{"date":"2024-09-20","影片長度":"00:15:48","end_time":"2024-09-20T15:51:08+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154859","gazette":{"lineno":837,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（15時35分）主席，我們是不是有請院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長好。我想這段時間辛苦了，尤其在凱米颱風之後，有很多水災、很多救災，甚至花東的工作，這段時間院長可以說是到處奔波，真的是很辛苦。","今天透過總質詢，我還是想把時間用在跟院長聊一下國土計畫法，我們知道國土計畫法是在104年的時候，當時的行政院長是江宜樺，是他所提出來的，在105年馬英九還在執政的時候完成三讀，上路的時候是在105年的5月1號，等於是馬英九要交接給蔡英文總統的時候國土計畫法正式上路。","它的規定裡面是分為一階、二階跟三階，首先一階的部分是在107年4月30號全國國土計畫公告施行，二階是在110年4月30號縣市國土計畫公告施行，依國土計畫法第四十五條，二階之後要到第三階，在4年內必須要一併公告國土功能分區圖，也就是在114年4月30號以前，國土功能分區圖必須所有縣市都要公告，然後要全面實施，也就是區域計畫法即將要被廢止。我想要請教院長的是，到目前為止還沒有繳交國土功能分區圖的縣市，就我目前所掌握的還有新北市、臺中市、桃園市、苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、臺東縣以及嘉義市……"],["卓院長榮泰：9個縣市。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有9個縣市。"],["卓院長榮泰：還有9個縣市，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長，如果照這樣分析起來，在明年4月30號以前我們要全國一致的一併公告這件事情，這樣來得及嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，賴總統上任之後還是持續的請內政部、農業部全力推動國土計畫法，能夠讓它順利的上路，所以也併請尚未送達功能圖的各個縣市能夠在法定時間，也就是今年的6月30號能夠送達，但是到目前為止，誠如委員所說的，還有9個縣市還沒有送來，但其中有若干縣市是允諾會在9月底、年底送來，但是不一定到時候是不是真的如此，但是有這樣的允諾。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是有允諾啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，但是現在……"],["蔡委員易餘：院長，我跟你講，我們在地方看到的是，他們允諾要送，但是目前還沒有送的，我看除了苗栗市是無黨籍，其他好像都是國民黨籍……"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：尤其包括像雲林，我看他召開很多公聽會，全部都在批判，而且這個批判是帶有製造假消息的，他們說未來國土計畫法上路以後，你們祖先的墳墓也會出問題，因為現在很多農地我們知道過去那上面是有墳墓的，他們說這樣墳墓也會出問題；又說國土計畫上路以後不能蓋農舍，農地農舍都沒有機會了。事實上我們所知道的就是，如果以現在內政部所公告的，他們說了很多的一些談參，一些讓我們可以去了解的，事實上國土計畫法有一些部分是有逐步在放寬，等於和地方都有在做一些微調。不過我跟院長講，很麻煩的就是，這個微調在條文的本身是看不到的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果以我們看起來，在國土計畫法第二十一條所規定的「農業發展地區」第一類：供農業生產及其必要之產銷設施使用並禁止或限制其他使用。我覺得「禁止或限制其他使用」這幾個字很嚴重，所以它等於用這幾個字把地封起來，所以大家都說，哇，原來農一的土地什麼都不能用了，所以現在大家都說這樣農二比較好，可是這個很矛盾啊！因為我們知道，所謂的農一跟農二它到底是怎麼演變來的。就是現在如果在區域計畫法是特別農業區，未來就可能會變農一；如果是一般農業區，未來可能會變農二。現在農業區的區分都又以過去有沒有灌溉，就是說它以前是否有做它們的……"],["陳部長駿季：農水路。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，然後來認定它們是屬於特別農業區或一般農業區。現在這樣演變過來的時候，造成很多農民他們誤會說，我的農地你現在要變成農一之後，以後我就動彈不得了。而且這個矛盾又在於說，我們知道過去若是屬於特別農業區，它大概就是有灌溉，有灌溉就是以種水稻比較多；如果是一般農業區，它可能是低地力，也可能是地層下陷，或者是它位處風頭水尾，沒有水可以灌溉，所以那個土地可能會種雜糧比較多，但是這個矛盾就在於說，我們強調糧食安全，可是我們的稻米是生產過剩的，我們整個臺灣的水稻生產過剩。我們現在水稻生產過剩，你又是說農一的土地必須要維持，然後一般農業區，就是農二的土地，未來它是比較有彈性，但是我們水稻又不需要那麼多，我們需要的農業糧食安全應該要在黃小玉，結果種植黃小玉的土地，相對的它的權利比較少，這樣看起來整個都矛盾，整個都矛盾，所以農民等於說，哇，這個國土計畫法上路他有很多心聲，然後他們在這段時間沒有辦法好好地溝通，又加上有些地方政府他根本是抵制型的在跟農民辦公聽會，你說他要送這個分區圖，我不太相信他是真的要做分區圖，他根本就是在抵制的。所以，院長，我具體提一個建議，就是這個國土計畫法到目前為止看起來，我們現在貿然上路會有很大的民怨，那與其我們預見這樣的情況之下，我們是不是稍微緩衝一點，我們再增加比較長的時間來做有效地溝通，讓國土計畫法的上路可以更加地順遂？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我尊重委員你的意見，但是請讓內政部劉部長談談看，這段時間他努力推動這個國土計畫法的過程，以及他現在對於整體的狀況有什麼樣的分析。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，請說。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員。委員跟二十幾個立法委員非常關心農民，對於農業，你也有正確的觀念，這就是我們過去一段時間在推動的時候遇到的困擾，因為國土計畫法實際上是要規範全臺灣國土能不能好好的利用，而不是把國土計畫法拿來當成生財的工具。有若干縣市政府，他們在四年前，也是這個縣長的名義就直接公布他的國土計畫，但是四年後，他現在所說的方向跟他四年前所公布的，其實已經相差太多，完全不一樣。而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說，你剛剛所提到的這個農一每一公頃要四十萬塊，然後農二每一公頃要三十萬塊，結果農地就變成是拿來炒作，這個完全不符合國土計畫法現在所要推動的方向。而且我們認為，國土計畫法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30日一併來公布，才能夠好好的規範全臺灣各地國土正確的運用。但是我們也呼籲，國土計畫法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤，因為掛鉤下去的話，對於農業部，他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用，有他們的方法跟推動的方向，反而會讓人家錯以為說，國土計畫法是來做框架，然後限制我們農民，限制我們農地的發展，所以我建議說，是不是蔡委員可以讓我們的農業部長把這一陣子他們所推動的方向還有修法的範圍，跟委員報告一下？"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，簡短說明好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。怎麼樣讓臺灣的農業永續發展是農業部的使命跟責任，這樣一個政策的推動跟協助，它不會因為國土計畫的推動是如期推動或延後而有所停頓，這個是我們一直在做的，這是第一點。第二點就是整個農業不是只有生產，其實在我們的國家希望工程裡面，它是以農村為發展中心的整個永續農業的發展，所以農一、農二基本上都是我們優良的農地在做生產的基地，對農業部來講，這兩個都一樣是我們重要的基地。農四的部分是跟鄉村有關，就是我們正在進行鄉村所有的規劃，未來包括委員所關心的農舍部分，它不會跟國土計畫掛鉤，它有其特定的興建農舍的辦法，所以在農業發展區裡面，你要做農舍的興建，都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的，那很可惜的就是現在很多外界的聲音都把農地當作一個土地開發在炒作啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，對，你這樣講，我清楚，所以我要強調的就是，目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深，這主要還是來自它的文字本身，以及國土計畫應該要有23項子法，這23項子法目前有部分都還沒有出來嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，跟您補充一下，在24項裡面有13項已經公布，另外9項現在正在預告當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以就在預告嘛！所以我就說對這些子法我們應該要跟國土計畫一併去看待，你說事實上有很多是有放寬可以使用的，但是在母法的規定裡面，它的文字就是寫「禁止或限制其他使用」，就是說這樣的文字事實上框在那邊，變成整個大家就用這樣去渲染。"],["劉部長世芳：但是縣市政府在溝通的時候，他們都非常的了解，所以我剛才提到，有些縣市政府他們自己的地政局跟他們的城鄉發展局兩邊的意見都不一樣，所以事實上我們在溝通的過程當中一直告訴他，包括您剛所列的不得增建或改建，這是一個錯誤的假訊息，剛剛農業部已經跟你講過了，在農一裡面要做使用的，包括農產儲等等，其實都還是繼續使用當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：基本上，第三十二條的文字也是寫「除准修繕外，不得增建或改建」。"],["劉部長世芳：但是現在如果是用途的話，也沒有限縮。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以我現在要跟部長說，這就是這個母法的問題，這個母法的問題在那裡……"],["劉部長世芳：寫不清楚。"],["蔡委員易餘：你說我們現在有一些配套措施，或者是我們一些對應的子法有怎麼樣的辦法，可是這些東西進來都跟母法衝突啊！所以我認為我們需要時間，就國土計畫法我們是不是再通盤來檢討一下，然後我們不要貿然的，就是我們在時間上自己綁死自己，所以在這段時間大家溝通不清楚，我們就說：好，上路！我覺得這樣的話風險很大。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝蔡委員。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我認為我們大家的目標一致，我們希望臺灣所有的土地利用必須要有更完善的規劃，以後我們的土地是用計畫引導的方式，對這個我們的方向一致，但是在目前大家誤會這麼深的情況之下，是不是能有一個更妥善的時間來做更好的溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我跟委員報告，剛剛委員說過，這個法是在2016年的5月制定完成、實施，我也不相信當初制定這個法會完全沒有尊重、顧慮到農民的權益，但是現在看起來，當中若干的解釋跟文字用語確實是讓人家在解釋上或實施之後會產生一些疑慮。