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\"所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己的台灣我覺得這非常的重要因為這樣子我們的產業我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實所以這一部分我希望這個主委能夠加強注意那接下來我想一樣跟主委來研究我想據我們這個瞭解整個永續發展科學的研究所涉及的是跨領域的涵蓋社會科學經濟學自然科學跟工程技術科學等等您同意嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 342.802, \"end\": 342.902, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 342.902, \"end\": 343.162, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 343.162, \"end\": 343.302, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 343.302, \"end\": 343.462, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 343.462, \"end\": 343.562, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 343.562, \"end\": 343.723, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 343.723, \"end\": 344.123, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 344.123, \"end\": 344.843, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 344.843, \"end\": 345.003, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 345.003, \"end\": 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0.992}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 370.138, \"end\": 370.618, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 370.618, \"end\": 370.818, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 370.818, \"end\": 371.038, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 371.038, \"end\": 371.238, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 371.238, \"end\": 371.618, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 371.618, \"end\": 371.738, \"score\": 0.607}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 371.738, \"end\": 371.879, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 371.879, \"end\": 371.899, \"score\": 0.574}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 372.679, \"end\": 396.682, \"text\": \"同意同意好所以呢您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎對嗎是好8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後那這個會議裡面吶包括淨零路線啦綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對是好那所以永續發展是不是國家政策\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 372.679, \"end\": 372.859, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 372.859, \"end\": 373.14, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"同\", 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377.684, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 377.684, \"end\": 378.244, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 378.244, \"end\": 378.405, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 378.405, \"end\": 378.985, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 378.985, \"end\": 380.106, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 380.106, \"end\": 380.727, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 380.727, \"end\": 381.267, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 381.267, \"end\": 381.408, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 381.408, \"end\": 381.668, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 381.668, \"end\": 381.828, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 381.828, \"end\": 381.908, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 381.908, \"end\": 381.988, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 381.988, \"end\": 382.449, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 382.449, \"end\": 382.609, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 382.609, \"end\": 383.329, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 383.329, \"end\": 384.41, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 384.41, \"end\": 384.991, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"吶\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 384.991, \"end\": 385.271, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 385.271, \"end\": 385.672, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"淨\"}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 385.672, \"end\": 385.792, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 385.792, \"end\": 