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681.785, \"end\": 682.006, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 682.006, \"end\": 682.166, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 682.166, \"end\": 682.266, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 682.266, \"end\": 682.286, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 685.663, \"end\": 711.543, \"text\": \"自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 685.663, \"end\": 685.763, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 685.763, \"end\": 686.344, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 686.344, \"end\": 686.504, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 686.504, \"end\": 686.684, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 686.684, \"end\": 686.864, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 686.864, 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\"主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 714.124, \"end\": 714.285, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 714.285, \"end\": 714.645, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 714.645, \"end\": 715.145, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 715.145, \"end\": 715.245, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 715.245, \"end\": 715.345, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 715.345, \"end\": 715.485, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 715.485, \"end\": 715.706, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 715.706, \"end\": 715.966, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 715.966, \"end\": 716.046, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 716.046, \"end\": 716.206, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"知\", 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\"start\": 734.739, \"end\": 734.919, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 734.919, \"end\": 735.059, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 735.059, \"end\": 735.239, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 735.239, \"end\": 735.439, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"歉\", \"start\": 735.439, \"end\": 737.501, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 737.501, \"end\": 737.781, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 737.781, \"end\": 738.061, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 738.061, \"end\": 738.421, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 738.421, \"end\": 738.541, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 738.541, \"end\": 739.642, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 739.642, \"end\": 739.802, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 739.802, \"end\": 739.922, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 739.922, \"end\": 740.022, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 740.022, \"end\": 740.143, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 740.143, \"end\": 740.183, \"score\": 0.568}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 740.183, \"end\": 740.363, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 740.363, \"end\": 741.203, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 741.203, \"end\": 741.343, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 741.343, \"end\": 741.523, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 741.523, \"end\": 741.644, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 741.644, \"end\": 741.804, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 741.804, \"end\": 741.964, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"歉\", \"start\": 741.964, \"end\": 741.984, \"score\": 0.836}]}, {\"start\": 742.784, \"end\": 761.497, \"text\": \"謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 742.784, \"end\": 742.965, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 742.965, \"end\": 743.765, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 743.765, \"end\": 743.885, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 743.885, \"end\": 744.045, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 744.045, \"end\": 744.245, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 744.245, \"end\": 744.506, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 744.506, \"end\": 744.726, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 744.726, \"end\": 745.026, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"蠻\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 745.026, \"end\": 745.386, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"誠\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 745.386, \"end\": 745.546, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 745.546, \"end\": 746.047, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 746.047, 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901.94, \"end\": 901.96, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 901.96, \"end\": 901.98, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 901.98, \"end\": 902.0, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 902.0, \"end\": 