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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 738.594, \"end\": 738.714, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 738.714, \"end\": 739.134, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 739.134, \"end\": 739.615, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 739.615, \"end\": 739.635, \"score\": 0.506}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,509 --> 00:00:25,484\n請賴瑞隆委員質詢好謝謝召委請立主委請立主委好主委主委長主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件\n\n2\n00:00:28,498 --> 00:00:37,763\n公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做\n\n3\n00:00:40,025 --> 00:01:06,267\n打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為?更積極的作為來做嗎?譬如說我們負責如何去試炸、阻炸這一部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作?有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力?我們有盡努力在\n\n4\n00:01:07,228 --> 00:01:16,759\n我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不實廣告包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51\n\n5\n00:01:26,209 --> 00:01:45,122\n大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件從57到72到87到目前今年1到8月49相較於我們來看一下1到3月份刑事警察局的通報的3萬4千零55件的詐騙案\n\n6\n00:01:49,285 --> 00:02:13,803\n裏面如果這是3個月而已但如果你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話大概不到0.1%我的意思是說有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點查實不實廣告\n\n7\n00:02:14,924 --> 00:02:42,123\n對我來說除了查實不實廣告外詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他連空的連什麼都沒有就可以去給你做不實給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面有給予公平會足夠的空間去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂你打了他之後他要不要來宿院他要不要來那個那是另外一件事情但是你連打都不打的時候這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委委員會同這樣的看法\n\n8\n00:02:42,874 --> 00:03:07,143\n我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過\n\n9\n00:03:07,563 --> 00:03:25,229\n現在有很多的網路的現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅常常都得到他們不斷的澄清我沒有我沒有推薦大家投資但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放在這件事情上面公平會員有沒有角色可以做處理\n\n10\n00:03:25,649 --> 00:03:39,219\n我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然\n\n11\n00:03:44,663 --> 00:04:08,479\n如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只是講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發布詐騙歸這個警政署\n\n12\n00:04:12,822 --> 00:04:33,581\n麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個\n\n13\n00:04:36,403 --> 00:04:58,589\n五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有延達臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過\n\n14\n00:05:00,009 --> 00:05:08,951\n只要就商品的相關及足以影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PChome包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的\n\n15\n00:05:27,435 --> 00:05:45,180\n但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有訴願的空間完全沒有訴願空間因為這是假的嘛就是騙的嘛\n\n16\n00:05:46,440 --> 00:06:01,216\n當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯\n\n17\n00:06:02,097 --> 00:06:16,803\n全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大\n\n18\n00:06:17,540 --> 00:06:42,166\n那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎\n\n19\n00:06:43,166 --> 00:07:05,660\n主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮\n\n20\n00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:34,086\n所以反倒是你有賣東西這個東西的品質功能不太好這個會被開罰賣騙你的不會開罰沒事同樣是不實一個是全部空的完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的騙的假的完全的這種不實你是不開罰的我認為這個是國王評會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛你開罰了如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛\n\n21\n00:07:35,827 --> 00:07:47,826\n來疏遠給行政院來疏遠嘛給更來疏遠嘛包括行政法院都可以來疏遠你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不用做的時候這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛我講了嘛光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件\n\n22\n00:07:50,916 --> 00:08:07,226\n明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平委員明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了\n\n23\n00:08:08,894 --> 00:08:34,406\n在於公平交易法21條不實廣告．對廣告主．對廣告代理業者．對廣告媒體業者．對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能沒有你們自我限縮自我保守你們只要開罰．