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{\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 741.493, \"end\": 741.513, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 741.513, \"end\": 741.533, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 741.533, \"end\": 741.553, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 741.553, \"end\": 741.633, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 741.633, \"end\": 741.653, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 741.653, \"end\": 741.674, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 741.674, \"end\": 741.694, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 741.694, \"end\": 741.714, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 741.714, \"end\": 741.814, \"score\": 0.284}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 741.814, \"end\": 741.834, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 741.834, \"end\": 741.934, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 741.934, \"end\": 741.974, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"北\", 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743.314, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 757.958, \"end\": 758.038, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 758.038, \"end\": 758.058, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 758.058, \"end\": 758.098, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 758.098, \"end\": 758.118, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"葉\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 758.118, \"end\": 758.278, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"芝\", \"start\": 758.278, \"end\": 758.378, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 758.378, \"end\": 758.398, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,265 --> 00:00:04,693\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請吳主委\n\n2\n00:00:09,414 --> 00:00:25,219\n科學委員好嗨各位我想我很清楚這個范委員為什麼要排這個因為我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個這個學者要連署那這就是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在五十幾億然後我們自然處我現在幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題\n\n3\n00:00:37,322 --> 00:00:40,084\n自然處60幾億工程處80幾億跟我們台灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯不過今天你剛回應了前面兩個委員的一些問題所以我也不再多贅述但是呢這個\n\n4\n00:00:53,611 --> 00:01:11,193\n主委也不用那麼樣無奈。我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼渲染大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱\n\n5\n00:01:11,954 --> 00:01:17,120\n你脆弱到一件事情你要做一點的調整你就引發這麼大的這個部分然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息這是學者專家學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證如果不求證的話你卻又泛遊這個部分來你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是一個很大的落差的\n\n6\n00:01:31,155 --> 00:01:31,255\n好,我們會檢討\n\n7\n00:01:51,189 --> 00:02:06,404\n好這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變\n\n8\n00:02:08,546 --> 00:02:35,356\n每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看\n\n9\n00:02:35,856 --> 00:02:35,896\n謝謝科委員謝謝\n\n10\n00:02:57,341 --> 00:03:03,603\n但是我們人文處是不是金費可以多一點,我說實在的,身體的人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程,工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處金費也是逐年在增加但是差了工程處還是30億,30億,好不好?