386.372, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 386.372, \"end\": 386.573, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 386.573, \"end\": 386.973, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 386.973, \"end\": 387.173, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 387.173, \"end\": 387.333, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 387.333, \"end\": 387.493, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 387.493, \"end\": 387.814, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 387.814, \"end\": 388.154, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 388.154, \"end\": 388.554, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 388.554, \"end\": 388.695, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 388.695, \"end\": 388.975, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"跨\", \"start\": 388.975, \"end\": 389.315, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"域\", \"start\": 389.315, \"end\": 389.475, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 389.475, \"end\": 389.996, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 389.996, \"end\": 390.937, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 390.937, \"end\": 391.557, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 391.557, \"end\": 391.698, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 391.698, \"end\": 391.798, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 391.798, \"end\": 391.898, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 391.898, \"end\": 391.998, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 391.998, \"end\": 392.198, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"永\", \"start\": 392.198, \"end\": 392.859, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 392.859, \"end\": 393.239, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 393.239, \"end\": 393.299, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 393.299, \"end\": 394.16, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"好\", 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\"所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答題的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 398.364, \"end\": 398.484, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 398.484, \"end\": 398.824, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 398.824, \"end\": 398.964, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 398.964, \"end\": 399.164, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 399.164, \"end\": 399.304, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 399.304, \"end\": 399.404, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 399.404, \"end\": 399.584, \"score\": 0.557}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 399.584, \"end\": 399.905, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 399.905, \"end\": 400.185, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 400.185, \"end\": 400.425, \"score\": 0.625}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 400.425, \"end\": 400.565, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 682.041, \"end\": 682.061, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 701.613, \"end\": 701.633, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 701.633, \"end\": 701.653, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"﹗\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 720.933, \"end\": 720.953, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 749.143, \"end\": 749.263, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 749.263, \"end\": 749.283, \"score\": 0.174}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 749.283, \"end\": 749.303, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 749.303, \"end\": 749.323, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 749.323, \"end\": 749.343, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 749.343, \"end\": 749.424, \"score\": 0.262}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 749.424, \"end\": 749.444, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 749.444, \"end\": 