況且現在就像剛剛一開始說的，還有9個縣市沒有送來，我們除了請內政部繼續請地方政府完成這個功能圖並送來之外，如果真的無法送來，那麼我們在明年4月要全國實施上路是有困難的，因為依照國土計畫法第四十五條規定，它是要一併公告的，是不能夠割裂的。事實上，因為有9個縣市沒有送來，我們有這種事實上的困難，法律上如果沒有一併公告，我們也有法律上執法的困難。我也有聽到來自縣市、一些農民團體，甚至來自大院、黨團的一些意見，還有一些外界的聲音，都希望我們能夠再慎重，關於這個部分，容許我跟內政部、農業部討論，我們就事實的困難、法律的困難，參考外界的各種聲音，我們會做最終的決定。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這部分就要拜託院長跟兩位部長做整體的評估，然後讓農民有信心，我們這樣一個法令的上路對他們是更有好處，而不是要綁死他們，我覺得一定要讓他們很清楚地知道這一點，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：況且我們不論做了什麼決定，農業部對於農業、農民的補助，在整個總統的政策底下、幸福農家的這個政策底下，我們絕對不會去輕忽、忽略了對農民相關的補助，而且無論做什麼決定，我們只會在制度上、在補助上更精進、更周全。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，因為這個法案是這樣，它是訂4月30日，如果到時候事實上也沒辦法的話，可能要透過立法院的修法，所以我們還是需要整個行政團隊有一個明確的指示，可能說要怎麼樣去配合，讓整個國土計畫法上路至少不會像目前為止大家充滿著誤解，然後必須要有效地溝通，等於說這個法律要上路，大家都覺得可以接受再讓它上路，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員所說的，希望我們不要增加誤解，而且能夠把這個事情做一個圓緩的解決，這個意見我們都尊重，我們會在這個立場上來做討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"age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\"很麻煩的就是這個違條在條文的本身是看不到的如果我們來看起來你在國土計劃法第21條他所規定的農業發展地區第一類供農業生產或其必要之產銷設施使用並限制或禁止其他使用\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 273.676, \"end\": 273.876, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 273.876, \"end\": 274.377, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 274.377, \"end\": 274.477, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 274.477, \"end\": 274.677, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 274.677, \"end\": 277.079, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 277.079, \"end\": 277.539, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 277.539, \"end\": 277.699, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 277.699, \"end\": 277.839, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 277.839, \"end\": 277.999, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 277.999, \"end\": 278.18, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 278.18, 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\"業\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 489.187, \"end\": 489.207, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 489.207, \"end\": 489.247, \"score\": 0.493}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 489.247, \"end\": 489.467, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"客\", \"start\": 489.467, \"end\": 489.487, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 489.487, \"end\": 490.048, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 490.048, \"end\": 490.168, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 490.168, \"end\": 490.328, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 490.328, \"end\": 490.448, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 490.448, \"end\": 490.588, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 490.588, \"end\": 490.729, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 490.729, \"end\": 490.869, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 490.869, 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\"start\": 522.179, \"end\": 522.339, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 522.339, \"end\": 522.559, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 522.559, \"end\": 522.679, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 522.679, \"end\": 522.7, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 523.34, \"end\": 549.306, \"text\": \"而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說你剛所提到的這個農一呢每一公頃要40萬塊然後農二呢每一公頃要30萬塊就變成農地是變成拿來炒作這個完全不符合國土計劃法現在所要推動的方向而且呢我們會認為國土計劃法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30號一併來公布才能夠好好的規範全台灣各地國土的正確的運用\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 523.34, \"end\": 523.5, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 523.5, \"end\": 523.64, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 523.64, \"end\": 524.12, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 524.12, \"end\": 524.74, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"謠\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 524.74, \"end\": 524.9, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 524.9, 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{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 542.604, \"end\": 543.184, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 543.184, \"end\": 543.404, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 543.404, \"end\": 543.604, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 543.604, \"end\": 543.945, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 543.945, \"end\": 544.705, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 544.705, \"end\": 545.365, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"併\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 545.365, \"end\": 545.565, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 545.565, \"end\": 545.805, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 545.805, \"end\": 545.965, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 545.965, \"end\": 546.265, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 546.265, \"end\": 546.465, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 546.465, 