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10:48:13","影片長度":"00:13:01","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:35:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:48:13+08:00","duration":781,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時35分）謝謝主席。有請徐次長跟司法院的代表朱法官。"],["主席：請次長、朱法官。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範審理，其實本席這個會期從教育及文化的領域一腳踏進司法及法制的領域，我有充分地學習，我想我知道自己對於法律的理解、憲法的尊重永遠不嫌多。","國會擴權法案很遺憾地在這個屆期通過了，一個在立法院最大、絕對的國會優位原則下立出來、修出來的惡法，除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關，嚴重地破壞臺灣的憲政體制以及權力分立，它就是毀憲亂政，莫此為甚。但是往正面來看，正因為國會這樣的惡搞，社會開始全方面的省思，青鳥的行動全臺串聯，所以國會不討論，就交給社會來討論。我們看到臺灣有了一個有史以來最擴權、濫權的國會，但也因此臺灣凝聚了一個最團結的社會，我往正向來看。所以在場外，不只是立法院的四周，也包括全臺灣的各個地點、各個角落，很多的年輕世代、青鳥們，大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課、一堂珍貴的公民課，我認為這也是珍貴的意義。","另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭，我想這是臺灣有史以來最多人在關注、觀看憲法法庭直播，史上第一次，同時這也是全臺灣一起來上一堂憲法課、法律課非常珍貴的時刻。我們的召委昨天也一起出席，我也是聲請方的代表，大法官不是特別對國民黨、民眾黨的立委嚴格，大法官、憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰，當然要嚴格地檢視，有人要不斷地毀憲亂政，摧毀臺灣民主的另外一個面向，我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產給臺灣社會。","我今天在這裡，我在國會語重心長。但是非常遺憾，憲法法庭還沒有審理之前，甚至還沒有受理之前，我們看看國民黨的委員們，從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗，再批判大法官沒有民意基礎，再到要求大法官要自重、愛惜羽毛，甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分，就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權作出因應，這是還沒受理前國民黨說的喔！昨天憲法法庭開了，憲法法庭當庭，民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員，他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題，太荒謬了。甚至到今天，憲法法庭開完的今天，國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會，繼續地來鬥臭憲法法庭、繼續地抹綠這些大法官，國民黨的記者會主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治。","今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應，憲法法庭基於憲法的授權，何錯之有？昨天立法院的機關代表們，國、眾黨的委員說程序不完備，所謂的暫時處分，因為它的性質，其實開庭並非必要，甚至不是常態，而且是第一次吧？我說的沒有錯吧？所以憲法法庭是特別慎重的，過去不需要就暫時處分來特別開庭，因為慎重、因為尊重立法院，所以特別召開準備庭，所有程序該上網的上網，該可以調閱的卷證都完全地提供，程序哪裡不完備？如果國民黨、民眾黨的委員再批判大法官程序不完備，那請好好思考自己在審議、強行輾壓國會擴權法案的時候，程序有完備嗎？程序不正義，在國會完全被踐踏。","第二點，有委員說害他這幾天都只睡3個小時，好辛苦喔，準備時間不足。當國民黨可以在今年的3月8號，民眾黨是2月20號就提出立法院職權行使法乃至於刑法的修正案，你們送出一個違憲的版本時，你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰。時間不足嗎？甚至你們最後一刻黑箱喬條文，我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是比民進黨的委員事先知道要被表決的條文是什麼，因為當時他們列為最高機密。武器不對等嗎？我要再還原那天韓院長主持的朝野協商，民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表，讓國民黨、民眾黨代表，包括訴訟代理人，民進黨是禮讓的，但是另外這邊有人說12比3，為什麼這邊是12？因為有四個聲請的機關，總統府、行政院、監察院、立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間，如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講，四個機關分享30分鐘，但是立法院的機關代表就使用30分鐘，完全是均等，甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播，是誰占用了更多的時間，大法官也充分地讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見，不是嗎？所以沒有武器不對等這件事。","昨天大法官真的是直球對決了，但是大法官是做球給立法院的機關代表委員們，可以充分地針對是不是有違憲，或是他們主張合憲，充分地一題又一題，給機會再給機會，聚焦再聚焦，給予立法院的機關代表、幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應，所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀、威脅大法官，真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害。言盡於此。我希望今天在這裡作成議事紀錄，但我還是正向地認為這是全臺灣有史以來最珍貴的民主課、公民課、憲法課、法律課，全臺灣都在這個過程裡頭獲得滋養、獲得學習。","今天的主題是妨害司法公正罪，我的主張是修法不要為急而急，不要為快而快，不要只做半套。當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就作出了決議，確實要研議相關妨害司法公正罪的內容，法務部的版本在2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院，到今天是過了1,759天，卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了，是為了力求周延，為求慎重，對話再對話，凝聚共識，而不是推卸也不是延宕，更不是怠惰，我可以接受，我可以理解，因為這樣一個重要的修法，都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹。","所以我在這裡具體提出，其實整個全方位地來看看妨害司法公正罪，除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪，他們都有提到的司法關說罪，乃至於在野黨版本也都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外，其實更完備的還有幾個面向，譬如說湮滅證據罪，譬如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪，譬如說藐視法庭罪，我知道法務部想提，但司法院有不同意見，所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解，要整個全套系統性地去理解，訂定一個妨害司法公正罪，每一個面向都不可偏廢，而不是只有現在在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標！