\n\n11\n00:03:13,126 --> 00:03:38,214\n公眾處因為學界的人數最多啦沒錯啦但是還是一樣人文處的不是不是我們我們人也很多只會我們拿到的比例都比較少別人都是上千萬的因為公眾處還有很多的設備我當然知道但是還是一句話我們如果從這個經費來看的話還是要多多講一下話來我們來看一下基本上這整個都還是先到整個人才上面一個培育你104你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億\n\n12\n00:03:39,895 --> 00:03:54,983\n但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裏面啊抱歉跨領域的整合計畫當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的質詢率未達五成欸\n\n13\n00:04:06,088 --> 00:04:14,693\n這未達五成欸主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且呢你的達成率是未達五成的喔這個部分呢難道這個審計部會提出來我等一下給你機會一併來說明喔下面一個你看我調出了從98到113年你看你有那麼多的人才講座教授、課座教授、國科會講座\n\n14\n00:04:35,043 --> 00:04:35,223\n主委這概念中﹖\n\n15\n00:05:04,099 --> 00:05:09,862\n你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到11010年我們看一個計劃10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼\n\n16\n00:05:29,511 --> 00:05:42,317\n你看他有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是fulltime的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎\n\n17\n00:05:55,922 --> 00:06:10,566\n我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你\n\n18\n00:06:17,888 --> 00:06:36,645\n但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了因為產業需求人力的確其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的這是我所看到的我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫他永遠在延攬補助計畫但是從學界離開以後\n\n19\n00:06:39,528 --> 00:06:44,132\n我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼\n\n20\n00:07:03,109 --> 00:07:06,714\n重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢\n\n21\n00:07:18,388 --> 00:07:26,670\n你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下來我們接下來最後來看一下我也看到你們有這個大南方產業的生態系我覺得很好只要看到南方我們都很願意但是你看看05你要投資360億我比較好奇是鏈場域170億當中你說要結合我們這個S狼帶\n\n22\n00:07:46,914 --> 00:07:47,094\n我可不可以問一下?\n\n23\n00:08:04,206 --> 00:08:04,266\n主席\n\n24\n00:08:19,206 --> 00:08:19,286\n委員會主席\n\n25\n00:08:49,867 --> 00:08:51,389\n報告委員我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系我們希望把需求端的產業\n\n26\n00:09:06,186 --> 00:09:07,726\n每個學校所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上都來問你可不可以告訴我一個標準我電話接不完欸\n\n27\n00:09:24,171 --> 00:09:50,297\n高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?\n\n28\n00:09:52,430 --> 00:10:01,517\n就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我跟科委員報告你先聽我講嘛欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好\n\n29\n00:10:16,207 --> 00:10:16,808\n對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職到專業校所以你會有一個標準\n\n30\n00:10:30,834 --> 00:10:55,711\n沒有,沒有,沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有...所以不是只有15間?不是,不是,所有的技專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的,你們並沒有準備好\n\n31\n00:10:56,852 --> 00:10:58,194\n我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的一個落差了\n\n32\n00:11:14,894 --> 00:11:25,945\n最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的\n\n33\n00:11:51,897 --> 00:12:11,890\n我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在我在南部裡面好好的辦大一場\n\n34\n00:12:12,671 --> 00:12:23,314\n我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計畫崛起之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好\n\n35\n00:12:37,958 --> 00:12:38,398\n下一位我們請葉元芝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3265\t4693\t謝謝主席,我們是不是請吳主委\n9414\t25219\t科學委員好嗨 各位我想我很清楚這個范委員為什麼要排這個因為我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個這個學者要連署那這就是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在五十幾億然後我們自然處我現在幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題\n37322\t40084\t自然處60幾億工程處80幾億跟我們台灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯不過今天你剛回應了前面兩個委員的一些問題所以我也不再多贅述但是呢這個\n53611\t71193\t主委也不用那麼樣無奈。我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼渲染大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱\n71954\t77120\t你脆弱到一件事情你要做一點的調整你就引發這麼大的這個部分然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息這是學者專家學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證如果不求證的話你卻又泛遊這個部分來你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是一個很大的落差的\n91155\t91255\t好,我們會檢討\n111189\t126404\t好 這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變\n128546\t155356\t每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看\n155856\t155896\t謝謝科委員謝謝\n177341\t183603\t但是我們人文處是不是金費可以多一點,我說實在的,身體的人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程,工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處金費也是逐年在增加但是差了工程處還是30億,30億,好不好?