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\"但是我們也會呼籲國土計劃法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤因為掛鉤下去的話對於農業部他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用有他們的方法跟推動的方向反而會讓人家錯以為說國土計劃法是來做框架然後限制我們農民然後限制我們農地的發展\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 550.666, \"end\": 550.866, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 550.866, \"end\": 551.146, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 551.146, \"end\": 551.447, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 551.447, \"end\": 551.687, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"呼\", \"start\": 551.687, \"end\": 552.547, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"籲\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 552.547, \"end\": 553.128, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 553.128, \"end\": 553.348, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 553.348, \"end\": 553.468, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 553.468, \"end\": 553.708, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 553.708, \"end\": 554.589, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 573.783, \"end\": 573.823, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 573.823, \"end\": 573.923, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 573.923, \"end\": 573.983, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 573.983, \"end\": 574.163, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 574.163, \"end\": 574.183, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 574.183, \"end\": 574.223, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 574.223, \"end\": 574.243, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 574.243, \"end\": 574.343, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 574.343, \"end\": 574.363, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 574.363, \"end\": 574.383, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 574.383, \"end\": 574.423, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 574.423, \"end\": 574.524, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 574.524, \"end\": 574.664, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 574.664, \"end\": 574.684, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}]}, {\"start\": 596.732, \"end\": 596.952, \"text\": \"﹚蔡易餘﹚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"蔡\", \"start\": 596.732, \"end\": 596.932, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 596.932, \"end\": 596.952, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"餘\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}]}, {\"start\": 625.338, \"end\": 647.76, \"text\": \"農事的部分是跟鄉村有關的就是我們未來我們正在規劃鄉村的所有的規劃那未來像包括委員所關心的就是農舍的部分他不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他有他特定的興建農舍的辦法所以在農業發展區裡面你要做農舍的一個興建都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 625.338, \"end\": 625.499, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 625.499, \"end\": 625.659, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 625.659, \"end\": 625.779, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 625.779, \"end\": 625.979, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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\"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 637.79, \"end\": 638.891, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"掛\"}, {\"word\": \"鉤\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 638.891, \"end\": 639.132, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 639.132, \"end\": 639.292, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 639.292, \"end\": 639.552, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 639.552, \"end\": 639.792, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 639.792, \"end\": 640.012, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 640.012, \"end\": 640.473, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"興\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 640.473, \"end\": 640.853, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"舍\", \"start\": 640.853, \"end\": 641.033, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 641.033, \"end\": 641.394, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 641.394, \"end\": 641.854, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 641.854, \"end\": 641.974, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 641.974, \"end\": 642.094, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 642.094, \"end\": 642.695, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 642.695, \"end\": 643.295, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 643.295, \"end\": 643.696, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 643.696, \"end\": 643.816, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 643.816, \"end\": 643.996, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 643.996, \"end\": 644.477, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"舍\", \"start\": 644.477, \"end\": 645.057, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 645.057, \"end\": 645.177, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 645.177, \"end\": 645.678, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"興\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 