749.644, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 749.644, \"end\": 749.664, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 749.664, \"end\": 749.805, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"恩\", \"start\": 749.805, \"end\": 749.825, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 749.825, \"end\": 749.845, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:08,858\n有請吳主委好主委早主委今天早上看報紙了沒有\n\n2\n00:00:10,094 --> 00:00:12,395\n今天媒體大篇幅的報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19\n\n3\n00:00:31,579 --> 00:00:31,779\n主委﹗\n\n4\n00:00:50,325 --> 00:01:08,581\n剛剛其實也跟紅委員報告過就是我們現在正在努力在增加我們的算力那這個是國家的資源還是蠻有限的主委我想我的問題非常簡單投入這麼多的資源也沒有說你們不努力我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源結果我們的AI進程不升反降原因是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:09,793 --> 00:01:25,399\n我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了\n\n6\n00:01:31,441 --> 00:01:58,158\n但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了\n\n7\n00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:23,724\n其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣子嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的\n\n8\n00:02:24,204 --> 00:02:48,498\n主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以您同意我這邊說我不同意您剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎\n\n9\n00:02:52,841 --> 00:02:55,783\n主委啊謬論啊自己也要發展好要兼顧啊什麼先把全世界都我們先支持他們然後自己餓肚子沒關係沒有這種說法喔如果喔主委\n\n10\n00:03:13,337 --> 00:03:13,357\n委員會議員\n\n11\n00:03:29,928 --> 00:03:46,902\n接下來我想本席再跟您討論這個在主委你剛上任的時候其實本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門這個有使用這個生成式AI工具的只有38%左右\n\n12\n00:03:49,263 --> 00:04:13,045\n導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實\n\n13\n00:04:13,746 --> 00:04:14,687\n請主委做一個簡單的說明\n\n14\n00:04:25,947 --> 00:04:53,497\n好那個萬美玲我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度\n\n15\n00:04:53,917 --> 00:05:22,686\n所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院\n\n16\n00:05:24,287 --> 00:05:29,331\n主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部\n\n17\n00:05:42,802 --> 00:06:11,899\n所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己的台灣我覺得這非常的重要因為這樣子我們的產業我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實所以這一部分我希望這個主委能夠加強注意那接下來我想一樣跟主委來研究我想據我們這個瞭解整個永續發展科學的研究所涉及的是跨領域的涵蓋社會科學經濟學自然科學跟工程技術科學等等您同意嗎\n\n18\n00:06:12,679 --> 00:06:36,682\n同意同意好所以呢您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎對嗎是好8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後那這個會議裡面吶包括淨零路線啦綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對是好那所以永續發展是不是國家政策\n\n19\n00:06:38,364 --> 00:07:04,341\n所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答題的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講\n\n20\n00:07:07,403 --> 00:07:32,467\n第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦我想都不至於把一個完全空穴來風的事情當作這麼有一回事\n\n21\n00:07:32,887 --> 00:07:59,423\n您剛才說這個部分是我們只在討論可行性不知道為什麼外流然後就變這麼嚴重我想我是不太能接受啦那再來那這個事情已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛才回答也是說哎呀我們很重視啊我們年年都有編預算啊這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這個三個學門去拆解掉這個有符合永續的這個概念嗎\n\n22\n00:08:02,625 --> 00:08:03,946\n報告委員我們並沒有要猜解啊從來都沒有講過這句話\n\n23\n00:08:22,907 --> 00:08:40,331\n所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的\n\n24\n00:08:40,885 --> 00:08:58,432\n我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意\n\n25\n00:09:01,365 --> 00:09:26,812\n主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊\n\n26\n00:09:27,512 --> 00:09:37,179\n所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎\n\n27\n00:09:41,144 --> 00:09:45,045\n主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼\n\n28\n00:10:11,363 --> 00:10:30,711\n我請我們自然處處長來回覆。好,報告委員。我們有些是因為年度的更動,我們並沒有去update。所以年度的更動,好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動?抱歉。所以要不要改進?我們會改進,謝謝。