被破壞的程度，尤其是現在像在聯合利劍行動裡面，他們就是針對我們的離島攻擊，應該要列為CI，次長？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，一個基礎建設我們能不能把它列為CI有幾個要件，那這個……"],["洪委員申翰：是。次長，我時間不夠，我跟你說，在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把它的要件，包括它的定義全部都拿出來了，所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意它應該是CI。"],["闕次長河鳴：對，但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚，比如說臺馬海纜跟臺金海纜，對我來說，臺馬海纜的微波備援是充足的，但是其他的海纜可能微波備援不是充足，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我覺得不一定是充足的。之前有講過，你們是用了微波，但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候，我們可能要把頻寬優先交給軍方來使用，到時候還是不是充足的？這是打上一個大大的問號！包括微波備援的頻寬跟我們一般海纜的頻寬就是有很大的差別，包括你的養護、管理上面的作業，都跟一般列為CI的是不一樣的。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，微波的部分，軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的，我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見。但是如果您到微波站去看，就會發現我們現在中華電信的微波跟軍方是分開的，但是海纜裡面的確有部分的海纜是提供軍方使用。"],["洪委員申翰：所以次長，現在意思是數發部還是不願列為CI？"],["闕次長河鳴：要不要列為CI每年會依程序準時來辦理。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月，已經經過17個月了，你們的評估是怎樣？就我知道，國土辦也希望列入、NCC也希望列入、行政院也希望列入、大家都希望列入、國安局也覺得該列入，只有你們覺得……"],["闕次長河鳴：我們沒有覺得不應該列入，但我們是認為你要按照規定來辦理……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，如果你沒有覺得……"],["闕次長河鳴：你要列為CI是它沒有任何備援的時候，最後一道防線才會被列為CI……"],["洪委員申翰：不是，不只是這樣子吧？列為CI的定義不是只有它完全沒有備援吧？我們要不要來看一下CI的定義？CI的定義不是完全沒有備援才能夠被列入CI……"],["闕次長河鳴：按照你這邊寫的，它有分數跟重要性嘛？"],["洪委員申翰：是！"],["闕次長河鳴：我們就是根據它的……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我做一個建議，我沒有要求所有的國內海纜都要列入，但臺馬海纜或跟離島之間的海纜，我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把它的特殊性給標示出來？"],["闕次長河鳴：這個我們在通盤檢討的時候，我們也會納入考慮，但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海纜在下次是不是會列為CI，因為就像你剛剛列的，它每一條有它的分數跟評估的方式，根據分數跟評估方式……"],["洪委員申翰：是，但次長我要跟你說，這件事情不是我第一次講，我們已經提了17個月了。"],["闕次長河鳴：我瞭解……"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們評估一條海纜要搞17個月還搞不定，態度還游移不定，我會對於關鍵基礎設施CI、我們對於政府國安的態度，我們有很大的存疑啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：我們評估是每年來評估，所以並沒有游移……"],["洪委員申翰：那今年要評估到什麼時候？"],["闕次長河鳴：會按照國土辦的程序來辦。"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["洪委員申翰：那會評估到什麼時候？"],["闕次長河鳴：按照國土辦的……"],["洪委員申翰：主席再給我1分鐘，會到什麼時候？"],["闕次長河鳴：我現在不知道，要回去查。"],["洪委員申翰：所以說問國土辦？"],["闕次長河鳴：評估CI每年……"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼你可以用你現在不知道這個態度？這不是你們主管的嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：那我請韌性司來回答評估……"],["洪委員申翰：這不是你們主管的嗎？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，你們討論完以後，再提供給委員相相關的資訊。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你這個態度我沒辦法接受！"],["闕次長河鳴：因為……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你這個態度我沒辦法接受！要嘛你給我一個明確的時間。"],["闕次長河鳴：我跟你說，因為CI每兩年才評估一次，你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你確定要用這個回答嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：我手上的資料就是這樣嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合利劍行動，當他們在圍馬祖、圍我們離島的時候，你跟他說，對不起，我就是兩年評估一次嘛！你突然來一個演習……"],["闕次長河鳴：當你出現聯合利劍或馬祖斷纜，我們馬上搬衛星過去，我們馬上提升微波，我們所有的事情都是即時在做。"],["洪委員申翰：在做，但是大家還是關心CI啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：不管它是不是關鍵基礎設施，只要出現危機，我們馬上就會處理。"],["主席：好，謝謝，因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，這態度大家沒辦法接受啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：馬上處理如果無法接受的話……"],["主席：次長，委員還在講嘛！你們無法接受的話，你要有一個說法，然後再看質詢怎麼樣，你不能自己就轉回去了。"],["闕次長河鳴：我們的說法就是我們都馬上處理了。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請鄭天財委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 482.601, \"end\": 482.901, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 482.901, \"end\": 483.141, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 483.141, \"end\": 483.402, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 483.402, \"end\": 483.522, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 483.522, \"end\": 483.662, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 483.662, \"end\": 483.922, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 483.922, \"end\": 484.022, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 484.022, \"end\": 484.162, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 484.162, \"end\": 484.362, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 484.362, \"end\": 484.382, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 485.403, \"end\": 502.371, \"text\": \"報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎\", 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\"!\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 855.069, \"end\": 855.089, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"!\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 887.051, \"end\": 887.191, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 887.191, \"end\": 887.212, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,790 --> 00:00:26,246\n請顧部長跟軍醫局的蔡局長請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長是洪委好部長好那還有包括局長局長我想請問其實我們在國防部的主管下除了有很多的軍職人員以外那還有很多的文職跟約聘僱的人員\n\n2\n00:00:27,427 --> 00:00:45,834\n所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場。那,可能大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領。那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線。部長同不同意?\n\n3\n00:00:54,641 --> 00:01:11,427\n這段時間我一直收到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士護理師比方說像是他們分析血液尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師\n\n4\n00:01:12,907 --> 00:01:36,033\n那他們也會有夜班、夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬\n\n5\n00:01:37,728 --> 00:01:56,880\n但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但\n\n6\n00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:26,525\n很慘的事情是部里軍醫院的醫檢師直大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施理他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單\n\n7\n00:02:29,755 --> 00:02:49,523\n因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己\n\n8\n00:02:51,278 --> 00:03:19,011\n訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到\n\n9\n00:03:20,168 --> 00:03:33,344\n但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何?