\n193126\t218214\t公眾處因為學界的人數最多啦沒錯啦但是還是一樣人文處的不是不是我們我們人也很多只會我們拿到的比例都比較少別人都是上千萬的因為公眾處還有很多的設備我當然知道但是還是一句話我們如果從這個經費來看的話還是要多多講一下話來我們來看一下基本上這整個都還是先到整個人才上面一個培育你104你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億\n219895\t234983\t但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裏面啊抱歉跨領域的整合計畫當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的質詢率未達五成欸\n246088\t254693\t這未達五成欸主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且呢你的達成率是未達五成的喔這個部分呢難道這個審計部會提出來我等一下給你機會一併來說明喔下面一個你看我調出了從98到113年你看你有那麼多的人才講座教授、課座教授、國科會講座\n275043\t275223\t主委 這概念中﹖\n304099\t309862\t你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到110 10年我們看一個計劃10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼\n329511\t342317\t你看他有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是full time的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎\n355922\t370566\t我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你\n377888\t396645\t但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了因為產業需求人力的確其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的這是我所看到的我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫他永遠在延攬補助計畫但是從學界離開以後\n399528\t404132\t我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼\n423109\t426714\t重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢\n438388\t446670\t你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下來我們接下來最後來看一下我也看到你們有這個大南方產業的生態系我覺得很好只要看到南方我們都很願意但是你看看05你要投資360億我比較好奇是鏈場域170億當中你說要結合我們這個S狼帶\n466914\t467094\t我可不可以問一下?\n484206\t484266\t主席\n499206\t499286\t委員會主席\n529867\t531389\t報告委員我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系我們希望把需求端的產業\n546186\t547726\t每個學校所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上都來問你可不可以告訴我一個標準我電話接不完欸\n564171\t590297\t高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?\n592430\t601517\t就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我跟科委員報告你先聽我講嘛欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好\n616207\t616808\t對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職到專業校所以你會有一個標準\n630834\t655711\t沒有,沒有,沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有...所以不是只有15間?不是,不是,所有的技專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的,你們並沒有準備好\n656852\t658194\t我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的一個落差了\n674894\t685945\t最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的\n693933\t711817\t﹏﹏\n711897\t731890\t我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在我在南部裡面好好的辦大一場\n732671\t743314\t我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計畫崛起之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好\n757958\t758398\t下一位我們請葉元芝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請吳主委\n科學委員好嗨 各位我想我很清楚這個范委員為什麼要排這個因為我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個這個學者要連署那這就是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在五十幾億然後我們自然處我現在幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題\n自然處60幾億工程處80幾億跟我們台灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯不過今天你剛回應了前面兩個委員的一些問題所以我也不再多贅述但是呢這個\n主委也不用那麼樣無奈。我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼渲染大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱\n你脆弱到一件事情你要做一點的調整你就引發這麼大的這個部分然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息這是學者專家學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證如果不求證的話你卻又泛遊這個部分來你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是一個很大的落差的\n好,我們會檢討\n好 這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變\n每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看\n謝謝科委員謝謝\n但是我們人文處是不是金費可以多一點,我說實在的,身體的人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程,工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處金費也是逐年在增加但是差了工程處還是30億,30億,好不好?