不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的\n\n24\n00:08:35,907 --> 00:08:44,437\n臉書會不知道嗎臉書用ASA搜尋一下往下看啦齁沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對\n\n25\n00:08:46,204 --> 00:09:13,059\n這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那\n\n26\n00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:38,881\n政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓\n\n27\n00:09:39,642 --> 00:09:40,763\n臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做\n\n28\n00:10:01,343 --> 00:10:27,971\n主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦\n\n29\n00:10:29,812 --> 00:10:39,388\n沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這些事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於\n\n30\n00:10:40,866 --> 00:11:05,709\n詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力去約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法嘛但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦\n\n31\n00:11:06,229 --> 00:11:24,453\n不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰了一件兩件三件這些詐騙的就知道\n\n32\n00:11:24,853 --> 00:11:38,248\n公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰\n\n33\n00:11:43,894 --> 00:12:04,325\n你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為\n\n34\n00:12:09,464 --> 00:12:19,635\n臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好整個這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份給我一個報告好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n509\t25484\t請賴瑞隆委員質詢好謝謝召委請立主委請立主委好主委主委長主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件\n28498\t37763\t公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做\n40025\t66267\t打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為?更積極的作為來做嗎?譬如說我們負責如何去試炸、阻炸這一部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作?有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力?我們有盡努力在\n67228\t76759\t我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不實廣告包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51\n86209\t105122\t大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件從57到72到87到目前今年1到8月49相較於我們來看一下1到3月份刑事警察局的通報的3萬4千零55件的詐騙案\n109285\t133803\t裏面如果這是3個月而已但如果你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話大概不到0.1%我的意思是說有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點查實不實廣告\n134924\t162123\t對我來說 除了查實不實廣告外 詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他 連空的 連什麼都沒有 就可以去給你做不實 給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面 有給予公平會足夠的空間 去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂 你打了他之後 他要不要來宿院 他要不要來那個 那是另外一件事情但是你連打都不打的時候 這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委委員會同這樣的看法\n162874\t187143\t我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過\n187563\t205229\t現在有很多的網路的現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅常常都得到他們不斷的澄清我沒有我沒有推薦大家投資但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放在這件事情上面公平會員有沒有角色可以做處理\n205649\t219219\t我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然\n224663\t248479\t如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了 刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只是講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發布詐騙歸這個警政署\n252822\t273581\t麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個\n276403\t298589\t五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有延達臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過\n300009\t308951\t只要就商品的相關及足以影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PC home包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的\n327435\t345180\t但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有訴願的空間完全沒有訴願空間因為這是假的嘛就是騙的嘛\n346440\t361216\t當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯\n362097\t376803\t全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大\n377540\t402166\t那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎\n403166\t425660\t主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮\n428040\t454086\t所以反倒是你有賣東西 這個東西的品質功能不太好 這個會被開罰賣騙你的 不會開罰 沒事同樣是不實 一個是全部空的 完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實 你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的 騙的 假的 完全的這種不實 你是不開罰的我認為這個是國王評會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛 你開罰了 如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛\n455827\t467826\t來疏遠 給行政院來疏遠嘛 給更來疏遠嘛 包括行政法院都可以來疏遠 你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不用做的時候 這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛 我講了嘛 光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件\n470916\t487226\t明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平委員明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了\n488894\t514406\t在於公平交易法21條不實廣告．對廣告主．對廣告代理業者．