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\"513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 523.735, \"end\": 523.895, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 523.895, \"end\": 524.075, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 524.075, \"end\": 524.275, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 524.275, \"end\": 525.076, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 525.076, \"end\": 525.256, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 525.256, \"end\": 525.456, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 525.456, \"end\": 525.656, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 525.656, \"end\": 525.816, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 525.816, \"end\": 526.517, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 526.517, \"end\": 526.677, \"score\": 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\"end\": 547.251, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 547.251, \"end\": 547.651, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 547.651, \"end\": 547.891, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 547.891, \"end\": 548.091, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 548.091, \"end\": 548.111, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 549.417, \"end\": 569.35, \"text\": \"要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 549.417, \"end\": 549.697, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 549.697, \"end\": 549.917, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 549.917, \"end\": 550.438, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 550.438, \"end\": 550.738, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 550.738, \"end\": 550.938, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 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562.426, \"end\": 562.706, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 562.706, \"end\": 562.946, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 562.946, \"end\": 563.346, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 563.346, \"end\": 563.546, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 563.546, \"end\": 564.407, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 564.407, \"end\": 564.507, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 564.507, \"end\": 564.627, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 564.627, \"end\": 564.967, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 564.967, \"end\": 565.147, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 565.147, \"end\": 565.868, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 565.868, \"end\": 566.508, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 566.508, \"end\": 566.868, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 566.868, \"end\": 567.049, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 567.049, \"end\": 567.249, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 567.249, \"end\": 567.509, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 567.509, \"end\": 567.689, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 567.689, \"end\": 567.849, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 567.849, \"end\": 568.65, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 568.65, \"end\": 568.97, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 568.97, \"end\": 569.19, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 569.19, \"end\": 569.33, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 569.33, \"end\": 569.35, \"score\": 0.476}, {\"word\": \"話\"}]}, {\"start\": 571.857, \"end\": 589.715, \"text\": \"那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據\", \"words\": 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[{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 591.656, \"end\": 591.977, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 591.977, \"end\": 592.437, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 592.437, \"end\": 592.677, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 592.677, \"end\": 592.937, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 592.937, \"end\": 593.117, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 593.117, \"end\": 593.318, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 593.318, \"end\": 593.758, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 593.758, \"end\": 594.899, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 594.899, \"end\": 595.019, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 595.019, \"end\": 595.459, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 595.459, \"end\": 595.479, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 595.479, \"end\": 595.879, 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00:01:00,256\n因為呢我們捷運現在臺中捷運只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的救\n\n3\n00:01:01,477 --> 