\n公眾處因為學界的人數最多啦沒錯啦但是還是一樣人文處的不是不是我們我們人也很多只會我們拿到的比例都比較少別人都是上千萬的因為公眾處還有很多的設備我當然知道但是還是一句話我們如果從這個經費來看的話還是要多多講一下話來我們來看一下基本上這整個都還是先到整個人才上面一個培育你104你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億\n但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裏面啊抱歉跨領域的整合計畫當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的質詢率未達五成欸\n這未達五成欸主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且呢你的達成率是未達五成的喔這個部分呢難道這個審計部會提出來我等一下給你機會一併來說明喔下面一個你看我調出了從98到113年你看你有那麼多的人才講座教授、課座教授、國科會講座\n主委 這概念中﹖\n你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到110 10年我們看一個計劃10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼\n你看他有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是full time的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎\n我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你\n但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了因為產業需求人力的確其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的這是我所看到的我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫他永遠在延攬補助計畫但是從學界離開以後\n我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼\n重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢\n你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下來我們接下來最後來看一下我也看到你們有這個大南方產業的生態系我覺得很好只要看到南方我們都很願意但是你看看05你要投資360億我比較好奇是鏈場域170億當中你說要結合我們這個S狼帶\n我可不可以問一下?\n主席\n委員會主席\n報告委員我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系我們希望把需求端的產業\n每個學校所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上都來問你可不可以告訴我一個標準我電話接不完欸\n高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?\n就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我跟科委員報告你先聽我講嘛欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好\n對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職到專業校所以你會有一個標準\n沒有,沒有,沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有...所以不是只有15間?不是,不是,所有的技專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的,你們並沒有準備好\n我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的一個落差了\n最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的\n﹏﹏\n我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在我在南部裡面好好的辦大一場\n我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計畫崛起之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好\n下一位我們請葉元芝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.265 --> 00:04.693\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請吳主委\n\n00:09.414 --> 00:25.219\n科學委員好嗨各位我想我很清楚這個范委員為什麼要排這個因為我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個這個學者要連署那這就是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在五十幾億然後我們自然處我現在幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題\n\n00:37.322 --> 00:40.084\n自然處60幾億工程處80幾億跟我們台灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯不過今天你剛回應了前面兩個委員的一些問題所以我也不再多贅述但是呢這個\n\n00:53.611 --> 01:11.193\n主委也不用那麼樣無奈。我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼渲染大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱\n\n01:11.954 --> 01:17.120\n你脆弱到一件事情你要做一點的調整你就引發這麼大的這個部分然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息這是學者專家學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證如果不求證的話你卻又泛遊這個部分來你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是一個很大的落差的\n\n01:31.155 --> 01:31.255\n好,我們會檢討\n\n01:51.189 --> 02:06.404\n好這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變\n\n02:08.546 --> 02:35.356\n每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看\n\n02:35.856 --> 02:35.896\n謝謝科委員謝謝\n\n02:57.341 --> 03:03.603\n但是我們人文處是不是金費可以多一點,我說實在的,身體的人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程,工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處金費也是逐年在增加但是差了工程處還是30億,30億,好不好?