對廣告媒體業者．對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能 沒有你們自我限縮 自我保守你們只要開罰．不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的\n515907\t524437\t臉書會不知道嗎臉書用ASA搜尋一下往下看啦齁沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對\n526204\t553059\t這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那\n554720\t578881\t政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓\n579642\t580763\t臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做\n601343\t627971\t主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦\n629812\t639388\t沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這些事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於\n640866\t665709\t詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力去約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法嘛但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦\n666229\t684453\t不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰了一件兩件三件這些詐騙的就知道\n684853\t698248\t公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰\n703894\t724325\t你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為\n729464\t739635\t臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好整個這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份給我一個報告好謝謝\n","txt":"請賴瑞隆委員質詢好謝謝召委請立主委請立主委好主委主委長主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件\n公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做\n打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為?更積極的作為來做嗎?譬如說我們負責如何去試炸、阻炸這一部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作?有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力?我們有盡努力在\n我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不實廣告包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51\n大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件從57到72到87到目前今年1到8月49相較於我們來看一下1到3月份刑事警察局的通報的3萬4千零55件的詐騙案\n裏面如果這是3個月而已但如果你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話大概不到0.1%我的意思是說有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點查實不實廣告\n對我來說 除了查實不實廣告外 詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他 連空的 連什麼都沒有 就可以去給你做不實 給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面 有給予公平會足夠的空間 去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂 你打了他之後 他要不要來宿院 他要不要來那個 那是另外一件事情但是你連打都不打的時候 這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委委員會同這樣的看法\n我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過\n現在有很多的網路的現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅常常都得到他們不斷的澄清我沒有我沒有推薦大家投資但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放在這件事情上面公平會員有沒有角色可以做處理\n我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然\n如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了 刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只是講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發布詐騙歸這個警政署\n麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個\n五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有延達臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過\n只要就商品的相關及足以影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PC home包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的\n但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有訴願的空間完全沒有訴願空間因為這是假的嘛就是騙的嘛\n當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯\n全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大\n那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎\n主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮\n所以反倒是你有賣東西 這個東西的品質功能不太好 這個會被開罰賣騙你的 不會開罰 沒事同樣是不實 一個是全部空的 完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實 你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的 騙的 假的 完全的這種不實 你是不開罰的我認為這個是國王評會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛 你開罰了 如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛\n來疏遠 給行政院來疏遠嘛 給更來疏遠嘛 包括行政法院都可以來疏遠 你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不用做的時候 這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛 我講了嘛 光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件\n明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平委員明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了\n在於公平交易法21條不實廣告．對廣告主．對廣告代理業者．對廣告媒體業者．對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能 沒有你們自我限縮 自我保守你們只要開罰．