645.678, \"end\": 645.958, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 645.958, \"end\": 646.238, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 646.238, \"end\": 646.639, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 646.639, \"end\": 646.759, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 646.759, \"end\": 647.079, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 647.079, \"end\": 647.239, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 647.239, \"end\": 647.379, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 647.379, \"end\": 647.74, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 647.74, \"end\": 647.76, \"score\": 0.987}]}, {\"start\": 648.18, \"end\": 649.262, \"text\": \"目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 648.18, \"end\": 648.32, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 648.32, \"end\": 648.481, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 648.481, \"end\": 648.681, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 648.681, \"end\": 648.861, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 648.861, \"end\": 648.981, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 648.981, \"end\": 649.001, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 649.001, \"end\": 649.021, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 649.021, \"end\": 649.121, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 649.121, \"end\": 649.241, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 649.241, \"end\": 649.262, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 666.158, \"end\": 689.16, \"text\": \"主要還是來自他的文字的本身以及國土計畫應該有23項執法這23項執法目前保魂都還沒有出來沒有跟您補充一下24項裡面13項已經公佈另外9項現在正在預告當中所以就在預告所以我說這些執法應該跟國土計畫要一併來我們要一併去看待\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 666.158, \"end\": 666.298, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 666.298, \"end\": 666.619, \"score\": 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00:00:55,989\n我想這段時間辛苦尤其由凱米颱風之後有很多關係到水災然後關係到很多救災甚至花東的一個工作這段時間我看院長可以說是到處奔波所以真的很辛苦我想今天透過總諮詢我還是想把時間用在跟院長聊一下這個國土計劃法\n\n3\n00:00:58,121 --> 00:01:08,453\n國有計劃法我們知道他是在104年的時候當時候的行政院長是江以化他所提出來那在105年馬英九\n\n4\n00:01:11,893 --> 00:01:40,845\n還在執政的時候完成三讀那上路的時候是在105年的5月1號當時是馬英九要告知蔡英文總統的時候國土計劃法可以說是正式上路那以他的一個規定裡面他分為一階二階跟三階首先一階的部分他在107年4月30全國的國土計劃是公告施行\n\n5\n00:01:41,545 --> 00:02:10,263\n二階第110年的4月30號現式的國土計劃公告施行那一國土計劃第45條二階之後要到第三階類他就也就是在四年內必須要一併公告國土功能分區圖那也就是在114年的4月30前國土功能分區圖必須要全數的縣市都要公告然後要全面實施那也就是\n\n6\n00:02:10,983 --> 00:02:33,931\n區域計劃法即將要被廢止那我想要請教院長的就是說那到目前為止還沒有繳交國土功能分區圖的縣市就我目前掌握還有新北市、台中市、桃園市苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、台東縣以及嘉義市\n\n7\n00:02:35,230 --> 00:02:45,555\n還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市\n\n8\n00:02:53,517 --> 00:03:19,533\n賴總統上任之後還是持續的請內政部請農業部全力在推動國土計劃法能夠讓他順利的上路所以也並請上位送達功能圖的各個縣市能夠在法定時間就是今年的6月30號能夠送達但到目前為止陳如委員所說還有9個縣市沒有送來但其中有若干縣市是允諾說會在9月底啦年底送來\n\n9\n00:03:20,293 --> 00:03:48,872\n但是這不一定會到時候是不是真的如此但是有這樣的一個允諾有允諾啦但是我現在我們在地方看到的是說他們說允諾有送因為目前大概還沒有送的我看除了苗栗是無黨籍啦其他好像都國民黨籍啦尤其包括像雲林我看他召開好多公聽會全部都在批判而且這個批判是帶有製造假消息\n\n10\n00:03:51,487 --> 00:03:53,169\n國土計劃上路後,國土計劃上路後\n\n11\n00:04:06,513 --> 00:04:31,092\n不能去任何地方都沒有機會事實上我們知道的就是說如果我們以現在內政部他們所公告他們說了很多的一些談判一些讓我們可以去瞭解的事實上國有計劃法就有一些部分它有逐步在放寬在內政部都有做一些微調\n\n12\n00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:56,915\n很麻煩的就是這個違條在條文的本身是看不到的如果我們來看起來你在國土計劃法第21條他所規定的農業發展地區第一類供農業生產或其必要之產銷設施使用並限制或禁止其他使用\n\n13\n00:04:58,510 --> 00:05:10,658\n我覺得這幾個字很嚴重禁止或限制其他使用所以一定要這幾天都封起來所以說大家就會說喔哇原來農醫的土地什麼都不能用了\n\n14\n00:05:12,083 --> 00:05:26,296\n所以現在大家都說不然農二比較好可是這個很矛盾啊因為我們知道所謂的農一跟農二他到底是怎麼演變來的有說現在你如果是區域計畫法你如果是特別農業區他未來可能會變農一你如果一般農業區他未來可能會變農二\n\n15\n00:05:33,302 --> 00:05:43,066\n現在我們的農業區的區分都又以過去有沒有灌溉就是說以前有做農水農來認定說他們是屬於特別農業區或一般農\n\n16\n00:05:53,103 --> 00:06:00,926\n他現在這樣演變過來的時候造成很多農民他們是誤會的是說我的農地你現在在幫我變農醫療醫療我就動彈不得而且這個矛盾又在於說我們知道說\n\n17\n00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:35,167\n現在國有區是屬於特別農業區他大概就是有灌溉有灌溉他就是水稻比較多如果是一般農業區他可能是低地利也可能是低層下限或者是他沒有他姓洪濤的水位沒有水塘灌溉所以他可能會進展更多但是這個矛盾就在於說我們強調糧食安全可是我們的稻米是生產過剩的\n\n18\n00:06:36,857 --> 00:07:00,886\n我們整個臺灣的水稻生產過剩所以現在水稻生產過剩你又說農業的土地必須要維持然後我們一般農的就是農惡的土地未來他是有比較有彈性但是我們水稻又不需要那麼多我們需要的農業的糧食安全應該要在黃小玉結果黃小玉他相對的\n\n19\n00:07:02,825 --> 00:07:06,778\n相對的他的權力比較少這樣看起來整個都矛盾\n\n20\n00:07:08,528 --> 00:07:31,741\n整個都矛盾所以這個農民一定會說這個國土計劃法上路我有很多他有很多事情他們在這段時間沒有辦法好好地溝通又加上有些地方政府他根本是抵制型的在跟農民辦公廳會他根本說你要說他要上這個分區圖我不太相信他是真的要做分區圖他根本就是要抵制的\n\n21\n00:07:32,944 --> 00:07:54,679\n所以院長我具體一個建議就是這個國土計劃法到目前為止看起來我們現在茂囊上路會有很大的民怨那與其我們預見這樣的情況之下我們是不是稍微緩衝一點難得增加比較長的時間來做有效的溝通讓國土計劃的上路可以更加的順遂\n\n22\n00:07:55,974 --> 00:08:11,449\n我尊重委員的意見但是請讓內政部劉部長談談看這段時間他努力推動這個國土計劃法的過程其實他現在對於這個整體的狀況有什麼樣的分析請說感謝委員委員和二十幾位立法委員非常關心農民對農業也有政客的關聯這就是我們過去一段時間推動的時候當中的困擾\n\n23\n00:08:19,577 --> 00:08:42,700\n因為國土計劃法實際上是要規範全台灣國土能不能好好的利用而不是把國土計劃法拿成當然生財的工具有若干縣市政府他們在4年前也是這個縣長的名義就直接公布他的國土計劃但是4年後他現在所說的方向跟他4年前所公布的其實已經相差太多完全不一樣\n\n24\n00:08:43,340 --> 00:09:09,306\n而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說你剛所提到的這個農一呢每一公頃要40萬塊然後農二呢每一公頃要30萬塊就變成農地是變成拿來炒作這個完全不符合國土計劃法現在所要推動的方向而且呢我們會認為國土計劃法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30號一併來公布才能夠好好的規範全台灣各地國土的正確的運用\n\n25\n00:09:10,666 --> 00:09:32,863\n但是我們也會呼籲國土計劃法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤因為掛鉤下去的話對於農業部他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用有他們的方法跟推動的方向反而會讓人家錯以為說國土計劃法是來做框架然後限制我們農民然後限制我們農地的發展\n\n26\n00:09:33,183 --> 00:09:34,684\n臺灣農業的永續發展是農業部的使命跟責任這樣子的一個政策的推動跟協助他不會因為國土計畫的推動\n\n27\n00:09:56,732 --> 00:09:56,952\n﹚蔡易餘﹚\n\n28\n00:10:25,338 --> 00:10:47,760\n農事的部分是跟鄉村有關的就是我們未來我們正在規劃鄉村的所有的規劃那未來像包括委員所關心的就是農舍的部分他不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他有他特定的興建農舍的辦法所以在農業發展區裡面你要做農舍的一個興建都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的\n\n29\n00:10:48,180 --> 00:10:49,262\n目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深\n\n30\n00:11:06,158 --> 00:11:29,160\n主要還是來自他的文字的本身以及國土計畫應該有23項執法這23項執法目前保魂都還沒有出來沒有跟您補充一下24項裡面13項已經公佈另外9項現在正在預告當中所以就在預告所以我說這些執法應該跟國土計畫要一併來我們要一併去看待\n\n31\n00:11:29,961 --> 00:11:43,277\n所以你說很多你說事實上是有放寬可以使用的但是他在母法的時候他的文字就是寫禁止或限制其他使用就是說這樣的一個文字事實上框在那邊\n\n32\n00:12:13,005 --> 00:12:14,544\n基本上他的文字\n\n33\n00:12:16,247 --> 00:12:44,117\n32條也是寫除了修上外不得增建或改建但是他現在如果是用錯的話也沒有限縮這就是這個母法的問題這個母法的問題在那你說我們現在有一些配套措施啊或者是我們一些對應的執法他有怎樣的一個辦法這些東西都和母法衝突啊所以我認為說我們需要時間就國土計劃法我們是不是在通盤來檢討一下然後我們不要貿然的就說我們把時間自己綁死自己\n\n34\n00:12:44,617 --> 00:13:12,404\n所以這段時間大家溝通不清楚我們就說好上路我覺得這樣的話風險很大因為我想我們大家目標我們目標一致我們希望台灣的所有土地利用必須要有更完善的規劃以後的我們的土地勒是用計畫的引導的方式這個我們方向一致但是以目前大家誤會這麼深的情況之下是不是有一個更妥善的時間來做更好的溝通好的委員我跟委員報告\n\n35\n00:13:13,264 --> 00:13:39,589\n剛剛委員說過這個法是在2016年的5月定定完成實施我也不相信當初訂這個法會完全沒有尊重顧慮到農民的權益但是現在看起來當中若干的解釋跟字眼跟文字上的用語確實是讓人家在解釋上或實施上之後會產生一些疑慮況且現在剛剛一開始說的還有9個縣市沒有送來我們除了請\n\n36\n00:13:41,056 --> 00:13:59,415\n內政部繼續的請地方政府完成這個功能圖的送來之外如果真的無法送來那麼我們對於明年4月要全國的實施上路是有困難的因為依照國土計畫法45條的規定他是要一併公告的不能夠割裂的那這個是\n\n37\n00:14:00,706 --> 00:14:28,799\n事實上因為有9個縣市沒有送來我們有這種事實上的困難法律上如果沒有一併公告我們也有法律上執法的困難那我也聽到來自縣市來自一些農民的團體甚至來自大院黨團的一些意見那麼還有一些外界的聲音都希望我們能夠再慎重那這個部分容許我們跟內政部跟農業部我們就事實的困難法律的困難跟外界的各種聲音我們會做最終的決定\n\n38\n00:14:30,535 --> 00:14:47,124\n這部分就要拜託院長跟我們兩位部長做整體的評估然後讓農民有信心我們這樣的一個法定的上路對他們是更有好處而不是要綁死他們這個我覺得一定要讓他們很清楚的知道這一點況且我們不論做了什麼決定農業部對農業的對農民的補助\n\n39\n00:14:49,805 --> 00:15:09,045\n在我們整個總統的政策底下幸福農家的這個政策底下我們絕對不會去輕忽忽略對農民相關的補助而且我們只會在制度上在補助上更精進更周全無論做什麼的決定因為現在法案是這樣因為它定4月30如果到時候事實上也沒辦法的話\n\n40\n00:15:10,026 --> 00:15:10,667\n剛剛委員所說的希望我們不要增加誤解\n\n41\n00:15:40,856 --> 00:15:47,862\n謝謝蔡委員謝謝左院長下一位請林思明委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12830\t16615\t好 主席那我們是不是有請院長來請卓院長背信蔡委員好 院長好\n31323\t55989\t我想這段時間辛苦尤其由凱米颱風之後有很多關係到水災然後關係到很多救災甚至花東的一個工作這段時間我看院長可以說是到處奔波所以真的很辛苦我想今天透過總諮詢我還是想把時間用在跟院長聊一下這個國土計劃法\n58121\t68453\t國有計劃法我們知道他是在104年的時候當時候的行政院長是江以化他所提出來那在105年馬英九\n71893\t100845\t還在執政的時候 完成三讀那上路的時候是在105年的5月1號當時是馬英九要告知蔡英文總統的時候國土計劃法可以說是正式上路那以他的一個規定裡面他分為一階二階跟三階首先一階的部分他在107年4月30全國的國土計劃是公告施行\n101545\t130263\t二階第110年的4月30號現式的國土計劃公告施行那一國土計劃第45條二階之後要到第三階類他就也就是在四年內必須要一併公告國土功能分區圖那也就是在114年的4月30前國土功能分區圖必須要全數的縣市都要公告然後要全面實施那也就是\n130983\t153931\t區域計劃法即將要被廢止那我想要請教院長的就是說那到目前為止還沒有繳交國土功能分區圖的縣市就我目前掌握還有新北市、台中市、桃園市苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、台東縣以及嘉義市\n155230\t165555\t還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市\n173517\t199533\t賴總統上任之後還是持續的請內政部請農業部全力在推動國土計劃法能夠讓他順利的上路所以也並請上位送達功能圖的各個縣市能夠在法定時間就是今年的6月30號能夠送達但到目前為止陳如委員所說還有9個縣市沒有送來但其中有若干縣市是允諾說會在9月底啦年底送來\n200293\t228872\t但是這不一定會到時候是不是真的如此但是有這樣的一個允諾有允諾啦 但是我現在我們在地方看到的是說他們說允諾有送 因為目前大概還沒有送的我看除了苗栗是無黨籍啦 其他好像都國民黨籍啦尤其包括像雲林 我看他召開好多公聽會全部都在批判而且這個批判是帶有製造假消息\n231487\t233169\t國土計劃上路後,國土計劃上路後\n246513\t271092\t不能去任何地方都沒有機會事實上我們知道的就是說如果我們以現在內政部他們所公告他們說了很多的一些談判一些讓我們可以去瞭解的事實上國有計劃法就有一些部分它有逐步在放寬在內政部都有做一些微調\n273676\t296915\t很麻煩的就是這個違條在條文的本身是看不到的如果我們來看起來你在國土計劃法第21條他所規定的農業發展地區第一類供農業生產或其必要之產銷設施使用並限制或禁止其他使用\n298510\t310658\t我覺得這幾個字很嚴重禁止或限制其他使用所以一定要這幾天都封起來所以說大家就會說 喔 哇 原來農醫的土地什麼都不能用了\n312083\t326296\t所以現在大家都說不然農二比較好可是這個很矛盾啊因為我們知道所謂的農一跟農二他到底是怎麼演變來的有說現在你如果是區域計畫法你如果是特別農業區他未來可能會變農一你如果一般農業區他未來可能會變農二\n333302\t343066\t現在我們的農業區的區分都又以過去有沒有灌溉就是說以前有做農水農來認定說他們是屬於特別農業區或一般農\n353103\t360926\t他現在這樣演變過來的時候造成很多農民他們是誤會的是說我的農地你現在在幫我變農醫療醫療我就動彈不得而且這個矛盾又在於說我們知道說\n369660\t395167\t現在國有區是屬於特別農業區他大概就是有灌溉有灌溉他就是水稻比較多如果是一般農業區他可能是低地利也可能是低層下限或者是他沒有他姓洪濤的水位沒有水塘灌溉所以他可能會進展更多但是這個矛盾就在於說我們強調糧食安全可是我們的稻米是生產過剩的\n396857\t420886\t我們整個臺灣的水稻生產過剩所以現在水稻生產過剩你又說農業的土地必須要維持然後我們一般農的就是農惡的土地未來他是有比較有彈性但是我們水稻又不需要那麼多我們需要的農業的糧食安全應該要在黃小玉結果黃小玉他相對的\n422825\t426778\t相對的他的權力比較少這樣看起來整個都矛盾\n428528\t451741\t整個都矛盾 所以這個農民一定會說這個國土計劃法上路 我有很多 他有很多事情他們在這段時間沒有辦法好好地溝通 又加上有些地方政府他根本是抵制型的在跟農民辦公廳會他根本說你要說他要上這個分區圖 我不太相信他是真的要做分區圖 他根本就是要抵制的\n452944\t474679\t所以院長我具體一個建議就是這個國土計劃法到目前為止看起來我們現在茂囊上路會有很大的民怨那與其我們預見這樣的情況之下我們是不是稍微緩衝一點難得增加比較長的時間來做有效的溝通讓國土計劃的上路可以更加的順遂\n475974\t491449\t我尊重委員的意見但是請讓內政部劉部長談談看這段時間他努力推動這個國土計劃法的過程其實他現在對於這個整體的狀況有什麼樣的分析 請說感謝委員 委員和二十幾位立法委員非常關心農民對農業也有政客的關聯這就是我們過去一段時間推動的時候當中的困擾\n499577\t522700\t因為國土計劃法實際上是要規範全台灣國土能不能好好的利用而不是把國土計劃法拿成當然生財的工具有若干縣市政府他們在4年前也是這個縣長的名義就直接公布他的國土計劃但是4年後他現在所說的方向跟他4年前所公布的其實已經相差太多完全不一樣\n523340\t549306\t而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說你剛所提到的這個農一呢每一公頃要40萬塊然後農二呢每一公頃要30萬塊就變成農地是變成拿來炒作這個完全不符合國土計劃法現在所要推動的方向而且呢我們會認為國土計劃法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30號一併來公布才能夠好好的規範全台灣各地國土的正確的運用\n550666\t572863\t但是我們也會呼籲國土計劃法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤因為掛鉤下去的話對於農業部他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用有他們的方法跟推動的方向反而會讓人家錯以為說國土計劃法是來做框架然後限制我們農民然後限制我們農地的發展\n573183\t574684\t臺灣農業的永續發展是農業部的使命跟責任這樣子的一個政策的推動跟協助他不會因為國土計畫的推動\n596732\t596952\t﹚蔡易餘﹚\n625338\t647760\t農事的部分是跟鄉村有關的就是我們未來我們正在規劃鄉村的所有的規劃那未來像包括委員所關心的就是農舍的部分他不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他有他特定的興建農舍的辦法所以在農業發展區裡面你要做農舍的一個興建都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的\n648180\t649262\t目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深\n666158\t689160\t主要還是來自他的文字的本身以及國土計畫應該有23項執法這23項執法目前保魂都還沒有出來沒有跟您補充一下24項裡面13項已經公佈另外9項現在正在預告當中所以就在預告所以我說這些執法應該跟國土計畫要一併來我們要一併去看待\n689961\t703277\t所以你說很多你說事實上是有放寬可以使用的但是他在母法的時候他的文字就是寫禁止或限制其他使用就是說這樣的一個文字事實上框在那邊\n704497\t732654\t呃﹗\n733005\t734544\t基本上他的文字\n736247\t764117\t32條也是寫除了修上外不得增建或改建但是他現在如果是用錯的話也沒有限縮這就是這個母法的問題這個母法的問題在那你說我們現在有一些配套措施啊或者是我們一些對應的執法他有怎樣的一個辦法這些東西都和母法衝突啊所以我認為說我們需要時間就國土計劃法我們是不是在通盤來檢討一下然後我們不要貿然的就說我們把時間自己綁死自己\n764617\t792404\t所以這段時間大家溝通不清楚我們就說好 