\n\n29\n00:10:50,509 --> 00:11:01,333\n接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個\n\n30\n00:11:17,858 --> 00:11:22,061\n因為我們整合型計畫多年期的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中\n\n31\n00:11:41,613 --> 00:11:41,653\n主席﹗\n\n32\n00:12:00,933 --> 00:12:00,953\n謝謝委員\n\n33\n00:12:29,143 --> 00:12:29,845\n主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯志恩委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t8858\t有請吳主委好 主委早 主委今天早上看報紙了沒有\n10094\t12395\t今天媒體大篇幅的報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19\n31579\t31779\t主委﹗\n50325\t68581\t剛剛其實也跟紅委員報告過就是我們現在正在努力在增加我們的算力那這個是國家的資源還是蠻有限的主委我想我的問題非常簡單投入這麼多的資源也沒有說你們不努力我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源結果我們的AI進程不升反降原因是什麼\n69793\t85399\t我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了\n91441\t118158\t但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了\n119076\t143724\t其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣子嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的\n144204\t168498\t主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以您同意我這邊說我不同意您剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎\n172841\t175783\t主委啊 謬論啊 自己也要發展好 要兼顧啊 什麼先把全世界都 我們先支持他們 然後自己餓肚子沒關係 沒有這種說法喔如果喔 主委\n193337\t193357\t委員會議員\n209928\t226902\t接下來我想本席再跟您討論這個在主委你剛上任的時候其實本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門這個有使用這個生成式AI工具的只有38%左右\n229263\t253045\t導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實\n253746\t254687\t請主委做一個簡單的說明\n265947\t293497\t好 那個萬美玲我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度\n293917\t322686\t所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院\n324287\t329331\t主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部\n342802\t371899\t所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己的台灣我覺得這非常的重要因為這樣子我們的產業我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實所以這一部分我希望這個主委能夠加強注意那接下來我想一樣跟主委來研究我想據我們這個瞭解整個永續發展科學的研究所涉及的是跨領域的涵蓋社會科學經濟學自然科學跟工程技術科學等等您同意嗎\n372679\t396682\t同意同意好所以呢您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎對嗎是好8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後那這個會議裡面吶包括淨零路線啦綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對是好那所以永續發展是不是國家政策\n398364\t424341\t所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答題的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講\n427403\t452467\t第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦我想都不至於把一個完全空穴來風的事情當作這麼有一回事\n452887\t479423\t您剛才說這個部分是我們只在討論可行性不知道為什麼外流然後就變這麼嚴重我想我是不太能接受啦那再來那這個事情已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛才回答也是說哎呀我們很重視啊我們年年都有編預算啊這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這個三個學門去拆解掉這個有符合永續的這個概念嗎\n482625\t483946\t報告委員 我們並沒有要猜解啊 從來都沒有講過這句話\n502907\t520331\t所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的\n520885\t538432\t我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意\n541365\t566812\t主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊\n567512\t577179\t所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎\n581144\t585045\t主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼\n611363\t630711\t我請我們自然處處長來回覆。好,報告委員。我們有些是因為年度的更動,我們並沒有去update。所以年度的更動,好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動?抱歉。所以要不要改進?我們會改進,謝謝。\n635350\t650469\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n650509\t661333\t接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個\n677858\t682061\t因為我們整合型計畫多年期的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中\n701613\t701653\t主席﹗\n720933\t720953\t謝謝委員\n749143\t749845\t主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯志恩委員\n","txt":"有請吳主委好 主委早 主委今天早上看報紙了沒有\n今天媒體大篇幅的報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19\n主委﹗\n剛剛其實也跟紅委員報告過就是我們現在正在努力在增加我們的算力那這個是國家的資源還是蠻有限的主委我想我的問題非常簡單投入這麼多的資源也沒有說你們不努力我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源結果我們的AI進程不升反降原因是什麼\n我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了\n但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了\n其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣子嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的\n主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以您同意我這邊說我不同意您剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎\n主委啊 謬論啊 自己也要發展好 要兼顧啊 什麼先把全世界都 我們先支持他們 然後自己餓肚子沒關係 沒有這種說法喔如果喔 主委\n委員會議員\n接下來我想本席再跟您討論這個在主委你剛上任的時候其實本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門這個有使用這個生成式AI工具的只有38%左右\n導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實\n請主委做一個簡單的說明\n好 