00:01:14,271\n現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方\n\n4\n00:01:20,297 --> 00:01:20,598\n好那麼那一天\n\n5\n00:01:39,497 --> 00:01:58,442\n去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點\n\n6\n00:02:09,405 --> 00:02:29,005\n這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題\n\n7\n00:02:30,748 --> 00:02:55,882\n冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說\n\n8\n00:02:57,023 --> 00:03:17,344\n藉著中央跟專家學者今天可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天很多專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程\n\n9\n00:03:20,486 --> 00:03:43,658\n臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的那經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正那麼會\n\n10\n00:03:45,359 --> 00:04:03,771\n整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在就在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者\n\n11\n00:04:06,032 --> 00:04:06,172\n主席\n\n12\n00:04:23,983 --> 00:04:28,807\n關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過\n\n13\n00:04:43,038 --> 00:05:09,874\n就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容\n\n14\n00:05:10,794 --> 00:05:34,205\n短期工具指引看牌講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好\n\n15\n00:05:34,745 --> 00:06:00,292\n主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳\n\n16\n00:06:08,570 --> 00:06:31,741\n我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統\n\n17\n00:06:33,223 --> 00:06:52,053\n那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎\n\n18\n00:06:56,277 --> 00:07:16,750\n未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準\n\n19\n00:07:17,971 --> 00:07:29,820\n不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來\n\n20\n00:07:33,203 --> 00:07:58,352\n那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報\n\n21\n00:08:00,336 --> 00:08:01,857\n那你有建議過環境部了嗎?\n\n22\n00:08:16,997 --> 00:08:35,265\n因為環境部目前的發資訊還不多啦環境部裡面的收集的係數還不多主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上一頁你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證\n\n23\n00:08:43,735 --> 00:09:08,111\n513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子\n\n24\n00:09:09,417 --> 00:09:29,350\n要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話\n\n25\n00:09:31,857 --> 00:09:49,715\n那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據\n\n26\n00:09:51,656 --> 00:10:07,247\n這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少\n\n27\n00:10:08,613 --> 00:10:08,974\n我們看碳排\n\n28\n00:10:27,150 --> 00:10:48,579\n大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶對那我們這個公共工程當然量很大了但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料\n\n29\n00:10:49,259 --> 00:10:57,207\n可是問題是主委你這個要講清楚剛剛很多委員都在關心這一點就是什麼為什麼大家要關心這個因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算這個要由環境部決定\n\n30\n00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:19,244\n所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定\n\n31\n00:11:23,615 --> 00:11:23,755\n環境部\n\n32\n00:11:46,295 --> 00:12:04,284\n環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取\n\n33\n00:12:15,654 --> 00:12:36,182\n主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦齁那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢\n\n34\n00:12:37,603 --> 00:12:54,643\n但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦主委\n\n35\n00:12:59,779 --> 00:13:26,398\n我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定阿阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎\n\n36\n00:13:32,418 --> 00:13:44,304\n公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦\n\n37\n00:13:45,100 --> 00:14:11,541\n環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準\n\n38\n00:14:12,882 --> 00:14:27,527\n會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證\n\n39\n00:14:29,127 --> 00:14:50,594\n到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你又要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題\n\n40\n00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:54,877\n何欣純委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5251\t11355\t謝謝昭緯我們請我們政委也是我們主委邀請我們陳金德主委委員長早主委長首先先要感謝你這個非常積極的就到台中去視察那希望能夠幫助台中的這個捷運這個工程那因為那一天大家都要選昭緯沒有辦法去但是我還是很感謝\n31328\t60256\t因為呢我們捷運現在臺中捷運只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的救\n61477\t74271\t現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方\n80297\t80598\t好 那麼那一天\n99497\t118442\t去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點\n129405\t149005\t這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題\n150748\t175882\t冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說\n177023\t197344\t藉著中央跟專家學者今天可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天很多專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程\n200486\t223658\t臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的那經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正那麼會\n225359\t243771\t整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在就在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者\n246032\t246172\t主席\n263983\t268807\t關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過\n283038\t309874\t就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容\n310794\t334205\t短期工具指引看牌講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好\n334745\t360292\t主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳\n368570\t391741\t我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統\n393223\t412053\t那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎\n416277\t436750\t未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準\n437971\t449820\t不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來\n453203\t478352\t那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報\n480336\t481857\t那你有建議過環境部了嗎?