不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的\n臉書會不知道嗎臉書用ASA搜尋一下往下看啦齁沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對\n這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那\n政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓\n臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做\n主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦\n沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這些事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於\n詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力去約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法嘛但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦\n不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰了一件兩件三件這些詐騙的就知道\n公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰\n你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為\n臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好整個這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份給我一個報告好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.509 --> 00:25.484\n請賴瑞隆委員質詢好謝謝召委請立主委請立主委好主委主委長主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件\n\n00:28.498 --> 00:37.763\n公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做\n\n00:40.025 --> 01:06.267\n打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為?更積極的作為來做嗎?譬如說我們負責如何去試炸、阻炸這一部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作?有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力?我們有盡努力在\n\n01:07.228 --> 01:16.759\n我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不實廣告包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51\n\n01:26.209 --> 01:45.122\n大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件從57到72到87到目前今年1到8月49相較於我們來看一下1到3月份刑事警察局的通報的3萬4千零55件的詐騙案\n\n01:49.285 --> 02:13.803\n裏面如果這是3個月而已但如果你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話大概不到0.1%我的意思是說有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點查實不實廣告\n\n02:14.924 --> 02:42.123\n對我來說除了查實不實廣告外詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他連空的連什麼都沒有就可以去給你做不實給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面有給予公平會足夠的空間去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂你打了他之後他要不要來宿院他要不要來那個那是另外一件事情但是你連打都不打的時候這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委委員會同這樣的看法\n\n02:42.874 --> 03:07.143\n我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過\n\n03:07.563 --> 03:25.229\n現在有很多的網路的現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅常常都得到他們不斷的澄清我沒有我沒有推薦大家投資但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放在這件事情上面公平會員有沒有角色可以做處理\n\n03:25.649 --> 03:39.219\n我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然\n\n03:44.663 --> 04:08.479\n如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只是講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發布詐騙歸這個警政署\n\n04:12.822 --> 04:33.581\n麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個\n\n04:36.403 --> 04:58.589\n五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有延達臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過\n\n05:00.009 --> 05:08.951\n只要就商品的相關及足以影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PChome包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的\n\n05:27.435 --> 05:45.180\n但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有訴願的空間完全沒有訴願空間因為這是假的嘛就是騙的嘛\n\n05:46.440 --> 06:01.216\n當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯\n\n06:02.097 --> 06:16.803\n全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大\n\n06:17.540 --> 06:42.166\n那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎\n\n06:43.166 --> 07:05.660\n主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮\n\n07:08.040 --> 07:34.086\n所以反倒是你有賣東西這個東西的品質功能不太好這個會被開罰賣騙你的不會開罰沒事同樣是不實一個是全部空的完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的騙的假的完全的這種不實你是不開罰的我認為這個是國王評會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛你開罰了如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛\n\n07:35.827 --> 07:47.826\n來疏遠給行政院來疏遠嘛給更來疏遠嘛包括行政法院都可以來疏遠你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不用做的時候這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛我講了嘛光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件\n\n07:50.916 --> 08:07.226\n明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平委員明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了\n\n08:08.894 --> 08:34.406\n在於公平交易法21條不實廣告．對廣告主．對廣告代理業者．對廣告媒體業者．對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能沒有你們自我限縮自我保守你們只要開罰．