那個萬美玲我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度\n所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院\n主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部\n所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己的台灣我覺得這非常的重要因為這樣子我們的產業我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實所以這一部分我希望這個主委能夠加強注意那接下來我想一樣跟主委來研究我想據我們這個瞭解整個永續發展科學的研究所涉及的是跨領域的涵蓋社會科學經濟學自然科學跟工程技術科學等等您同意嗎\n同意同意好所以呢您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎對嗎是好8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後那這個會議裡面吶包括淨零路線啦綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對是好那所以永續發展是不是國家政策\n所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答題的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講\n第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦我想都不至於把一個完全空穴來風的事情當作這麼有一回事\n您剛才說這個部分是我們只在討論可行性不知道為什麼外流然後就變這麼嚴重我想我是不太能接受啦那再來那這個事情已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛才回答也是說哎呀我們很重視啊我們年年都有編預算啊這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這個三個學門去拆解掉這個有符合永續的這個概念嗎\n報告委員 我們並沒有要猜解啊 從來都沒有講過這句話\n所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的\n我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意\n主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊\n所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎\n主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼\n我請我們自然處處長來回覆。好,報告委員。我們有些是因為年度的更動,我們並沒有去update。所以年度的更動,好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動?抱歉。所以要不要改進?我們會改進,謝謝。\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個\n因為我們整合型計畫多年期的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中\n主席﹗\n謝謝委員\n主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯志恩委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:08.858\n有請吳主委好主委早主委今天早上看報紙了沒有\n\n00:10.094 --> 00:12.395\n今天媒體大篇幅的報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19\n\n00:31.579 --> 00:31.779\n主委﹗\n\n00:50.325 --> 01:08.581\n剛剛其實也跟紅委員報告過就是我們現在正在努力在增加我們的算力那這個是國家的資源還是蠻有限的主委我想我的問題非常簡單投入這麼多的資源也沒有說你們不努力我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源結果我們的AI進程不升反降原因是什麼\n\n01:09.793 --> 01:25.399\n我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了\n\n01:31.441 --> 01:58.158\n但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了\n\n01:59.076 --> 02:23.724\n其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣子嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的\n\n02:24.204 --> 02:48.498\n主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以您同意我這邊說我不同意您剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎\n\n02:52.841 --> 02:55.783\n主委啊謬論啊自己也要發展好要兼顧啊什麼先把全世界都我們先支持他們然後自己餓肚子沒關係沒有這種說法喔如果喔主委\n\n03:13.337 --> 03:13.357\n委員會議員\n\n03:29.928 --> 03:46.902\n接下來我想本席再跟您討論這個在主委你剛上任的時候其實本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門這個有使用這個生成式AI工具的只有38%左右\n\n03:49.263 --> 04:13.045\n導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實\n\n04:13.746 --> 04:14.687\n請主委做一個簡單的說明\n\n04:25.947 --> 04:53.497\n好那個萬美玲我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度\n\n04:53.917 --> 05:22.686\n所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院\n\n05:24.287 --> 05:29.331\n主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部\n\n05:42.802 --> 06:11.899\n所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己的台灣我覺得這非常的重要因為這樣子我們的產業我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實所以這一部分我希望這個主委能夠加強注意那接下來我想一樣跟主委來研究我想據我們這個瞭解整個永續發展科學的研究所涉及的是跨領域的涵蓋社會科學經濟學自然科學跟工程技術科學等等您同意嗎\n\n06:12.679 --> 06:36.682\n同意同意好所以呢您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎對嗎是好8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後那這個會議裡面吶包括淨零路線啦綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對是好那所以永續發展是不是國家政策\n\n06:38.364 --> 07:04.341\n所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答題的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講\n\n07:07.403 --> 07:32.467\n第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦我想都不至於把一個完全空穴來風的事情當作這麼有一回事\n\n07:32.887 --> 07:59.423\n您剛才說這個部分是我們只在討論可行性不知道為什麼外流然後就變這麼嚴重我想我是不太能接受啦那再來那這個事情已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛才回答也是說哎呀我們很重視啊我們年年都有編預算啊這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這個三個學門去拆解掉這個有符合永續的這個概念嗎\n\n08:02.625 --> 08:03.946\n報告委員我們並沒有要猜解啊從來都沒有講過這句話\n\n08:22.907 --> 08:40.331\n所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的\n\n08:40.885 --> 08:58.432\n我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意\n\n09:01.365 --> 09:26.812\n主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊\n\n09:27.512 --> 09:37.179\n所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎\n\n09:41.144 --> 09:45.045\n主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼\n\n10:11.363 --> 10:30.711\n我請我們自然處處長來回覆。