902.02, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 920.806, \"end\": 921.126, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 921.126, \"end\": 921.146, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 921.146, \"end\": 921.166, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 921.166, \"end\": 921.186, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 921.186, \"end\": 921.227, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 921.227, \"end\": 921.247, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,354 --> 00:00:07,634\n范委員好\n\n2\n00:00:20,007 --> 00:00:45,440\n主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的\n\n3\n00:00:46,460 --> 00:01:06,581\n那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌,你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才,我們要投入研發,所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對...\n\n4\n00:01:08,202 --> 00:01:37,228\n你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢\n\n5\n00:01:38,001 --> 00:02:01,435\n沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生…主委講得非常好所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許它之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你\n\n6\n00:02:04,497 --> 00:02:04,958\n同意?\n\n7\n00:02:04,958 --> 00:02:05,018\n同意\n\n8\n00:02:19,434 --> 00:02:19,454\n范雲\n\n9\n00:02:36,110 --> 00:02:51,301\n主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎\n\n10\n00:02:54,992 --> 00:03:16,587\n主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多科您是申請哪一科?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一科就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?\n\n11\n00:03:18,088 --> 00:03:32,655\n應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程數掉到自然數甚至到人文數對您的影響會是什麼\n\n12\n00:03:36,415 --> 00:04:03,633\n你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛\n\n13\n00:04:04,734 --> 00:04:31,002\n我瞭解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞就是說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組\n\n14\n00:04:33,303 --> 00:04:55,575\n有部分真的是叫肢解了請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究的第三個眾多中鋼計畫面臨刪減中鋼計畫主委應該很了解中成鋼要計畫\n\n15\n00:05:02,119 --> 00:05:18,651\n他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證立例你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是11這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續第二個國土空間綱要也被影響\n\n16\n00:05:27,897 --> 00:05:42,977\n這些所謂忠誠綱要加起來的經費是4.577億他涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生\n\n17\n00:05:43,778 --> 00:06:06,732\n還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點那你們主張經費刪減然後\n\n18\n00:06:09,714 --> 00:06:25,852\n本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究\n\n19\n00:06:26,912 --> 00:06:40,582\n有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到\n\n20\n00:06:48,388 --> 00:07:03,743\n這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關\n\n21\n00:07:26,294 --> 00:07:50,714\n第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人\n\n22\n00:07:52,075 --> 00:08:18,308\n裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃\n\n23\n00:08:21,192 --> 00:08:48,096\n可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有\n\n24\n00:08:49,860 --> 00:08:54,776\n主委是否知情?有人想要左手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?\n\n25\n00:08:57,683 --> 00:09:25,302\n市長有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效他的意思就是說要調整嗎您知情他要調整沒有要調整第一件事就是要進行所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是\n\n26\n00:09:26,222 --> 00:09:45,722\n不是效率不夠,是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效。那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效,就是他們需要增進研究成效?所有學們都要啊。所以所有的都要?但是自然處他的業務,這是他們的業務。所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行?\n\n27\n00:09:47,715 --> 00:10:03,046\n我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長\n\n28\n00:10:08,171 --> 00:10:21,486\n報告委員我們處長也是很用心他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事我當然也是覺得非常遺憾\n\n29\n00:10:21,946 --> 00:10:22,006\n委員會主席\n\n30\n00:10:36,903 --> 00:10:54,032\n您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉\n\n31\n00:11:07,847 --> 00:11:22,286\n這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦那您就是覺得他這樣講不對但是您知悉是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講那他是怎麼樣講?我提到\n\n32\n00:11:25,663 --> 00:11:51,543\n自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎\n\n33\n00:11:54,124 --> 00:12:21,984\n主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉\n\n34\n00:12:22,784 --> 00:12:41,497\n謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情\n\n35\n00:12:42,518 --> 00:13:09,410\n就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的就是說你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計劃如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好\n\n36\n00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:31,337\n謝謝委員不是因為說哪個人個人不喜歡看不懂覺得沒貢獻人家四五年的努力本來預期還有一個四年月剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備兩年而且是競爭型的涉及到多少人的研究前途甚至有碩士生博士生的論文題目是同意吧同意就是然後那所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔\n\n37\n00:13:36,298 --> 00:14:03,788\n提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣合並教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的\n\n38\n00:14:04,588 --> 00:14:06,849\n第3個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說\n\n39\n00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:28,300\n范雲\n\n40\n00:14:43,137 --> 00:14:43,157\n謝謝委員\n\n41\n00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:02,020\n主委,可以答應嗎?