\n\n03:13.126 --> 03:38.214\n公眾處因為學界的人數最多啦沒錯啦但是還是一樣人文處的不是不是我們我們人也很多只會我們拿到的比例都比較少別人都是上千萬的因為公眾處還有很多的設備我當然知道但是還是一句話我們如果從這個經費來看的話還是要多多講一下話來我們來看一下基本上這整個都還是先到整個人才上面一個培育你104你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億\n\n03:39.895 --> 03:54.983\n但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裏面啊抱歉跨領域的整合計畫當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的質詢率未達五成欸\n\n04:06.088 --> 04:14.693\n這未達五成欸主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且呢你的達成率是未達五成的喔這個部分呢難道這個審計部會提出來我等一下給你機會一併來說明喔下面一個你看我調出了從98到113年你看你有那麼多的人才講座教授、課座教授、國科會講座\n\n04:35.043 --> 04:35.223\n主委這概念中﹖\n\n05:04.099 --> 05:09.862\n你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到11010年我們看一個計劃10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼\n\n05:29.511 --> 05:42.317\n你看他有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是fulltime的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎\n\n05:55.922 --> 06:10.566\n我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你\n\n06:17.888 --> 06:36.645\n但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了因為產業需求人力的確其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的這是我所看到的我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫他永遠在延攬補助計畫但是從學界離開以後\n\n06:39.528 --> 06:44.132\n我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼\n\n07:03.109 --> 07:06.714\n重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢\n\n07:18.388 --> 07:26.670\n你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下來我們接下來最後來看一下我也看到你們有這個大南方產業的生態系我覺得很好只要看到南方我們都很願意但是你看看05你要投資360億我比較好奇是鏈場域170億當中你說要結合我們這個S狼帶\n\n07:46.914 --> 07:47.094\n我可不可以問一下?\n\n08:04.206 --> 08:04.266\n主席\n\n08:19.206 --> 08:19.286\n委員會主席\n\n08:49.867 --> 08:51.389\n報告委員我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系我們希望把需求端的產業\n\n09:06.186 --> 09:07.726\n每個學校所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上都來問你可不可以告訴我一個標準我電話接不完欸\n\n09:24.171 --> 09:50.297\n高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?\n\n09:52.430 --> 10:01.517\n就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我跟科委員報告你先聽我講嘛欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好\n\n10:16.207 --> 10:16.808\n對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職到專業校所以你會有一個標準\n\n10:30.834 --> 10:55.711\n沒有,沒有,沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有...所以不是只有15間?不是,不是,所有的技專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的,你們並沒有準備好\n\n10:56.852 --> 10:58.194\n我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的一個落差了\n\n11:14.894 --> 11:25.945\n最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的\n\n11:51.897 --> 12:11.890\n我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在我在南部裡面好好的辦大一場\n\n12:12.671 --> 12:23.314\n我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計畫崛起之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好\n\n12:37.958 --> 12:38.398\n下一位我們請葉元芝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.265,"end":4.693,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請吳主委"},{"start":9.414,"end":25.219,"text":"科學委員好嗨 各位我想我很清楚這個范委員為什麼要排這個因為我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個這個學者要連署那這就是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在五十幾億然後我們自然處我現在幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題"},{"start":37.322,"end":40.084,"text":"自然處60幾億工程處80幾億跟我們台灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯不過今天你剛回應了前面兩個委員的一些問題所以我也不再多贅述但是呢這個"},{"start":53.611,"end":71.193,"text":"主委也不用那麼樣無奈。