好,報告委員。我們有些是因為年度的更動,我們並沒有去update。所以年度的更動,好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動?抱歉。所以要不要改進?我們會改進,謝謝。\n\n10:50.509 --> 11:01.333\n接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個\n\n11:17.858 --> 11:22.061\n因為我們整合型計畫多年期的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中\n\n11:41.613 --> 11:41.653\n主席﹗\n\n12:00.933 --> 12:00.953\n謝謝委員\n\n12:29.143 --> 12:29.845\n主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯志恩委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":8.858,"text":"有請吳主委好 主委早 主委今天早上看報紙了沒有"},{"start":10.094,"end":12.395,"text":"今天媒體大篇幅的報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19"},{"start":31.579,"end":31.779,"text":"主委﹗"},{"start":50.325,"end":68.581,"text":"剛剛其實也跟紅委員報告過就是我們現在正在努力在增加我們的算力那這個是國家的資源還是蠻有限的主委我想我的問題非常簡單投入這麼多的資源也沒有說你們不努力我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源結果我們的AI進程不升反降原因是什麼"},{"start":69.793,"end":85.399,"text":"我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了"},{"start":91.441,"end":118.158,"text":"但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了"},{"start":119.076,"end":143.724,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣子嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的"},{"start":144.204,"end":168.498,"text":"主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以您同意我這邊說我不同意您剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎"},{"start":172.841,"end":175.783,"text":"主委啊 謬論啊 自己也要發展好 要兼顧啊 什麼先把全世界都 我們先支持他們 然後自己餓肚子沒關係 沒有這種說法喔如果喔 主委"},{"start":193.337,"end":193.357,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":209.928,"end":226.902,"text":"接下來我想本席再跟您討論這個在主委你剛上任的時候其實本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門這個有使用這個生成式AI工具的只有38%左右"},{"start":229.263,"end":253.045,"text":"導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實"},{"start":253.746,"end":254.687,"text":"請主委做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":265.947,"end":293.497,"text":"好 那個萬美玲我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度"},{"start":293.917,"end":322.686,"text":"所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院"},{"start":324.287,"end":329.331,"text":"主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部"},{"start":342.802,"end":371.899,"text":"所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己的台灣我覺得這非常的重要因為這樣子我們的產業我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實所以這一部分我希望這個主委能夠加強注意那接下來我想一樣跟主委來研究我想據我們這個瞭解整個永續發展科學的研究所涉及的是跨領域的涵蓋社會科學經濟學自然科學跟工程技術科學等等您同意嗎"},{"start":372.679,"end":396.682,"text":"同意同意好所以呢您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎對嗎是好8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後那這個會議裡面吶包括淨零路線啦綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對是好那所以永續發展是不是國家政策"},{"start":398.364,"end":424.341,"text":"所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答題的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講"},{"start":427.403,"end":452.467,"text":"第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦我想都不至於把一個完全空穴來風的事情當作這麼有一回事"},{"start":452.887,"end":479.423,"text":"您剛才說這個部分是我們只在討論可行性不知道為什麼外流然後就變這麼嚴重我想我是不太能接受啦那再來那這個事情已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛才回答也是說哎呀我們很重視啊我們年年都有編預算啊這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這個三個學門去拆解掉這個有符合永續的這個概念嗎"},{"start":482.625,"end":483.946,"text":"報告委員 我們並沒有要猜解啊 從來都沒有講過這句話"},{"start":502.907,"end":520.331,"text":"所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的"},{"start":520.885,"end":538.432,"text":"我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意"},{"start":541.365,"end":566.812,"text":"主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊"},{"start":567.512,"end":577.179,"text":"所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎"},{"start":581.144,"end":585.045,"text":"主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼"},{"start":611.363,"end":630.711,"text":"我請我們自然處處長來回覆。