\n496997\t515265\t因為環境部目前的發資訊還不多啦環境部裡面的收集的係數還不多主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上一頁你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證\n523735\t548111\t513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子\n549417\t569350\t要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話\n571857\t589715\t那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據\n591656\t607247\t這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少\n608613\t608974\t我們看碳排\n627150\t648579\t大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶對那我們這個公共工程當然量很大了但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料\n649259\t657207\t可是問題是主委你這個要講清楚剛剛很多委員都在關心這一點就是什麼為什麼大家要關心這個因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算這個要由環境部決定\n662470\t679244\t所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定\n683615\t683755\t環境部\n706295\t724284\t環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取\n735654\t756182\t主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦齁那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢\n757603\t774643\t但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦 主委\n779779\t806398\t我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定阿阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎\n812418\t824304\t公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦\n825100\t851541\t環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準\n852882\t867527\t會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證\n869127\t890594\t到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你又要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題\n893956\t894877\t何欣純委員質詢\n","txt":"謝謝昭緯我們請我們政委也是我們主委邀請我們陳金德主委委員長早主委長首先先要感謝你這個非常積極的就到台中去視察那希望能夠幫助台中的這個捷運這個工程那因為那一天大家都要選昭緯沒有辦法去但是我還是很感謝\n因為呢我們捷運現在臺中捷運只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的救\n現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方\n好 那麼那一天\n去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點\n這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題\n冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說\n藉著中央跟專家學者今天可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天很多專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程\n臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的那經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正那麼會\n整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在就在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者\n主席\n關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過\n就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容\n短期工具指引看牌講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好\n主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳\n我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統\n那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎\n未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準\n不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來\n那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報\n那你有建議過環境部了嗎?\n因為環境部目前的發資訊還不多啦環境部裡面的收集的係數還不多主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上一頁你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證\n513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子\n要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話\n那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據\n這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少\n我們看碳排\n大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶對那我們這個公共工程當然量很大了但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料\n可是問題是主委你這個要講清楚剛剛很多委員都在關心這一點就是什麼為什麼大家要關心這個因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算這個要由環境部決定\n所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定\n環境部\n環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取\n主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦齁那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢\n但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦 主委\n我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定阿阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎\n公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦\n環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準\n會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證\n到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你又要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題\n何欣純委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.251 --> 00:11.355\n謝謝昭緯我們請我們政委也是我們主委邀請我們陳金德主委委員長早主委長首先先要感謝你這個非常積極的就到台中去視察那希望能夠幫助台中的這個捷運這個工程那因為那一天大家都要選昭緯沒有辦法去但是我還是很感謝\n\n00:31.328 --> 01:00.256\n因為呢我們捷運現在臺中捷運只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的救\n\n01:01.477 --> 01:14.271\n現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方\n\n01:20.297 --> 01:20.598\n好那麼那一天\n\n01:39.497 --> 01:58.442\n去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點\n\n02:09.405 --> 02:29.005\n這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題\n\n02:30.748 --> 02:55.882\n冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說\n\n02:57.023 --> 03:17.344\n藉著中央跟專家學者今天可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天很多專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程\n\n03:20.486 --> 03:43.658\n臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的那經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正那麼會\n\n03:45.359 --> 04:03.771\n整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在就在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者\n\n04:06.032 --> 04:06.172\n主席\n\n04:23.983 --> 04:28.807\n關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過\n\n04:43.038 --> 05:09.874\n就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容\n\n05:10.794 --> 05:34.205\n短期工具指引看牌講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好\n\n05:34.745 --> 06:00.292\n主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳\n\n06:08.570 --> 06:31.741\n我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統\n\n06:33.223 --> 06:52.053\n那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎\n\n06:56.277 --> 07:16.750\n未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準\n\n07:17.971 --> 07:29.820\n不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來\n\n07:33.203 --> 07:58.352\n那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報\n\n08:00.336 --> 08:01.857\n那你有建議過環境部了嗎?\n\n08:16.997 --> 08:35.265\n因為環境部目前的發資訊還不多啦環境部裡面的收集的係數還不多主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上一頁你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證\n\n08:43.735 --> 09:08.111\n513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子\n\n09:09.417 --> 09:29.350\n要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話\n\n09:31.857 --> 09:49.715\n那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據\n\n09:51.656 --> 10:07.247\n這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少\n\n10:08.613 --> 10:08.974\n我們看碳排\n\n10:27.150 --> 10:48.579\n大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶對那我們這個公共工程當然量很大了但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料\n\n10:49.259 --> 10:57.207\n可是問題是主委你這個要講清楚剛剛很多委員都在關心這一點就是什麼為什麼大家要關心這個因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算這個要由環境部決定\n\n11:02.470 --> 11:19.244\n所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定\n\n11:23.615 --> 11:23.755\n環境部\n\n11:46.295 --> 12:04.284\n環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取\n\n12:15.654 --> 12:36.182\n主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦齁那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢\n\n12:37.603 --> 12:54.643\n但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦主委\n\n12:59.779 --> 13:26.398\n我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定阿阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎\n\n13:32.418 --> 13:44.304\n公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦\n\n13:45.100 --> 14:11.541\n環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準\n\n14:12.882 --> 14:27.527\n會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證\n\n14:29.127 --> 14:50.594\n到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你又要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題\n\n14:53.956 --> 14:54.877\n何欣純委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.251,"end":11.355,"text":"謝謝昭緯我們請我們政委也是我們主委邀請我們陳金德主委委員長早主委長首先先要感謝你這個非常積極的就到台中去視察那希望能夠幫助台中的這個捷運這個工程那因為那一天大家都要選昭緯沒有辦法去但是我還是很感謝"},{"start":31.328,"end":60.256,"text":"因為呢我們捷運現在臺中捷運只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的救"},{"start":61.477,"end":74.271,"text":"現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方"},{"start":80.297,"end":80.598,"text":"好 那麼那一天"},{"start":99.497,"end":118.442,"text":"去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點"},{"start":129.405,"end":149.005,"text":"這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題"},{"start":150.748,"end":175.882,"text":"冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說"},{"start":177.023,"end":197.344,"text":"藉著中央跟專家學者今天可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天很多專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程"},{"start":200.486,"end":223.658,"text":"臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的那經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正那麼會"},{"start":225.359,"end":243.771,"text":"整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在就在