我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼渲染大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱"},{"start":71.954,"end":77.12,"text":"你脆弱到一件事情你要做一點的調整你就引發這麼大的這個部分然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息這是學者專家學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證如果不求證的話你卻又泛遊這個部分來你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是一個很大的落差的"},{"start":91.155,"end":91.255,"text":"好,我們會檢討"},{"start":111.189,"end":126.404,"text":"好 這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變"},{"start":128.546,"end":155.356,"text":"每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看"},{"start":155.856,"end":155.896,"text":"謝謝科委員謝謝"},{"start":177.341,"end":183.603,"text":"但是我們人文處是不是金費可以多一點,我說實在的,身體的人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程,工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處金費也是逐年在增加但是差了工程處還是30億,30億,好不好?"},{"start":193.126,"end":218.214,"text":"公眾處因為學界的人數最多啦沒錯啦但是還是一樣人文處的不是不是我們我們人也很多只會我們拿到的比例都比較少別人都是上千萬的因為公眾處還有很多的設備我當然知道但是還是一句話我們如果從這個經費來看的話還是要多多講一下話來我們來看一下基本上這整個都還是先到整個人才上面一個培育你104你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億"},{"start":219.895,"end":234.983,"text":"但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裏面啊抱歉跨領域的整合計畫當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的質詢率未達五成欸"},{"start":246.088,"end":254.693,"text":"這未達五成欸主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且呢你的達成率是未達五成的喔這個部分呢難道這個審計部會提出來我等一下給你機會一併來說明喔下面一個你看我調出了從98到113年你看你有那麼多的人才講座教授、課座教授、國科會講座"},{"start":275.043,"end":275.223,"text":"主委 這概念中﹖"},{"start":304.099,"end":309.862,"text":"你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到110 10年我們看一個計劃10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼"},{"start":329.511,"end":342.317,"text":"你看他有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是full time的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎"},{"start":355.922,"end":370.566,"text":"我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你"},{"start":377.888,"end":396.645,"text":"但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了因為產業需求人力的確其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的這是我所看到的我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫他永遠在延攬補助計畫但是從學界離開以後"},{"start":399.528,"end":404.132,"text":"我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼"},{"start":423.109,"end":426.714,"text":"重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢"},{"start":438.388,"end":446.67,"text":"你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下來我們接下來最後來看一下我也看到你們有這個大南方產業的生態系我覺得很好只要看到南方我們都很願意但是你看看05你要投資360億我比較好奇是鏈場域170億當中你說要結合我們這個S狼帶"},{"start":466.914,"end":467.094,"text":"我可不可以問一下?"},{"start":484.206,"end":484.266,"text":"主席"},{"start":499.206,"end":499.286,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":529.867,"end":531.389,"text":"報告委員我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系我們希望把需求端的產業"},{"start":546.186,"end":547.726,"text":"每個學校所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上都來問你可不可以告訴我一個標準我電話接不完欸"},{"start":564.171,"end":590.297,"text":"高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?"},{"start":592.43,"end":601.517,"text":"就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我跟科委員報告你先聽我講嘛欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好"},{"start":616.207,"end":616.808,"text":"對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職到專業校所以你會有一個標準"},{"start":630.834,"end":655.711,"text":"沒有,沒有,沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有...所以不是只有15間?