官委員報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金\n\n10\n00:03:34,825 --> 00:03:50,431\n對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給吧那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想\n\n11\n00:03:52,472 --> 00:04:11,469\n只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足夠發給的在這個部分部長你講的你講到一個重點啦其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給\n\n12\n00:04:12,930 --> 00:04:38,190\n所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方\n\n13\n00:04:39,366 --> 00:05:08,545\n部長在這邊局長在這邊我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有局長不要推給行政院啊\n\n14\n00:05:09,185 --> 00:05:32,090\n不是不是,跟委員報告,最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為它的業績績效很好,所以才會到上限,如果沒有到上限,它其實都可以實領到,但是因為會超過上限,所以它的總額因為有一個上限,所以才會大家覺得說好像是它的夜班費被排擠到了,其實...局長不是好像啊,就是啊\n\n15\n00:05:33,010 --> 00:06:00,797\n他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少\n\n16\n00:06:01,465 --> 00:06:23,602\n沒有人要去多要,只是給他們應得的,每個月就按方法,反正別人都可以做到,為什麼其實軍院做不到呢?其實我們每個月計算,也是每個月在計算。但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛,所以人家是算下來以後發現,欸這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛,有出入嘛,甚至可能少了兩千塊,每個月少了兩千塊啊。\n\n17\n00:06:24,342 --> 00:06:47,390\n另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資啊都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛\n\n18\n00:06:48,878 --> 00:07:14,350\n這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以\n\n19\n00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:42,102\n可以嗎?這是可以承諾的事情?是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來?兩個月?我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來?應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到,沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院,因為整個要修要一段時間你不要推給行政院,你們把方案拿出來\n\n20\n00:07:43,042 --> 00:08:04,382\n行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?\n\n21\n00:08:05,403 --> 00:08:22,371\n報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎\n\n22\n00:08:23,601 --> 00:08:46,758\n我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓次長\n\n23\n00:08:55,726 --> 00:09:14,502\n我不知道你們有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣海嵐的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施\n\n24\n00:09:19,091 --> 00:09:48,242\n為什麼今天還是要跟圈長來討論這事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海瀾列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部次長你覺得呢\n\n25\n00:09:49,582 --> 00:09:59,832\n不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I.這樣\n\n26\n00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:27,273\n跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件是那這個事實上我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI\n\n27\n00:10:28,554 --> 00:10:54,246\n對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟台京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給\n\n28\n00:11:16,491 --> 00:11:44,222\n跟委員報告微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會\n\n29\n00:11:45,882 --> 00:12:04,197\n每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入\n\n30\n00:12:05,259 --> 00:12:21,335\n只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義\n\n31\n00:12:22,697 --> 00:12:36,058\n實驗案的定義不是沒有被人才能夠被列入實驗案按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我建議我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但\n\n32\n00:12:37,798 --> 00:13:03,070\n臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在空盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為C因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了\n\n33\n00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:04,550\n我現在不知道要回去查\n\n34\n00:13:33,288 --> 00:13:59,968\n那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性室來回答評估西安的...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊吧...次長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...因為...次長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?次長\n\n35\n00:14:03,271 --> 00:14:09,737\n你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組\n\n36\n00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:15,089\n市長!市長!\n\n37\n00:14:47,051 --> 00:14:47,212\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n790\t26246\t請顧部長跟軍醫局的蔡局長請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長是 洪委好部長好 那還有包括局長局長 我想請問其實我們在國防部的主管下除了有很多的軍職人員以外那還有很多的文職跟約聘僱的人員\n27427\t45834\t所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場。那,可能大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領。那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線。部長同不同意?\n54641\t71427\t這段時間我一直收到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士護理師比方說像是他們分析血液尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師\n72907\t96033\t那他們也會有夜班、夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬\n97728\t116880\t但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但\n122930\t146525\t很慘的事情是部里軍醫院的醫檢師直大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施理他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單\n149755\t169523\t因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己\n171278\t199011\t訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到\n200168\t213344\t但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何?官委員報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金\n214825\t230431\t對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給吧那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想\n232472\t251469\t只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足夠發給的在這個部分部長你講的你講到一個重點啦其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給\n252930\t278190\t所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方\n279366\t308545\t部長在這邊局長在這邊我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有局長不要推給行政院啊\n309185\t332090\t不是不是,跟委員報告,最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為它的業績績效很好,所以才會到上限,如果沒有到上限,它其實都可以實領到,但是因為會超過上限,所以它的總額因為有一個上限,所以才會大家覺得說好像是它的夜班費被排擠到了,其實...