{"id":154702,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9a90562194c0f4646e6fdecbb7cc8faa7c114453cb9c203b0231ebb0c6498256a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:13:32 - 10:25:30","影片長度":"00:11:58","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:13:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:25:30+08:00","duration":718,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時13分）主席，我們請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：次長早。"],["徐次長錫祥：早安。"],["沈委員發惠：我想經過剛剛前面幾位委員大家大概都針對今天的案子有做一些……有一些是針對今天的修正草案做了具體討論，有一些把社會、政治上的輿論、政治立場在這邊表述，我想都沒有關係，但是重要的是今天本委員會安排這樣子的議程，其實主要就是因為剛才大家都有提到，從2017年司改國是會議到現在……有關2017年司改國是會議所通過的決議，決議內容有關一些相關的妨害司法公正的罪刑，以及棄保潛逃、偽證等等相關這些案件，確實在司改國是會議的結論裡面有很明確的說明，在當時司改國是會議的時候，我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致，但是今天排這樣子的議程，其實我聽剛才這些包括提案委員及剛才質詢的委員，大家都有一個……好像就是排這樣的議程的目的是什麼？就是因為你們經過七年，從2017年到現在，經過七年都不動，所以我們司法及法制委員會今天就先把委員所提的修正案列入議程來審議，目的就是因為你們怠惰七年，司改國是會議從2017年到現在2024年，七年的時間，棄保潛逃罪以及其他妨害司法相關的罪行，你們都沒有立法、都沒有提出修正草案，所以今天排這個來逼我們法務部來做說明啦。","所以這個重點，我想在這邊還是要釐清，其實剛才都已經說明過很多次，但是我覺得這個說明因為有一些部分就聚焦在目前的委員提案，跟法務部目前還沒有送到立法院來的草案在一些地方是不一樣的，所以好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論，但是在前提上還是要讓法務部來說明，這七年來法務部都在睡覺嗎？次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，因為這裡面包括剛才委員就教的很多部分，是不是會有制定失衡的問題，我們召開11次的研商會議，很多學者專家也都有不同的意見，要整合這些要花很多很多的時間。"],["沈委員發惠：我想重點是這樣子啦！我們看到你剛才一再說明說從2017年司改國是會議之後，大概從2019年開始，法務部最早的草案就提出來送到行政院，但是在行政院之後，我們經過11次的審查會議，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這11次的審查會議做了這個說明，再來就是要跟國人說明為什麼開11次審查會議卻不行？是因為大家覺得特權關說沒關係，大家覺得棄保潛逃沒關係，所以法務部、行政院、民進黨政府就故意拖延，才會經過11次審查，到底為什麼經過11次審查會議？問題出在哪裡？一定有它的一些爭點嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：剛才大概有做一些說明，是不是能夠請你現在主要聚焦地說明幾個有關進行11次審查會議裡面，比較重要的幾個爭議焦點？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，棄保潛逃是來自於美國的立法概念，相對的在歐陸法系裡基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則……"],["沈委員發惠：不自證己罪。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，所以歐陸的法系比較沒有這樣的立法。"],["沈委員發惠：但是我們司改國是會議已經做成這樣的決議……"],["徐次長錫祥：對、對。"],["沈委員發惠：而且法務部也支持，我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法，所以這個部分就不用再說了，這應該是一次會議就解決了。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我的意思是說，因為我們的刑事實體法主要是歐陸傳襲過來，裡面有構成要件還有處罰的範圍，我們設計這個新的草案，必須要針對這兩部不太一樣的法律思維把它融合在一起，對於很多的構成要件還有處罰的範圍，就會變成很多學者有不同的意見，所以一次又一次的研討會，一直、一直修，最近我們已經差不多快定好了。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道、我知道，這個進度當然是要跟國人說明啦！但是我現在是說，為什麼開11次會？這部分要說明清楚。"],["徐次長錫祥：是、是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以不能讓外界覺得好像你們故意怠惰、拖延……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，沒有……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有司法改革的決心，不尊重司改國是會議的決議。所以剛剛所講的，你說因為歐陸法系不自證己罪原則，這些可能是在法務部提出草案之前的前階段討論，我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面，它的焦點不會是這個，今天會拖到11次會議一再修改、各界一再有意見，應該是在這個立法過程中有一些部分，其實這在剛才前面委員質詢都有提到，我只是希望你把它講清楚，包括有一些部分在罪刑相當的比例上有問題，對不對？剛才在質詢、備詢裡面都有提到，這樣子比較不可課責的罪行，其刑度反而比較高。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以第一個是這個部分，剛才你大概有舉幾個例子，就是有關罪刑相當的原則，這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案，學者有不同的意見。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這是第一個。另外剛剛有提到一些部分是有關明確性的原則，就是構成要件的明確，例如說用潛逃，什麼叫做潛逃？目前潛逃這個法律定義好像不是很明確，例如剛剛講有關於它的構成要件是不是以通緝作為構成要件之一，這些部分都是有不同意見、不同爭議。另外也有提到說要符合比例原則，在比例原則上面，也有一些學者有不同的見解。所以就是說這11次的會議，並不是我們在拖延，而是有關剛剛所講的這些，包括等一下我們看今天黨團的提案、包括委員的提案本身裡面，如果這個是法務部的草案的話，不要說11次會議，12次、13次、14次，按照這種條文也是不會過啦，因為裡面也確實有一些部分是不符合這些原則的，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，所以接下來這11次會議之後，現在你要說明，我想今天委員會也會關心啦，包括最後我們委員會針對今天委員的提案，會做什麼樣的處理方式。目前我們的進度到哪裡？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們現在有一些會議、有一些文字還在修改，馬上就會送給我們部長，陳核完了以後就會……"],["沈委員發惠：要會銜司法院。"],["徐次長錫祥：會銜司法院，等他們開會完以後才會到……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，所以現在還在法務部修改的階段，還是現在已經送到司法院會銜？"],["徐次長錫祥：現在在行政院，我們帶回來修改，已經在行政院了。"],["沈委員發惠：已經在行政院，但是你們法務部做修改，之後行政院又會通過，還要會銜司法院，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以現在目前的階段是行政院還沒有通過？"],["徐次長錫祥：還沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：還沒有嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，但是已經到最後了。"],["沈委員發惠：為什麼到最後？你開了11次會，你為什麼認為這次是最後？"],["徐次長錫祥：現在是文字修改而已。"],["沈委員發惠：只有文字修改而已？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所以什麼時候？多久？"],["徐次長錫祥：儘速、真的儘速，因為又會牽扯到司法院院會的問題。"],["沈委員發惠：司法院院會，到時候在司法院院會，因為今天是法官來，如果說今天是秘書長來，我們就來問司法院的進度，今天是我們刑事廳……"],["徐次長錫祥：所以我們就不太能夠很精確講說多久……"],["沈委員發惠：我先不講會銜的部分，什麼時候行政院的部分會送到司法院會銜？