不是,不是,所有的技專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的,你們並沒有準備好"},{"start":656.852,"end":658.194,"text":"我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的一個落差了"},{"start":674.894,"end":685.945,"text":"最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的"},{"start":693.933,"end":711.817,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":711.897,"end":731.89,"text":"我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在我在南部裡面好好的辦大一場"},{"start":732.671,"end":743.314,"text":"我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計畫崛起之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好"},{"start":757.958,"end":758.398,"text":"下一位我們請葉元芝委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:37:01 - 09:50:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":154940,"gazette":{"lineno":241,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請吳主委？"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委，我想我很清楚范委員為什麼要排這個，因為我們同樣來自學界，所以當有600個學者連署，這是茲事體大的一件事情。我們也知道長期以來我們想要申請國科會，我們當然就會去申請人文，人文說實在的，你看評比起來，我真的覺得還滿心酸的，我們以總的預算來說，人文處大概是，處長有沒有在？大概是五十幾億，然後自然處的部分，我在幫你講話，你可以坐下來沒有問題。自然處大概是六十幾億，當然最高的就是工程處，大概八十幾億，這大概跟我們臺灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯。不過，今天你剛剛回應前面兩個委員的一些問題，所以我也不再多贅述，但是主委也不用那麼無奈，我說實在的，今天你剛剛回答第一位洪委員問題的時候，你說可能就是有一些行政人員的變動，或者在內部做一些討論，造成這麼軒然大波，但是主委，我說實在的，那表示國科會裡面，整個行政系統太脆弱，脆弱到一件事情，光你要做一點點的調整，就引發這麼大的部分，然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法，這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息，這是學者專家耶，學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證？如果不求證的話，你卻又放由這個部分，你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是個很大的落差，這才是你應該要檢討的問題！不是你個人的問題，而是你從頭到尾，你們的組織系統到底發生什麼問題？一個你所謂的誤會，一個你所謂的留言，竟然可以串成這麼大的一個600位學者來做連署，難道國科會不應該稍微做一些脈絡上的檢討嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會檢討。"],["柯委員志恩：這個還是有多一點的無奈！但是我還是必須告訴主委，有很多人跟我們來反映，國科會目前為止，其實沒有太大的一個溝通的作法，學界基本上是非常不滿的，你不要看學界的這個整併，不管它是不是事實，即使總金額不變，光是每一個人的專長，在這個學門的分配當中，你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些整合，每一個人再細節、細分到這個學科，你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來的研究有任何的影響，他們大家都會跳腳，所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下，你要建立一個SOP。然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門，可能你有一些需求，因為這件事件之後，讓你完全裹足不前。你看一點小小的人事上面一個小變動，還不是一個經費的變動，照你的說法，就會造成這樣大跳腳，所以主委，SOP，還有從下而上找這些學者專家公開座談，請大家澈底，否則這件事情光是600個人的連署都嚇死人了，好不好？主委，給你一個良心的建議。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝柯委員。"],["柯委員志恩：同樣是來自學界的建議。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我們人文處是不是經費給多一點，我說實在的，申請的人真的是不少，然後竟然是和工程處差了30億，這像話嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啦！我們人文處的經費也是逐年在增加。"],["柯委員志恩：但工程處還是差了30億！還是一樣……"],["吳主任委員誠文：工程處是因為學界的人數最多。"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒錯啦！但還是一樣。人文處的不是……我們人也很多，只是我們拿到的比例都比較少，別人都是上千萬的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為工程處還有很多的設備……"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道，但還是一句話，如果從這個經費來看的話，我們還是要多多講一下話。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：我們來看一下，基本上，這整個都還是牽涉到人才上面的培育。114年的科發基金大概編列了57億，但是我說實在，每次看到國科會提出的這些名詞，我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫、以前有什麼樣的東西，現在又有「跨領域」、「2030學者養成」，名詞非常的多，我們一一來檢視一下。審計部審核報告裡面在跨領域整合計畫當中，你逐年減少，而且連續兩年，你的執行率未達五成。主委，你要不要稍微說一下？為什麼連續兩年，不僅是你核定的補助案件逐年減少，而且你的達成率是未達五成？這個部分難怪審計部會提出來，我等一下給你機會一併來說明。我調出了從98到113年的資料，你有那麼多的人才，包括講座教授、客座教授、國科會講座，你看看明顯呈現非常大降幅的趨勢。在人才培育上面，你不斷信誓旦旦告訴我們，你們是努力在做，可是數據會說話，而且你看這當中，十年來參與的人明顯下降，而且留在臺灣參與的人數竟然有14%是提早離開的。主委，這很嚴重！你花了這麼多錢來做這樣的事情，卻有14%的人是提早離職的。我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的，你看看102到112年，我們看一個計畫10年其實很準的，有178位所謂博士級的研究人員連續受補助10到22次，這代表什麼？還有123位不斷的……因為他是約聘，都不是full-time job，然後計畫結束完之後，再來簽約、再來簽約、再來簽約，重複的人其實非常的多。主委，你應該知道吧？如果都讓他用約聘，然後計畫結束完再簽約，他永遠都是在這個position，所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才有幫助嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然期望各大學在聘用人才的時候儘量用正職，但是……"],["柯委員志恩：你看這些計畫所培養的這些人，就是計畫3年、5年結束之後，再來給他簽約，他永遠就處在這個狀況當中。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們現在因為各大學的教職……"],["柯委員志恩：不光是大學，產業也沒有，所以我只是告訴你……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了，因為產業需求人力的確……"],["柯委員志恩：投入產業跟學界任職、找到正職的，這是我所看到的，包括產業界，表示這些人就是不斷重複申請你們的延攬補助計畫，他永遠在延攬補助計畫……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是從學界離開以後……"],["柯委員志恩：我要指的是這178個，你去看這178個，這是數據，我不要講別的，就這178個你們專門補助的，所以我還是要特別提出這個部分。