答應\n\n42\n00:15:20,806 --> 00:15:21,247\n謝謝吳主委請主委回座\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7354\t7634\t范委員好\n20007\t45440\t主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的\n46460\t66581\t那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌,你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才,我們要投入研發,所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對...\n68202\t97228\t你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢\n98001\t121435\t沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生…主委講得非常好所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許它之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你\n124497\t124958\t同意?\n124958\t125018\t同意\n139434\t139454\t范雲\n156110\t171301\t主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎\n174992\t196587\t主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多科您是申請哪一科?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一科就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?\n198088\t212655\t應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程數掉到自然數甚至到人文數對您的影響會是什麼\n216415\t243633\t你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛\n244734\t271002\t我瞭解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞就是說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組\n273303\t295575\t有部分真的是叫肢解了請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究的第三個眾多中鋼計畫面臨刪減中鋼計畫主委應該很了解中成鋼要計畫\n302119\t318651\t他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證立例你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是11這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續第二個國土空間綱要也被影響\n327897\t342977\t這些所謂忠誠綱要加起來的經費是4.577億他涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生\n343778\t366732\t還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點那你們主張經費刪減然後\n369714\t385852\t本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究\n386912\t400582\t有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到\n408388\t423743\t這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關\n424684\t445674\t﹏﹏﹏\n446294\t470714\t第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人\n472075\t498308\t裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃\n501192\t528096\t可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有\n529860\t534776\t主委是否知情?有人想要左手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?\n537683\t565302\t市長有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效他的意思就是說要調整嗎您知情他要調整沒有要調整第一件事就是要進行所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是\n566222\t585722\t不是效率不夠,是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效。那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效,就是他們需要增進研究成效?所有學們都要啊。所以所有的都要?但是自然處他的業務,這是他們的業務。所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行?\n587715\t603046\t我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長\n608171\t621486\t報告委員我們處長也是很用心他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事我當然也是覺得非常遺憾\n621946\t622006\t委員會主席\n636903\t654032\t您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉\n667847\t682286\t這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦那您就是覺得他這樣講不對但是您知悉是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講那他是怎麼樣講?我提到\n685663\t711543\t自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎\n714124\t741984\t主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉\n742784\t761497\t謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情\n762518\t789410\t就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的就是說你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計劃如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好\n789770\t811337\t謝謝委員不是因為說哪個人個人不喜歡看不懂覺得沒貢獻人家四五年的努力本來預期還有一個四年月剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備兩年而且是競爭型的涉及到多少人的研究前途甚至有碩士生博士生的論文題目是同意吧同意就是然後那所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔\n816298\t843788\t提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣合並教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的\n844588\t846849\t第3個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說\n868280\t868300\t范雲\n883137\t883157\t謝謝委員\n901860\t902020\t主委,可以答應嗎?答應\n920806\t921247\t謝謝吳主委 請主委回座\n","txt":"范委員好\n主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的\n那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌,你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才,我們要投入研發,所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對...\n你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢\n沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生…主委講得非常好所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許它之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你\n同意?\n同意\n范雲\n主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎\n主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多科您是申請哪一科?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一科就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?