次長同意我的主張嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：這裡都做出來，國、眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保潛逃罪、恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關說罪，但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪目前是付之闕如的，我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由，不要只修半套。","民眾黨甚至……聚焦在司法關說罪，對不起，最後一分鐘。關於司法關說罪，我主張要擴大打擊範圍，因為現在民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法關說者，吳思瑤的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告，你們認為實務上若發生對承辦法官、檢察官的長官關說的情形，其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要，所以吳思瑤的主張是，納入法官、檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象，而且他的行為除了關說之外，也應當更擴大範圍，在請託跟施壓的層面要予以容納。","因為我很遺憾的說，立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於個案，乃至於對於司法介入或干預的作為，所以我更為嚴謹地，我希望可以針對第一百七十二條之五具體地作出我的建議，就是向承辦法官、檢察官或其監督長官不法請託、關說、施壓者都要一併成為處罰的標的，訂定相關的罰則。我認為我這樣的主張是擴大打擊，也是現在的必要，否則外力的介入，對於長官們的施壓或是關說、各種方式的請託，也就來自於政治力，我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍、對自己嚴格地審視跟課責。我不曉得法務部代表、司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎？就是針對這個關說的部分。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：同意。來，司法院。"],["朱法官嘉川：就相關的政策決定部分，司法院都予以尊重。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我認為我們往這個方向，我相信在野黨委員也會支持，我們一起來自我課責跟自律，我們如果要訂非法關說罪，我們就訂得明確、擴大打擊面，我會爭取大家支持。然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出部版、院版，然後還要會銜司法院，求好而不是求快，我會繼續努力下去，也會監督你們。謝謝主席、謝謝次長，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","請林思銘委員代理主席。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"154707","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154707","tool":"pyannote","id":"154707-pyannote"},"job_id":"LU7Vo2MzwyLCPdsR","queued_at":"2024-07-11 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621.452, \"text\": \"報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 595.309, \"end\": 595.59, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 595.59, \"end\": 595.79, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 595.79, \"end\": 596.27, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 596.27, \"end\": 596.59, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 596.59, \"end\": 596.731, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 596.731, \"end\": 596.971, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 596.971, \"end\": 597.952, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"頁\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 597.952, \"end\": 598.272, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 598.272, \"end\": 598.552, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 598.552, \"end\": 599.233, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 599.233, 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\"去\", \"start\": 777.876, \"end\": 778.077, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 778.077, \"end\": 778.517, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 778.517, \"end\": 778.657, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 778.657, \"end\": 779.118, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 779.118, \"end\": 779.618, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 779.618, \"end\": 779.738, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 