雖然你才剛上任，國科會過去只要遇到成效不佳的時候，就會開始說要來精進你們的執行率，結果你們的作法是什麼？重新調整經費的配比、重新讓計畫換名詞，看起來好像成效比較高了，但我還是要說，這對整個科研真的是沒有太大的幫助，所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的呼籲。否則編再多的錢，卻沒有給他們這樣的空間，我說實在的，每個人就是用約聘的方法，補助完再來補助，一輩子做這樣的事情。說實在，國科會這樣花錢到底有沒有效，我要請主委好好思考一下。","接下來，我也看到你們有大南方產業生態系，我覺得很好，只要看到南方，我們都很願意，但是你看看五年要投資360億，我比較好奇的是在「鏈場域」170億當中，你說要結合S廊帶，南科具有非常大的主導位置，因為這裡面不管是屏東、橋頭，還是楠梓，起碼四個裡面就有兩個在高雄，而且要形成很大的AI產業鏈。這170億，你要做什麼？我可不可以問一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實跟前面的委員提問有關，就是我們要把現在硬體的實力，擴散到可以有軟體的實力，也就是在應用方面我們會擴散……"],["柯委員志恩：好啦！你們準備好了沒有？你要擴散，我同意，因為臺灣以後就是要用AI來揚名國際。問題是國科會編出來的，我們一一來看。我想主委可能要更清楚地了解，這邊有一個部分是要「引人才」，你的新聞稿裡面特別講出來是15個學校。你的新聞稿講得很大，所以我也很注意，哪15所學校？你說要跟南部的15所技職學校合作，包括5,400個老師、16萬個同學，我看起來很高興。到底15間學校是怎麼估出來的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在是以南部，從嘉義以南、科學園區所在的這個範圍……"],["柯委員志恩：15個的標準是什麼？你們上面寫了15這麼多。"],["吳主任委員誠文：主要是技職體系，我們希望把需求端的產業……"],["柯委員志恩：我同意技職體系，問題是你講得出15間技職學校，南部技職體系就不只15間，光高雄就比這個數字還多，15間怎麼出來的？標準在哪裡？所有聽到這個東西的每個學校校長都來問，你可不可以告訴我標準？因為我電話接不完！高雄餐旅學校有沒有？你要創新產業，有沒有高雄餐旅？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都有。其實所有學校我們都歡迎，我們沒有逼學校，但是所有學校願意……"],["柯委員志恩：你知道高雄有幾所技職學校嗎？主委，你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們指的不是高職端，是大專……"],["柯委員志恩：我們不只有15間，好不好？我們有10所技職教育大學、17所技術型高中，還有很多。"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有專科……"],["柯委員志恩：還有什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是科大跟專科學校。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那我就發個函，因為很多人問我，我就被問到完全不行了。我就發個函給你們，你看一下你們怎麼回復我。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟柯委員報告……"],["柯委員志恩：你先聽我講完。主委，你說15間，此為表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量，並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單，如果是這樣的話，請你以後不要講15所，好不好？不然每個人都在想是不是花落誰家，到底會不會得到這個補助、要提什麼計畫？拜託一下，這樣增加我們很多困擾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起！對不起！我們要改善，我們歡迎所有的技職大專院校都來參與。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你會有個標準？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。我們徵案的時候會有應用的類別，那會……"],["柯委員志恩：所以不是只有15間？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是。所有的技專院校我們都歡迎。"],["柯委員志恩：你不曉得你們新聞稿裡隨便一個經費，大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的補助，你就指名15間，但根本不只有這些學校，會造成非常大的困擾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我說實在的，你的回應也表達你們並沒有準備好。這種回應是表達完全沒有準備好的概念。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在正在準備當中，計畫是明年開始，所以我們現在……"],["柯委員志恩：你新聞稿講得這麼大，好像一副大家都已經準備要上陣了一樣，所以我覺得這個宣傳與實際的作為跟我們的理解有很大的落差。","最後，有關南科追夢計畫，我還是要特別提醒，你們全部都往臺北去做，而且看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠做南漂兩部曲。鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠南下來追夢，我給予肯定，但是我說實在的，能夠吸引優秀年輕人到南科來工作是很好，但是你幹嘛要捨近求遠？每次要做任何的計畫，全部都往臺北招募人才過來，為什麼不要在在地的就做這樣的人才招募計畫呢？這裡面有這麼多的學校，怎麼樣？這些學校你都覺得不太能夠加入，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這些學校我們都歡迎，我們一直都有跟他們在合作。"],["柯委員志恩：你們都有在合作，問題是這又是一個大宣傳來告訴我積極地北上徵詢人才，對於南部這些學校來說，到底什麼時候可以把北部這麼盛大的狀況同樣在南部好好大辦一場？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們真的是在努力。第一，南部的人才可以留在南部工作……"],["柯委員志恩：當然。"],["吳主任委員誠文：第二，我們也歡迎北漂人才回來。"],["柯委員志恩：我請吳主委協調南科管理局，在今年計畫截止之前或者明年可以到高雄、到南部來辦，真正地讓更多人願意到南部來，沒有必要讓北跟南失衡。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒問題。"],["柯委員志恩：所以這是你承諾的，要照這個部分來做這樣的處理，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒問題。"],["柯委員志恩：不要捨近求遠，臺灣有很多的科技人才，不是只有北部有，南部其實已經培養出非常的多了，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：最後我要求170億鏈場域計畫裡面的細節，你還是要跟本席提出一份更詳細的計畫，交給我辦公室，好不好？我想要澈底了解一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯志恩委員。吳主委，請回。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}}