\n應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程數掉到自然數甚至到人文數對您的影響會是什麼\n你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛\n我瞭解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞就是說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組\n有部分真的是叫肢解了請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究的第三個眾多中鋼計畫面臨刪減中鋼計畫主委應該很了解中成鋼要計畫\n他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證立例你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是11這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續第二個國土空間綱要也被影響\n這些所謂忠誠綱要加起來的經費是4.577億他涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生\n還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點那你們主張經費刪減然後\n本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究\n有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到\n這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關\n﹏﹏﹏\n第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人\n裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃\n可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有\n主委是否知情?有人想要左手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?\n市長有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效他的意思就是說要調整嗎您知情他要調整沒有要調整第一件事就是要進行所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是\n不是效率不夠,是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效。那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效,就是他們需要增進研究成效?所有學們都要啊。所以所有的都要?但是自然處他的業務,這是他們的業務。所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行?\n我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長\n報告委員我們處長也是很用心他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事我當然也是覺得非常遺憾\n委員會主席\n您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉\n這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦那您就是覺得他這樣講不對但是您知悉是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講那他是怎麼樣講?我提到\n自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎\n主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉\n謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情\n就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的就是說你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計劃如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好\n謝謝委員不是因為說哪個人個人不喜歡看不懂覺得沒貢獻人家四五年的努力本來預期還有一個四年月剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備兩年而且是競爭型的涉及到多少人的研究前途甚至有碩士生博士生的論文題目是同意吧同意就是然後那所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔\n提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣合並教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的\n第3個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說\n范雲\n謝謝委員\n主委,可以答應嗎?答應\n謝謝吳主委 請主委回座\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.354 --> 00:07.634\n范委員好\n\n00:20.007 --> 00:45.440\n主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的\n\n00:46.460 --> 01:06.581\n那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌,你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才,我們要投入研發,所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對...\n\n01:08.202 --> 01:37.228\n你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢\n\n01:38.001 --> 02:01.435\n沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生…主委講得非常好所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許它之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你\n\n02:04.497 --> 02:04.958\n同意?\n\n02:04.958 --> 02:05.018\n同意\n\n02:19.434 --> 02:19.454\n范雲\n\n02:36.110 --> 02:51.301\n主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎\n\n02:54.992 --> 03:16.587\n主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多科您是申請哪一科?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一科就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?\n\n03:18.088 --> 03:32.655\n應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程數掉到自然數甚至到人文數對您的影響會是什麼\n\n03:36.415 --> 04:03.633\n你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛\n\n04:04.734 --> 04:31.002\n我瞭解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞就是說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組\n\n04:33.303 --> 04:55.575\n有部分真的是叫肢解了請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究的第三個眾多中鋼計畫面臨刪減中鋼計畫主委應該很了解中成鋼要計畫\n\n05:02.119 --> 05:18.651\n他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證立例你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是11這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續第二個國土空間綱要也被影響\n\n05:27.897 --> 05:42.977\n這些所謂忠誠綱要加起來的經費是4.577億他涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生\n\n05:43.778 --> 06:06.732\n還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點那你們主張經費刪減然後\n\n06:09.714 --> 06:25.852\n本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究\n\n06:26.912 --> 06:40.582\n有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到\n\n06:48.388 --> 07:03.743\n這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關\n\n07:26.294 --> 07:50.714\n第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人\n\n07:52.075 --> 08:18.308\n裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃\n\n08:21.192 --> 08:48.096\n可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有\n\n08:49.860 --> 08:54.776\n主委是否知情?有人想要左手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?\n\n08:57.683 --> 09:25.302\n市長有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效他的意思就是說要調整嗎您知情他要調整沒有要調整第一件事就是要進行所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是\n\n09:26.222 --> 09:45.722\n不是效率不夠,是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效。