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\"end\": 229.047, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 229.047, \"end\": 231.908, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 231.908, \"end\": 232.428, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 232.428, \"end\": 233.148, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 233.148, \"end\": 233.509, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 233.509, \"end\": 233.849, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"富\", \"start\": 233.849, \"end\": 234.249, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"植\", \"start\": 234.249, \"end\": 235.709, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"栽\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 235.709, \"end\": 235.869, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 235.869, \"end\": 236.129, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 236.129, \"end\": 236.55, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 236.55, \"end\": 237.73, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 237.73, \"end\": 237.99, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 237.99, \"end\": 238.17, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 238.17, \"end\": 238.41, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 238.41, \"end\": 238.59, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"匯\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"抵\", \"start\": 238.59, \"end\": 238.61, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 238.61, \"end\": 238.71, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 238.71, \"end\": 239.25, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 239.25, \"end\": 239.27, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 244.392, \"end\": 265.517, \"text\": \"那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 244.392, \"end\": 244.592, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 244.592, \"end\": 244.952, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 244.952, \"end\": 245.392, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 245.392, \"end\": 245.792, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 245.792, \"end\": 245.932, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 245.932, \"end\": 246.172, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 246.172, \"end\": 246.332, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 246.332, \"end\": 246.533, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 246.533, \"end\": 246.713, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 246.713, \"end\": 246.933, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 246.933, \"end\": 247.253, 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 261.456, \"end\": 261.636, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 261.636, \"end\": 261.936, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 261.936, \"end\": 262.176, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 262.176, \"end\": 262.756, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 262.756, \"end\": 262.896, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 262.896, \"end\": 264.117, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 264.117, \"end\": 264.497, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 264.497, \"end\": 264.677, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 264.677, \"end\": 264.897, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 264.897, \"end\": 265.077, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 265.077, \"end\": 265.317, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 265.317, 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0.932}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 272.681, \"end\": 272.861, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 272.861, \"end\": 273.041, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 273.041, \"end\": 273.221, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 273.221, \"end\": 273.361, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 273.361, \"end\": 273.481, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 273.481, \"end\": 273.842, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"淨\"}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 273.842, \"end\": 274.062, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 274.062, \"end\": 274.302, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 274.302, \"end\": 274.582, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 274.582, \"end\": 274.722, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 274.722, \"end\": 274.922, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 274.922, \"end\": 275.062, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 275.062, \"end\": 275.843, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 275.843, \"end\": 275.963, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 275.963, \"end\": 276.243, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 276.243, \"end\": 276.403, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 276.403, \"end\": 276.923, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 276.923, \"end\": 277.103, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 277.103, \"end\": 277.283, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 