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00:01:30,715\n所以本席想在這邊想知道就是說我們為了因應少子化的現況在推動公部門的設置職場的托育設施那是否有這個公告相關的設置參考之意\n\n5\n00:01:32,842 --> 00:01:46,195\n因為我們事實上過去這段時間跟衛福部交易部我們都有做這樣的一個宣導還有相關的資訊都有公開那到截至到目前為止我們總共脫陰脫幼的設置總共設了195處\n\n6\n00:01:50,279 --> 00:02:10,479\n不過我這裡也要跟委員報告因為要符合這樣的規定要樓層還有它的面積還有消防安全的一些相關的規定所以現在各個政府機關不管中央地方大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加因為每一年的需求大概30%左右\n\n7\n00:02:12,521 --> 00:02:21,345\n另外我要跟委員報告一件事情我們也同樣的透過內政部我打斷你一下你剛說現在目前的需求只有30%\n\n8\n00:02:23,752 --> 00:02:48,331\n各位同仁他覺得有拖音的需求公開機關有拖音的需求他會被他30%左右顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量所以我們上次也有提一個方案內政部也接受就是在未來興建的政府的相關的這些設施裡面都要一流拖音拖曳的這些相關的環境\n\n9\n00:02:51,233 --> 00:03:08,246\n目前執行的成效就在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門各個縣市的相關的你們所統計的數據在會後提供一份給我好沒問題我們來瞭解一下到底說我們的效益是如何\n\n10\n00:03:10,487 --> 00:03:36,601\n其實我要講的就是說我們政府除了要鼓勵因為少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外對於我們這些就養生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源所以我們不是說只讓這些我們孩子生了之後但是我們整個就養的環境生養的環境造成很多這個父母年輕父母的不便\n\n11\n00:03:37,489 --> 00:03:37,749\n委員長林思銘\n\n12\n00:03:53,826 --> 00:03:54,206\n施法人員工作環境問題施法人員工作環境問題\n\n13\n00:04:13,684 --> 00:04:33,669\n人壽保險移繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的這個裁定出爐之後造成我們的民事執行處大塞車案量大爆滿所以造成這些執行處的書記官執行員指達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的一個案量\n\n14\n00:04:35,249 --> 00:04:54,689\n到目前為止人事總處你有沒有去了解過我們尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處包含這個士林或者新北的這些民事執行處尤其是六都的對相關的案量他們目前大概消化的情況怎麼樣\n\n15\n00:04:56,072 --> 00:05:11,061\n我這裡也跟委員報告一下事實上總處針對法務部這個區塊我們非常的重視所以我們在今年這個月的9月3號我們有到台北地檢署實際去做一些訪視因為有些\n\n16\n00:05:15,179 --> 00:05:36,614\n數據資料還有現場的情況我們在總處裡面坦白講沒有辦法感受所以我們今年9月3號就總處有一組人還有外面的專家學者我們一起過去協助他們了解那委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求這是一種一個是長期性的人力需求這是要從兩個過面來看\n\n17\n00:05:39,116 --> 00:05:41,437\n法務部檢察署、司法院都有提出最高緣額應該修正的需求以院檢現在的緣額數量\n\n18\n00:05:56,846 --> 00:06:20,451\n他有辦法消化這些源源不絕案量的需求嗎?有沒有辦法?雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我以你現在來看可以嗎?我在事實上這個議題齁過去這兩年我們一直在跟法務部對話那我們在這兩年我們給他檢察官助理就是業用的有250位\n\n19\n00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:48,875\n本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙可是我相信透過打詐傷法之後他這個案件量一定會往下走那你如果禁用太多的約聘的這些正職的檢察官助理未來這些人要扮演的角色我覺得就必須要我們要從能力支援的使用上長期來看反而我個人在觀察\n\n20\n00:06:50,055 --> 00:07:07,463\n雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢視官還有書記官有一定比例那目前我們掌握到的法務部目前還有550個缺額還沒有補進來我覺得在增加總額之前應該是把你既有的額還沒有用完應該先去用\n\n21\n00:07:08,644 --> 00:07:23,948\n而且說真的要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭一些法制方面的這些工作那一般的書記官或檢察官助理他是沒有這樣的一個授權\n\n22\n00:07:26,049 --> 00:07:55,369\n市長,我想你強調的是有關於說檢察事務官或者是相關的助理或者檢察官助理他們員額的需求當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理就是說如果未來案量減少的話這些人是不是真的需求那麼多那你可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討但是我現在想了解就是說其實現在基層檢察官也普遍認為說這個他們很辛苦\n\n23\n00:07:56,189 --> 00:08:05,365\n就是我們檢察官的緣額或者司法官的緣額是否要考慮他們提出來的需求我們總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:08,526 --> 00:08:29,334\n我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明第一個假如我們源頭不減量的話檢察官再增加一倍他也會很超然後如果要增加的話坦白講應該去補充最累的檢察官檢視官而不是去增加檢察官助理因為檢察官助理\n\n25\n00:08:29,734 --> 00:08:47,991\n他這一些routine收集尤其以檢察官助理案件量剛成立的時候坦白講文件量是很少他不像法官助理一樣他是已經成案的他每一個人在處理雖然都名稱都有助理檢察官助理跟法官助理那是沒工的啦那其實齁\n\n26\n00:08:49,332 --> 00:09:16,127\n人力要用在刀口上總長你是用很多的資源去用在我們跟你講說檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力但是我們也了解到因為我現在一直重視的是說就是檢察官本身的問題還有司法官本身的問題我們看到還是有很多的檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞然後很多就不幸墜死這種還是層數不窮\n\n27\n00:09:18,968 --> 00:09:27,133\n委員你的想法跟我一樣要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官不是去補充檢察官助理因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞\n\n28\n00:09:43,524 --> 