那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效,就是他們需要增進研究成效?所有學們都要啊。所以所有的都要?但是自然處他的業務,這是他們的業務。所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行?\n\n09:47.715 --> 10:03.046\n我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長\n\n10:08.171 --> 10:21.486\n報告委員我們處長也是很用心他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事我當然也是覺得非常遺憾\n\n10:21.946 --> 10:22.006\n委員會主席\n\n10:36.903 --> 10:54.032\n您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉\n\n11:07.847 --> 11:22.286\n這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦那您就是覺得他這樣講不對但是您知悉是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講那他是怎麼樣講?我提到\n\n11:25.663 --> 11:51.543\n自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎\n\n11:54.124 --> 12:21.984\n主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉\n\n12:22.784 --> 12:41.497\n謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情\n\n12:42.518 --> 13:09.410\n就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的就是說你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計劃如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好\n\n13:09.770 --> 13:31.337\n謝謝委員不是因為說哪個人個人不喜歡看不懂覺得沒貢獻人家四五年的努力本來預期還有一個四年月剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備兩年而且是競爭型的涉及到多少人的研究前途甚至有碩士生博士生的論文題目是同意吧同意就是然後那所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔\n\n13:36.298 --> 14:03.788\n提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣合並教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的\n\n14:04.588 --> 14:06.849\n第3個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說\n\n14:28.280 --> 14:28.300\n范雲\n\n14:43.137 --> 14:43.157\n謝謝委員\n\n15:01.860 --> 15:02.020\n主委,可以答應嗎?答應\n\n15:20.806 --> 15:21.247\n謝謝吳主委請主委回座\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.354,"end":7.634,"text":"范委員好"},{"start":20.007,"end":45.44,"text":"主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的"},{"start":46.46,"end":66.581,"text":"那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌,你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才,我們要投入研發,所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對..."},{"start":68.202,"end":97.228,"text":"你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢"},{"start":98.001,"end":121.435,"text":"沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生…主委講得非常好所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許它之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你"},{"start":124.497,"end":124.958,"text":"同意?"},{"start":124.958,"end":125.018,"text":"同意"},{"start":139.434,"end":139.454,"text":"范雲"},{"start":156.11,"end":171.301,"text":"主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎"},{"start":174.992,"end":196.587,"text":"主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多科您是申請哪一科?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一科就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?"},{"start":198.088,"end":212.655,"text":"應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程數掉到自然數甚至到人文數對您的影響會是什麼"},{"start":216.415,"end":243.633,"text":"你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛"},{"start":244.734,"end":271.002,"text":"我瞭解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞就是說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組"},{"start":273.303,"end":295.575,"text":"有部分真的是叫肢解了請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究的第三個眾多中鋼計畫面臨刪減中鋼計畫主委應該很了解中成鋼要計畫"},{"start":302.119,"end":318.651,"text":"他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證立例你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是11這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續第二個國土空間綱要也被影響"},{"start":327.897,"end":342.977,"text":"這些所謂忠誠綱要加起來的經費是4.577億他涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生"},{"start":343.778,"end":366.732,"text":"還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點那你們主張經費刪減然後"},{"start":369.714,"end":385.852,"text":"本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究"},{"start":386.912,"end":400.582,"text":"有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到"},{"start":408.388,"end":423.743,"text":"這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關"},{"start":424.684,"end":445.674,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":446.294,"end":470.714,"text":"第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人"},{"start":472.075,"end":498.308,"text":"裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃"},{"start":501.192,"end":528.096,"text":"可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有"},{"start":529.86,"end":534.776,"text":"主委是否知情?有人想要左手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?"},{"start":537.683,"end":565.302,"text":"市長有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效他的意思就是說要調整嗎您知情他要調整沒有要調整第一件事就是要進行所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是"},{"start":566.222,"end":585.722,"text":"不是效率不夠,是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效。那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效,就是他們需要增進研究成效?所有學們都要啊。所以所有的都要?但是自然處他的業務,這是他們的業務。所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行?"