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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,702 --> 00:00:07,664\n來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委請主委林委員長主委長主委\n\n2\n00:00:19,676 --> 00:00:43,561\n這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢喔三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購阿廠商旅業的驗收阿被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收阿可以用素面那這些照片阿我現在就這個以貪污師為例阿橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假\n\n3\n00:00:45,339 --> 00:01:07,506\n那三年過去了啦,現在這種勞務驗收啦,造假的狀況啊,一樣層出不窮啦。我來給你看一個台北市的例子。我剛給你看的先講好,台南市三年前的例子。那台北市啊,台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊,這個旅遊廠商啊,那驗收啦,他一樣用造假的照片啊,這是不同日期不同地點的。\n\n4\n00:01:09,232 --> 00:01:17,324\n的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點然後去抓了那審計部去抓了\n\n5\n00:01:18,598 --> 00:01:46,540\n他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件\n\n6\n00:01:48,593 --> 00:01:55,887\n所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來物採購的規範裡面\n\n7\n00:02:00,353 --> 00:02:27,916\n本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊\n\n8\n00:02:29,369 --> 00:02:33,960\n來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備\n\n9\n00:02:36,615 --> 00:03:04,084\n謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年8萬6千件各機關真的沒有能力\n\n10\n00:03:05,484 --> 00:03:24,469\n我現在接你你應該你們工程會負責主管這個部分現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術你可以去識別重複的照片或者去識別重複的檔案\n\n11\n00:03:26,328 --> 00:03:34,684\n甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式\n\n12\n00:03:35,663 --> 00:04:02,662\n也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的\n\n13\n00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:04,840\n委員會主任委員會主席\n\n14\n00:04:17,165 --> 00:04:18,827\n現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應\n\n15\n00:04:43,956 --> 00:05:01,764\n因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收\n\n16\n00:05:03,454 --> 00:05:16,283\n探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在\n\n17\n00:05:21,147 --> 00:05:47,124\n公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話\n\n18\n00:05:48,584 --> 00:06:09,676\n那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦\n\n19\n00:06:14,434 --> 00:06:40,269\n根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你這個這個這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的\n\n20\n00:06:42,449 --> 00:06:56,860\n公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千\n\n21\n00:06:58,061 --> 00:07:25,498\n一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排\n\n22\n00:07:26,538 --> 00:07:34,024\n謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者\n\n23\n00:07:39,060 --> 00:08:06,969\n業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧\n\n24\n00:08:08,854 --> 00:08:17,512\n徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊\n\n25\n00:08:19,234 --> 00:08:38,859\n實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊\n\n26\n00:08:41,622 --> 00:08:56,077\n那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調\n\n27\n00:08:57,418 --> 00:09:12,061\n其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少\n\n28\n00:09:12,802 --> 00:09:40,096\n所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動\n\n29\n00:09:42,229 --> 00:09:49,500\n這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中\n\n30\n00:09:52,450 --> 00:10:19,926\n還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦\n\n31\n00:10:20,828 --> 00:10:24,651\n主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量\n\n32\n00:10:41,707 --> 00:10:41,807\n林俊憲議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3702\t7664\t來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委請主委林委員長主委長主委\n19676\t43561\t這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢喔三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購阿廠商旅業的驗收阿被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收阿可以用素面那這些照片阿我現在就這個以貪污師為例阿橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假\n45339\t67506\t那三年過去了啦,現在這種勞務驗收啦,造假的狀況啊,一樣層出不窮啦。我來給你看一個台北市的例子。我剛給你看的先講好,台南市三年前的例子。那台北市啊,台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊,這個旅遊廠商啊,那驗收啦,他一樣用造假的照片啊,這是不同日期不同地點的。\n69232\t77324\t的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點然後去抓了那審計部去抓了\n78598\t106540\t他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件\n108593\t115887\t所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來物採購的規範裡面\n120353\t147916\t本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊\n149369\t153960\t來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備\n156615\t184084\t謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年8萬6千件各機關真的沒有能力\n185484\t204469\t我現在接你 你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分 現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西 現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案\n206328\t214684\t甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式\n215663\t242662\t也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的\n244360\t244840\t委員會主任委員會主席\n257165\t258827\t現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應\n283956\t301764\t因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收\n303454\t316283\t探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在\n321147\t347124\t公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話\n348584\t369676\t那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦\n374434\t400269\t根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你 這個 這個 這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的\n402449\t416860\t公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千\n418061\t445498\t一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排\n446538\t454024\t謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者\n459060\t486969\t業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧\n488854\t497512\t徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊\n499234\t518859\t實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊\n521622\t536077\t那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調\n537418\t552061\t其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少\n552802\t580096\t所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動\n582229\t589500\t這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中\n592450\t619926\t還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦\n620828\t624651\t主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量\n641707\t641807\t林俊憲議員\n","txt":"來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委請主委林委員長主委長主委\n這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢喔三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購阿廠商旅業的驗收阿被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收阿可以用素面那這些照片阿我現在就這個以貪污師為例阿橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假\n那三年過去了啦,現在這種勞務驗收啦,造假的狀況啊,一樣層出不窮啦。我來給你看一個台北市的例子。我剛給你看的先講好,台南市三年前的例子。那台北市啊,台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊,這個旅遊廠商啊,那驗收啦,他一樣用造假的照片啊,這是不同日期不同地點的。