00:10:06,099\n反而是在檢察官跟司法官應該是要去補充上面的人你這些言語應該就是要補充結果你去補充底下的你就陷到風雲去了所以我想我們包含專業選委員我們都是學法律出身的對於說你去約過這些不管是檢察官處理或者是檢察事務官他的考訓\n\n29\n00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:22,444\n其實真的這些人對法律的純熟度或者專精度有達到我們的標準嗎這個是我想我們不管是考試院或者這個人事長這邊你們都要去考量的你補足這麼多的人真的能夠確實的讓辦案品質更好嗎\n\n30\n00:10:25,365 --> 00:10:25,706\n謝謝林委員謝謝蘇貞昌\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4673\t8197\t好謝謝趙偉我們請人事長好請蘇任市長那首先跟任市長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關的議題像那個我先看先的業務報告當然這個\n28497\t48973\t總長在業務報告有提到相關的一個說明但是我還是想了解一下就是說對於我們這個陳院長他在上一個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責的機關要這個人事總處要跟其他相關的部會一起來協議\n51314\t71119\t我們知道說新竹縣3個月在竹北就發生了一個孽嬰的事件托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時而且予以言語的羞辱所以國內其實孽嬰的事件未曾間斷過\n73672\t90715\t所以本席想在這邊想知道就是說我們為了因應少子化的現況在推動公部門的設置職場的托育設施那是否有這個公告相關的設置參考之意\n92842\t106195\t因為我們事實上過去這段時間跟衛福部交易部我們都有做這樣的一個宣導還有相關的資訊都有公開那到截至到目前為止我們總共脫陰脫幼的設置總共設了195處\n110279\t130479\t不過我這裡也要跟委員報告因為要符合這樣的規定要樓層還有它的面積還有消防安全的一些相關的規定所以現在各個政府機關不管中央地方大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加因為每一年的需求大概30%左右\n132521\t141345\t另外我要跟委員報告一件事情我們也同樣的透過內政部我打斷你一下你剛說現在目前的需求只有30%\n143752\t168331\t各位同仁他覺得有拖音的需求公開機關有拖音的需求他會被他30%左右顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量所以我們上次也有提一個方案內政部也接受就是在未來興建的政府的相關的這些設施裡面都要一流拖音拖曳的這些相關的環境\n171233\t188246\t目前執行的成效就在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門各個縣市的相關的你們所統計的數據在會後提供一份給我好沒問題我們來瞭解一下到底說我們的效益是如何\n190487\t216601\t其實我要講的就是說我們政府除了要鼓勵因為少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外對於我們這些就養生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源所以我們不是說只讓這些我們孩子生了之後但是我們整個就養的環境生養的環境造成很多這個父母年輕父母的不便\n217489\t217749\t委員長林思銘\n233826\t234206\t施法人員工作環境問題施法人員工作環境問題\n253684\t273669\t人壽保險移繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的這個裁定出爐之後造成我們的民事執行處大塞車案量大爆滿所以造成這些執行處的書記官執行員指達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的一個案量\n275249\t294689\t到目前為止人事總處你有沒有去了解過我們尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處包含這個士林或者新北的這些民事執行處尤其是六都的對相關的案量他們目前大概消化的情況怎麼樣\n296072\t311061\t我這裡也跟委員報告一下事實上總處針對法務部這個區塊我們非常的重視所以我們在今年這個月的9月3號我們有到台北地檢署實際去做一些訪視因為有些\n315179\t336614\t數據資料還有現場的情況我們在總處裡面坦白講沒有辦法感受所以我們今年9月3號就總處有一組人還有外面的專家學者我們一起過去協助他們了解那委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求這是一種一個是長期性的人力需求這是要從兩個過面來看\n339116\t341437\t法務部檢察署、司法院都有提出最高緣額應該修正的需求以院檢現在的緣額數量\n356846\t380451\t他有辦法消化這些源源不絕案量的需求嗎?有沒有辦法?雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我以你現在來看可以嗎?我在事實上這個議題齁過去這兩年我們一直在跟法務部對話那我們在這兩年我們給他檢察官助理就是業用的有250位\n382830\t408875\t本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙可是我相信透過打詐傷法之後他這個案件量一定會往下走那你如果禁用太多的約聘的這些正職的檢察官助理未來這些人要扮演的角色我覺得就必須要我們要從能力支援的使用上長期來看反而我個人在觀察\n410055\t427463\t雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢視官還有書記官有一定比例那目前我們掌握到的法務部目前還有550個缺額還沒有補進來我覺得在增加總額之前應該是把你既有的額還沒有用完應該先去用\n428644\t443948\t而且說真的要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭一些法制方面的這些工作那一般的書記官或檢察官助理他是沒有這樣的一個授權\n446049\t475369\t市長,我想你強調的是有關於說檢察事務官或者是相關的助理或者檢察官助理他們員額的需求當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理就是說如果未來案量減少的話這些人是不是真的需求那麼多那你可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討但是我現在想了解就是說其實現在基層檢察官也普遍認為說這個他們很辛苦\n476189\t485365\t就是我們檢察官的緣額或者司法官的緣額是否要考慮他們提出來的需求我們總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎?\n488526\t509334\t我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明第一個假如我們源頭不減量的話檢察官再增加一倍他也會很超然後如果要增加的話坦白講應該去補充最累的檢察官檢視官而不是去增加檢察官助理因為檢察官助理\n509734\t527991\t他這一些routine收集尤其以檢察官助理案件量剛成立的時候坦白講文件量是很少他不像法官助理一樣他是已經成案的他每一個人在處理雖然都名稱都有助理檢察官助理跟法官助理那是沒工的啦那其實齁\n529332\t556127\t人力要用在刀口上總長你是用很多的資源去用在我們跟你講說檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力但是我們也了解到因為我現在一直重視的是說就是檢察官本身的問題還有司法官本身的問題我們看到還是有很多的檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞然後很多就不幸墜死這種還是層數不窮\n558968\t567133\t委員你的想法跟我一樣要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官不是去補充檢察官助理因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞\n583524\t606099\t反而是在檢察官跟司法官應該是要去補充上面的人你這些言語應該就是要補充結果你去補充底下的你就陷到風雲去了所以我想我們包含專業選委員我們都是學法律出身的對於說你去約過這些不管是檢察官處理或者是檢察事務官他的考訓\n607100\t622444\t其實真的這些人對法律的純熟度或者專精度有達到我們的標準嗎這個是我想我們不管是考試院或者這個人事長這邊你們都要去考量的你補足這麼多的人真的能夠確實的讓辦案品質更好嗎\n625365\t625706\t謝謝林委員 