好,報告委員。我們有些是因為年度的更動,我們並沒有去update。所以年度的更動,好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動?抱歉。所以要不要改進?我們會改進,謝謝。"},{"start":635.35,"end":650.469,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":650.509,"end":661.333,"text":"接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個"},{"start":677.858,"end":682.061,"text":"因為我們整合型計畫多年期的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中"},{"start":701.613,"end":701.653,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":720.933,"end":720.953,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":749.143,"end":749.845,"text":"主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯志恩委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:24:22 - 09:36:56","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":154934,"gazette":{"lineno":158,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時24分）謝謝召委。有請吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委早。主委，今天早上看報紙了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：早上還沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：還沒有？好，我幫你讀報一下。今天媒體大篇幅報導，我國推動臺灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億，明年再編列157.48億，但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效，我國AI準備度世界排名19，攸關AI產業重心的超級電腦算力也下滑到17，連國科會自建的臺灣杉2號，也從排名85下滑到106。為什麼我們投入這麼多資源，但是我們的AI進程不升反降？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛剛其實也跟洪委員報告過，我們現在正在努力增加我們的算力，但國家的資源還是滿有限的……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我的問題非常簡單。投入這麼多的資源，也沒有說你們不努力，我只是想知道為什麼投入這麼多資源，結果我們的AI進程不升反降？原因是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：主要是在應用上需要再努力發展，過去我們比較不注重在自主的……"],["萬委員美玲：應用上面，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI的應用。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，上一次專報時本席也發現，其實我們從107年就開始推動AI行動計畫。從預算中心的資料我看到一個很弔詭的地方，就是我國的AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降。也就是我們在107年推動AI行動計畫，但我們在AI的世界排名卻從那一刻開始不斷下降！這是不是代表從那時候到現在，我們很多關於AI的預算，包括您剛剛所說不斷增加的很多經費，其實全部都打水漂了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：跟委員報告，其實並沒有打水漂，因為臺灣是在協助全世界。過去大部分……"],["萬委員美玲：臺灣協助全世界，結果自己都顧不好，是這樣子嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：忽略了自己的應用……"],["萬委員美玲：你這個情操太高了！忽略自己，讓自己不斷衰退，讓自己不斷弱下來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有衰退，我們……"],["萬委員美玲：自己都沒有顧好，然後去顧全世界？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們幫全世界創造非常多、非常高效能的硬體……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，沒有這種說法！自己家小孩吃不飽，然後先餵別人家小孩吃，這什麼理論？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們如果沒有這個產業存在，也不會有那麼好的經濟發展……"],["萬委員美玲：和全世界合作或協助，本席絕對贊成，但我們自己臺灣的競爭力，我們的AI是不是要提升？這也是必須要注意的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意！我們現在經濟發展得好……"],["萬委員美玲：您同意我說的，但我不同意您剛剛說的，我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人，這樣對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可是我們要先賺錢才有辦法投資。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我們來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟發展好以後，接下來我們會很努力發展本土的應用。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，謬論！自己也要發展好，要兼顧……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是……"],["萬委員美玲：什麼叫先把全世界……我們先支持他們，然後自己餓肚子沒關係？沒有這種說法！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有餓肚子，我們只是說……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我很義正辭嚴在這裡跟您說，我們給你這麼多的預算，但所有數值、所有競爭力、所有排名一直往下降，那麼不好意思，今年的預算我們要再重新斟酌！因為給了你錢你沒有辦法有成效出來！","接下來本席再跟您討論，在主委剛上任時，其實本席也有提醒過主委，目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常差，你還記得嗎？當時本席有提醒。不管是個人或部門，使用生成式AI工具的只有38%左右，導入公司營運流程的只有16%，整體臺灣企業約有84%是處於AI化的前期階段。您剛上任時我有跟您提過這個，不曉得你有沒有重視？再來，國科會在2022臺灣AI國力調查中，公部門AI成熟度的等級只有3.3，在整個排行倒數第三。我也詢問過另外一個非常重要的問題：現在AI基本法草案進度到哪裡了？以上問題，是不是請主委做簡單說明？"],["吳主任委員誠文：跟萬委員報告，上次委員也關心這個議題，本來明年預算都編好了，但我們做了一些調整，把在硬體相關的投資資源……因為我們的硬體已經做得非常好，產業發展得很好，所以我們希望把一部分的資源拿來做AI應用軟體的開發、雲端服務的建置，這是我們接下來、下年度的重點……"],["萬委員美玲：所以現在預算的使用有做調整了，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有做調整了，且依照各位委員的建議做調整。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，這非常重要。我直接問你，AI基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經預告結束，國科會法規會也討論通過，做了非常小的修正，我們會連同這些修正在10月底之前送行政院。"],["萬委員美玲：好。