局長不是好像啊,就是啊\n333010\t360797\t他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少\n361465\t383602\t沒有人要去多要,只是給他們應得的,每個月就按方法,反正別人都可以做到,為什麼其實軍院做不到呢?其實我們每個月計算,也是每個月在計算。但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛,所以人家是算下來以後發現,欸這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛,有出入嘛,甚至可能少了兩千塊,每個月少了兩千塊啊。\n384342\t407390\t另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資啊都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛\n408878\t434350\t這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以\n434970\t462102\t可以嗎?這是可以承諾的事情?是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來?兩個月?我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來?應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到,沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院,因為整個要修要一段時間你不要推給行政院,你們把方案拿出來\n463042\t484382\t行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?\n485403\t502371\t報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎\n503601\t526758\t我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓次長\n535726\t554502\t我不知道你們有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣海嵐的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施\n559091\t588242\t為什麼今天還是要跟圈長來討論這事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC 問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海瀾列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部次長你覺得呢\n589582\t599832\t不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I.這樣\n608150\t627273\t跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件是那這個事實上我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI\n628554\t654246\t對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟台京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給\n657978\t676391\t﹗\n676491\t704222\t跟委員報告微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會\n705882\t724197\t每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入\n725259\t741335\t只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義\n742697\t756058\t實驗案的定義不是沒有被人才能夠被列入實驗案按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我建議我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但\n757798\t783070\t臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在空盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為C因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了\n783850\t784550\t我現在不知道要回去查\n813288\t839968\t那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性室來回答評估西安的...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊吧...次長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...因為...次長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?次長\n843271\t849737\t你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組\n854949\t855089\t市長!市長!\n887051\t887212\t主席\n","txt":"請顧部長跟軍醫局的蔡局長請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長是 洪委好部長好 那還有包括局長局長 我想請問其實我們在國防部的主管下除了有很多的軍職人員以外那還有很多的文職跟約聘僱的人員\n所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場。那,可能大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領。那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線。部長同不同意?\n這段時間我一直收到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士護理師比方說像是他們分析血液尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師\n那他們也會有夜班、夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬\n但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但\n很慘的事情是部里軍醫院的醫檢師直大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施理他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單\n因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己\n訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到\n但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何?官委員報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金\n對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給吧那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想\n只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足夠發給的在這個部分部長你講的你講到一個重點啦其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給\n所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方\n部長在這邊局長在這邊我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有局長不要推給行政院啊\n不是不是,跟委員報告,最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為它的業績績效很好,所以才會到上限,如果沒有到上限,它其實都可以實領到,但是因為會超過上限,所以它的總額因為有一個上限,所以才會大家覺得說好像是它的夜班費被排擠到了,其實...局長不是好像啊,就是啊\n他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少\n沒有人要去多要,只是給他們應得的,每個月就按方法,反正別人都可以做到,為什麼其實軍院做不到呢?其實我們每個月計算,也是每個月在計算。但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛,所以人家是算下來以後發現,欸這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛,有出入嘛,甚至可能少了兩千塊,每個月少了兩千塊啊。\n另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資啊都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛\n這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以\n可以嗎?這是可以承諾的事情?是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來?兩個月?我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來?應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到,沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院,因為整個要修要一段時間你不要推給行政院,你們把方案拿出來\n行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?\n報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎\n我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓次長\n我不知道你們有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣海嵐的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施\n為什麼今天還是要跟圈長來討論這事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC 問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海瀾列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部次長你覺得呢\n不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I.