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們只能儘速，因為真的只剩下文字修改而已，真的！"],["沈委員發惠：所以要多久你今天也講不出來啦，因為也不是法務部直接送啦，這也是要行政院通過，如果說你們今天做最後的文字修正，行政院還有一些意見，到時候還要再送回法務部，你們還要再修改一次啦，最後送到司法院會銜，他們有沒有不同的意見，我想你也無法掌握，但是重點是你剛剛講說儘快、很快，而且這就是最後的修改了，所以有沒有辦法在半年之內送到立法院來？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們朝這個目標前進。"],["沈委員發惠：朝這個目標啦，好，我這樣問好了，你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院？這個法務部總說得出來了吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五。"],["沈委員發惠：這禮拜五？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院？"],["徐次長錫祥：對、對、對。"],["沈委員發惠：好，那這樣子的進度，因為這整個立法體例不只是棄保潛逃，今天有很多委員的提案是棄保潛逃，事實上它是妨害整個司法公正相關的這些法令，甚至章節都必須要新增。"],["徐次長錫祥：增加、新增。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我個人也在這邊建議主席，希望我們能夠不要讓法務部過去七年11次的努力變成白費，我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會銜之後，送到立法院來，我們再併案來審查，這部分是本席的建議，以上。"],["徐次長錫祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","下一位我們請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"154702","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154702","tool":"pyannote","id":"154702-pyannote"},"job_id":"QXBvDBEULIJIH0lK","queued_at":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\"start\": 714.513, \"end\": 715.034, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 715.034, \"end\": 715.934, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 715.934, \"end\": 716.034, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 716.034, \"end\": 716.154, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 716.154, \"end\": 716.254, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 716.254, \"end\": 716.414, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 716.414, \"end\": 716.514, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 716.514, \"end\": 716.654, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 716.654, \"end\": 716.874, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 716.874, \"end\": 717.034, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 717.034, \"end\": 717.054, \"score\": 0.932}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,670 --> 00:00:17,992\n主席我們請次長麻煩次長喂齁次長早齁早安我想這個經過剛剛前面幾位委員齁大家大概都針對今天的這個案子有做一些\n\n2\n00:00:34,264 --> 00:00:58,100\n做一些這個有一些是針對今天的這個修正修正的草案做的具體討論那有一些他把這個這個社會政治上面一些輿論齁一些政治立場在這邊表述齁我想都沒有關係但是重要是今天我們這個本委會安排這樣子的議程齁其實很主要就是因為這個\n\n3\n00:01:00,153 --> 00:01:23,859\n這個剛才大家都有提到從2017年國事會議到司改國事會議到現在這個有關在2017年司改國事會議所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪行以及這個棄保潛逃\n\n4\n00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:51,646\n委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像\n\n5\n00:01:52,790 --> 00:02:01,072\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n\n6\n00:02:01,758 --> 00:02:28,898\n所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法\n\n7\n00:02:30,478 --> 00:02:36,666\n所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個說明\n\n8\n00:02:42,165 --> 00:03:08,972\n所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想\n\n9\n00:03:11,536 --> 00:03:17,147\n前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:18,789 --> 00:03:44,592\n市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡制定有失衡的問題我們召開的11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子的我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個\n\n11\n00:03:46,936 --> 00:04:01,951\n這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的最早的這個草案就提出來了就送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的這個審查會議對不對對這11次的審查會議\n\n12\n00:04:09,417 --> 00:04:26,642\n三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一\n\n13\n00:04:28,625 --> 00:04:50,377\n問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣泡潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。\n\n14\n00:04:52,058 --> 00:05:19,849\n相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法對但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這個部分應該是一次會議就結局了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來\n\n15\n00:05:21,810 --> 00:05:44,663\n三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一\n\n16\n00:05:50,606 --> 00:06:09,341\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n\n17\n00:06:10,594 --> 00:06:32,104\n所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正己罪原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見\n\n18\n00:06:33,183 --> 00:06:50,635\n之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三\n\n19\n00:06:51,175 --> 00:07:11,935\n三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n\n20\n00:07:13,857 --> 00:07:26,904\n這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則\n\n21\n00:07:28,029 --> 00:07:51,665\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百\n\n22\n00:07:54,625 --> 00:08:09,920\n此外也提到要符合比例原則,在比例原則上也有一些不同的見解。