},{"start":587.715,"end":603.046,"text":"我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長"},{"start":608.171,"end":621.486,"text":"報告委員我們處長也是很用心他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事我當然也是覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":621.946,"end":622.006,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":636.903,"end":654.032,"text":"您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉"},{"start":667.847,"end":682.286,"text":"這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦那您就是覺得他這樣講不對但是您知悉是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講那他是怎麼樣講?我提到"},{"start":685.663,"end":711.543,"text":"自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎"},{"start":714.124,"end":741.984,"text":"主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉"},{"start":742.784,"end":761.497,"text":"謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情"},{"start":762.518,"end":789.41,"text":"就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的就是說你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計劃如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好"},{"start":789.77,"end":811.337,"text":"謝謝委員不是因為說哪個人個人不喜歡看不懂覺得沒貢獻人家四五年的努力本來預期還有一個四年月剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備兩年而且是競爭型的涉及到多少人的研究前途甚至有碩士生博士生的論文題目是同意吧同意就是然後那所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔"},{"start":816.298,"end":843.788,"text":"提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣合並教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的"},{"start":844.588,"end":846.849,"text":"第3個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說"},{"start":868.28,"end":868.3,"text":"范雲"},{"start":883.137,"end":883.157,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":901.86,"end":902.02,"text":"主委,可以答應嗎?答應"},{"start":920.806,"end":921.247,"text":"謝謝吳主委 請主委回座"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:15:31 - 10:31:15","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":154960,"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時15分）謝謝代理主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。剛葉元之委員說我要罵你，我沒有要罵你，我要釐清一些事情，今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通，我想了很久，永續科研有雙重意義，當然您也知道最近的學門爭議，可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實應該是要永續的。可不可以請問主委，如果要請您一句話講國科會的職掌，你會怎麼講？國科會的職掌是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的任務是要協助國家來培養科研的人才，為了要培養人才，我們要投入研發，所以我們會編科技預算，這個研發的成果要……"],["范委員雲：我剛說一句話，你講了很多句話了。我們回來看國科會的組織法第一條就有講到職掌，行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃、協調、審議、資源分配等業務，特設國家科學及技術委員會，您有沒有覺得它很有意思，它把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面，它為什麼不先放技術研究及應用，再放科學發展呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有科學發展去探討，前瞻的知識就不可能產生……"],["范委員雲：主委講得非常好，所以科學發展是長期的基礎，有時候不一定有市場性，表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻，可是它之後也許就會有貢獻了，所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查，你直接就認為前瞻跟各部會配合的研究就是最重要，甚至刪減基礎研究、重要的研究調查的話，其實很可能會是短多長空，這樣您同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["范委員雲：好，同意的話我們就有共識了。我想今天國科會三大學門調整風波，大家擔心的其實是更長期的問題，不只是表面上這個風波，風波剛剛大家都講過了，就是短短的兩三天內，主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難，尤其是衝上國科會，國科會是他研究資源的來源，沒有人想得罪國科會，主委過去有連署過挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有……"],["范委員雲：沒有嘛？所以你就知道這個難度有多高了，主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費？像我是人文處。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是工程處。"],["范委員雲：好，您是工程處，工程處有好多科，您是申請哪一科？"],["吳主任委員誠文：微電子。"],["范委員雲：好，如果今天有人說不大了解你們那一科到底在做什麼，應該把它放到自然處跟人文處拆一拆，你會不會覺得滿生氣的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該要先經過討論沒錯。"],["范委員雲：對，一定要經過討論嘛！而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛？對不對？這個對您的影響是什麼？把你的研究領域從工程處調到自然處，甚至到人文處，對您的影響會是什麼？你的社群就……"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能就是審查的人員……"],["范委員雲：審查的人就不一樣嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，通常會不一樣。"],["范委員雲：審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事，完全無法預測，譬如說您今天在做的……您是做電機的嘛？相關的研究，審查人員完全換了，甚至你投入十年的研究就拿不到經費了，這不是學者，甚至跟他的薪水無關，他的研究經費就受到很大的影響，所以茲事體大嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我了解他們的擔心。"],["范委員雲：看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步，我綜合這麼多陳情人的資訊，當然大家都有看到新聞了，我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的、不同的朋友，包含涉及這3個跨領域的跟不涉及的，我覺得有四大問題，第一個是3個跨領域學門面臨支解與重組，","有的部分真的是叫支解，請他們拆到自然科，甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的，我想細節我們就不講了。第二個，資源投入被緊縮，就是您剛剛講的預算增加，很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去，其實不是歸純學術研究的。第三個，眾多中綱計畫面臨刪減，中綱計畫主委應該很了解，中程綱要計畫是競爭型的，而且要準備個二、三年才能提出，學者們舉證歷歷，你們已經在進行的，例如第一個航向藍海，這是海洋研究的，原本是111年到114年的經費，現在115年可能無法延續；第二個，國土空間綱要也被影響，這些所謂中程綱要加起來的經費是4.577億，它涉及到下面多少研究助理，多少人一旦因為你們沒有給經費，這些人就是要回家吃自己，或者是必須要找新的主題，甚至研究生。還有，LTSER長期社會生態研究，這個也是基礎研究，這個表面上一下子看不到市場性，可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助，原本我們聽到的就是彰化站跟翡翠站好不容易建立了社會生態研究的點，你們主張經費刪減，本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站，據說你們已經主張不用討論了，甚至處長說出不知道學者為什麼要做這樣的研究，有沒有這樣事情，你們待會再說。所以中綱計畫面臨刪減，甚至不只是這三個領域的，還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案，這個一年其實用的錢不多，1.5億，我看去（112）年度有1,722個年輕學者申請，只有888人拿到，這個非常重要，因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費，他不去申請國外，拿到博士學位回來了，結果呢，據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢？他很優秀就很優秀，跟年齡無關。有關這個部分，你也知道我們臺灣的薪資比起東亞很多國家，然後研究經費也不確定，所以這個長程的東西，甚至一個已經在臺灣的年輕學者他放棄國外的話，因為你們不再補助這個部分，茲事體大啊！第四個，大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計畫經費刪減增加，而是應該要有嚴謹的評估，有清楚的報告，讓大家知道為什麼，這中間有一個討論過程，所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點。","我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署在3天之內就有650人參加，裡面有4位院士、2位校長，我也在9月16日看到這個事情，我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資，因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費、看得懂你們在做什麼的。我去索資了，你們回我的第一份資料提到「本會業於9月16日新聞稿中澄清，並無更動組織或學門之規劃」，可是我後來又再次索資，你們第二份資料就變了，就說沒有正式會議。請問到底有沒有會議？是有會議但不正式，還是你第一份資料所講的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有會議，根本沒有會議。"],["范委員雲：沒有會議？完全沒有會議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：完全沒有，所以……"],["范委員雲：完全沒有會議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們第一時間澄清……"],["范委員雲：好，等一下！你說完全沒有會議，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["范委員雲：正式、非正式會議都沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["范委員雲：好，請問主委是否知情，有人想要著手規劃這件事情？您是否知情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：自然處處長是有跟我討論，是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠……"],["范委員雲：所以您知情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我們討論的是怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門的研究成效。"],["范委員雲：所以就是您知情嘛！他的意思就是要調整嘛，您知情他要調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有要調整，沒有要調整……"],["范委員雲：他沒說要調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是第一件事就是進行……"],["范委員雲：好，我不是法官，所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是效率不夠，是說我們怎麼樣協助這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效……"],["范委員雲：那為什麼其他的社會學門不需要增進研究成效，就是他們需要增進研究成效？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所有學門都要啊！但是……"],["范委員雲：所以所有的都要？"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是自然處的業務，這是他們的業務。"],["范委員雲：所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有提醒我們要進行溝通……"],["范委員雲：你有提醒要進行溝通，所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是沒有接受，因為還沒有進行溝通，連署就出現了，所以我們只好……"],["范委員雲：還沒有進行溝通，所以這樣子聽起來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以並沒有決策，報告委員……"],["范委員雲：是自然處長一個人腦袋想的，他沒有跟任何人開過會！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，報告委員，我們處長也是很用心啦，他是要協助，他其實並沒有任何的決策，還沒有對外宣布的時候就出現了這個，我當然也是覺得非常遺憾。"],["范委員雲：因為我時間有限，處長……"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有剛剛委員提到的，其實我們的經費今年4.8億，明年已經增加到5.2億。"],["范委員雲：經費的事我會再跟您索資，我們再講清楚。請問主委，您知不知悉我們的自然處長曾經講了這樣的話，有白紙黑字寫「有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門」。您知悉還是不知悉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個應該不是這樣講吧？"],["范委員雲：有白紙黑字，事後我可以給你看。您知悉還是不知悉？就只有一種嘛，知悉還是不知悉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我覺得不是這樣講啦……"],["范委員雲：好啦，您就是覺得他這樣講不對，但是您知悉，這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他不是這樣講，他不是這樣講！"],["范委員雲：那他是怎麼樣講？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我提到，自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進……"],["范委員雲：那您知不知悉他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西？這是一個反彈的根源啦，今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域，聽到「性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之性別研究」的話，性別研究學者一定是跳腳，你把別人講成二流學者耶！這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我……"],["范委員雲：主委，您剛剛一直都不願說你有知悉，那請您去查一下，如果講這樣的話，至少我不知道是誰講的，如果是自然處長講的，他是不是應該跟大家道歉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果大家認為有這種情形，我就代表國科會跟大家道歉，國科會不會有這樣的立場，如果有一些口誤，我跟大家道歉。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝主委，我想您今天這樣算滿有誠意的，如果真的有講過這樣的話，主委願意跟大家道歉，就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學門……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，不會這樣。"],["范委員雲：是在別的領域拿不到經費，然後轉到這邊來申請。","我今天要跟主委講的事情，就是因為有這麼多的東西，所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通，主標是永續科研，我想對於我剛剛講到的，你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告，包含所有的中長期計畫，您不是不能夠調整，不是不能刪減，不是不能增加，而是應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：不是哪個個人不喜歡、看不懂、覺得沒貢獻，人家四、五年的努力，本來預期還有一個四年，因為剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備二年，而且是競爭型的，這涉及到多少人的研究前途，甚至有碩士生、博士生的論文題目，這您同意吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意。"],["范委員雲：所以決策過程的部分要給我檢討報告。","第二個，一個月內提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP，當然，我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主，但是今天一個大學要裁撤一個系所或合併，教育部都有規定SOP，要幾場溝通會、幾場座談會，就是應該要有一個，而且學術社群某種程度是更平等，是互審的制度，對不對？學門召集人也都是有聲望的，是推選出來的，所以是不是能夠針對學門調整應有的、尊重學界溝通的SOP的程序，是不是可以給我？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：讓大家相信不會再有這樣的事。","第三個，你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性，我想大家的研究應該二、三年是最短嘛，對不對？四、五年到十年的，有很多都是這樣長程的規劃，如果你的政策與預算沒有連貫性，我想跟學界的互信基礎就已經失去了，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：針對這個部分，我認為第二個，未來相關學門調整的民主程序是什麼，建議你們用問卷詢問那650位連署的學者，因為學者都是有email的，你們都可以找得到，讓他感受到國科會的誠意，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：那他們有反彈，一定有一套理想的方式，絕對不是說學科、學門絕對不能調整，好不好？那怎麼樣是好的做法，請您展現誠意，諮詢這650位連署的學者，至少用一個數位問卷很容易執行，主委可以答應嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：答應。"],["范委員雲：好。我也是出身自學界，今天絕對不是要修理主委或任何人，我想我們出身學界的，對於學界的議題有責任，至少我了解國科會的計畫申請是怎麼回事，所以我必須要說清楚。以上，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳主委，請主委回座。接下來請召委范雲接續主持會議。"],["主席（范委員雲）：謝謝吳沛憶委員代主席。再來，請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}}