這樣\n跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件是那這個事實上我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI\n對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟台京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給\n﹗\n跟委員報告微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會\n每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入\n只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義\n實驗案的定義不是沒有被人才能夠被列入實驗案按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我建議我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但\n臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在空盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為C因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了\n我現在不知道要回去查\n那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性室來回答評估西安的...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊吧...次長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...因為...次長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?次長\n你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組\n市長!市長!\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.790 --> 00:26.246\n請顧部長跟軍醫局的蔡局長請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長是洪委好部長好那還有包括局長局長我想請問其實我們在國防部的主管下除了有很多的軍職人員以外那還有很多的文職跟約聘僱的人員\n\n00:27.427 --> 00:45.834\n所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場。那,可能大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領。那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線。部長同不同意?\n\n00:54.641 --> 01:11.427\n這段時間我一直收到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士護理師比方說像是他們分析血液尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師\n\n01:12.907 --> 01:36.033\n那他們也會有夜班、夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬\n\n01:37.728 --> 01:56.880\n但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但\n\n02:02.930 --> 02:26.525\n很慘的事情是部里軍醫院的醫檢師直大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施理他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單\n\n02:29.755 --> 02:49.523\n因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己\n\n02:51.278 --> 03:19.011\n訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到\n\n03:20.168 --> 03:33.344\n但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何?官委員報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金\n\n03:34.825 --> 03:50.431\n對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給吧那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想\n\n03:52.472 --> 04:11.469\n只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足夠發給的在這個部分部長你講的你講到一個重點啦其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給\n\n04:12.930 --> 04:38.190\n所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方\n\n04:39.366 --> 05:08.545\n部長在這邊局長在這邊我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有局長不要推給行政院啊\n\n05:09.185 --> 05:32.090\n不是不是,跟委員報告,最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為它的業績績效很好,所以才會到上限,如果沒有到上限,它其實都可以實領到,但是因為會超過上限,所以它的總額因為有一個上限,所以才會大家覺得說好像是它的夜班費被排擠到了,其實...局長不是好像啊,就是啊\n\n05:33.010 --> 06:00.797\n他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少\n\n06:01.465 --> 06:23.602\n沒有人要去多要,只是給他們應得的,每個月就按方法,反正別人都可以做到,為什麼其實軍院做不到呢?其實我們每個月計算,也是每個月在計算。但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛,所以人家是算下來以後發現,欸這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛,有出入嘛,甚至可能少了兩千塊,每個月少了兩千塊啊。\n\n06:24.342 --> 06:47.390\n另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資啊都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛\n\n06:48.878 --> 07:14.350\n這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以\n\n07:14.970 --> 07:42.102\n可以嗎?這是可以承諾的事情?是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來?兩個月?我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來?應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到,沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院,因為整個要修要一段時間你不要推給行政院,你們把方案拿出來\n\n07:43.042 --> 08:04.382\n行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?\n\n08:05.403 --> 08:22.371\n報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎\n\n08:23.601 --> 08:46.758\n我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓次長\n\n08:55.726 --> 09:14.502\n我不知道你們有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣海嵐的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施\n\n09:19.091 --> 09:48.242\n為什麼今天還是要跟圈長來討論這事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海瀾列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部次長你覺得呢\n\n09:49.582 --> 09:59.832\n不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I.這樣\n\n10:08.150 --> 10:27.273\n跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件是那這個事實上我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI\n\n10:28.554 --> 10:54.246\n對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟台京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給\n\n11:16.491 --> 11:44.222\n跟委員報告微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會\n\n11:45.882 --> 12:04.197\n每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入\n\n12:05.259 --> 12:21.335\n只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義\n\n12:22.697 --> 12:36.058\n實驗案的定義不是沒有被人才能夠被列入實驗案按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我建議我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但\n\n12:37.798 --> 13:03.070\n臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在空盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為C因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了\n\n13:03.850 --> 13:04.550\n我現在不知道要回去查\n\n13:33.288 --> 13:59.968\n那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性室來回答評估西安的...