所以這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延,而是有關剛剛所講的這些,包括今天黨團的提案、委員的提案,\n\n23\n00:08:15,566 --> 00:08:29,540\n本身裡面如果這個是司法部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以\n\n24\n00:08:33,646 --> 00:08:39,995\n三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．\n\n25\n00:08:50,765 --> 00:09:03,682\n報告委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院\n\n26\n00:09:06,067 --> 00:09:22,585\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一\n\n27\n00:09:23,806 --> 00:09:39,581\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n\n28\n00:09:41,328 --> 00:10:08,993\n多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁\n\n29\n00:10:10,598 --> 00:10:32,663\n三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n\n30\n00:10:37,384 --> 00:10:57,231\n重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這個你訪問部總說得出來吧\n\n31\n00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:30,189\n那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增\n\n32\n00:11:30,669 --> 00:11:57,054\n所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15670\t17992\t主席我們請次長麻煩次長喂齁次長早齁早安我想這個經過剛剛前面幾位委員齁大家大概都針對今天的這個案子有做一些\n34264\t58100\t做一些這個有一些是針對今天的這個修正修正的草案做的具體討論那有一些他把這個這個社會政治上面一些輿論齁一些政治立場在這邊表述齁我想都沒有關係但是重要是今天我們這個本委會安排這樣子的議程齁其實很主要就是因為這個\n60153\t83859\t這個剛才大家都有提到從2017年國事會議到司改國事會議到現在這個有關在2017年司改國事會議所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪行以及這個棄保潛逃\n86680\t111646\t委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像\n112790\t121072\t三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n121758\t148898\t所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法\n150478\t156666\t所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個說明\n162165\t188972\t所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想\n191536\t197147\t前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?\n198789\t224592\t市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡 制定有失衡的問題我們召開的11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子的我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個\n226936\t241951\t這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的最早的這個草案就提出來了就送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的這個審查會議對不對對這11次的審查會議\n249417\t266642\t三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一\n268625\t290377\t問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣泡潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。\n292058\t319849\t相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法對但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這個部分應該是一次會議就結局了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來\n321810\t344663\t三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一\n350606\t369341\t三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n370594\t392104\t所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正己罪原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見\n393183\t410635\t之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三\n411175\t431935\t三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n433857\t446904\t這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則\n448029\t471665\t三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百\n474625\t489920\t此外也提到要符合比例原則,在比例原則上也有一些不同的見解。所以這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延,而是有關剛剛所講的這些,包括今天黨團的提案、委員的提案,\n495566\t509540\t本身裡面如果這個是司法部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以\n513646\t519995\t三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．\n530765\t543682\t報告委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院\n546067\t562585\t三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一\n563806\t579581\t三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n581328\t608993\t多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁\n610598\t632663\t三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n637384\t657231\t重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這個你訪問部總說得出來吧\n663496\t690189\t那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增\n690669\t717054\t所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上\n","txt":"主席我們請次長麻煩次長喂齁次長早齁早安我想這個經過剛剛前面幾位委員齁大家大概都針對今天的這個案子有做一些\n做一些這個有一些是針對今天的這個修正修正的草案做的具體討論那有一些他把這個這個社會政治上面一些輿論齁一些政治立場在這邊表述齁我想都沒有關係但是重要是今天我們這個本委會安排這樣子的議程齁其實很主要就是因為這個\n這個剛才大家都有提到從2017年國事會議到司改國事會議到現在這個有關在2017年司改國事會議所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪行以及這個棄保潛逃\n委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法\n所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個說明\n所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想\n前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?