277.283, \"end\": 277.504, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 277.504, \"end\": 278.064, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 278.064, \"end\": 278.284, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 278.284, \"end\": 279.224, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 279.224, \"end\": 279.465, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 279.465, \"end\": 279.705, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"放\", 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\"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 284.327, \"end\": 284.728, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 284.728, \"end\": 285.808, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 285.808, \"end\": 286.208, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 286.208, \"end\": 286.729, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 286.729, \"end\": 286.949, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 286.949, \"end\": 287.149, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 287.149, \"end\": 287.629, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 287.629, \"end\": 287.809, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 287.809, \"end\": 288.009, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 288.009, \"end\": 288.99, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 288.99, \"end\": 290.01, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 290.01, \"end\": 290.831, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 290.831, \"end\": 291.071, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 291.071, \"end\": 291.811, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 291.811, \"end\": 292.432, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 292.432, \"end\": 292.672, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 292.672, \"end\": 292.812, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 292.812, \"end\": 293.252, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 293.252, \"end\": 293.632, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 293.632, \"end\": 293.833, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"填\", \"start\": 293.833, \"end\": 294.093, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"爆\", \"start\": 294.093, \"end\": 294.113, \"score\": 0.003}]}, {\"start\": 294.713, \"end\": 317.863, \"text\": 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\"另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 374.862, \"end\": 375.002, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 375.002, \"end\": 375.282, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 375.282, \"end\": 375.762, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 375.762, \"end\": 375.922, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 375.922, \"end\": 376.542, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 376.542, \"end\": 376.723, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 376.723, \"end\": 376.923, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 376.923, \"end\": 377.483, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 377.483, \"end\": 377.603, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 377.603, \"end\": 377.743, \"score\": 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\"是\", \"start\": 446.18, \"end\": 446.72, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 446.72, \"end\": 447.2, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"抓\", \"start\": 447.2, \"end\": 447.5, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 447.5, \"end\": 448.641, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"迅\", \"start\": 448.641, \"end\": 448.921, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 448.921, \"end\": 449.121, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 449.121, \"end\": 449.682, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 449.682, \"end\": 449.922, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 449.922, \"end\": 450.242, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 450.242, \"end\": 450.422, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 450.422, \"end\": 450.622, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 450.622, \"end\": 451.123, \"score\": 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00:01:01,682\n對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等\n\n4\n00:01:02,462 --> 00:01:30,843\n這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下\n\n5\n00:01:31,483 --> 00:01:58,566\n我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理\n\n6\n00:01:59,306 --> 00:02:15,399\n這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳朱偉我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來\n\n7\n00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:34,906\n就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築\n\n8\n00:02:36,126 --> 00:02:39,767\n在建築部門的總碳排量是佔了37%使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%\n\n9\n00:03:01,115 --> 00:03:02,897\n公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n10\n00:03:21,375 --> 00:03:47,907\n國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說明一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較少的建材或者是說不用長途運輸就地取材就地取材沒有運輸的碳排\n\n11\n00:03:48,627 --> 00:03:59,270\n那在這個設計裡面也考慮到綠富綠植栽這些比較生態的設計那麼增加碳匯來抵減來減少這個碳排\n\n12\n00:04:04,392 --> 00:04:25,517\n那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊\n\n13\n00:04:26,497 --> 00:04:54,113\n對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆\n\n14\n00:04:54,713 --> 00:05:17,863\n那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字\n\n15\n00:05:19,608 --> 00:05:46,080\n沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據\n\n16\n00:05:47,861 --> 00:06:11,079\n目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的\n\n17\n00:06:14,862 --> 00:06:43,109\n另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做\n\n18\n00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:46,821\n臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範\n\n19\n00:07:05,427 --> 00:07:33,444\n臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶我們不能說我送幾包水泥當中還是計算我這個足跡是汽車這個卡車排放了多少我是針對大戶抓大來迅速能夠來降低這些碳排才能夠比較能夠達到我們要\n\n20\n00:07:34,144 --> 00:07:55,753\n這等一下我再跟主委來討論另外就是說我們財務類的志願填報目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這一種有沒有相對的運用來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下對這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的\n\n21\n00:07:56,613 --> 00:07:56,713\n﹚李昆澤\n\n22\n00:08:19,698 --> 00:08:30,032\n這兩個工具要建置完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單\n\n23\n00:08:31,223 --> 00:08:59,155\n更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對\n\n24\n00:09:02,937 --> 00:09:11,501\n這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%\n\n25\n00:09:27,628 --> 00:09:28,928\n工程會每個月都會\n\n26\n00:09:50,354 --> 00:10:07,903\n有這個相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,那麼這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調\n\n27\n00:10:12,705 --> 00:10:13,246\n李昆澤\n\n28\n00:10:31,988 --> 00:10:32,248\n李昆澤委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3399\t4923\t麻煩陳主委謝謝召委請陳金德主委\n11082\t31650\t委員長主委長剛才陳樹葉委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的一個建立這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設那陳主委也身兼政委負責協調督促交通部門相關的公共建設那\n33511\t61682\t對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等\n62462\t90843\t這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下\n91483\t118566\t我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理\n119306\t135399\t這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳朱偉我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來\n136320\t154906\t就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築\n156126\t159767\t在建築部門的總碳排量是佔了37%使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%\n181115\t182897\t公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n201375\t227907\t國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說明一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較少的建材或者是說不用長途運輸就地取材就地取材沒有運輸的碳排\n228627\t239270\t那在這個設計裡面也考慮到綠富綠植栽這些比較生態的設計那麼增加碳匯來抵減來減少這個碳排\n244392\t265517\t那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊\n266497\t294113\t對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆\n294713\t317863\t那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字\n319608\t346080\t沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據\n347861\t371079\t目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的\n374862\t403109\t另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做\n404500\t406821\t臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範\n425427\t453444\t臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶我們不能說我送幾包水泥當中還是計算我這個足跡是汽車這個卡車排放了多少我是針對大戶抓大來迅速能夠來降低這些碳排才能夠比較能夠達到我們要\n454144\t475753\t這等一下我再跟主委來討論另外就是說我們財務類的志願填報目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這一種有沒有相對的運用來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下對這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的\n476613\t476713\t﹚李昆澤\n499698\t510032\t這兩個工具要建置完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單\n511223\t539155\t更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對\n542937\t551501\t這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%\n567628\t568928\t工程會每個月都會\n590354\t607903\t有這個相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,那麼這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調\n612705\t613246\t李昆澤\n631988\t632248\t李昆澤委員\n","txt":"麻煩陳主委謝謝召委請陳金德主委\n委員長主委長剛才陳樹葉委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的一個建立這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設那陳主委也身兼政委負責協調督促交通部門相關的公共建設那\n對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等\n這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下\n我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理\n這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳朱偉我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來\n就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築\n在建築部門的總碳排量是佔了37%使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%\n公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說明一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較少的建材或者是說不用長途運輸就地取材就地取材沒有運輸的碳排\n那在這個設計裡面也考慮到綠富綠植栽這些比較生態的設計那麼增加碳匯來抵減來減少這個碳排\n那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊\n對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆\n那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字\n沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據\n目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的\n另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做\n臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範\n臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶我們不能說我送幾包水泥當中還是計算我這個足跡是汽車這個卡車排放了多少我是針對大戶抓大來迅速能夠來降低這些碳排才能夠比較能夠達到我們要\n這等一下我再跟主委來討論另外就是說我們財務類的志願填報目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這一種有沒有相對的運用來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下對這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的\n﹚李昆澤\n這兩個工具要建置完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單\n更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對\n這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%\n工程會每個月都會\n有這個相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,那麼這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調\n李昆澤\n李昆澤委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.399 --> 00:04.923\n麻煩陳主委謝謝召委請陳金德主委\n\n00:11.082 --> 00:31.650\n委員長主委長剛才陳樹葉委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的一個建立這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設那陳主委也身兼政委負責協調督促交通部門相關的公共建設那\n\n00:33.511 --> 01:01.682\n對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等\n\n01:02.462 --> 01:30.843\n這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下\n\n01:31.483 --> 01:58.566\n我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理\n\n01:59.306 --> 02:15.399\n這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳朱偉我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來\n\n02:16.320 --> 02:34.906\n就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築\n\n02:36.126 --> 02:39.767\n在建築部門的總碳排量是佔了37%使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%\n\n03:01.115 --> 03:02.897\n公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n03:21.375 --> 03:47.907\n國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說明一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較少的建材或者是說不用長途運輸就地取材就地取材沒有運輸的碳排\n\n03:48.627 --> 03:59.270\n那在這個設計裡面也考慮到綠富綠植栽這些比較生態的設計那麼增加碳匯來抵減來減少這個碳排\n\n04:04.392 --> 04:25.517\n那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊\n\n04:26.497 --> 04:54.113\n對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆\n\n04:54.713 --> 05:17.863\n那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字\n\n05:19.608 --> 05:46.080\n沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據\n\n05:47.861 --> 06:11.079\n目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的\n\n06:14.862 --> 06:43.109\n另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做\n\n06:44.500 --> 06:46.821\n臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範\n\n07:05.427 --> 07:33.444\n臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶我們不能說我送幾包水泥當中還是計算我這個足跡是汽車這個卡車排放了多少我是針對大戶抓大來迅速能夠來降低這些碳排才能夠比較能夠達到我們要\n\n07:34.144 --> 07:55.753\n這等一下我再跟主委來討論另外就是說我們財務類的志願填報目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這一種有沒有相對的運用來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下對這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的\n\n07:56.613 --> 07:56.713\n﹚李昆澤\n\n08:19.698 --> 08:30.032\n這兩個工具要建置完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單\n\n08:31.223 --> 08:59.155\n更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對\n\n09:02.937 --> 09:11.501\n這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%\n\n09:27.628 --> 09:28.928\n工程會每個月都會\n\n09:50.354 --> 10:07.903\n有這個相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,那麼這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調\n\n10:12.705 --> 10:13.246\n李昆澤\n\n10:31.988 --> 10:32.248\n李昆澤委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.399,"end":4.923,"text":"麻煩陳主委謝謝召委請陳金德主委"},{"start":11.082,"end":31.65,"text":"委員長主委長剛才陳樹葉委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的一個建立這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設那陳主委也身兼政委負責協調督促交通部門相關的公共建設那"},{"start":33.511,"end":61.682,"text":"對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等"},{"start":62.462,"end":90.843,"text":"這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":91.483,"end":118.566,"text":"我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理"},{"start":119.306,"end":135.399,"text":"這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳朱偉我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來"},{"start":136.32,"end":154.906,"text":"就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築"},{"start":156.126,"end":159.767,"text":"在建築部門的總碳排量是佔了37%使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%"},{"start":181.115,"end":182.897,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":201.375,"end":227.907,"text":"國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說明一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較少的建材或者是說不用長途運輸就地取材就地取材沒有運輸的碳排"},{"start":228.627,"end":239.27,"text":"那在這個設計裡面也考慮到綠富綠植栽這些比較生態的設計那麼增加碳匯來抵減來減少這個碳排"},{"start":244.392,"end":265.517,"text":"那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊"},{"start":266.497,"end":294.113,"text":"對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆"},{"start":294.713,"end":317.863,"text":"那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字"},{"start":319.608,"end":346.08,"text":"沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據"},{"start":347.861,"end":371.079,"text":"目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的"},{"start":374.862,"end":403.109,"text":"另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做"},{"start":404.5,"end":406.821,"text":"臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範"},{"start":425.427,"end":453.444,"text":"臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶我們不能說我送幾包水泥當中還是計算我這個足跡是汽車這個