上路我覺得這樣的話風險很大因為我想我們大家目標我們目標一致我們希望台灣的所有土地利用必須要有更完善的規劃以後的我們的土地勒是用計畫的引導的方式這個我們方向一致但是以目前大家誤會這麼深的情況之下是不是有一個更妥善的時間來做更好的溝通好的委員 我跟委員報告\n793264\t819589\t剛剛委員說過 這個法是在2016年的5月定定完成 實施我也不相信當初訂這個法會完全沒有尊重顧慮到農民的權益但是現在看起來當中若干的解釋跟字眼跟文字上的用語確實是讓人家在解釋上或實施上之後會產生一些疑慮況且現在剛剛一開始說的還有9個縣市沒有送來我們除了請\n821056\t839415\t內政部繼續的請地方政府完成這個功能圖的送來之外如果真的無法送來那麼我們對於明年4月要全國的實施上路是有困難的因為依照國土計畫法45條的規定他是要一併公告的不能夠割裂的那這個是\n840706\t868799\t事實上因為有9個縣市沒有送來我們有這種事實上的困難法律上如果沒有一併公告我們也有法律上執法的困難那我也聽到來自縣市來自一些農民的團體甚至來自大院黨團的一些意見那麼還有一些外界的聲音都希望我們能夠再慎重那這個部分容許我們跟內政部跟農業部我們就事實的困難法律的困難跟外界的各種聲音我們會做最終的決定\n870535\t887124\t這部分就要拜託院長跟我們兩位部長做整體的評估然後讓農民有信心我們這樣的一個法定的上路對他們是更有好處而不是要綁死他們這個我覺得一定要讓他們很清楚的知道這一點況且我們不論做了什麼決定農業部對農業的對農民的補助\n889805\t909045\t在我們整個總統的政策底下幸福農家的這個政策底下我們絕對不會去輕忽忽略對農民相關的補助而且我們只會在制度上在補助上更精進更周全無論做什麼的決定因為現在法案是這樣因為它定4月30如果到時候事實上也沒辦法的話\n910026\t910667\t剛剛委員所說的希望我們不要增加誤解\n940856\t947862\t謝謝蔡委員謝謝左院長下一位請林思明委員質詢\n","txt":"好 主席那我們是不是有請院長來請卓院長背信蔡委員好 院長好\n我想這段時間辛苦尤其由凱米颱風之後有很多關係到水災然後關係到很多救災甚至花東的一個工作這段時間我看院長可以說是到處奔波所以真的很辛苦我想今天透過總諮詢我還是想把時間用在跟院長聊一下這個國土計劃法\n國有計劃法我們知道他是在104年的時候當時候的行政院長是江以化他所提出來那在105年馬英九\n還在執政的時候 完成三讀那上路的時候是在105年的5月1號當時是馬英九要告知蔡英文總統的時候國土計劃法可以說是正式上路那以他的一個規定裡面他分為一階二階跟三階首先一階的部分他在107年4月30全國的國土計劃是公告施行\n二階第110年的4月30號現式的國土計劃公告施行那一國土計劃第45條二階之後要到第三階類他就也就是在四年內必須要一併公告國土功能分區圖那也就是在114年的4月30前國土功能分區圖必須要全數的縣市都要公告然後要全面實施那也就是\n區域計劃法即將要被廢止那我想要請教院長的就是說那到目前為止還沒有繳交國土功能分區圖的縣市就我目前掌握還有新北市、台中市、桃園市苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、台東縣以及嘉義市\n還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市\n賴總統上任之後還是持續的請內政部請農業部全力在推動國土計劃法能夠讓他順利的上路所以也並請上位送達功能圖的各個縣市能夠在法定時間就是今年的6月30號能夠送達但到目前為止陳如委員所說還有9個縣市沒有送來但其中有若干縣市是允諾說會在9月底啦年底送來\n但是這不一定會到時候是不是真的如此但是有這樣的一個允諾有允諾啦 但是我現在我們在地方看到的是說他們說允諾有送 因為目前大概還沒有送的我看除了苗栗是無黨籍啦 其他好像都國民黨籍啦尤其包括像雲林 我看他召開好多公聽會全部都在批判而且這個批判是帶有製造假消息\n國土計劃上路後,國土計劃上路後\n不能去任何地方都沒有機會事實上我們知道的就是說如果我們以現在內政部他們所公告他們說了很多的一些談判一些讓我們可以去瞭解的事實上國有計劃法就有一些部分它有逐步在放寬在內政部都有做一些微調\n很麻煩的就是這個違條在條文的本身是看不到的如果我們來看起來你在國土計劃法第21條他所規定的農業發展地區第一類供農業生產或其必要之產銷設施使用並限制或禁止其他使用\n我覺得這幾個字很嚴重禁止或限制其他使用所以一定要這幾天都封起來所以說大家就會說 喔 哇 原來農醫的土地什麼都不能用了\n所以現在大家都說不然農二比較好可是這個很矛盾啊因為我們知道所謂的農一跟農二他到底是怎麼演變來的有說現在你如果是區域計畫法你如果是特別農業區他未來可能會變農一你如果一般農業區他未來可能會變農二\n現在我們的農業區的區分都又以過去有沒有灌溉就是說以前有做農水農來認定說他們是屬於特別農業區或一般農\n他現在這樣演變過來的時候造成很多農民他們是誤會的是說我的農地你現在在幫我變農醫療醫療我就動彈不得而且這個矛盾又在於說我們知道說\n現在國有區是屬於特別農業區他大概就是有灌溉有灌溉他就是水稻比較多如果是一般農業區他可能是低地利也可能是低層下限或者是他沒有他姓洪濤的水位沒有水塘灌溉所以他可能會進展更多但是這個矛盾就在於說我們強調糧食安全可是我們的稻米是生產過剩的\n我們整個臺灣的水稻生產過剩所以現在水稻生產過剩你又說農業的土地必須要維持然後我們一般農的就是農惡的土地未來他是有比較有彈性但是我們水稻又不需要那麼多我們需要的農業的糧食安全應該要在黃小玉結果黃小玉他相對的\n相對的他的權力比較少這樣看起來整個都矛盾\n整個都矛盾 所以這個農民一定會說這個國土計劃法上路 我有很多 他有很多事情他們在這段時間沒有辦法好好地溝通 又加上有些地方政府他根本是抵制型的在跟農民辦公廳會他根本說你要說他要上這個分區圖 我不太相信他是真的要做分區圖 他根本就是要抵制的\n所以院長我具體一個建議就是這個國土計劃法到目前為止看起來我們現在茂囊上路會有很大的民怨那與其我們預見這樣的情況之下我們是不是稍微緩衝一點難得增加比較長的時間來做有效的溝通讓國土計劃的上路可以更加的順遂\n我尊重委員的意見但是請讓內政部劉部長談談看這段時間他努力推動這個國土計劃法的過程其實他現在對於這個整體的狀況有什麼樣的分析 請說感謝委員 委員和二十幾位立法委員非常關心農民對農業也有政客的關聯這就是我們過去一段時間推動的時候當中的困擾\n因為國土計劃法實際上是要規範全台灣國土能不能好好的利用而不是把國土計劃法拿成當然生財的工具有若干縣市政府他們在4年前也是這個縣長的名義就直接公布他的國土計劃但是4年後他現在所說的方向跟他4年前所公布的其實已經相差太多完全不一樣\n而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說你剛所提到的這個農一呢每一公頃要40萬塊然後農二呢每一公頃要30萬塊就變成農地是變成拿來炒作這個完全不符合國土計劃法現在所要推動的方向而且呢我們會認為國土計劃法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30號一併來公布才能夠好好的規範全台灣各地國土的正確的運用\n但是我們也會呼籲國土計劃法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤因為掛鉤下去的話對於農業部他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用有他們的方法跟推動的方向反而會讓人家錯以為說國土計劃法是來做框架然後限制我們農民然後限制我們農地的發展\n臺灣農業的永續發展是農業部的使命跟責任這樣子的一個政策的推動跟協助他不會因為國土計畫的推動\n﹚蔡易餘﹚\n農事的部分是跟鄉村有關的就是我們未來我們正在規劃鄉村的所有的規劃那未來像包括委員所關心的就是農舍的部分他不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他有他特定的興建農舍的辦法所以在農業發展區裡面你要做農舍的一個興建都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的\n目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深\n主要還是來自他的文字的本身以及國土計畫應該有23項執法這23項執法目前保魂都還沒有出來沒有跟您補充一下24項裡面13項已經公佈另外9項現在正在預告當中所以就在預告所以我說這些執法應該跟國土計畫要一併來我們要一併去看待\n所以你說很多你說事實上是有放寬可以使用的但是他在母法的時候他的文字就是寫禁止或限制其他使用就是說這樣的一個文字事實上框在那邊\n呃﹗\n基本上他的文字\n32條也是寫除了修上外不得增建或改建但是他現在如果是用錯的話也沒有限縮這就是這個母法的問題這個母法的問題在那你說我們現在有一些配套措施啊或者是我們一些對應的執法他有怎樣的一個辦法這些東西都和母法衝突啊所以我認為說我們需要時間就國土計劃法我們是不是在通盤來檢討一下然後我們不要貿然的就說我們把時間自己綁死自己\n所以這段時間大家溝通不清楚我們就說好 上路我覺得這樣的話風險很大因為我想我們大家目標我們目標一致我們希望台灣的所有土地利用必須要有更完善的規劃以後的我們的土地勒是用計畫的引導的方式這個我們方向一致但是以目前大家誤會這麼深的情況之下是不是有一個更妥善的時間來做更好的溝通好的委員 我跟委員報告\n剛剛委員說過 這個法是在2016年的5月定定完成 實施我也不相信當初訂這個法會完全沒有尊重顧慮到農民的權益但是現在看起來當中若干的解釋跟字眼跟文字上的用語確實是讓人家在解釋上或實施上之後會產生一些疑慮況且現在剛剛一開始說的還有9個縣市沒有送來我們除了請\n內政部繼續的請地方政府完成這個功能圖的送來之外如果真的無法送來那麼我們對於明年4月要全國的實施上路是有困難的因為依照國土計畫法45條的規定他是要一併公告的不能夠割裂的那這個是\n事實上因為有9個縣市沒有送來我們有這種事實上的困難法律上如果沒有一併公告我們也有法律上執法的困難那我也聽到來自縣市來自一些農民的團體甚至來自大院黨團的一些意見那麼還有一些外界的聲音都希望我們能夠再慎重那這個部分容許我們跟內政部跟農業部我們就事實的困難法律的困難跟外界的各種聲音我們會做最終的決定\n這部分就要拜託院長跟我們兩位部長做整體的評估然後讓農民有信心我們這樣的一個法定的上路對他們是更有好處而不是要綁死他們這個我覺得一定要讓他們很清楚的知道這一點況且我們不論做了什麼決定農業部對農業的對農民的補助\n在我們整個總統的政策底下幸福農家的這個政策底下我們絕對不會去輕忽忽略對農民相關的補助而且我們只會在制度上在補助上更精進更周全無論做什麼的決定因為現在法案是這樣因為它定4月30如果到時候事實上也沒辦法的話\n剛剛委員所說的希望我們不要增加誤解\n謝謝蔡委員謝謝左院長下一位請林思明委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.830 --> 00:16.615\n好主席那我們是不是有請院長來請卓院長背信蔡委員好院長好\n\n00:31.323 --> 00:55.989\n我想這段時間辛苦尤其由凱米颱風之後有很多關係到水災然後關係到很多救災甚至花東的一個工作這段時間我看院長可以說是到處奔波所以真的很辛苦我想今天透過總諮詢我還是想把時間用在跟院長聊一下這個國土計劃法\n\n00:58.121 --> 01:08.453\n國有計劃法我們知道他是在104年的時候當時候的行政院長是江以化他所提出來那在105年馬英九\n\n01:11.893 --> 01:40.845\n還在執政的時候完成三讀那上路的時候是在105年的5月1號當時是馬英九要告知蔡英文總統的時候國土計劃法可以說是正式上路那以他的一個規定裡面他分為一階二階跟三階首先一階的部分他在107年4月30全國的國土計劃是公告施行\n\n01:41.545 --> 02:10.263\n二階第110年的4月30號現式的國土計劃公告施行那一國土計劃第45條二階之後要到第三階類他就也就是在四年內必須要一併公告國土功能分區圖那也就是在114年的4月30前國土功能分區圖必須要全數的縣市都要公告然後要全面實施那也就是\n\n02:10.983 --> 02:33.931\n區域計劃法即將要被廢止那我想要請教院長的就是說那到目前為止還沒有繳交國土功能分區圖的縣市就我目前掌握還有新北市、台中市、桃園市苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、台東縣以及嘉義市\n\n02:35.230 --> 02:45.555\n還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市還有9個縣市\n\n02:53.517 --> 03:19.533\n賴總統上任之後還是持續的請內政部請農業部全力在推動國土計劃法能夠讓他順利的上路所以也並請上位送達功能圖的各個縣市能夠在法定時間就是今年的6月30號能夠送達但到目前為止陳如委員所說還有9個縣市沒有送來但其中有若干縣市是允諾說會在9月底啦年底送來\n\n03:20.293 --> 03:48.872\n但是這不一定會到時候是不是真的如此但是有這樣的一個允諾有允諾啦但是我現在我們在地方看到的是說他們說允諾有送因為目前大概還沒有送的我看除了苗栗是無黨籍啦其他好像都國民黨籍啦尤其包括像雲林我看他召開好多公聽會全部都在批判而且這個批判是帶有製造假消息\n\n03:51.487 --> 03:53.169\n國土計劃上路後,國土計劃上路後\n\n04:06.513 --> 04:31.092\n不能去任何地方都沒有機會事實上我們知道的就是說如果我們以現在內政部他們所公告他們說了很多的一些談判一些讓我們可以去瞭解的事實上國有計劃法就有一些部分它有逐步在放寬在內政部都有做一些微調\n\n04:33.676 --> 04:56.915\n很麻煩的就是這個違條在條文的本身是看不到的如果我們來看起來你在國土計劃法第21條他所規定的農業發展地區第一類供農業生產或其必要之產銷設施使用並限制或禁止其他使用\n\n04:58.510 --> 05:10.658\n我覺得這幾個字很嚴重禁止或限制其他使用所以一定要這幾天都封起來所以說大家就會說喔哇原來農醫的土地什麼都不能用了\n\n05:12.083 --> 05:26.296\n所以現在大家都說不然農二比較好可是這個很矛盾啊因為我們知道所謂的農一跟農二他到底是怎麼演變來的有說現在你如果是區域計畫法你如果是特別農業區他未來可能會變農一你如果一般農業區他未來可能會變農二\n\n05:33.302 --> 05:43.066\n現在我們的農業區的區分都又以過去有沒有灌溉就是說以前有做農水農來認定說他們是屬於特別農業區或一般農\n\n05:53.103 --> 06:00.926\n他現在這樣演變過來的時候造成很多農民他們是誤會的是說我的農地你現在在幫我變農醫療醫療我就動彈不得而且這個矛盾又在於說我們知道說\n\n06:09.660 --> 06:35.167\n現在國有區是屬於特別農業區他大概就是有灌溉有灌溉他就是水稻比較多如果是一般農業區他可能是低地利也可能是低層下限或者是他沒有他姓洪濤的水位沒有水塘灌溉所以他可能會進展更多但是這個矛盾就在於說我們強調糧食安全可是我們的稻米是生產過剩的\n\n06:36.857 --> 07:00.886\n我們整個臺灣的水稻生產過剩所以現在水稻生產過剩你又說農業的土地必須要維持然後我們一般農的就是農惡的土地未來他是有比較有彈性但是我們水稻又不需要那麼多我們需要的農業的糧食安全應該要在黃小玉結果黃小玉他相對的\n\n07:02.825 --> 07:06.778\n相對的他的權力比較少這樣看起來整個都矛盾\n\n07:08.528 --> 07:31.741\n整個都矛盾所以這個農民一定會說這個國土計劃法上路我有很多他有很多事情他們在這段時間沒有辦法好好地溝通又加上有些地方政府他根本是抵制型的在跟農民辦公廳會他根本說你要說他要上這個分區圖我不太相信他是真的要做分區圖他根本就是要抵制的\n\n07:32.944 --> 07:54.679\n所以院長我具體一個建議就是這個國土計劃法到目前為止看起來我們現在茂囊上路會有很大的民怨那與其我們預見這樣的情況之下我們是不是稍微緩衝一點難得增加比較長的時間來做有效的溝通讓國土計劃的上路可以更加的順遂\n\n07:55.974 --> 08:11.449\n我尊重委員的意見但是請讓內政部劉部長談談看這段時間他努力推動這個國土計劃法的過程其實他現在對於這個整體的狀況有什麼樣的分析請說感謝委員委員和二十幾位立法委員非常關心農民對農業也有政客的關聯這就是我們過去一段時間推動的時候當中的困擾\n\n08:19.577 --> 08:42.700\n因為國土計劃法實際上是要規範全台灣國土能不能好好的利用而不是把國土計劃法拿成當然生財的工具有若干縣市政府他們在4年前也是這個縣長的名義就直接公布他的國土計劃但是4年後他現在所說的方向跟他4年前所公布的其實已經相差太多完全不一樣\n\n08:43.340 --> 09:09.306\n而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說你剛所提到的這個農一呢每一公頃要40萬塊然後農二呢每一公頃要30萬塊就變成農地是變成拿來炒作這個完全不符合國土計劃法現在所要推動的方向而且呢我們會認為國土計劃法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30號一併來公布才能夠好好的規範全台灣各地國土的正確的運用\n\n09:10.666 --> 09:32.863\n但是我們也會呼籲國土計劃法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤因為掛鉤下去的話對於農業部他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用有他們的方法跟推動的方向反而會讓人家錯以為說國土計劃法是來做框架然後限制我們農民然後限制我們農地的發展\n\n09:33.183 --> 09:34.684\n臺灣農業的永續發展是農業部的使命跟責任這樣子的一個政策的推動跟協助他不會因為國土計畫的推動\n\n09:56.732 --> 09:56.952\n﹚蔡易餘﹚\n\n10:25.338 --> 10:47.760\n農事的部分是跟鄉村有關的就是我們未來我們正在規劃鄉村的所有的規劃那未來像包括委員所關心的就是農舍的部分他不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他有他特定的興建農舍的辦法所以在農業發展區裡面你要做農舍的一個興建都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的\n\n10:48.180 --> 10:49.262\n目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深\n\n11:06.158 --> 11:29.160\n主要還是來自他的文字的本身以及國土計畫應該有23項執法這23項執法目前保魂都還沒有出來沒有跟您補充一下24項裡面13項已經公佈另外9項現在正在預告當中所以就在預告所以我說這些執法應該跟國土計畫要一併來我們要一併去看待\n\n11:29.961 --> 11:43.277\n所以你說很多你說事實上是有放寬可以使用的但是他在母法的時候他的文字就是寫禁止或限制其他使用就是說這樣的一個文字事實上框在那邊\n\n12:13.005 --> 12:14.544\n基本上他的文字\n\n12:16.247 --> 12:44.117\n32條也是寫除了修上外不得增建或改建但是他現在如果是用錯的話也沒有限縮這就是這個母法的問題這個母法的問題在那你說我們現在有一些配套措施啊或者是我們一些對應的執法他有怎樣的一個辦法這些東西都和母法衝突啊所以我認為說我們需要時間就國土計劃法我們是不是在通盤來檢討一下然後我們不要貿然的就說我們把時間自己綁死自己\n\n12:44.617 --> 13:12.404\n所以這段時間大家溝通不清楚我們就說好上路我覺得這樣的話風險很大因為我想我們大家目標我們目標一致我們希望台灣的所有土地利用必須要有更完善的規劃以後的我們的土地勒是用計畫的引導的方式這個我們方向一致但是以目前大家誤會這麼深的情況之下是不是有一個更妥善的時間來做更好的溝通好的委員我跟委員報告\n\n13:13.264 --> 13:39.589\n剛剛委員說過這個法是在2016年的5月定定完成實施我也不相信當初訂這個法會完全沒有尊重顧慮到農民的權益但是現在看起來當中若干的解釋跟字眼跟文字上的用語確實是讓人家在解釋上或實施上之後會產生一些疑慮況且現在剛剛一開始說的還有9個縣市沒有送來我們除了請\n\n13:41.056 --> 13:59.415\n內政部繼續的請地方政府完成這個功能圖的送來之外如果真的無法送來那麼我們對於明年4月要全國的實施上路是有困難的因為依照國土計畫法45條的規定他是要一併公告的不能夠割裂的那這個是\n\n14:00.706 --> 14:28.799\n事實上因為有9個縣市沒有送來我們有這種事實上的困難法律上如果沒有一併公告我們也有法律上執法的困難那我也聽到來自縣市來自一些農民的團體甚至來自大院黨團的一些意見那麼還有一些外界的聲音都希望我們能夠再慎重那這個部分容許我們跟內政部跟農業部我們就事實的困難法律的困難跟外界的各種聲音我們會做最終的決定\n\n14:30.535 --> 14:47.124\n這部分就要拜託院長跟我們兩位部長做整體的評估然後讓農民有信心我們這樣的一個法定的上路對他們是更有好處而不是要綁死他們這個我覺得一定要讓他們很清楚的知道這一點況且我們不論做了什麼決定農業部對農業的對農民的補助\n\n14:49.805 --> 15:09.045\n在我們整個總統的政策底下幸福農家的這個政策底下我們絕對不會去輕忽忽略對農民相關的補助而且我們只會在制度上在補助上更精進更周全無論做什麼的決定因為現在法案是這樣因為它定4月30如果到時候事實上也沒辦法的話\n\n15:10.026 --> 15:10.667\n剛剛委員所說的希望我們不要增加誤解\n\n15:40.856 --> 15:47.862\n謝謝蔡委員謝謝左院長下一位請林思明委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.83,"end":16.615,"text":"好 主席那我們是不是有請院長來請卓院長背信蔡委員好 院長好"},{"start":31.323,"end":55.989,"text":"我想這段時間辛苦尤其由凱米颱風之後有很多關係到水災然後關係到很多救災甚至花東的一個工作這段時間我看院長可以說是到處奔波所以真的很辛苦我想今天透過總諮詢我還是想把時間用在跟院長聊一下這個國土計劃法"},{"start":58.121,"end":68.453,"text":"國有計劃法我們知道他是在104年的時候當時候的行政院長是江以化他所提出來那在105年馬英九"},{"start":71.893,"end":100.845,"text":"還在執政的時候 