779.738, \"end\": 779.919, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 779.919, \"end\": 779.939, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,489 --> 00:00:22,692\n謝謝主席有請徐次長跟我們司法院的代表朱法官我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範的審理其實本期在這裡這個會期我從教育文化的領域那一角\n\n2\n00:00:23,612 --> 00:00:37,664\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會\n\n3\n00:00:39,244 --> 00:01:03,506\n一個以立法院最大、絕對的國會優位的原則下立出來、修出來的惡法除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關嚴重地破壞台灣的憲政體制以及權力分立它就是毀憲亂政,莫此為勝但是往正面來看正因為國會這樣的惡搞\n\n4\n00:01:06,838 --> 00:01:33,658\n三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六\n\n5\n00:01:34,739 --> 00:01:59,166\n不只是立法院的四周也包括全台灣的各個地點各個角落很多的年輕世代青鳥們大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課一堂珍貴的公民課我認為這也是珍貴的意義另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭\n\n6\n00:02:00,031 --> 00:02:26,402\n我想這是台灣有史以來最多人在關注觀看憲法法庭直播的史上第一次同時這也是全台灣一起來上一堂憲法課法律課非常珍貴的時間所以我們的召委昨天也一起出席了我也是申請方的代表\n\n7\n00:02:27,796 --> 00:02:31,116\n大法官不是特別對國民黨民眾黨的立委嚴格\n\n8\n00:02:32,213 --> 00:02:59,098\n大法官憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰當然要嚴格的檢視所以我認為有人要不斷的毀憲亂政摧毀台灣的民主的另外一個面向我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產留給台灣社會我想我們今天在這裡我在國會與眾心長\n\n9\n00:03:01,499 --> 00:03:11,148\n但是非常遺憾憲法法庭還沒有審理之前甚至還沒有受理之前我們看看國民黨的委員們\n\n10\n00:03:13,503 --> 00:03:35,221\n從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗再批判大法官沒有民意基礎再到要求大法官要自重愛洗羽毛甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權做出因應這是還沒受理前的國民黨喔\n\n11\n00:03:36,877 --> 00:03:52,855\n昨天憲法法庭開了憲法法庭的當庭民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題太荒謬了\n\n12\n00:03:53,636 --> 00:04:11,058\n甚至到今天憲法法庭開完的今天國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會繼續的來鬥臭憲法法庭繼續的抹綠這些大法官國民黨的記者會的主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治\n\n13\n00:04:12,250 --> 00:04:40,962\n我今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應憲法法庭基於憲法的授權何錯之有昨天立法院的機關代表們國眾黨的委員說程序不完備所謂的暫時處分因為它的性質其實開庭並非必要甚至不是常態而且是第一次吧我說的沒有錯吧\n\n14\n00:04:42,113 --> 00:05:02,350\n所以說憲法法庭是特別慎重的過去不需要就暫時處分這種特別開庭因為慎重因為尊重立法院所以特別召開準備庭所有的程序該上網的上網該可以調閱的卷證都完全的提供程序哪裡不完備\n\n15\n00:05:03,251 --> 00:05:25,802\n如果國民黨民眾黨的委員在批判大法官程序不完備那請好好思考自己在審議強行碾壓國會擴權法案的時候程序有完備嗎?程序不正義在國會完全被踐踏的第二點有委員說害他這幾天都只睡三個小時好辛苦喔準備時間不足\n\n16\n00:05:27,691 --> 00:05:41,844\n當國民黨可以在今年的三月八號民眾黨是二月二十號就提出立法院職權刑事法乃至於刑法的修正案你們送出一個違憲的版本的時候你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰時間不足嗎\n\n17\n00:05:47,069 --> 00:06:00,241\n甚至你們最後一刻黑箱橋條文我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是事先比要被表決的條文是什麼比民進黨的委員都預先知道因為當時他們列為最高機密\n\n18\n00:06:01,414 --> 00:06:16,232\n五季不對等嗎?我要再還原那天在朝野協商韓院長主持的民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表讓國民黨民眾黨代表包括訴訟代理人民進黨是禮讓的\n\n19\n00:06:18,274 --> 00:06:36,725\n但是另外這邊有人說12比3為什麼這邊是12因為有四個申請的機關總統府行政院監察院立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講\n\n20\n00:06:39,443 --> 00:07:00,906\n四個機關分享三十分鐘但是立法院的機關代表就使用三十分鐘完全是均等甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播是誰占用了更多的時間大法官也充分的讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見不是嗎所以沒有武器不對等這件事\n\n21\n00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:28,817\n昨天大法官真的是只求對決了但是大法官是做求給立法院的機關代表委員們充分的可以針對是不是有違憲或者是他們主張合憲充分的一題又一題給機會再給機會聚焦再聚焦給予立法院的機關代表幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應\n\n22\n00:07:30,037 --> 00:07:44,864\n所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害\n\n23\n00:07:46,220 --> 00:07:47,641\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n24\n00:08:06,806 --> 00:08:30,169\n今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁\n\n25\n00:08:31,385 --> 00:08:54,533\n法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰\n\n26\n00:08:55,453 --> 00:09:18,969\n我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹下一頁所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外\n\n27\n00:09:21,471 --> 00:09:26,799\n其實更完備的還有幾個面向比如說淹滅證據罪比如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪比如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見\n\n28\n00:09:34,554 --> 00:09:53,616\n所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎\n\n29\n00:09:55,309 --> 00:10:21,452\n報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁\n\n30\n00:10:22,711 --> 00:10:38,807\n民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者\n\n31\n00:10:39,668 --> 00:11:01,046\n五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象\n\n32\n00:11:03,388 --> 00:11:15,683\n而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁\n\n33\n00:11:17,062 --> 00:11:43,969\n因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託\n\n34\n00:11:47,031 --> 00:12:05,870\n關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓\n\n35\n00:12:07,432 --> 00:12:23,243\n或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分\n\n36\n00:12:25,865 --> 00:12:48,947\n法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板\n\n37\n00:12:49,668 --> 00:12:59,939\n院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n489\t22692\t謝謝主席有請徐次長跟我們司法院的代表朱法官我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範的審理其實本期在這裡這個會期我從教育文化的領域那一角\n23612\t37664\t條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會\n39244\t63506\t一個以立法院最大、絕對的國會優位的原則下立出來、修出來的惡法除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關嚴重地破壞台灣的憲政體制以及權力分立它就是毀憲亂政,莫此為勝但是往正面來看正因為國會這樣的惡搞\n66838\t93658\t三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六\n94739\t119166\t不只是立法院的四周也包括全台灣的各個地點各個角落很多的年輕世代青鳥們大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課一堂珍貴的公民課我認為這也是珍貴的意義另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭\n120031\t146402\t我想這是台灣有史以來最多人在關注觀看憲法法庭直播的史上第一次同時這也是全台灣一起來上一堂憲法課法律課非常珍貴的時間所以我們的召委昨天也一起出席了我也是申請方的代表\n147796\t151116\t大法官不是特別對國民黨民眾黨的立委嚴格\n152213\t179098\t大法官憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰當然要嚴格的檢視所以我認為有人要不斷的毀憲亂政摧毀台灣的民主的另外一個面向我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產留給台灣社會我想我們今天在這裡我在國會與眾心長\n181499\t191148\t但是非常遺憾憲法法庭還沒有審理之前甚至還沒有受理之前我們看看國民黨的委員們\n193503\t215221\t從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗再批判大法官沒有民意基礎再到要求大法官要自重愛洗羽毛甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權做出因應這是還沒受理前的國民黨喔\n216877\t232855\t昨天憲法法庭開了憲法法庭的當庭民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題太荒謬了\n233636\t251058\t甚至到今天憲法法庭開完的今天國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會繼續的來鬥臭憲法法庭繼續的抹綠這些大法官國民黨的記者會的主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治\n252250\t280962\t我今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應憲法法庭基於憲法的授權何錯之有昨天立法院的機關代表們國眾黨的委員說程序不完備所謂的暫時處分因為它的性質其實開庭並非必要甚至不是常態而且是第一次吧我說的沒有錯吧\n282113\t302350\t所以說憲法法庭是特別慎重的過去不需要就暫時處分這種特別開庭因為慎重因為尊重立法院所以特別召開準備庭所有的程序該上網的上網該可以調閱的卷證都完全的提供程序哪裡不完備\n303251\t325802\t如果國民黨民眾黨的委員在批判大法官程序不完備那請好好思考自己在審議強行碾壓國會擴權法案的時候程序有完備嗎?程序不正義在國會完全被踐踏的第二點有委員說害他這幾天都只睡三個小時好辛苦喔準備時間不足\n327691\t341844\t當國民黨可以在今年的三月八號民眾黨是二月二十號就提出立法院職權刑事法乃至於刑法的修正案你們送出一個違憲的版本的時候你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰時間不足嗎\n347069\t360241\t甚至你們最後一刻黑箱橋條文我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是事先比要被表決的條文是什麼比民進黨的委員都預先知道因為當時他們列為最高機密\n361414\t376232\t五季不對等嗎?