謝謝蘇貞昌\n","txt":"好謝謝趙偉我們請人事長好請蘇任市長那首先跟任市長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關的議題像那個我先看先的業務報告當然這個\n總長在業務報告有提到相關的一個說明但是我還是想了解一下就是說對於我們這個陳院長他在上一個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責的機關要這個人事總處要跟其他相關的部會一起來協議\n我們知道說新竹縣3個月在竹北就發生了一個孽嬰的事件托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時而且予以言語的羞辱所以國內其實孽嬰的事件未曾間斷過\n所以本席想在這邊想知道就是說我們為了因應少子化的現況在推動公部門的設置職場的托育設施那是否有這個公告相關的設置參考之意\n因為我們事實上過去這段時間跟衛福部交易部我們都有做這樣的一個宣導還有相關的資訊都有公開那到截至到目前為止我們總共脫陰脫幼的設置總共設了195處\n不過我這裡也要跟委員報告因為要符合這樣的規定要樓層還有它的面積還有消防安全的一些相關的規定所以現在各個政府機關不管中央地方大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加因為每一年的需求大概30%左右\n另外我要跟委員報告一件事情我們也同樣的透過內政部我打斷你一下你剛說現在目前的需求只有30%\n各位同仁他覺得有拖音的需求公開機關有拖音的需求他會被他30%左右顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量所以我們上次也有提一個方案內政部也接受就是在未來興建的政府的相關的這些設施裡面都要一流拖音拖曳的這些相關的環境\n目前執行的成效就在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門各個縣市的相關的你們所統計的數據在會後提供一份給我好沒問題我們來瞭解一下到底說我們的效益是如何\n其實我要講的就是說我們政府除了要鼓勵因為少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外對於我們這些就養生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源所以我們不是說只讓這些我們孩子生了之後但是我們整個就養的環境生養的環境造成很多這個父母年輕父母的不便\n委員長林思銘\n施法人員工作環境問題施法人員工作環境問題\n人壽保險移繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的這個裁定出爐之後造成我們的民事執行處大塞車案量大爆滿所以造成這些執行處的書記官執行員指達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的一個案量\n到目前為止人事總處你有沒有去了解過我們尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處包含這個士林或者新北的這些民事執行處尤其是六都的對相關的案量他們目前大概消化的情況怎麼樣\n我這裡也跟委員報告一下事實上總處針對法務部這個區塊我們非常的重視所以我們在今年這個月的9月3號我們有到台北地檢署實際去做一些訪視因為有些\n數據資料還有現場的情況我們在總處裡面坦白講沒有辦法感受所以我們今年9月3號就總處有一組人還有外面的專家學者我們一起過去協助他們了解那委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求這是一種一個是長期性的人力需求這是要從兩個過面來看\n法務部檢察署、司法院都有提出最高緣額應該修正的需求以院檢現在的緣額數量\n他有辦法消化這些源源不絕案量的需求嗎?有沒有辦法?雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我以你現在來看可以嗎?我在事實上這個議題齁過去這兩年我們一直在跟法務部對話那我們在這兩年我們給他檢察官助理就是業用的有250位\n本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙可是我相信透過打詐傷法之後他這個案件量一定會往下走那你如果禁用太多的約聘的這些正職的檢察官助理未來這些人要扮演的角色我覺得就必須要我們要從能力支援的使用上長期來看反而我個人在觀察\n雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢視官還有書記官有一定比例那目前我們掌握到的法務部目前還有550個缺額還沒有補進來我覺得在增加總額之前應該是把你既有的額還沒有用完應該先去用\n而且說真的要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭一些法制方面的這些工作那一般的書記官或檢察官助理他是沒有這樣的一個授權\n市長,我想你強調的是有關於說檢察事務官或者是相關的助理或者檢察官助理他們員額的需求當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理就是說如果未來案量減少的話這些人是不是真的需求那麼多那你可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討但是我現在想了解就是說其實現在基層檢察官也普遍認為說這個他們很辛苦\n就是我們檢察官的緣額或者司法官的緣額是否要考慮他們提出來的需求我們總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎?\n我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明第一個假如我們源頭不減量的話檢察官再增加一倍他也會很超然後如果要增加的話坦白講應該去補充最累的檢察官檢視官而不是去增加檢察官助理因為檢察官助理\n他這一些routine收集尤其以檢察官助理案件量剛成立的時候坦白講文件量是很少他不像法官助理一樣他是已經成案的他每一個人在處理雖然都名稱都有助理檢察官助理跟法官助理那是沒工的啦那其實齁\n人力要用在刀口上總長你是用很多的資源去用在我們跟你講說檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力但是我們也了解到因為我現在一直重視的是說就是檢察官本身的問題還有司法官本身的問題我們看到還是有很多的檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞然後很多就不幸墜死這種還是層數不窮\n委員你的想法跟我一樣要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官不是去補充檢察官助理因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞\n反而是在檢察官跟司法官應該是要去補充上面的人你這些言語應該就是要補充結果你去補充底下的你就陷到風雲去了所以我想我們包含專業選委員我們都是學法律出身的對於說你去約過這些不管是檢察官處理或者是檢察事務官他的考訓\n其實真的這些人對法律的純熟度或者專精度有達到我們的標準嗎這個是我想我們不管是考試院或者這個人事長這邊你們都要去考量的你補足這麼多的人真的能夠確實的讓辦案品質更好嗎\n謝謝林委員 謝謝蘇貞昌\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.673 --> 00:08.197\n好謝謝趙偉我們請人事長好請蘇任市長那首先跟任市長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關的議題像那個我先看先的業務報告當然這個\n\n00:28.497 --> 00:48.973\n總長在業務報告有提到相關的一個說明但是我還是想了解一下就是說對於我們這個陳院長他在上一個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責的機關要這個人事總處要跟其他相關的部會一起來協議\n\n00:51.314 --> 01:11.119\n我們知道說新竹縣3個月在竹北就發生了一個孽嬰的事件托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時而且予以言語的羞辱所以國內其實孽嬰的事件未曾間斷過\n\n01:13.672 --> 01:30.715\n所以本席想在這邊想知道就是說我們為了因應少子化的現況在推動公部門的設置職場的托育設施那是否有這個公告相關的設置參考之意\n\n01:32.842 --> 01:46.195\n因為我們事實上過去這段時間跟衛福部交易部我們都有做這樣的一個宣導還有相關的資訊都有公開那到截至到目前為止我們總共脫陰脫幼的設置總共設了195處\n\n01:50.279 --> 02:10.479\n不過我這裡也要跟委員報告因為要符合這樣的規定要樓層還有它的面積還有消防安全的一些相關的規定所以現在各個政府機關不管中央地方大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加因為每一年的需求大概30%左右\n\n02:12.521 --> 02:21.345\n另外我要跟委員報告一件事情我們也同樣的透過內政部我打斷你一下你剛說現在目前的需求只有30%\n\n02:23.752 --> 02:48.331\n各位同仁他覺得有拖音的需求公開機關有拖音的需求他會被他30%左右顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量所以我們上次也有提一個方案內政部也接受就是在未來興建的政府的相關的這些設施裡面都要一流拖音拖曳的這些相關的環境\n\n02:51.233 --> 03:08.246\n目前執行的成效就在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門各個縣市的相關的你們所統計的數據在會後提供一份給我好沒問題我們來瞭解一下到底說我們的效益是如何\n\n03:10.487 --> 03:36.601\n其實我要講的就是說我們政府除了要鼓勵因為少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外對於我們這些就養生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源所以我們不是說只讓這些我們孩子生了之後但是我們整個就養的環境生養的環境造成很多這個父母年輕父母的不便\n\n03:37.489 --> 03:37.749\n委員長林思銘\n\n03:53.826 --> 03:54.206\n施法人員工作環境問題施法人員工作環境問題\n\n04:13.684 --> 04:33.669\n人壽保險移繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的這個裁定出爐之後造成我們的民事執行處大塞車案量大爆滿所以造成這些執行處的書記官執行員指達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的一個案量\n\n04:35.249 --> 04:54.689\n到目前為止人事總處你有沒有去了解過我們尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處包含這個士林或者新北的這些民事執行處尤其是六都的對相關的案量他們目前大概消化的情況怎麼樣\n\n04:56.072 --> 05:11.061\n我這裡也跟委員報告一下事實上總處針對法務部這個區塊我們非常的重視所以我們在今年這個月的9月3號我們有到台北地檢署實際去做一些訪視因為有些\n\n05:15.179 --> 05:36.614\n數據資料還有現場的情況我們在總處裡面坦白講沒有辦法感受所以我們今年9月3號就總處有一組人還有外面的專家學者我們一起過去協助他們了解那委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求這是一種一個是長期性的人力需求這是要從兩個過面來看\n\n05:39.116 --> 05:41.437\n法務部檢察署、司法院都有提出最高緣額應該修正的需求以院檢現在的緣額數量\n\n05:56.846 --> 06:20.451\n他有辦法消化這些源源不絕案量的需求嗎?有沒有辦法?雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我以你現在來看可以嗎?我在事實上這個議題齁過去這兩年我們一直在跟法務部對話那我們在這兩年我們給他檢察官助理就是業用的有250位\n\n06:22.830 --> 06:48.875\n本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙可是我相信透過打詐傷法之後他這個案件量一定會往下走那你如果禁用太多的約聘的這些正職的檢察官助理未來這些人要扮演的角色我覺得就必須要我們要從能力支援的使用上長期來看反而我個人在觀察\n\n06:50.055 --> 07:07.463\n雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢視官還有書記官有一定比例那目前我們掌握到的法務部目前還有550個缺額還沒有補進來我覺得在增加總額之前應該是把你既有的額還沒有用完應該先去用\n\n07:08.644 --> 07:23.948\n而且說真的要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭一些法制方面的這些工作那一般的書記官或檢察官助理他是沒有這樣的一個授權\n\n07:26.049 --> 07:55.369\n市長,我想你強調的是有關於說檢察事務官或者是相關的助理或者檢察官助理他們員額的需求當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理就是說如果未來案量減少的話這些人是不是真的需求那麼多那你可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討但是我現在想了解就是說其實現在基層檢察官也普遍認為說這個他們很辛苦\n\n07:56.189 --> 08:05.365\n就是我們檢察官的緣額或者司法官的緣額是否要考慮他們提出來的需求我們總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎?\n\n08:08.526 --> 08:29.334\n我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明第一個假如我們源頭不減量的話檢察官再增加一倍他也會很超然後如果要增加的話坦白講應該去補充最累的檢察官檢視官而不是去增加檢察官助理因為檢察官助理\n\n08:29.734 --> 08:47.991\n他這一些routine收集尤其以檢察官助理案件量剛成立的時候坦白講文件量是很少他不像法官助理一樣他是已經成案的他每一個人在處理雖然都名稱都有助理檢察官助理跟法官助理那是沒工的啦那其實齁\n\n08:49.332 --> 09:16.127\n人力要用在刀口上總長你是用很多的資源去用在我們跟你講說檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力但是我們也了解到因為我現在一直重視的是說就是檢察官本身的問題還有司法官本身的問題我們看到還是有很多的檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞然後很多就不幸墜死這種還是層數不窮\n\n09:18.968 --> 09:27.133\n委員你的想法跟我一樣要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官不是去補充檢察官助理因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞\n\n09:43.524 --> 10:06.099\n反而是在檢察官跟司法官應該是要去補充上面的人你這些言語應該就是要補充結果你去補充底下的你就陷到風雲去了所以我想我們包含專業選委員我們都是學法律出身的對於說你去約過這些不管是檢察官處理或者是檢察事務官他的考訓\n\n10:07.100 --> 10:22.444\n其實真的這些人對法律的純熟度或者專精度有達到我們的標準嗎這個是我想我們不管是考試院或者這個人事長這邊你們都要去考量的你補足這麼多的人真的能夠確實的讓辦案品質更好嗎\n\n10:25.365 --> 