\n的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點然後去抓了那審計部去抓了\n他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件\n所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來物採購的規範裡面\n本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊\n來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備\n謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年8萬6千件各機關真的沒有能力\n我現在接你 你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分 現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西 現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案\n甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式\n也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的\n委員會主任委員會主席\n現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應\n因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收\n探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在\n公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話\n那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦\n根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你 這個 這個 這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的\n公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千\n一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排\n謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者\n業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧\n徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊\n實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊\n那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調\n其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少\n所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動\n這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中\n還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦\n主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量\n林俊憲議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.702 --> 00:07.664\n來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委請主委林委員長主委長主委\n\n00:19.676 --> 00:43.561\n這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢喔三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購阿廠商旅業的驗收阿被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收阿可以用素面那這些照片阿我現在就這個以貪污師為例阿橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假\n\n00:45.339 --> 01:07.506\n那三年過去了啦,現在這種勞務驗收啦,造假的狀況啊,一樣層出不窮啦。我來給你看一個台北市的例子。我剛給你看的先講好,台南市三年前的例子。那台北市啊,台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊,這個旅遊廠商啊,那驗收啦,他一樣用造假的照片啊,這是不同日期不同地點的。\n\n01:09.232 --> 01:17.324\n的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點然後去抓了那審計部去抓了\n\n01:18.598 --> 01:46.540\n他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件\n\n01:48.593 --> 01:55.887\n所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來物採購的規範裡面\n\n02:00.353 --> 02:27.916\n本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊\n\n02:29.369 --> 02:33.960\n來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備\n\n02:36.615 --> 03:04.084\n謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年8萬6千件各機關真的沒有能力\n\n03:05.484 --> 03:24.469\n我現在接你你應該你們工程會負責主管這個部分現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術你可以去識別重複的照片或者去識別重複的檔案\n\n03:26.328 --> 03:34.684\n甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式\n\n03:35.663 --> 04:02.662\n也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的\n\n04:04.360 --> 04:04.840\n委員會主任委員會主席\n\n04:17.165 --> 04:18.827\n現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應\n\n04:43.956 --> 05:01.764\n因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收\n\n05:03.454 --> 05:16.283\n探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在\n\n05:21.147 --> 05:47.124\n公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話\n\n05:48.584 --> 06:09.676\n那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦\n\n06:14.434 --> 06:40.269\n根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你這個這個這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的\n\n06:42.449 --> 06:56.860\n公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千\n\n06:58.061 --> 07:25.498\n一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排\n\n07:26.538 --> 07:34.024\n謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者\n\n07:39.060 --> 08:06.969\n業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧\n\n08:08.854 --> 08:17.512\n徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊\n\n08:19.234 --> 08:38.859\n實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊\n\n08:41.622 --> 08:56.077\n那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調\n\n08:57.418 --> 09:12.061\n其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少\n\n09:12.802 --> 09:40.096\n所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動\n\n09:42.229 --> 09:49.500\n這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中\n\n09:52.450 --> 10:19.926\n還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦\n\n10:20.828 --> 10:24.651\n主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量\n\n10:41.707 --> 10:41.807\n林俊憲議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.702,"end":7.664,"text":"來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委請主委林委員長主委長主委"},{"start":19.676,"end":43.561,"text":"這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢喔三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購阿廠商旅業的驗收阿被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收阿可以用素面那這些照片阿我現在就這個以貪污師為例阿橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假"},{"start":45.339,"end":67.506,"text":"那三年過去了啦,現在這種勞務驗收啦,造假的狀況啊,一樣層出不窮啦。我來給你看一個台北市的例子。我剛給你看的先講好,台南市三年前的例子。那台北市啊,台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊,這個旅遊廠商啊,那驗收啦,他一樣用造假的照片啊,這是不同日期不同地點的。"},{"start":69.232,"end":77.324,"text":"的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點然後去抓了那審計部去抓了"},{"start":78.598,"end":106.54,"text":"他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件"},{"start":108.593,"end":115.887,"text":"所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來物採購的規範裡面"},{"start":120.353,"end":147.916,"text":"本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊"},{"start":149.369,"end":153.96,"text":"來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備"},{"start":156.615,"end":184.084,"text":"謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年8萬6千件各機關真的沒有能力"},{"start":185.484,"end":204.469,"text":"我現在接你 你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分 現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西 現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案"},{"start":206.328,"end":214.684,"text":"甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式"},{"start":215.663,"end":242.662,"text":"也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的"},{"start":244.36,"end":244.84,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":257.165,"end":258.827,"text":"現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應"},{"start":283.956,"end":301.764,"text":"因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收"},{"start":303.454,"end":316.283,"text":"探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在"},{"start":321.147,"end":347.124,"text":"公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話"},{"start":348.584,"end":369.676,"text":"那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦"},{"start":374.434,"end":400.269,"text":"根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你 這個 這個 這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的"},{"start":402.449,"end":416.86,"text":"公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千"},{"start":418.061,"end":445.498,"text":"一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排"},{"start":446.538,"end":454.024,"text":"謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者"},{"start":459.06,"end":486.969,"text":"業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧"},{"start":488.854,"end":497.512,"text":"徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊"},{"start":499.234,"end":518.859,"text":"實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊"},{"start":521.622,"end":536.077,"text":"那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調"},{"start":537.418,"end":552.061,"text":"其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少"},{"start":552.802,"end":580.096,"text":"所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動"},{"start":582.229,"end":589.5,"text":"這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中"},{"start":592.45,"end":619.926,"text":"還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦"},{"start":620.828,"end":624.651,"text":"主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量"},{"start":641.707,"end":641.807,"text":"林俊憲議員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:12:13 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