我要再還原那天在朝野協商韓院長主持的民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表讓國民黨民眾黨代表包括訴訟代理人民進黨是禮讓的\n378274\t396725\t但是另外這邊有人說12比3為什麼這邊是12因為有四個申請的機關總統府行政院監察院立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講\n399443\t420906\t四個機關分享三十分鐘但是立法院的機關代表就使用三十分鐘完全是均等甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播是誰占用了更多的時間大法官也充分的讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見不是嗎所以沒有武器不對等這件事\n422116\t448817\t昨天大法官真的是只求對決了但是大法官是做求給立法院的機關代表委員們充分的可以針對是不是有違憲或者是他們主張合憲充分的一題又一題給機會再給機會聚焦再聚焦給予立法院的機關代表幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應\n450037\t464864\t所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害\n466220\t467641\t三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n486806\t510169\t今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁\n511385\t534533\t法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰\n535453\t558969\t我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹下一頁所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外\n561471\t566799\t其實更完備的還有幾個面向比如說淹滅證據罪比如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪比如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見\n574554\t593616\t所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎\n595309\t621452\t報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁\n622711\t638807\t民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者\n639668\t661046\t五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象\n663388\t675683\t而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁\n677062\t703969\t因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託\n707031\t725870\t關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓\n727432\t743243\t或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分\n745865\t768947\t法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板\n769668\t779939\t院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請徐次長跟我們司法院的代表朱法官我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範的審理其實本期在這裡這個會期我從教育文化的領域那一角\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會\n一個以立法院最大、絕對的國會優位的原則下立出來、修出來的惡法除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關嚴重地破壞台灣的憲政體制以及權力分立它就是毀憲亂政,莫此為勝但是往正面來看正因為國會這樣的惡搞\n三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六\n不只是立法院的四周也包括全台灣的各個地點各個角落很多的年輕世代青鳥們大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課一堂珍貴的公民課我認為這也是珍貴的意義另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭\n我想這是台灣有史以來最多人在關注觀看憲法法庭直播的史上第一次同時這也是全台灣一起來上一堂憲法課法律課非常珍貴的時間所以我們的召委昨天也一起出席了我也是申請方的代表\n大法官不是特別對國民黨民眾黨的立委嚴格\n大法官憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰當然要嚴格的檢視所以我認為有人要不斷的毀憲亂政摧毀台灣的民主的另外一個面向我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產留給台灣社會我想我們今天在這裡我在國會與眾心長\n但是非常遺憾憲法法庭還沒有審理之前甚至還沒有受理之前我們看看國民黨的委員們\n從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗再批判大法官沒有民意基礎再到要求大法官要自重愛洗羽毛甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權做出因應這是還沒受理前的國民黨喔\n昨天憲法法庭開了憲法法庭的當庭民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題太荒謬了\n甚至到今天憲法法庭開完的今天國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會繼續的來鬥臭憲法法庭繼續的抹綠這些大法官國民黨的記者會的主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治\n我今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應憲法法庭基於憲法的授權何錯之有昨天立法院的機關代表們國眾黨的委員說程序不完備所謂的暫時處分因為它的性質其實開庭並非必要甚至不是常態而且是第一次吧我說的沒有錯吧\n所以說憲法法庭是特別慎重的過去不需要就暫時處分這種特別開庭因為慎重因為尊重立法院所以特別召開準備庭所有的程序該上網的上網該可以調閱的卷證都完全的提供程序哪裡不完備\n如果國民黨民眾黨的委員在批判大法官程序不完備那請好好思考自己在審議強行碾壓國會擴權法案的時候程序有完備嗎?程序不正義在國會完全被踐踏的第二點有委員說害他這幾天都只睡三個小時好辛苦喔準備時間不足\n當國民黨可以在今年的三月八號民眾黨是二月二十號就提出立法院職權刑事法乃至於刑法的修正案你們送出一個違憲的版本的時候你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰時間不足嗎\n甚至你們最後一刻黑箱橋條文我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是事先比要被表決的條文是什麼比民進黨的委員都預先知道因為當時他們列為最高機密\n五季不對等嗎?