10:25.706\n謝謝林委員謝謝蘇貞昌\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.673,"end":8.197,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我們請人事長好請蘇任市長那首先跟任市長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關的議題像那個我先看先的業務報告當然這個"},{"start":28.497,"end":48.973,"text":"總長在業務報告有提到相關的一個說明但是我還是想了解一下就是說對於我們這個陳院長他在上一個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責的機關要這個人事總處要跟其他相關的部會一起來協議"},{"start":51.314,"end":71.119,"text":"我們知道說新竹縣3個月在竹北就發生了一個孽嬰的事件托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時而且予以言語的羞辱所以國內其實孽嬰的事件未曾間斷過"},{"start":73.672,"end":90.715,"text":"所以本席想在這邊想知道就是說我們為了因應少子化的現況在推動公部門的設置職場的托育設施那是否有這個公告相關的設置參考之意"},{"start":92.842,"end":106.195,"text":"因為我們事實上過去這段時間跟衛福部交易部我們都有做這樣的一個宣導還有相關的資訊都有公開那到截至到目前為止我們總共脫陰脫幼的設置總共設了195處"},{"start":110.279,"end":130.479,"text":"不過我這裡也要跟委員報告因為要符合這樣的規定要樓層還有它的面積還有消防安全的一些相關的規定所以現在各個政府機關不管中央地方大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加因為每一年的需求大概30%左右"},{"start":132.521,"end":141.345,"text":"另外我要跟委員報告一件事情我們也同樣的透過內政部我打斷你一下你剛說現在目前的需求只有30%"},{"start":143.752,"end":168.331,"text":"各位同仁他覺得有拖音的需求公開機關有拖音的需求他會被他30%左右顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量所以我們上次也有提一個方案內政部也接受就是在未來興建的政府的相關的這些設施裡面都要一流拖音拖曳的這些相關的環境"},{"start":171.233,"end":188.246,"text":"目前執行的成效就在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門各個縣市的相關的你們所統計的數據在會後提供一份給我好沒問題我們來瞭解一下到底說我們的效益是如何"},{"start":190.487,"end":216.601,"text":"其實我要講的就是說我們政府除了要鼓勵因為少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外對於我們這些就養生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源所以我們不是說只讓這些我們孩子生了之後但是我們整個就養的環境生養的環境造成很多這個父母年輕父母的不便"},{"start":217.489,"end":217.749,"text":"委員長林思銘"},{"start":233.826,"end":234.206,"text":"施法人員工作環境問題施法人員工作環境問題"},{"start":253.684,"end":273.669,"text":"人壽保險移繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的這個裁定出爐之後造成我們的民事執行處大塞車案量大爆滿所以造成這些執行處的書記官執行員指達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的一個案量"},{"start":275.249,"end":294.689,"text":"到目前為止人事總處你有沒有去了解過我們尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處包含這個士林或者新北的這些民事執行處尤其是六都的對相關的案量他們目前大概消化的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":296.072,"end":311.061,"text":"我這裡也跟委員報告一下事實上總處針對法務部這個區塊我們非常的重視所以我們在今年這個月的9月3號我們有到台北地檢署實際去做一些訪視因為有些"},{"start":315.179,"end":336.614,"text":"數據資料還有現場的情況我們在總處裡面坦白講沒有辦法感受所以我們今年9月3號就總處有一組人還有外面的專家學者我們一起過去協助他們了解那委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求這是一種一個是長期性的人力需求這是要從兩個過面來看"},{"start":339.116,"end":341.437,"text":"法務部檢察署、司法院都有提出最高緣額應該修正的需求以院檢現在的緣額數量"},{"start":356.846,"end":380.451,"text":"他有辦法消化這些源源不絕案量的需求嗎?有沒有辦法?雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我以你現在來看可以嗎?我在事實上這個議題齁過去這兩年我們一直在跟法務部對話那我們在這兩年我們給他檢察官助理就是業用的有250位"},{"start":382.83,"end":408.875,"text":"本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙可是我相信透過打詐傷法之後他這個案件量一定會往下走那你如果禁用太多的約聘的這些正職的檢察官助理未來這些人要扮演的角色我覺得就必須要我們要從能力支援的使用上長期來看反而我個人在觀察"},{"start":410.055,"end":427.463,"text":"雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢視官還有書記官有一定比例那目前我們掌握到的法務部目前還有550個缺額還沒有補進來我覺得在增加總額之前應該是把你既有的額還沒有用完應該先去用"},{"start":428.644,"end":443.948,"text":"而且說真的要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭一些法制方面的這些工作那一般的書記官或檢察官助理他是沒有這樣的一個授權"},{"start":446.049,"end":475.369,"text":"市長,我想你強調的是有關於說檢察事務官或者是相關的助理或者檢察官助理他們員額的需求當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理就是說如果未來案量減少的話這些人是不是真的需求那麼多那你可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討但是我現在想了解就是說其實現在基層檢察官也普遍認為說這個他們很辛苦"},{"start":476.189,"end":485.365,"text":"就是我們檢察官的緣額或者司法官的緣額是否要考慮他們提出來的需求我們總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎?"