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊吧...次長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...因為...次長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?次長\n\n14:03.271 --> 14:09.737\n你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組\n\n14:14.949 --> 14:15.089\n市長!市長!\n\n14:47.051 --> 14:47.212\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.79,"end":26.246,"text":"請顧部長跟軍醫局的蔡局長請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長是 洪委好部長好 那還有包括局長局長 我想請問其實我們在國防部的主管下除了有很多的軍職人員以外那還有很多的文職跟約聘僱的人員"},{"start":27.427,"end":45.834,"text":"所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場。那,可能大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領。那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線。部長同不同意?"},{"start":54.641,"end":71.427,"text":"這段時間我一直收到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士護理師比方說像是他們分析血液尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師"},{"start":72.907,"end":96.033,"text":"那他們也會有夜班、夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬"},{"start":97.728,"end":116.88,"text":"但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但"},{"start":122.93,"end":146.525,"text":"很慘的事情是部里軍醫院的醫檢師直大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施理他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單"},{"start":149.755,"end":169.523,"text":"因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己"},{"start":171.278,"end":199.011,"text":"訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到"},{"start":200.168,"end":213.344,"text":"但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何?官委員報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金"},{"start":214.825,"end":230.431,"text":"對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給吧那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想"},{"start":232.472,"end":251.469,"text":"只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足夠發給的在這個部分部長你講的你講到一個重點啦其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給"},{"start":252.93,"end":278.19,"text":"所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方"},{"start":279.366,"end":308.545,"text":"部長在這邊局長在這邊我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有局長不要推給行政院啊"},{"start":309.185,"end":332.09,"text":"不是不是,跟委員報告,最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為它的業績績效很好,所以才會到上限,如果沒有到上限,它其實都可以實領到,但是因為會超過上限,所以它的總額因為有一個上限,所以才會大家覺得說好像是它的夜班費被排擠到了,其實...局長不是好像啊,就是啊"},{"start":333.01,"end":360.797,"text":"他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少"},{"start":361.465,"end":383.602,"text":"沒有人要去多要,只是給他們應得的,每個月就按方法,反正別人都可以做到,為什麼其實軍院做不到呢?其實我們每個月計算,也是每個月在計算。但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛,所以人家是算下來以後發現,欸這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛,有出入嘛,甚至可能少了兩千塊,每個月少了兩千塊啊。"},{"start":384.342,"end":407.39,"text":"另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資啊都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛"},{"start":408.878,"end":434.35,"text":"這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以"},{"start":434.97,"end":462.102,"text":"可以嗎?這是可以承諾的事情?是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來?兩個月?我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來?應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到,沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院,因為整個要修要一段時間你不要推給行政院,你們把方案拿出來"},{"start":463.042,"end":484.382,"text":"行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?"},{"start":485.403,"end":502.371,"text":"報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎"},{"start":503.601,"end":526.758,"text":"我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓次長"},{"start":535.726,"end":554.502,"text":"我不知道你們有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣海嵐的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":559.091,"end":588.242,"text":"為什麼今天還是要跟圈長來討論這事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC 問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海瀾列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部次長你覺得呢"},{"start":589.582,"end":599.832,"text":"不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I.這樣"},{"start":608.15,"end":627.273,"text":"跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件是那這個事實上我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI"},{"start":628.554,"end":654.246,"text":"對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟台京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給"},{"start":657.978,"end":676.391,"text":"﹗"},{"start":676.491,"end":704.222,"text":"跟委員報告微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會"},{"start":705.882,"end":724.197,"text":"每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入"},{"start":725.259,"end":741.335,"text":"只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義"},{"start":742.697,"end":756.058,"text":"實驗案的定義不是沒有被人才能夠被列入實驗案按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我建議我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但"},{"start":757.798,"end":783.07,"text":"臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在空盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為C因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了"},{"start":783.85,"end":784.55,"text":"我現在不知道要回去查"},{"start":813.288,"end":839.968,"text":"那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性室來回答評估西安的...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊吧...次長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...因為...次長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?次長"},{"start":843.271,"end":849.737,"text":"你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組"},{"start":854.949,"end":855.089,"text":"市長!市長!"},{"start":887.051,"end":887.212,"text":"主席"}]}}}}