我要再還原那天在朝野協商韓院長主持的民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表讓國民黨民眾黨代表包括訴訟代理人民進黨是禮讓的\n但是另外這邊有人說12比3為什麼這邊是12因為有四個申請的機關總統府行政院監察院立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講\n四個機關分享三十分鐘但是立法院的機關代表就使用三十分鐘完全是均等甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播是誰占用了更多的時間大法官也充分的讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見不是嗎所以沒有武器不對等這件事\n昨天大法官真的是只求對決了但是大法官是做求給立法院的機關代表委員們充分的可以針對是不是有違憲或者是他們主張合憲充分的一題又一題給機會再給機會聚焦再聚焦給予立法院的機關代表幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應\n所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁\n法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰\n我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹下一頁所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外\n其實更完備的還有幾個面向比如說淹滅證據罪比如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪比如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見\n所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎\n報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁\n民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者\n五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象\n而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁\n因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託\n關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓\n或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分\n法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板\n院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.489 --> 00:22.692\n謝謝主席有請徐次長跟我們司法院的代表朱法官我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範的審理其實本期在這裡這個會期我從教育文化的領域那一角\n\n00:23.612 --> 00:37.664\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會\n\n00:39.244 --> 01:03.506\n一個以立法院最大、絕對的國會優位的原則下立出來、修出來的惡法除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關嚴重地破壞台灣的憲政體制以及權力分立它就是毀憲亂政,莫此為勝但是往正面來看正因為國會這樣的惡搞\n\n01:06.838 --> 01:33.658\n三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六\n\n01:34.739 --> 01:59.166\n不只是立法院的四周也包括全台灣的各個地點各個角落很多的年輕世代青鳥們大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課一堂珍貴的公民課我認為這也是珍貴的意義另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭\n\n02:00.031 --> 02:26.402\n我想這是台灣有史以來最多人在關注觀看憲法法庭直播的史上第一次同時這也是全台灣一起來上一堂憲法課法律課非常珍貴的時間所以我們的召委昨天也一起出席了我也是申請方的代表\n\n02:27.796 --> 02:31.116\n大法官不是特別對國民黨民眾黨的立委嚴格\n\n02:32.213 --> 02:59.098\n大法官憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰當然要嚴格的檢視所以我認為有人要不斷的毀憲亂政摧毀台灣的民主的另外一個面向我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產留給台灣社會我想我們今天在這裡我在國會與眾心長\n\n03:01.499 --> 03:11.148\n但是非常遺憾憲法法庭還沒有審理之前甚至還沒有受理之前我們看看國民黨的委員們\n\n03:13.503 --> 03:35.221\n從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗再批判大法官沒有民意基礎再到要求大法官要自重愛洗羽毛甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權做出因應這是還沒受理前的國民黨喔\n\n03:36.877 --> 03:52.855\n昨天憲法法庭開了憲法法庭的當庭民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題太荒謬了\n\n03:53.636 --> 04:11.058\n甚至到今天憲法法庭開完的今天國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會繼續的來鬥臭憲法法庭繼續的抹綠這些大法官國民黨的記者會的主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治\n\n04:12.250 --> 04:40.962\n我今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應憲法法庭基於憲法的授權何錯之有昨天立法院的機關代表們國眾黨的委員說程序不完備所謂的暫時處分因為它的性質其實開庭並非必要甚至不是常態而且是第一次吧我說的沒有錯吧\n\n04:42.113 --> 05:02.350\n所以說憲法法庭是特別慎重的過去不需要就暫時處分這種特別開庭因為慎重因為尊重立法院所以特別召開準備庭所有的程序該上網的上網該可以調閱的卷證都完全的提供程序哪裡不完備\n\n05:03.251 --> 05:25.802\n如果國民黨民眾黨的委員在批判大法官程序不完備那請好好思考自己在審議強行碾壓國會擴權法案的時候程序有完備嗎?程序不正義在國會完全被踐踏的第二點有委員說害他這幾天都只睡三個小時好辛苦喔準備時間不足\n\n05:27.691 --> 05:41.844\n當國民黨可以在今年的三月八號民眾黨是二月二十號就提出立法院職權刑事法乃至於刑法的修正案你們送出一個違憲的版本的時候你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰時間不足嗎\n\n05:47.069 --> 06:00.241\n甚至你們最後一刻黑箱橋條文我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是事先比要被表決的條文是什麼比民進黨的委員都預先知道因為當時他們列為最高機密\n\n06:01.414 --> 06:16.232\n五季不對等嗎?