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者"},{"start":246.032,"end":246.172,"text":"主席"},{"start":263.983,"end":268.807,"text":"關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過"},{"start":283.038,"end":309.874,"text":"就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容"},{"start":310.794,"end":334.205,"text":"短期工具指引看牌講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好"},{"start":334.745,"end":360.292,"text":"主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳"},{"start":368.57,"end":391.741,"text":"我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統"},{"start":393.223,"end":412.053,"text":"那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎"},{"start":416.277,"end":436.75,"text":"未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準"},{"start":437.971,"end":449.82,"text":"不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來"},{"start":453.203,"end":478.352,"text":"那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報"},{"start":480.336,"end":481.857,"text":"那你有建議過環境部了嗎?"},{"start":496.997,"end":515.265,"text":"因為環境部目前的發資訊還不多啦環境部裡面的收集的係數還不多主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上一頁你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證"},{"start":523.735,"end":548.111,"text":"513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子"},{"start":549.417,"end":569.35,"text":"要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話"},{"start":571.857,"end":589.715,"text":"那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據"},{"start":591.656,"end":607.247,"text":"這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少"},{"start":608.613,"end":608.974,"text":"我們看碳排"},{"start":627.15,"end":648.579,"text":"大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶對那我們這個公共工程當然量很大了但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料"},{"start":649.259,"end":657.207,"text":"可是問題是主委你這個要講清楚剛剛很多委員都在關心這一點就是什麼為什麼大家要關心這個因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算這個要由環境部決定"},{"start":662.47,"end":679.244,"text":"所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定"},{"start":683.615,"end":683.755,"text":"環境部"},{"start":706.295,"end":724.284,"text":"環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取"},{"start":735.654,"end":756.182,"text":"主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦齁那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢"},{"start":757.603,"end":774.643,"text":"但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦 主委"},{"start":779.779,"end":806.398,"text":"我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定阿阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎"},{"start":812.418,"end":824.304,"text":"公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦"},{"start":825.1,"end":851.541,"text":"環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準"},{"start":852.882,"end":867.527,"text":"會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證"},{"start":869.127,"end":890.594,"text":"到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你又要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題"},{"start":893.956,"end":894.877,"text":"何欣純委員質詢"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:14:01 - 10:29:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":154967,"gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時14分）謝謝召委。請政委，也是我們的主委。"],["主席：邀請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：主委早。首先要感謝你，非常積極地到臺中去視察，希望能夠幫助臺中的捷運工程，因為那一天大家都在選召委，我沒有辦法去，但是我還是很感謝，因為現在我們臺中捷運只有一條綠線，市民殷殷地期盼捷運藍線、橘線、紫線，還有更多條線，希望所有的路網可以儘速地動工，可以用最快的速度，但其實用最快的速度大概也要等10年，我們都希望趕快成立一個路網。我自己之前在上個會期的交通委員會也有召開一個考察，既然之前已經決定了，我們來不及參與，就希望能夠在現行的藍線要動工之前，在我們可以參與的時候，看中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決。現在圖面上這個是藍線，我們現在在橘線交會點的臺中車站那一個地方，那個轉乘的動線還有縮短距離很重要，但是我相信目前臺中市政府還在修正當中，如果可以的話，我也希望工程會的專家學者可以協助，去找出一個最好的解方，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，那一天去現場看，就是邀請了相關的專家、委員去現場就基本設計的內容做現勘，當然現在有些修正，我想近日之內基本設計就會完成核定，包括臺中市政府的修正也是。"],["何委員欣純：是，我剛剛提到的那一個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與，但是未來橘線的設計，我們可以趕得及來參與，現在這個轉乘的動線只是其中一個點。接下來，我知道主委去視察的時候有提到，現在我們捷運藍線，還有未來施工周邊交通交維計畫的問題、高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題、濱海海線地區抗強風的問題、潛盾隧道穿越河流的技術問題，當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題。我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區「屯區」，如果有延伸的話，跟橘線的交會點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近，所以我才希望借重中央跟專家學者的經驗，可以有效率地協助跟審議。主委，這方面你去視察的時候，這幾個點，你的意見、聽到專家學者的意見是什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：這就是當天很多專家學者提醒的，這個藍線的捷運算是臺中市滿複雜或困難的工程，而且臺中的臺中港到市區裡面的臺灣大道，也是交通非常繁忙的路線，也要經過一些橋梁，甚至要做兩層的，也有經過斷層，所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正，會來協助藍線能夠完成。"],["何委員欣純：我們是希望更有效率，當然現在正在修正當中，但是我們希望專家學者給的經驗還有意見是真正可以：第一個，有效率；第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形、地貌跟地形所有的形態。當然，這個工程專業的部分，我就交給工程會的專家學者。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝，因為已經到尾聲了，已經要核定基本設計了。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以要再更仔細地檢視一次，好不好？