\n市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡 制定有失衡的問題我們召開的11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子的我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個\n這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的最早的這個草案就提出來了就送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的這個審查會議對不對對這11次的審查會議\n三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一\n問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣泡潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。\n相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法對但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這個部分應該是一次會議就結局了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來\n三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正己罪原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見\n之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三\n三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百\n此外也提到要符合比例原則,在比例原則上也有一些不同的見解。所以這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延,而是有關剛剛所講的這些,包括今天黨團的提案、委員的提案,\n本身裡面如果這個是司法部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以\n三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．\n報告委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁\n三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這個你訪問部總說得出來吧\n那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增\n所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.670 --> 00:17.992\n主席我們請次長麻煩次長喂齁次長早齁早安我想這個經過剛剛前面幾位委員齁大家大概都針對今天的這個案子有做一些\n\n00:34.264 --> 00:58.100\n做一些這個有一些是針對今天的這個修正修正的草案做的具體討論那有一些他把這個這個社會政治上面一些輿論齁一些政治立場在這邊表述齁我想都沒有關係但是重要是今天我們這個本委會安排這樣子的議程齁其實很主要就是因為這個\n\n01:00.153 --> 01:23.859\n這個剛才大家都有提到從2017年國事會議到司改國事會議到現在這個有關在2017年司改國事會議所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪行以及這個棄保潛逃\n\n01:26.680 --> 01:51.646\n委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像\n\n01:52.790 --> 02:01.072\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n\n02:01.758 --> 02:28.898\n所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法\n\n02:30.478 --> 02:36.666\n所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個說明\n\n02:42.165 --> 03:08.972\n所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想\n\n03:11.536 --> 03:17.147\n前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?\n\n03:18.789 --> 03:44.592\n市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡制定有失衡的問題我們召開的11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子的我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個\n\n03:46.936 --> 04:01.951\n這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的最早的這個草案就提出來了就送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的這個審查會議對不對對這11次的審查會議\n\n04:09.417 --> 04:26.642\n三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一\n\n04:28.625 --> 04:50.377\n問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣泡潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。\n\n04:52.058 --> 05:19.849\n相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法對但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這個部分應該是一次會議就結局了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來\n\n05:21.810 --> 05:44.663\n三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一\n\n05:50.606 --> 06:09.341\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n\n06:10.594 --> 06:32.104\n所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正己罪原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見\n\n06:33.183 --> 06:50.635\n之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三\n\n06:51.175 --> 07:11.935\n三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n\n07:13.857 --> 07:26.904\n這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則\n\n07:28.029 --> 07:51.665\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百\n\n07:54.625 --> 08:09.920\n此外也提到要符合比例原則,在比例原則上也有一些不同的見解。所以這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延,而是有關剛剛所講的這些,包括今天黨團的提案、委員的提案,\n\n08:15.566 --> 08:29.540\n本身裡面如果這個是司法部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以\n\n08:33.646 --> 08:39.995\n三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．