不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的\n\n08:35.907 --> 08:44.437\n臉書會不知道嗎臉書用ASA搜尋一下往下看啦齁沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對\n\n08:46.204 --> 09:13.059\n這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那\n\n09:14.720 --> 09:38.881\n政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓\n\n09:39.642 --> 09:40.763\n臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做\n\n10:01.343 --> 10:27.971\n主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦\n\n10:29.812 --> 10:39.388\n沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這些事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於\n\n10:40.866 --> 11:05.709\n詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力去約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法嘛但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦\n\n11:06.229 --> 11:24.453\n不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰了一件兩件三件這些詐騙的就知道\n\n11:24.853 --> 11:38.248\n公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰\n\n11:43.894 --> 12:04.325\n你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為\n\n12:09.464 --> 12:19.635\n臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好整個這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份給我一個報告好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.509,"end":25.484,"text":"請賴瑞隆委員質詢好謝謝召委請立主委請立主委好主委主委長主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件"},{"start":28.498,"end":37.763,"text":"公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做"},{"start":40.025,"end":66.267,"text":"打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為?更積極的作為來做嗎?譬如說我們負責如何去試炸、阻炸這一部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作?有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力?我們有盡努力在"},{"start":67.228,"end":76.759,"text":"我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不實廣告包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51"},{"start":86.209,"end":105.122,"text":"大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件從57到72到87到目前今年1到8月49相較於我們來看一下1到3月份刑事警察局的通報的3萬4千零55件的詐騙案"},{"start":109.285,"end":133.803,"text":"裏面如果這是3個月而已但如果你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話大概不到0.1%我的意思是說有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點查實不實廣告"},{"start":134.924,"end":162.123,"text":"對我來說 除了查實不實廣告外 詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他 連空的 連什麼都沒有 就可以去給你做不實 給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面 有給予公平會足夠的空間 去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂 你打了他之後 他要不要來宿院 他要不要來那個 那是另外一件事情但是你連打都不打的時候 這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委委員會同這樣的看法"},{"start":162.874,"end":187.143,"text":"我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過"},{"start":187.563,"end":205.229,"text":"現在有很多的網路的現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅常常都得到他們不斷的澄清我沒有我沒有推薦大家投資但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放在這件事情上面公平會員有沒有角色可以做處理"},{"start":205.649,"end":219.219,"text":"我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然"},{"start":224.663,"end":248.479,"text":"如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了 刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只是講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發布詐騙歸這個警政署"},{"start":252.822,"end":273.581,"text":"麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個"},{"start":276.403,"end":298.589,"text":"五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有延達臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過"},{"start":300.009,"end":308.951,"text":"只要就商品的相關及足以影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PC home包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的"},{"start":327.435,"end":345.18,"text":"但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有訴願的空間完全沒有訴願空間因為這是假的嘛就是騙的嘛"},{"start":346.44,"end":361.216,"text":"當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯"},{"start":362.097,"end":376.803,"text":"全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大"},{"start":377.54,"end":402.166,"text":"那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎"},{"start":403.166,"end":425.66,"text":"主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮"},{"start":428.04,"end":454.086,"text":"所以反倒是你有賣東西 這個東西的品質功能不太好 這個會被開罰賣騙你的 不會開罰 沒事同樣是不實 一個是全部空的 完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實 你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的 騙的 假的 完全的這種不實 你是不開罰的我認為這個是國王評會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛 你開罰了 如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛"},{"start":455.827,"end":467.826,"text":"來疏遠 給行政院來疏遠嘛 給更來疏遠嘛 包括行政法院都可以來疏遠 你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不用做的時候 這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛 我講了嘛 光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件"},{"start":470.916,"end":487.226,"text":"明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平委員明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了"},{"start":488.894,"end":514.406,"text":"在於公平交易法21條不實廣告．