完成三讀那上路的時候是在105年的5月1號當時是馬英九要告知蔡英文總統的時候國土計劃法可以說是正式上路那以他的一個規定裡面他分為一階二階跟三階首先一階的部分他在107年4月30全國的國土計劃是公告施行"},{"start":101.545,"end":130.263,"text":"二階第110年的4月30號現式的國土計劃公告施行那一國土計劃第45條二階之後要到第三階類他就也就是在四年內必須要一併公告國土功能分區圖那也就是在114年的4月30前國土功能分區圖必須要全數的縣市都要公告然後要全面實施那也就是"},{"start":130.983,"end":153.931,"text":"區域計劃法即將要被廢止那我想要請教院長的就是說那到目前為止還沒有繳交國土功能分區圖的縣市就我目前掌握還有新北市、台中市、桃園市苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、台東縣以及嘉義市"},{"start":155.23,"end":165.555,"text":"還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市 還有9個縣市"},{"start":173.517,"end":199.533,"text":"賴總統上任之後還是持續的請內政部請農業部全力在推動國土計劃法能夠讓他順利的上路所以也並請上位送達功能圖的各個縣市能夠在法定時間就是今年的6月30號能夠送達但到目前為止陳如委員所說還有9個縣市沒有送來但其中有若干縣市是允諾說會在9月底啦年底送來"},{"start":200.293,"end":228.872,"text":"但是這不一定會到時候是不是真的如此但是有這樣的一個允諾有允諾啦 但是我現在我們在地方看到的是說他們說允諾有送 因為目前大概還沒有送的我看除了苗栗是無黨籍啦 其他好像都國民黨籍啦尤其包括像雲林 我看他召開好多公聽會全部都在批判而且這個批判是帶有製造假消息"},{"start":231.487,"end":233.169,"text":"國土計劃上路後,國土計劃上路後"},{"start":246.513,"end":271.092,"text":"不能去任何地方都沒有機會事實上我們知道的就是說如果我們以現在內政部他們所公告他們說了很多的一些談判一些讓我們可以去瞭解的事實上國有計劃法就有一些部分它有逐步在放寬在內政部都有做一些微調"},{"start":273.676,"end":296.915,"text":"很麻煩的就是這個違條在條文的本身是看不到的如果我們來看起來你在國土計劃法第21條他所規定的農業發展地區第一類供農業生產或其必要之產銷設施使用並限制或禁止其他使用"},{"start":298.51,"end":310.658,"text":"我覺得這幾個字很嚴重禁止或限制其他使用所以一定要這幾天都封起來所以說大家就會說 喔 哇 原來農醫的土地什麼都不能用了"},{"start":312.083,"end":326.296,"text":"所以現在大家都說不然農二比較好可是這個很矛盾啊因為我們知道所謂的農一跟農二他到底是怎麼演變來的有說現在你如果是區域計畫法你如果是特別農業區他未來可能會變農一你如果一般農業區他未來可能會變農二"},{"start":333.302,"end":343.066,"text":"現在我們的農業區的區分都又以過去有沒有灌溉就是說以前有做農水農來認定說他們是屬於特別農業區或一般農"},{"start":353.103,"end":360.926,"text":"他現在這樣演變過來的時候造成很多農民他們是誤會的是說我的農地你現在在幫我變農醫療醫療我就動彈不得而且這個矛盾又在於說我們知道說"},{"start":369.66,"end":395.167,"text":"現在國有區是屬於特別農業區他大概就是有灌溉有灌溉他就是水稻比較多如果是一般農業區他可能是低地利也可能是低層下限或者是他沒有他姓洪濤的水位沒有水塘灌溉所以他可能會進展更多但是這個矛盾就在於說我們強調糧食安全可是我們的稻米是生產過剩的"},{"start":396.857,"end":420.886,"text":"我們整個臺灣的水稻生產過剩所以現在水稻生產過剩你又說農業的土地必須要維持然後我們一般農的就是農惡的土地未來他是有比較有彈性但是我們水稻又不需要那麼多我們需要的農業的糧食安全應該要在黃小玉結果黃小玉他相對的"},{"start":422.825,"end":426.778,"text":"相對的他的權力比較少這樣看起來整個都矛盾"},{"start":428.528,"end":451.741,"text":"整個都矛盾 所以這個農民一定會說這個國土計劃法上路 我有很多 他有很多事情他們在這段時間沒有辦法好好地溝通 又加上有些地方政府他根本是抵制型的在跟農民辦公廳會他根本說你要說他要上這個分區圖 我不太相信他是真的要做分區圖 他根本就是要抵制的"},{"start":452.944,"end":474.679,"text":"所以院長我具體一個建議就是這個國土計劃法到目前為止看起來我們現在茂囊上路會有很大的民怨那與其我們預見這樣的情況之下我們是不是稍微緩衝一點難得增加比較長的時間來做有效的溝通讓國土計劃的上路可以更加的順遂"},{"start":475.974,"end":491.449,"text":"我尊重委員的意見但是請讓內政部劉部長談談看這段時間他努力推動這個國土計劃法的過程其實他現在對於這個整體的狀況有什麼樣的分析 請說感謝委員 委員和二十幾位立法委員非常關心農民對農業也有政客的關聯這就是我們過去一段時間推動的時候當中的困擾"},{"start":499.577,"end":522.7,"text":"因為國土計劃法實際上是要規範全台灣國土能不能好好的利用而不是把國土計劃法拿成當然生財的工具有若干縣市政府他們在4年前也是這個縣長的名義就直接公布他的國土計劃但是4年後他現在所說的方向跟他4年前所公布的其實已經相差太多完全不一樣"},{"start":523.34,"end":549.306,"text":"而且我們聽到這個謠言的部分就是說你剛所提到的這個農一呢每一公頃要40萬塊然後農二呢每一公頃要30萬塊就變成農地是變成拿來炒作這個完全不符合國土計劃法現在所要推動的方向而且呢我們會認為國土計劃法的推動本來就是要在明年的4月30號一併來公布才能夠好好的規範全台灣各地國土的正確的運用"},{"start":550.666,"end":572.863,"text":"但是我們也會呼籲國土計劃法不要跟農業發展完全掛鉤因為掛鉤下去的話對於農業部他們平常跟農會跟農民還有對農地上的利用有他們的方法跟推動的方向反而會讓人家錯以為說國土計劃法是來做框架然後限制我們農民然後限制我們農地的發展"},{"start":573.183,"end":574.684,"text":"臺灣農業的永續發展是農業部的使命跟責任這樣子的一個政策的推動跟協助他不會因為國土計畫的推動"},{"start":596.732,"end":596.952,"text":"﹚蔡易餘﹚"},{"start":625.338,"end":647.76,"text":"農事的部分是跟鄉村有關的就是我們未來我們正在規劃鄉村的所有的規劃那未來像包括委員所關心的就是農舍的部分他不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他有他特定的興建農舍的辦法所以在農業發展區裡面你要做農舍的一個興建都會跟現在的辦法是一樣的"},{"start":648.18,"end":649.262,"text":"目前為什麼農民對於國土計畫法的誤解這麼深"},{"start":666.158,"end":689.16,"text":"主要還是來自他的文字的本身以及國土計畫應該有23項執法這23項執法目前保魂都還沒有出來沒有跟您補充一下24項裡面13項已經公佈另外9項現在正在預告當中所以就在預告所以我說這些執法應該跟國土計畫要一併來我們要一併去看待"},{"start":689.961,"end":703.277,"text":"所以你說很多你說事實上是有放寬可以使用的但是他在母法的時候他的文字就是寫禁止或限制其他使用就是說這樣的一個文字事實上框在那邊"},{"start":704.497,"end":732.654,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":733.005,"end":734.544,"text":"基本上他的文字"},{"start":736.247,"end":764.117,"text":"32條也是寫除了修上外不得增建或改建但是他現在如果是用錯的話也沒有限縮這就是這個母法的問題這個母法的問題在那你說我們現在有一些配套措施啊或者是我們一些對應的執法他有怎樣的一個辦法這些東西都和母法衝突啊所以我認為說我們需要時間就國土計劃法我們是不是在通盤來檢討一下然後我們不要貿然的就說我們把時間自己綁死自己"},{"start":764.617,"end":792.404,"text":"所以這段時間大家溝通不清楚我們就說好 上路我覺得這樣的話風險很大因為我想我們大家目標我們目標一致我們希望台灣的所有土地利用必須要有更完善的規劃以後的我們的土地勒是用計畫的引導的方式這個我們方向一致但是以目前大家誤會這麼深的情況之下是不是有一個更妥善的時間來做更好的溝通好的委員 我跟委員報告"},{"start":793.264,"end":819.589,"text":"剛剛委員說過 這個法是在2016年的5月定定完成 實施我也不相信當初訂這個法會完全沒有尊重顧慮到農民的權益但是現在看起來當中若干的解釋跟字眼跟文字上的用語確實是讓人家在解釋上或實施上之後會產生一些疑慮況且現在剛剛一開始說的還有9個縣市沒有送來我們除了請"},{"start":821.056,"end":839.415,"text":"內政部繼續的請地方政府完成這個功能圖的送來之外如果真的無法送來那麼我們對於明年4月要全國的實施上路是有困難的因為依照國土計畫法45條的規定他是要一併公告的不能夠割裂的那這個是"},{"start":840.706,"end":868.799,"text":"事實上因為有9個縣市沒有送來我們有這種事實上的困難法律上如果沒有一併公告我們也有法律上執法的困難那我也聽到來自縣市來自一些農民的團體甚至來自大院黨團的一些意見那麼還有一些外界的聲音都希望我們能夠再慎重那這個部分容許我們跟內政部跟農業部我們就事實的困難法律的困難跟外界的各種聲音我們會做最終的決定"},{"start":870.535,"end":887.124,"text":"這部分就要拜託院長跟我們兩位部長做整體的評估然後讓農民有信心我們這樣的一個法定的上路對他們是更有好處而不是要綁死他們這個我覺得一定要讓他們很清楚的知道這一點況且我們不論做了什麼決定農業部對農業的對農民的補助"},{"start":889.805,"end":909.045,"text":"在我們整個總統的政策底下幸福農家的這個政策底下我們絕對不會去輕忽忽略對農民相關的補助而且我們只會在制度上在補助上更精進更周全無論做什麼的決定因為現在法案是這樣因為它定4月30如果到時候事實上也沒辦法的話"},{"start":910.026,"end":910.667,"text":"剛剛委員所說的希望我們不要增加誤解"},{"start":940.856,"end":947.862,"text":"謝謝蔡委員謝謝左院長下一位請林思明委員質詢"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-20T10:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:35:20 - 15:51:08","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":154859}