因為除了藍線，我們還有很多條線正在等，這個以後我再跟你好好地來討論。","接著，今天很多委員跟我一樣，都在關心淨零碳排、淨零轉型，尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就談到，我們公共採購要如何來促進淨零轉型，這個部分就是剛剛很多人在講的，我在5月29號也曾經質詢過，對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳，要怎麼雙贏、利多，所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫；第二個要明定減碳的基準值；第三，輔導產業碳排的認證。主委，你知道嗎？我要提醒你，你知道嗎？左邊黃色這塊就是你們回文給我的內容，我覺得你們的團隊實在是回文得很沒有禮貌、很不切實際，而且很沒有內容！「短期工具：指引、碳排……」這不是講廢話？「中期目標：階段性目標」這不是廢話嗎？「長期監理……」這是你們6月份回復的，未來回復本席公文的時候可不可以更針對要點，就你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好地回復，好不好？主委可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，這個我們能夠回答比較清楚……"],["何委員欣純：這個是大家那麼關心的事情，你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢？好，接下來我就要問了，我們現在要建立碳排資料庫，我贊成，我也支持工程會，但是第一個是環境部認不認？我們未來在碳排資料庫裡面減碳係數的計算目前有跟環境部協調過，他認不認帳？可以做未來碳費收取的依據嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們這個碳排係數是蒐集起來希望提供在做設計的時候、在做碳盤查的時候來使用。"],["何委員欣純：可是剛剛主委在回答其他委員的時候，你有說我們碳排資料庫成立了之後，我們還會建立一個試算系統……"],["陳主任委員金德：估算系統。"],["何委員欣純：好，這叫估算系統，有很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做，那對這個係數我還有幾個質疑，第一個，你們說現在只有513項經第三方驗證，這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證？是現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎？未來在驗證後的這個係數的計算，我想再確定一次，環境部有確認過嗎？他未來認不認？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，如果環境部要依據碳排來收取碳費，那這個是向人民收取碳費，他應該在相關法律裡面去訂定標準。"],["何委員欣純：不對了，主委，對這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話，那你又告訴大家各公共工程所有的設計一開始就要把工程每一個環節的碳係數都估算出來，在估算的時候，很多人都會認為這是政府給我的資料庫，我依據這個政府的資料庫來做碳係數的計算，在計算出來之後，我可以掌握我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少，因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府，環境部也是政府機關，未來我在跟環境部申報碳權、碳費之類的時候，那我的依據又是什麼？如果環境部沒有給我一個依據的標準，那我可不可以用公共工程委員會的這個標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個要由環境部訂定標準，因為它涉及跟人民收費。"],["何委員欣純：那你有建議過環境部了嗎？你們有開過會了嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：環境部目前的資訊還不多，環境部所蒐集的係數還不多。"],["何委員欣純：沒有，主委，我現在就是在提醒你，你看！第一個，光是現在碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半，因為還有589項都還沒有驗證。另外，經第三方驗證的513項到底算不算數？我也不知道是不是經濟部所公告17家驗證單位來驗證的，未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家驗證單位來驗證才算數，這個你還沒有對外說清楚，這是第一點。","第二點，我為什麼要這樣子要求你們、提醒你們？因為如果你們建立的這個碳排資料庫僅止於像主委你剛剛講的，只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好、設計單位的人員也好，來作為這一項公共工程碳係數的參考的話，那我不知道這個參考有沒有用，因為這會牽涉到後端在未來對這個公共工程他們在報環境部然後要去檢視他的碳量需不需要繳碳費時，能不能作為一個依據，這個會引起國人很大的疑慮。第二個，在這個方面，剛剛主委跟我說沒有，這個只是一個參考而不是依據，那請你要提醒環境部，你剛剛跟我講環境部現在的資料很少，那我們還有時間做啊！對不對？因為現在是針對大戶嘛！我還有想所謂的大戶，像我們的公共工程，譬如說未來捷運一蓋就是一千多億，一千多億算不算大戶？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們是看碳排，比方說，大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠，它那個碳是大戶。"],["何委員欣純：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：那我們公共工程當然量很大，因為每個鋼筋、混凝土的量很大，我的意思是說我們這個是設計，是設計者可以選擇要用A原料或B原料，在設計階段……"],["何委員欣純：主委，你這個要講清楚喔！剛剛有很多委員都在關心這一點，為什麼大家要關心這個？因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個要由環境部決定。"],["何委員欣純：所以啦！你現在這樣子講，就是說到目前為止，你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，環境部也可以訂定相關標準，就是要根據什麼標準來收費……"],["何委員欣純：那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算系統、以這個碳資料庫來做依據？"],["陳主任委員金德：這還是由環境部來決定。"],["何委員欣純：沒有，你們兩個部會要講好，而且主委還是政委，我現在已經提出這個問題，連你都沒有辦法回答我了，那國人怎麼會知道呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：我相信環境部會訂定一個依據，環境部有這樣的專業，那目前我們是在起步階段，趕快蒐集這些碳排係數。"],["何委員欣純：環境部有這樣的專業？主委，我跟你講，到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦！公共工程是誰管的？是你管的啊！對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們跟環境部密切來……"],["何委員欣純：不然環境部可以知道公共工程的碳排怎麼計算，然後應該定什麼基準，在這個基準定了之後，如果這個公共工程超過了，我要怎麼收取，這個我相信他會來問你啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會根據委員的指導來跟環境部商量。"],["何委員欣純：主委，我是要提醒，因為現在你講的是針對大戶，雖然我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼，那在今年10月要上路，在上路之後，我們對公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義，我也不知道，我是門外漢，但是我相信國人跟很多基層的工程廠商大概跟我一樣，因為他可能也沒讀過什麼專業的書，所以他會跟我一樣問說：如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了，那我怎麼辦？主委，我怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式，他將來可以……"],["何委員欣純：主委，未來我只要再等3年、5年後，你總是要做嘛！在3年、5年後你說我們所有的公共工程要減碳，然後可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取，那你總是要有一個計算基準嘛！這個基準到底是誰定啊？你說是環境部定，可是環境部了解公共工程嗎？未來在3年後、5年後如果要收的時候，公共工程碳費的收取標準怎麼辦？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：那當然目前來看是……"],["何委員欣純：我知道你現在是做指引，我們在現階段是做指引啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法。"],["何委員欣純：對嘛！我想當然爾嘛！大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會，所以我就來問你的意見嘛！那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程相關的專家或者是相關的制定依據的時候，他來詢問公共工程委員會，那我們委員會這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為一個依據的標準？我不知道會不會，現在你跟我講不是，那未來會不會？如果未來會的話，那回到我剛剛在提醒你的，如果未來會的話，你這整個的第三方驗證到底算不算數？再來，到底有沒有跟國際接軌？算不算數？那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的，那你又要如何進行？如何跟國際法規接軌？我只是提醒，未來還有很多要做，所以拜託你，這個是實際上的問題，國人有疑問的、不知道的、看不清楚的、也問不到的，再請我們的主委、也是我們的政委可以跨部會來協調，必須要快，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的質詢。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員質詢。","在這邊先預告一下，就是我們等一下在魯明哲召委質詢之後休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}}