對廣告主．對廣告代理業者．對廣告媒體業者．對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能 沒有你們自我限縮 自我保守你們只要開罰．不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的"},{"start":515.907,"end":524.437,"text":"臉書會不知道嗎臉書用ASA搜尋一下往下看啦齁沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對"},{"start":526.204,"end":553.059,"text":"這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那"},{"start":554.72,"end":578.881,"text":"政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓"},{"start":579.642,"end":580.763,"text":"臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做"},{"start":601.343,"end":627.971,"text":"主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦"},{"start":629.812,"end":639.388,"text":"沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這些事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於"},{"start":640.866,"end":665.709,"text":"詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力去約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法嘛但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦"},{"start":666.229,"end":684.453,"text":"不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰了一件兩件三件這些詐騙的就知道"},{"start":684.853,"end":698.248,"text":"公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰"},{"start":703.894,"end":724.325,"text":"你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為"},{"start":729.464,"end":739.635,"text":"臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好整個這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份給我一個報告好謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:31:31 - 09:43:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":154939,"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時31分）謝謝召委，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委早。我想請教你，現在民怨之首是什麼？民怨最高的是什麼事件？"],["李主任委員鎂：詐騙。"],["賴委員瑞隆：公平會也是政府機關的一環，對於政府應該全力來打詐，我想請教一下，公平會對於打詐這件事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做？"],["李主任委員鎂：打詐是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它、去阻止它，所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組，公平會也是其中的一員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：公平會有什麼樣更積極的作為？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說我們負責如何去識詐、阻詐，這一部分我們也應該責無旁貸去做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你認為公平會有沒有善盡打詐跟整個防詐的工作？有沒有盡了最大的努力？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有去努力……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望你們有盡了最大努力，我認為公平會有努力，但是我認為還有一些空間。我們來看一下，公平會在查處開罰上，包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告，從110年的63件、111年的81件、112年的92件，到今年1到8月的51件，大概就是這樣的規模，一樣不會超過百件；網路廣告也是一樣，大概也是不到百件，從57件、72件、87件，到今年1到8月的49件，相較於1到3月刑事警察局通報的3萬4,055件詐騙案，這是3個月的數量而已，這樣回推下來，大概一年有12萬件，以公平會查處的數量來看，大概不到0.1%。我的意思是說，各單位有沒有都窮盡了各種方法、盡了最大努力防詐？我認為公平會在不實廣告裡面你還有很大的空間，你的報告第五點也提到了查察不實廣告，對我來說，除了查察不實廣告外，詐騙其實是更嚴重的不實廣告，它是空的，什麼都沒有，就可以給你做不實、給你做詐騙。","其實我認為公平交易法裡面有給予公平會足夠的空間去做打詐這樣的動作，所以你不要擔憂，你打了它之後，它要不要來訴願或是要不要來做其他的動作，那是另外一件事情，但是你連打都不打的時候，這些詐騙就會非常的猖獗，主委認不認同這樣的看法？"],["李主任委員鎂：我認同各部會看到有詐欺的情形時都要去處理，所以我們在監控不實廣告的過程中……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委先不要提到各部會，公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想沒有最好，只有更好，我們有可以再努力的空間，不敢說百分之百已經做到最好，但是打詐這件事情是各部會都要通力合作的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在最多的就是投資詐騙，甚至謝金河、甚至許貴雅等等常常都不斷的澄清他們並沒有推薦大家來投資，但這些東西卻在臉書、在很多的平臺上，都不斷地被投放，在這件事情上面，公平會有沒有角色可以做處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個廣告如果內容不實，影響交易秩序，公平法第二十一條一定可以處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個一定是不實，因為當事人都已經澄清自己並沒有做這樣的宣傳，鼓勵大家來買這一支股票，鼓勵大家來投資，所以這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況，當然……"],["李主任委員鎂：如果涉及到委員說的詐欺，那已經是刑事犯罪，刑事犯罪的處罰……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我說的刑事或數發部等等，都有它相關的規定可以去處理，我現在講的是公平會在你的角色上，你有沒有辦法去做處理？我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理的，因為我講過了，這是比不實廣告還要更嚴重的不實，裡面賣的是一個空的東西，但是你們自我限縮，覺得這是詐騙，所以詐騙要歸數發部，詐騙要歸警政署，他們忙翻了，但也完全難阻。