我要再還原那天在朝野協商韓院長主持的民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表讓國民黨民眾黨代表包括訴訟代理人民進黨是禮讓的\n\n06:18.274 --> 06:36.725\n但是另外這邊有人說12比3為什麼這邊是12因為有四個申請的機關總統府行政院監察院立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講\n\n06:39.443 --> 07:00.906\n四個機關分享三十分鐘但是立法院的機關代表就使用三十分鐘完全是均等甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播是誰占用了更多的時間大法官也充分的讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見不是嗎所以沒有武器不對等這件事\n\n07:02.116 --> 07:28.817\n昨天大法官真的是只求對決了但是大法官是做求給立法院的機關代表委員們充分的可以針對是不是有違憲或者是他們主張合憲充分的一題又一題給機會再給機會聚焦再聚焦給予立法院的機關代表幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應\n\n07:30.037 --> 07:44.864\n所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害\n\n07:46.220 --> 07:47.641\n三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n08:06.806 --> 08:30.169\n今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁\n\n08:31.385 --> 08:54.533\n法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰\n\n08:55.453 --> 09:18.969\n我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹下一頁所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外\n\n09:21.471 --> 09:26.799\n其實更完備的還有幾個面向比如說淹滅證據罪比如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪比如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見\n\n09:34.554 --> 09:53.616\n所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎\n\n09:55.309 --> 10:21.452\n報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁\n\n10:22.711 --> 10:38.807\n民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者\n\n10:39.668 --> 11:01.046\n五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象\n\n11:03.388 --> 11:15.683\n而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁\n\n11:17.062 --> 11:43.969\n因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託\n\n11:47.031 --> 12:05.870\n關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓\n\n12:07.432 --> 12:23.243\n或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分\n\n12:25.865 --> 12:48.947\n法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板\n\n12:49.668 --> 12:59.939\n院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.489,"end":22.692,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐次長跟我們司法院的代表朱法官我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範的審理其實本期在這裡這個會期我從教育文化的領域那一角"},{"start":23.612,"end":37.664,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會"},{"start":39.244,"end":63.506,"text":"一個以立法院最大、絕對的國會優位的原則下立出來、修出來的惡法除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關嚴重地破壞台灣的憲政體制以及權力分立它就是毀憲亂政,莫此為勝但是往正面來看正因為國會這樣的惡搞"},{"start":66.838,"end":93.658,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六"},{"start":94.739,"end":119.166,"text":"不只是立法院的四周也包括全台灣的各個地點各個角落很多的年輕世代青鳥們大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課一堂珍貴的公民課我認為這也是珍貴的意義另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭"},{"start":120.031,"end":146.402,"text":"我想這是台灣有史以來最多人在關注觀看憲法法庭直播的史上第一次同時這也是全台灣一起來上一堂憲法課法律課非常珍貴的時間所以我們的召委昨天也一起出席了我也是申請方的代表"},{"start":147.796,"end":151.116,"text":"大法官不是特別對國民黨民眾黨的立委嚴格"},{"start":152.213,"end":179.098,"text":"大法官憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰當然要嚴格的檢視所以我認為有人要不斷的毀憲亂政摧毀台灣的民主的另外一個面向我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產留給台灣社會我想我們今天在這裡我在國會與眾心長"},{"start":181.499,"end":191.148,"text":"但是非常遺憾憲法法庭還沒有審理之前甚至還沒有受理之前我們看看國民黨的委員們"},{"start":193.503,"end":215.221,"text":"從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗再批判大法官沒有民意基礎再到要求大法官要自重愛洗羽毛甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權做出因應這是還沒受理前的國民黨喔"},{"start":216.877,"end":232.855,"text":"昨天憲法法庭開了憲法法庭的當庭民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題太荒謬了"},{"start":233.636,"end":251.058,"text":"甚至到今天憲法法庭開完的今天國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會繼續的來鬥臭憲法法庭繼續的抹綠這些大法官國民黨的記者會的主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治"},{"start":252.25,"end":280.962,"text":"我今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應憲法法庭基於憲法的授權何錯之有昨天立法院的機關代表們國眾黨的委員說程序不完備所謂的暫時處分因為它的性質其實開庭並非必要甚至不是常態而且是第一次吧我說的沒有錯吧"},{"start":282.113,"end":302.35,"text":"所以說憲法法庭是特別慎重的過去不需要就暫時處分這種特別開庭因為慎重因為尊重立法院所以特別召開準備庭所有的程序該上網的上網該可以調閱的卷證都完全的提供程序哪裡不完備"},{"start":303.251,"end":325.802,"text":"如果國民黨民眾黨的委員在批判大法官程序不完備那請好好思考自己在審議強行碾壓國會擴權法案的時候程序有完備嗎?程序不正義在國會完全被踐踏的第二點有委員說害他這幾天都只睡三個小時好辛苦喔準備時間不足"},{"start":327.691,"end":341.844,"text":"當國民黨可以在今年的三月八號民眾黨是二月二十號就提出立法院職權刑事法乃至於刑法的修正案你們送出一個違憲的版本的時候你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰時間不足嗎"},{"start":347.069,"end":360.241,"text":"甚至你們最後一刻黑箱橋條文我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是事先比要被表決的條文是什麼比民進黨的委員都預先知道因為當時他們列為最高機密"},{"start":361.414,"end":376.232,"text":"五季不對等嗎?我要再還原那天在朝野協商韓院長主持的民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表讓國民黨民眾黨代表包括訴訟代理人民進黨是禮讓的"},{"start":378.274,"end":396.725,"text":"但是另外這邊有人說12比3為什麼這邊是12因為有四個申請的機關總統府行政院監察院立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講"},{"start":399.443,"end":420.906,"text":"四個機關分享三十分鐘但是立法院的機關代表就使用三十分鐘完全是均等甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播是誰占用了更多的時間大法官也充分的讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見不是嗎所以沒有武器不對等這件事"},{"start":422.116,"end":448.817,"text":"昨天大法官真的是只求對決了但是大法官是做求給立法院的機關代表委員們充分的可以針對是不是有違憲或者是他們主張合憲充分的一題又一題給機會再給機會聚焦再聚焦給予立法院的機關代表幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應"},{"start":450.037,"end":464.864,"text":"所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害"},{"start":466.22,"end":467.641,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":486.806,"end":510.169,"text":"今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁"},{"start":511.385,"end":534.533,"text":"法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰"},{"start":535.453,"end":558.969,"text":"我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹下一頁所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外"},{"start":561.471,"end":566.799,"text":"其實更完備的還有幾個面向比如說淹滅證據罪比如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪比如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見"},{"start":574.554,"end":593.616,"text":"所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎"},{"start":595.309,"end":621.452,"text":"報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁"},{"start":622.711,"end":638.807,"text":"民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者"},{"start":639.668,"end":661.046,"text":"五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象"},{"start":663.388,"end":675.683,"text":"而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁"},{"start":677.062,"end":703.969,"text":"因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託"},{"start":707.031,"end":725.87,"text":"關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓"},{"start":727.432,"end":743.243,"text":"或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分"},{"start":745.865,"end":768.947,"text":"法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板"},{"start":769.668,"end":779.939,"text":"院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝"}]}}}}