},{"start":488.526,"end":509.334,"text":"我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明第一個假如我們源頭不減量的話檢察官再增加一倍他也會很超然後如果要增加的話坦白講應該去補充最累的檢察官檢視官而不是去增加檢察官助理因為檢察官助理"},{"start":509.734,"end":527.991,"text":"他這一些routine收集尤其以檢察官助理案件量剛成立的時候坦白講文件量是很少他不像法官助理一樣他是已經成案的他每一個人在處理雖然都名稱都有助理檢察官助理跟法官助理那是沒工的啦那其實齁"},{"start":529.332,"end":556.127,"text":"人力要用在刀口上總長你是用很多的資源去用在我們跟你講說檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力但是我們也了解到因為我現在一直重視的是說就是檢察官本身的問題還有司法官本身的問題我們看到還是有很多的檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞然後很多就不幸墜死這種還是層數不窮"},{"start":558.968,"end":567.133,"text":"委員你的想法跟我一樣要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官不是去補充檢察官助理因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞"},{"start":583.524,"end":606.099,"text":"反而是在檢察官跟司法官應該是要去補充上面的人你這些言語應該就是要補充結果你去補充底下的你就陷到風雲去了所以我想我們包含專業選委員我們都是學法律出身的對於說你去約過這些不管是檢察官處理或者是檢察事務官他的考訓"},{"start":607.1,"end":622.444,"text":"其實真的這些人對法律的純熟度或者專精度有達到我們的標準嗎這個是我想我們不管是考試院或者這個人事長這邊你們都要去考量的你補足這麼多的人真的能夠確實的讓辦案品質更好嗎"},{"start":625.365,"end":625.706,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝蘇貞昌"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:29:53 - 09:40:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":154938,"gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（9時30分）謝謝召委，我們請人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["林委員思銘：人事長早安。首先跟人事長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關議題，我看了今天的業務報告，當然人事長在業務報告有提到相關的說明，但是我還是想了解一下，就是陳院長他在上上個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責機關，人事總處要跟其他相關部會一起來研議。我們知道新竹縣上個月在竹北就發生了一個虐嬰事件，托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時，而且予以言語的羞辱，其實國內虐嬰的事件未曾間斷過，所以本席在這邊想知道，我們為了因應少子化的現況，在推動公部門設置職場的托育設施，是否有公告相關的設置參考指引？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有、有、有。事實上過去這段時間，我們跟衛福部、教育部都有做這樣的一個宣導，還有相關的資訊都有公開，截至目前為止，我們托嬰、托幼的設施總共設了195處，不過，我這裡也要跟委員報告，因為要符合這樣的規定，有樓層、面積，還有消防安全的一些相關的規定，所以現在各個政府機關，不管中央、地方，大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加，因為每一年的需求大約30%左右，另外我要跟委員報告一件事情，我們也同樣的透過內政部……"],["林委員思銘：人事長，我打斷你一下，你剛才說目前的需求只有30%？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公務同仁覺得有托嬰的需求、公家機關有托嬰的需求，差不多30%左右，顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量，所以我們上次也有提一個方案，內政部也接受，就是在未來興建的政府相關設施裡面，都要預留托嬰、托育這些相關的環境。"],["林委員思銘：人事長，這樣好了，我跟你說，你把目前執行的成效，就是在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門、各個縣市你們所統計的相關數據，會後提供一份給我。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，沒問題。"],["林委員思銘：我來了解一下到底我們的效益是如何。其實我要講的就是說，我們政府除了因應少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外，對於就養、生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源，所以我們不是說只讓孩子生了之後，但是我們整個就養的環境、生養的環境造成很多父母、年輕父母的不便，所以就會影響他生孩子的意願，因此對於就養跟生養環境的重視、相關資源的支援，我希望人事總處也要一併全盤把它考量進去。","另外，我們一直談到司法人員工作環境的問題，在上個會期我們也講得非常多，我們召委上次對於最高法院民事大法庭在2022年12月9日的裁定，造成人壽保險已繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的，這個裁定出爐之後，造成我們的民事執行處大塞車、案量大爆滿，所以造成執行處的書記官、執行員、執達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的案量。到目前為止，人事總處有沒有去了解過，尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處，包含士林或者新北的這些民事執行處，尤其是六都的，對於相關的案量，他們目前消化的情況大概是怎麼樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡也跟委員報告一下，事實上，總處針對法務部這個區塊，我們非常的重視，所以今年9月3號我們有到臺北地檢署實際去做一些訪視，因為有些數據資料還有現場的情況，坦白講，我們在總處裡面沒有辦法感受，所以今年9月3號總處有一組人，還有外面的專家學者，我們一起過去協助他們了解，委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求，這是一種，一個是長期性的人力需求，這是要從兩個構面來看，等一下我會提供一些數據給委員。"],["林委員思銘：好，這樣啦，人事長，我要強調的就是說，法務部檢察署、司法院他們都有提出最高員額應該修正的需求，以院檢現在的員額數量，他們有辦法消化這些源源不絕的案量需求嗎？有沒有辦法？雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我，以你現在來看，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上過去這兩年，這個議題我們一直在跟法務部對話，我們在這兩年給他約用的檢察官助理有250位，他本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙，可是我相信透過打詐三法之後，這個案件量一定會往下走，你如果進用太多約聘的檢察官助理，未來這些人要扮演的角色，我覺得我們必須從人力資源的使用上長期來看。反而我個人在觀察，雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢事官還有書記官，有一定比例，目前我們所掌握到的，法務部目前有550個缺額還沒有補進來，我覺得在增加總員額之前，應該是先去用你既有的員額還沒有用完的部分，應該先去用，而且說真的，要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官，因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭、一些法制方面的這些工作，一般的書記官或檢察官助理是沒有這樣的授權。"],["林委員思銘：是，人事長，我想你強調的是有關於檢察事務官或者是相關的助理、檢察官助理他們員額的需求，當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理，就是說如果未來案量減少的話，這些人是不是真的需求那麼多，可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討，但是我現在想了解的就是說，其實現在基層的檢察官也普遍認為他們很辛苦，就是我們檢察官的員額或者司法官的員額，是否要考慮他們提出來的需求，總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明，第一個，假如我們源頭不減量的話，檢察官再增加一倍，他也會很操，如果要增加的話，坦白講，應該去補充最累的檢察官、檢事官，而不是去增加檢察官助理，因為檢察官助理他做這些routine蒐集，尤其以檢察官助理來看，案件量剛成立的時候，坦白講，文件量是很少，他不像法官助理一樣，他是已經成案的，雖然名稱都有助理，但檢察官助理跟法官助理在處理的工作上是不同的啦！