我的意思是，如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候，因為在實名制之後，你就開罰得到，罰了之後，他們才會有壓力，之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡，你一定要從源頭去管制這件事情，要不然一年光是這樣的案件，像網路違法的投資廣告一年就12萬件，而你們開罰的不到100件，我相信你只要開罰個5,000件、1萬件，他們絕對有相當大的壓力，可能下個月或是隔一個月之後，馬上就少了一半以上甚至是更低，因為這是政府有沒有善盡你角色的問題。","你剛剛也提到了公平交易法第二十一條是有空間的，我們來看一下，其實公平交易法第二十一條有嚴打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的，包括你們對momo也曾開罰過，與商品相關而足以影響交易決定的事項為虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示，開罰10萬；9月12號針對臉書開罰了5萬；9月10號針對臉書開罰了10萬；8月8號針對PChome開罰；7月29號針對臉書有關於購買房子的部分，也開罰了100萬。所以其實你們是有空間、有能力去做處理的，但是你們自我限縮，覺得這是不實行為。我要再次強調，詐騙比不實廣告還要更嚴重的不實，你們當然有權力去開罰，當你們開罰了以後，這些人還有什麼好訴願的空間？完全沒有訴願空間，因為這就是假的、就是騙人的。當你開罰了以後，這些案件量會大量的下降；當你開罰的時候，臉書就沒有辦法去迴避說這是個人的行為，臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益，如果它縱容這些詐騙廣告不斷地出現，其實它形同是共犯。","事實上，全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂，主委也看得懂吧？一般人、多數人，有一半的人我認為都看得懂，那個一看就知道是詐騙廣告，臉書會不知道嗎？詐騙的人會不知道嗎？但是他不需要一半的人被騙，只要10%的人被騙，獲利就非常的巨大，公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡它的職責？我認為現在是沒有的，所以我這一、兩年不斷的講這件事情，希望公平會善盡你該有的職責，讓你成為一個有積極行政、積極作為的機關，而不是消極保守。你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈的，在人民對政府信任度最低的時候，而你在這個位置上面，正有機會可以做一些事的時候，卻放著不做，這不是很可惜嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，容許我說明一下，不實廣告在公平交易法裡面，它是賣商品、賣服務，如果這個行為是你來投資就可以賺多少錢，基本上，這是一個投資的廣告，我們要看公平交易法裡面的不實，不實是對商品服務，如果有合於第二十一條……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我認為這都是你在自我限縮，所以反倒是當你有賣東西，而這個東西品質、功能不太好時，這個就會被開罰，但賣騙你的情況就不會開罰、就沒事，同樣是不實，一種是全部空的，完全沒有的不實；一種是有東西的不實，你只開罰有東西的不實，但你對於空的、騙的、假的、完全的這種不實，你是不開罰的，我認為這個是公平會自我的限縮，你應該要跟著時代來積極行政，我就講了，你開罰了，如果有任何的訴願敢進來，就提出再來談啊！可以訴願啊！包括行政法院都可以向其提出訴願，你都可以來談談看，但是你連這樣的開罰都不願做的時候，這些就會猖獗到這個程度了嘛！我講了，光這樣的詐騙一年有12萬件，名人們都快講破頭了，謝金河說：我沒有、我沒有；許貴雅說：我沒有、我沒有。他們都快講破頭了，都還是沒有用，被詐騙的人數不斷在增加，公平會明明手上有一個武器可做，為什麼不做？","我再講一下，你們對於拍賣網站行動電源的部分都有開罰過了，在於公平交易法第二十一條不實廣告，對廣告主、對廣告代理業者、對廣告媒體業者、對廣告薦證者，都可以開罰，所以你們有沒有善盡這樣的功能？沒有！你們自我限縮、自我保守，你們只要開罰，不只是對實際在詐騙的這些人開罰，甚至於你也可以找臉書來談，它90%的獲利是來自於廣告，連這種不實廣告，我們一般人看到後都知道那是假的，臉書會不知道嗎？臉書用AI搜尋一下，像「沒有錢怎麼辦？」、「如何用小錢賺大錢？」，主委，這一看就知道是有問題的，對不對？你知道、我知道，50%的人可能都知道，但是其他百分之二、三十的人被騙就很嚴重了，臉書會不知道嗎？臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎？要不然你要貼這些廣告，在社群或在臉書上貼這些廣告，至少要有更清楚的、確切的說明啊！現在是登上去臉書後反正也沒有你們的事，這是各自的言論自由，然後臉書都沒事，就是廣告費賺得很高興，或者整個社群賺得很高興，而政府機關說這個不歸它管，變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓，當然人民會怨啊！政府為什麼對這樣事情沒有辦法作為？","我再講一次，數發部開始要有作為了，沒有錯；包括警政署也很努力在做，可是事後歸事後，事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的、可以有一個防制上的效果。如果我們做了更多事前的工作，它的效果就是警政署不用忙翻天，不用整天在那邊抓，也不用很多人被詐騙完了之後還要求它下架，整天發文要求臉書下架，因為臉書就有能力去識別這是不是真的，如果是假的，其實不用全部嘛！現在的詐騙廣告、假的廣告有一半若是你自己篩選掉的，就可以造福很多人了，這做得到嗎？我認為絕對做得到，臉書做得到，公平會做得到，為什麼不做？主委可不可以再說明一下？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員說明，一個行為如果是個犯罪行為，應該由司法好好把它制裁，而公平交易法這個不實廣告的內容，它主要是一個行政罰，如果它同時是一個刑事的案件……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我還是要再跟你強調，我懂你的說法，但我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡各種方法去處理。其實行政法裡面，這個部分行政法也該給他適度的壓力。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們現在是有這個防護監控……"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒有理由所有這些臉書或……到臺灣來的時候，然後在這件事情上面是這麼毫無壓力的啦！賺取了這麼多利益，甚至於詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平臺獲得了這麼多利益，而我們是無能為力去拒絕束他的，這個是交代不過去的！主委，你講的我都懂，你講的都是司法，但我講的是行政作為，行政有沒有在這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政、積極作為，積極打詐、積極反詐騙這樣的作為？如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話，我們當然還會要求數發部，當然會要求其他部會，但我認為公平會該有更強的作為，不然枉費了這一個機關有這樣的能力在做，全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛！我認為臺灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個作法。","我期待在這段時間內，一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為，你只要開罰了1件、2件、3件，這些詐騙的就知道公平會已經開始對這個事情重視了、出手了，這樣自然就會處理，同時間你們也可以跟臉書，跟Meta幾個業者講，我們開始重視問題了，我不是不能罰你，如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告，嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷出現的話，我對於你這個廣告的媒體業者我會開罰，你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容、漠視違法的詐騙廣告不斷地持續出現，你賺這樣的錢是不義之財。我認為這個要讓這些業者做到，而他們有沒有能力做到？絕對有能力做到，AI隨便寫個數字，查一下這些什麼，稍微……有些廣告的貼文是貼得一模一樣的，這個群組貼、那個群組貼，另外那個群組也貼，這個群組詐騙、那個群組詐騙，每個都詐騙，完全無作為，臉書無作為，政府無作為，這樣大家怎麼能接受。好不好？我希望主委，怎麼樣有個作為，一個月內給我一份報告，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？針對這件事情怎麼樣有作為，給我一份報告。好，謝謝。"],["主席：請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","陳超明","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","李坤城","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00001"}}}