\n\n08:50.765 --> 09:03.682\n報告委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院\n\n09:06.067 --> 09:22.585\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一\n\n09:23.806 --> 09:39.581\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百\n\n09:41.328 --> 10:08.993\n多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁\n\n10:10.598 --> 10:32.663\n三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百\n\n10:37.384 --> 10:57.231\n重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這個你訪問部總說得出來吧\n\n11:03.496 --> 11:30.189\n那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增\n\n11:30.669 --> 11:57.054\n所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.67,"end":17.992,"text":"主席我們請次長麻煩次長喂齁次長早齁早安我想這個經過剛剛前面幾位委員齁大家大概都針對今天的這個案子有做一些"},{"start":34.264,"end":58.1,"text":"做一些這個有一些是針對今天的這個修正修正的草案做的具體討論那有一些他把這個這個社會政治上面一些輿論齁一些政治立場在這邊表述齁我想都沒有關係但是重要是今天我們這個本委會安排這樣子的議程齁其實很主要就是因為這個"},{"start":60.153,"end":83.859,"text":"這個剛才大家都有提到從2017年國事會議到司改國事會議到現在這個有關在2017年司改國事會議所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪行以及這個棄保潛逃"},{"start":86.68,"end":111.646,"text":"委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像"},{"start":112.79,"end":121.072,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":121.758,"end":148.898,"text":"所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法"},{"start":150.478,"end":156.666,"text":"所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個說明"},{"start":162.165,"end":188.972,"text":"所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想"},{"start":191.536,"end":197.147,"text":"前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?"},{"start":198.789,"end":224.592,"text":"市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡 制定有失衡的問題我們召開的11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子的我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個"},{"start":226.936,"end":241.951,"text":"這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的最早的這個草案就提出來了就送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的這個審查會議對不對對這11次的審查會議"},{"start":249.417,"end":266.642,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":268.625,"end":290.377,"text":"問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣泡潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。"},{"start":292.058,"end":319.849,"text":"相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法對但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這個部分應該是一次會議就結局了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來"},{"start":321.81,"end":344.663,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一"},{"start":350.606,"end":369.341,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":370.594,"end":392.104,"text":"所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正己罪原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見"},{"start":393.183,"end":410.635,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":411.175,"end":431.935,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":433.857,"end":446.904,"text":"這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則"},{"start":448.029,"end":471.665,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百"},{"start":474.625,"end":489.92,"text":"此外也提到要符合比例原則,在比例原則上也有一些不同的見解。所以這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延,而是有關剛剛所講的這些,包括今天黨團的提案、委員的提案,"},{"start":495.566,"end":509.54,"text":"本身裡面如果這個是司法部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以"},{"start":513.646,"end":519.995,"text":"三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．"},{"start":530.765,"end":543.682,"text":"報告委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院"},{"start":546.067,"end":562.585,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":563.806,"end":579.581,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":581.328,"end":608.993,"text":"多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁"},{"start":610.598,"end":632.663,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":637.384,"end":657.231,"text":"重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這個你訪問部總說得出來吧"},{"start":663.496,"end":690.189,"text":"那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增"},{"start":690.669,"end":717.054,"text":"所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上"}]}}}}