其實人力要用在刀口上。"],["林委員思銘：人事長，你是用了很多的資源在檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力，但是我們也了解到，因為我現在一直重視的就是檢察官本身的問題，還有司法官本身的問題，我們看到還是有很多檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞，還有很多就不幸猝死，這種情況還是層出不窮，所以你認為檢察官跟法官的數量是足夠的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我認為……"],["林委員思銘：需要我們一直去補充他的助理或者事務官給他？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員，你的想法跟我一樣，要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官，不是去補充檢察官助理，因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞，反而是在檢察官跟司法官，應該是要去補充上面的人嘛，這些員額應該就是要補充，結果你去補充底下的，你就用錯方向了嘛。"],["林委員思銘：我想包含莊瑞雄委員，我們都是學法律出身的，對於約僱的檢察官助理或者檢察事務官的考訓，其實這些人對於法律的純熟度或者專精度真的有達到我們的標準嗎？不管是考試院或者人事長，這都是你們要去考量的，你們補足這麼多人，真的能夠確實地讓辦案品質更好嗎？這都要考慮。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：所以我一直拜託法務部應該要去增加檢察官的數量，不是去增加檢察官助理的量嘛。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就溝通過……"],["林委員思銘：這點我給你肯定。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來有請莊委員瑞雄質詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：（9分40分）謝謝召委，有請人事長。"],["主席：有請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長早。我看今天早上林思銘委員在幫你開藥方，這個藥方下了之後到底有沒有效就不知道了，但是底下我有幾個問題要來做一個請教。上個會期本席也針對體育署升格為體育部的議題跟你做過請教，今天再來就教。奧運以後，我們看到行政院多次召開升格諮詢的會議，也請了許多學者專家及選手做討論。從目前的進度來看，可以預期體育署的升格應該是單獨成立一個新的部會，差不多是這樣，並不是跟現有的部會做合併，也可能不會取代可能降編的部會。但是我們看到中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條的規定，部之總數有14個而已，這邊已經訂定各個部會的總數，雖然在99年之前有幾次依據行政院組織法的部會數量變動來配合更動數量，但是99年以後就保持14個部會，以此作為基礎，行政院組織法第三條裡面講得很清楚。所以首先要請教人事長的就是，上一次組改行政院決定成立數位部，但同時也將科技部改制為國科會，接下來因應整個體育署的升格，會有部會因此受到影響而調整，譬如改制或者併裁，還是直接提案修法，提高到15個部？請教你。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，目前的規劃是要修中央行政機關組織基準法、行政院組織法，還有教育部組織法、新成立的法人，我們總共要修4個法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：修4個法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，我們沒有裁掉。不過我這裡也要跟委員報告一下，這一次成立……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以現在多1個部了，你的意思是變成15個部？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：15個部，多1個。"],["莊委員瑞雄：OK。你也必須要想到整個員額編制的問題，參照上次組織的改造，農業部升格之後多了131個，環境部多了103個，至於體育事務，我相信同樣是廣泛，對人力的需求勢必比過去體育署的時期更多。本席想瞭解人事長對於體育部升格後人力的需求部分有什麼見解？不是光為升格而升格。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實不能用升格的概念，而是他們希望是一個全新的部，不是用升格的概念。升格就是原來體育署幾個組的名稱改成司，但是目前教育部體育相關單位他們規劃的方向是要成立一個全新的部會，有新的生命，像一些運動產業這些相關的，他們有一個新的組織……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不要胡亂解釋，那就是叫作升格，你還說不是，那麼好的事情，你現在當作不是新升格的概念。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個是層次的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以大家都很期待，你還跟我說那個不是叫作升格。而且從署變部，你還說那個不是升格，不然那個叫作什麼？是升「起毛」喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個叫作全新的，因為這件事情對臺灣未來的發展很重要，所以先深入這個……然後它主要的觀念應該是重新設計的觀念，而不是直接從小養大。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然是要養大，不然光是改個名，從署變作部，員額不用去增加嗎？一定要增加的啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：員額一定會增加……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：最重要它的function也要增加。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！可是你會碰到一個問題，就是我們機關總額數的上限，依據總員額法的規定是16萬900人，你可以看到現在不只是民間缺工，看來行政部門也全部都是缺工，就是我們自己被法律給綁住了，譬如總員額法限制了機關總數的數量，有地方要人，有的地方就會少人。我現在擔任職籃的會長，我很清楚，你知不知道？我們大家都樂見政府投入更多的人力及資源去幫助運動產業的發展，可是我擔心被整個法令、各部會排擠，現在人力都已經吃緊了，如果不去未雨綢繆，你剛才還跟我說那個不叫作升格，我快被你嚇死。","我舉個例子給你聽，譬如現在不只臺東，各縣市都會碰到這個問題。我現在每個禮拜都要去臺東兩趟，我收到最多的民怨是什麼？我也曾經跟你反映過，就是國產署的部分，農地換約時會碰到老百姓本身的農業保險或者必須有農保的問題。臺東有85%全部都是公有地，老百姓必須向公家租地，租地換約時，監察院說你們一定要去現場會勘，這個規定是合理的，可是你們人手就不夠，導致案件嚴重塞車，塞了這麼多年了，你們不去做一個解決，怎麼對？國產署也唱哭調給你們聽，公務人員特考、甚至高考都舉辦了，舉辦了以後怎麼樣？舉辦了以後要分發，譬如人事長分發到臺東，你想了想，自己又不是傻瓜，怎麼會去臺東？去了以後還要綁3年，離開之後同一個科室再換一下，變成要綁6年才可以離開臺東到其他的地方，有時候想一想就覺得「毋通」，尤其年輕人考慮到娶妻嫁人，說不定另一半不在臺東任職，他們就不願意去，結果又重新再考一次，所以就碰到這樣的問題。