主委，本席在這裡再一次提醒您，我們要打造AI之島，但並不是只有您剛剛所說的先賺錢，讓AI供應鏈的護國群山產業去賺錢，外銷出口的數字亮麗，其實這是成績之一，但是它不是全部，所以我想我們要怎麼樣把AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生、我們自己臺灣啦，我覺得這非常的重要。因為這樣子我們的產業，我們的民眾才能去共享我們整個研究的果實，所以這一部分我希望主委能夠加強注意。","接下來，我一樣要跟主委來研究，據我們的了解，整個永續發展科學的研究，所涉及的是跨領域的，涵蓋社會科學、經濟學、自然科學跟工程技術、科學等等，您同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["萬委員美玲：同意！您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嘛，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：8月8號您去參加第一次會議之後，這個會議裡面包括淨零路線、綠能減碳等等，有七大不同跨領域的議題在裡頭，會議當中也有提到永續發展，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：所以永續發展是不是國家政策？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：是！所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：但是今天、剛剛也有委員提到嘛，其實在主委參加完這個總統所主持的會議之後，傳出國科會以跨領域研究過於分散，不具成效，就要去拆解三學門到其他領域，或者轉入工程處。剛剛本席聽您在答詢的時候說，這是一個天大的誤會，但是我要講的是，第一個，當時敘明的理由這麼清楚，事後傳出來是說，你是因為跨領域研究過於分散，而且不具成效，看來你的說法完全是空穴來風嗎？恐怕也未必！再來，高達600位學者去連署，這600位學者，我想不管是他們的見識、專業，我想都不至於把一個完全空穴來風的事情，當作有這麼一回事，而且還下去連署。所以您剛剛說這個部分是你們只在討論可行性，不知道為什麼會外流，然後就變這麼嚴重，我想我是不太能接受啦。再來，這個事情已經開始連署，已經燒起來了，但是國科會回答的意思是說，包括您剛剛在回答時也是說「我們很重視，我們年年都有編預算」，這到底是回答什麼東西？大家是在問您說為什麼要把這個三個學門去拆解掉，這個有符合永續的概念嗎？而且如果說真的現在我們要把這個三個學門放到其他的領域，或者是做其他的處理，那之前的研究就完全不符合永續啊。結果你的回答是說「沒有，我們年年都有編預算」，那你想想看，這將近600個學者怎麼能接受呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們並沒有要拆解，從來都沒有講過這句話啊，並沒有這回事。"],["萬委員美玲：所以今天大家才會問你嘛，第一個，為什麼學者會這麼認為？第二個，為什麼媒體會這麼認為？第三個，為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候，得到的答案，你還是只是告訴我們說「沒有，我們很重視，所以我們都有編預算」，所以你能不能再說清楚一點？完全空穴來風，這是不可能的！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛已經講得非常清楚，但是我也不知道為什麼有這麼多人會連署，如果對我不滿意，當然也可以來舉出具體的，我們看看怎麼樣去討論、去改善，這個部分沒有問題……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你認為這件事情是空穴來風，是衝著您個人來的，對您不滿意？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我就不知道，我從來就是沒有做過虧心事啦，所以我並不擔心，任何的討論我都歡迎。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，所以這個焦點很奇怪，大家在討論一個很具體的永續的一個事情，然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意。當然，我想說你要讓大家滿意，這件事當然是很重要，但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性、執行力，這才是最重要的啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可是這個政策沒有改變啊，我們完全都沒有變啊。"],["萬委員美玲：好！所以我想以後你就要更審慎，如果什麼都沒有，為什麼學者會這樣誤會，媒體會這樣誤會？我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我會自己檢討。"],["萬委員美玲：自己檢討！檢討您個人嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是啊，不然怎麼辦，因為我根本不知道為什麼會有這樣的……"],["萬委員美玲：怎麼會有一個主委做到這麼無奈！","主委，我想如果查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站，裡面洋洋灑灑，其實總共大概有11個學門，但是本席發現在這網站中，各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳，有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了，還有一些部分的學門，只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼，這是為什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請我們自然處處長來回應。"],["萬委員美玲：30秒，為什麼？"],["賴處長明治：報告委員，有些是因為年度的更動，我們並沒有去update，這個我們會適時的檢討……"],["萬委員美玲：所以年度的更動，好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，我們會來改善。"],["萬委員美玲：所以要不要改進？"],["賴處長明治：我們會改進，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：這是非常不好的，好不好？因為你創建這麼多學門，也投入很多的研究費用嘛，我覺得就應該讓民眾大家清楚的了解啊，這種多年不更動，叫做年度有更動，這我們不能接受！如果是這樣的話，這個預算給的是冤枉、好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，我們會改善。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來，我想一樣，我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明，裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形，本席發現，新申請的案件從109年開始下降，從251件下降到218件。更嚴重的是，新申請案件通過的比率，從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%，為什麼申請數越來越少，然後通過的比例率也越來越低？這莫非是剛才所說的學門可能被合併、拆解，什麼等等原因之一嗎？為什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，因為我們整合型計畫多年期的核定越來越多，所以新申請的自然就會減少，因為我們的經費都一直在增加，沒有減少，經費是在增加當中。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我想經費在增加當中，我們就要讓這個經費、預算做最有效果的善用嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：所以我們希望看看用什麼方式可以讓大家都願意來申請，有更多好的案子。我想最後也要跟主委講，我想永續發展也是賴總統以及我們國家重要的政策跟研究方向之一，我想不管是這次我們看到貿然提出了一些調整，無論是您說的誤會也好，或是讓人家誤解也好，或者是這整個計畫補助的數量逐年下降，我想都跟我們政策方向會有相違背……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們逐年增加。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我想不管您想要檢討個人，或者檢討整個國科會在執行上面有沒有需要調整的，我覺得這個腳步都要加快，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：主委請回，謝謝萬美玲委員。","再來我們請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}}