卡車排放了多少我是針對大戶抓大來迅速能夠來降低這些碳排才能夠比較能夠達到我們要"},{"start":454.144,"end":475.753,"text":"這等一下我再跟主委來討論另外就是說我們財務類的志願填報目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這一種有沒有相對的運用來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下對這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的"},{"start":476.613,"end":476.713,"text":"﹚李昆澤"},{"start":499.698,"end":510.032,"text":"這兩個工具要建置完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單"},{"start":511.223,"end":539.155,"text":"更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對"},{"start":542.937,"end":551.501,"text":"這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%"},{"start":567.628,"end":568.928,"text":"工程會每個月都會"},{"start":590.354,"end":607.903,"text":"有這個相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,那麼這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調"},{"start":612.705,"end":613.246,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":631.988,"end":632.248,"text":"李昆澤委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:02:55 - 10:13:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":154949,"gazette":{"lineno":274,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時2分）麻煩陳主委，謝謝召委。"],["主席：請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["李委員昆澤：主委早。剛才陳素月委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的建議，這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設，陳主委也身兼政委，負責協調、督促交通部門相關的公共建設。對於宜蘭的臺鐵鐵路高架化，大概是從四城到羅東……"],["陳主任委員金德：冬山。"],["李委員昆澤：到冬山？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["李委員昆澤：相關的建設對宜蘭的發展是非常重要，當然陳主委做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序，不管是相關的土地徵收、臺鐵公司的資產，或是有無機廠的設置等等，這當然也都有關係到相關的中央補助標準，以及地方相關的財務分級狀況。像現在彰化的臺鐵高架化也是彰化重要的交通建設，我們對於各縣市的補助必須符合相關的程序、法令及標準，讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行，請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我想當中就是用地取得，我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產，所以這部分如果由中央負擔尚稱合適，而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架用地取得是由中央來補助的，因此差別在這裡。剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分，如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用，我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個部分陳素月召委也應該會召集陳世凱部長以及陳主委一起來共同討論，對於全國相關的臺鐵立體化設施的補助標準必須要明確出來。"],["陳主任委員金德：必要的時候可以針對補助要點做修正。"],["李委員昆澤：好，補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎。淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢，國發會也在2050年定下一個目標，在2050年全臺灣的新建築、超過85%既有建築皆達到淨零的目標，這是國發會所定下的重要目標。我們看到內政部的研究報告，建築部門的總碳排量是占了37%、使用階段的碳排放量占了大概28%、興建及修繕拆除階段大概占了9%；工程會的統計，2023年工程採購大概是8,300億元，公共工程占全國的總碳排放量9.78%，大概是有2,700萬噸的二氧化碳排放。針對國發會2050年的碳排總目標，對於公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃？請主委說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們的具體作法，第一個是在設計階段就能夠選用碳排比較少的建材，或者是不用長途運輸，而是就地取材，就地取材就沒有運輸的碳排。在設計裡面也考慮到綠覆率、植栽，這些比較生態的設計，增加碳匯來抵減、減少碳排。我們剛才所講的，不管建立碳排係數的資料庫、估算系統，能夠提供給將來的設計者在設計階段就考量碳排放的計算。另外，在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，營建類的碳排對於淨零的碳排目標其實影響是非常大的，我們剛看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類，第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填報，沒有填報就沒有辦法投標，是屬於強制性的；另外一種是財務類的採購，鼓勵業者自願填報。我們先來看看強制性的這一種，公共工程預估碳排放的強制填報部分，主委，我們每年大概要有3萬件左右的強制性填報，但是如何填報以及填報的數字沒有明確的標準，而且也沒有核對的機制，是不是這樣？請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我想整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段，所以由國發會主責，一切幾乎是從頭開始，我剛才講為什麼要蒐集排放係數、怎麼計算，讓填報者比較有所依據……"],["李委員昆澤：對，要有依據……"],["陳主任委員金德：等於我們是……"],["李委員昆澤：但目前是沒有依據、沒有標準，也沒有一種查核的機制。"],["陳主任委員金德：有的廠商是有，有的廠商比方生產水泥的、生產鋼筋的，或是生產一些……"],["李委員昆澤：所以這就有問題啦！有的廠商是誠實去申報，有的是高報、有的是低報，我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核，這個請主委再做一個詳細的……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們加速精進。"],["李委員昆澤：好。另外，我們來看看國際的作法，按照聯合國的標準，國際的標準是有三種範疇，第一個是生產過程中的直接排放；第二個範疇是所使用的電力間接排放或能源間接排放；第三種是上下游間產生的間接排放。其實在聯合國或者是國際標準，第一類、第二類大概都有做合理的規範了，現在第三種，上下游間所產生的間接排放，國際也在未來要把它定為一個重要的標準跟範疇，而臺灣還沒有，這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國的發展趨勢及標準規範？"],["陳主任委員金德：臺灣當然可以來參考國際的作法，不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求，希望一開始是針對碳排大戶，我們不能說在送幾包水泥的過程當中，還去計算這個足跡，卡車排放了多少，我們是針對大戶、抓大，能夠來迅速降低這些碳排，才比較能夠達到我們淨零的目標。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個等一下我會再跟主委討論。另外，我們財務類的自願填報，目前大概是1,100種左右的產品……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個就是碳排係數。"],["李委員昆澤：你們對於這種資料庫的建立有沒有相對的運用？來，說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，這個就是碳排係數，所以我們有的是從水利署來的，有的是從原廠商來的，那麼這些碳排係數就是單項的東西每單元的碳排放量相當當量，將來夠多的時候，每個機關在設計的時候，就可以運用這個來計算，我們再加上一個估算系統，就好像我們在計算整個建築、整個工程的成本費用一樣，輸入那個系統就可以估算整個碳排總量，所以這兩個工具要建置完成。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類、依照功能性及排放量來製作清單，更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告。","最後一個問題，我請教主委，我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的原料？8月29號環境部預告碳費的三子法，針對碳排放要進行收費，環境部大概是希望能夠在10月底之前碳費三子法都能夠順利通過，我們預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元，2030年會再調升到1,200元到1,800。依據統計，營造的原料成本約占房價的15%到35%，其中鋼鐵、金屬這些建築的組件大概占了21%，水泥及其製品占了大概10%。營造業公開地表示，建築成本會增加10%以上。工程會針對碳費開徵對工程原料價格的影響，有沒有進行試算？有沒有進行相關的規劃？來，說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會每個月都會有相關的會報，針對建築材料，包括砂石、水泥、鋼筋的價格都有一定的掌控，所以如果因為徵收碳費，這些相關製品有不合理的調漲，我想工程會會依職權來協調，希望不至於因為碳費的收取，有些原料做比較不合理的漲價。本來追求淨零，各相關產業就要提早做準備，除了收費之外，應該也有一些碳的交易，或者是工程類別、建築，它可以進行一些比方說種樹等等方式，做碳匯這樣的中和，我想可以各種方式來完成淨零的目標，但不至於讓整個工程的成本大幅上漲。"],["李委員昆澤：這點非常重要，請主委加強相關的督促。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員質詢。","接下來邀請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}}