所以你們就是人力不足，人力不足就要想辦法。","臺東的國有耕地、畜牧用地、造林地及養殖地戶數有1萬655戶，總面積占全臺第一。人事長，請你幫忙想辦法，不是光發一個文。國產署當然有負責任地說碰到農業保險、農保的優先，但是就算優先，還是沒有人力可以處理，我們要有解決方法，政府就是要幫老百姓解決問題。","像臺東這樣的地區，公有地占了將近90%，遇到這個問題該怎麼辦？以現在一般國有承租農地來看的話，以6年左右為主流，農民租用國有地後開始耕作，在這個過程裡面，可能會碰到災損或是農作物保險的問題，對不對？政府要求必須要有國有地承租的事實及農作物生產等等，站在農業部的立場，很合理，但問題就是站在農民的立場呢？是政府沒有人力幫他們處理，所以你們部跟部的政策在打架，我認為這個問題沒有趕快去解決是不行的。","你看國產署南區分署臺東辦事處有幾個人，你知道嗎？查勘業務8個人，審核業務8個人，總共16個人。人事長，你想想看，大巨蛋10公頃，臺東承租地的面積差不多1,000個大巨蛋，你只放了16個人在那裡，人力哪夠？人事長，真的不夠，所以我們當政府就有責任。你坐過火車嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我常常坐。"],["莊委員瑞雄：從臺北坐到臺東要多久，你知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：四個多鐘頭。"],["莊委員瑞雄：四個多鐘頭。以當天往返來講，你說從臺北去支援的，或者從嘉義、臺南去支援的，他們坐火車去，我們說的四個多鐘頭是坐最頂級的自強號、普悠瑪，就要花4小時40分鐘，扣、扣、扣、扣到那裡以後，能夠會勘幾件？去到那麼遠的地方，沒多久就又要坐火車回來，一天坐兩趟，早上去再坐回來，天都晚了，就算再厲害，了不起一天會勘2件，你叫老百姓怎麼辦？你叫臺東這麼多公有地的承租戶怎麼辦？全國各縣市幾乎都會碰到這樣的問題，人力不足嘛！現勘是法律規定的、政府規定的，規定得合不合理？我也認為合理，可是問題是要這樣規定，你要有人手幫老百姓解決問題，不然我們設政府做什麼？你看臺東、花蓮大家都唉唉叫！唉唉叫！他們就是因為比較遠，比較遠的聲音這裡就比較聽不到。屏東和臺東差不多，地緣關係差不多，地理環境差不多，它有綠島、蘭嶼，我那邊有小琉球，它那邊要發展觀光，我這邊有墾丁國家公園、小琉球、大鵬灣，每一樣我這邊都有，原住民地區也有7個，所以地理環境差不多，遇到的衝擊也差不多，但是我一去看就覺得你們這樣很不合理，因為政府沒有人力，政府沒有人力要叫老百姓去死，這是不對的！有沒有辦法？有沒有方法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我跟委員報告……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你有辦法怎麼現在才講，早就應該講了！要去解決了！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們要去協調，因為我們的辦法他們不用。"],["莊委員瑞雄：誰不要用？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：國產署我們也溝通過，我們去年11月就有去臺東看過，所以我們有增加31人，增加的31人裡面，用於臺東辦事處的是4人，所以現在約聘僱人員剛好25人，約用人員24人，總共有49人，其中辦理委員剛才說的業務人員差不多有16人，三分之一。"],["莊委員瑞雄：雖然有三分之一，問題是出去會勘1組8人而已。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，我上禮拜有再拜託財政部莊部長，我會請他過來，然後我們會找國產署大家一起坐下來討論一下，會請委員你來主持，這樣比較快，或許我們的想法不是很完整，可是起碼我們會拋一些新的想法，譬如找代書公會一起來解決，因為人再怎麼增加，我不可能為了增加1人去提缺，等到人進來差不多要1、2年，這樣會來不及。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這種行政效率實在是太慢、太慢、太慢了，怎麼說？我簡單講，就是這邊在大塞車的時候，颱風又要來了，對不對？他說他有種植，而且他也受到損害了，我們會問他種植在哪裡，那個地是誰的，你馬上卡到有沒有租約的問題，所以這對民眾來講不公平。我剛才說的是只有坐火車，如果要省時間搭飛機去，2個人的機票是9,432元，也不用支援到一個禮拜，只要住5天就好，而且是住最便宜的，2個人5天需要8,685元，這是搭飛機的狀況。現在去支援的人事成本還是那麼高，卻又辦不了事情，要怎麼辦？趕快解決掉問題，臺東的問題要趕快幫人家解決掉，這個沒有道理，我去臺東一看，被賴總統派去臺東認養以後，我看到了這些問題，不是只有觀光的問題，還有各部會都存在很多問題，那裡也算農業縣，不只觀光而已，農業也是大宗，老百姓都很努力，他們七早八早太陽出來就去耕作，耕作之後遇到這種問題，政府應該要幫他們解決，結果你卻說你沒有人力，我認為一個禮拜內人事長要幫他們解決，一個禮拜可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我沒有那麼厲害。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能說你沒那麼厲害，這個是長期的問題，不然……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是長期的問題，你要我一個禮拜解決，我也不是神仙。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以長期大家都坐在那邊等死，這樣怎麼對！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，我非常積極來處理這件事情，這樣可以嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：鍾佳濱召委現在站起來了，鍾佳濱，你認為我這樣講沒有道理嗎？那些問題我們都沒有幫他們解決，地方不是我們執政沒錯，但問題是我們中央缺人力去幫忙，這樣不通，我要求一個禮拜。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一個禮拜我約財政部大家一起來談。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你要幫他們解決問題，你已經說長年沒辦法解決，我們就把它解決，不是這樣嗎？不然你選舉選輸人家只是剛好而已，民進黨在那邊要向人家抱怨什麼！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好啦，我來努力啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我來努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們一個禮拜把它解決掉。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：但是我要拚，財政部那邊也要配合。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個是機關政府內部整合的問題，不能把這個不利益推給老百姓，這樣不通！我們自己解決掉，好不好？"],["主席：莊委員，我們2個一起來跟他們討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以嗎？鍾佳濱也要幫忙了，我們是雙東。"],["主席：姐妹花。"],["莊委員瑞雄：姐妹花是沒有啦，那都是很辛苦的，農業縣很辛苦，如果因為政府的不作為，因為政府的人力不足，讓老百姓在那個地方跟你們哀幾年了，你們還沒辦法解決，這樣我看不下去，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們來打拚。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝，不能只有打拚，而是要把它完成，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝蘇人事長。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：接下來請下一位質詢委員鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","謝龍介","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137801_00011"}}}