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\"end\": 594.558, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 594.558, \"end\": 594.758, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 594.758, \"end\": 594.838, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 594.838, \"end\": 594.938, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 594.938, \"end\": 595.018, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.018, \"end\": 595.059, \"score\": 0.45}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 595.059, \"end\": 595.539, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 595.539, \"end\": 595.679, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 595.679, \"end\": 595.879, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 595.879, \"end\": 596.079, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 596.079, \"end\": 596.199, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 596.199, \"end\": 596.219, \"score\": 0.139}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"廖\", \"start\": 599.216, \"end\": 599.457, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 599.457, \"end\": 599.659, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"翔\", \"start\": 599.659, \"end\": 599.881, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 599.881, \"end\": 599.901, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:06,711\n今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較\n\n2\n00:00:30,163 --> 00:00:31,424\n我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標\n\n3\n00:00:52,586 --> 00:00:55,169\n公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段\n\n4\n00:01:11,868 --> 00:01:40,059\n所以你們只負責統計而已是不是?你們不設定目標?我們當然可以審查他的基本設計,包括金獅獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢,讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標?還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已?就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎?對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標?\n\n5\n00:01:41,802 --> 00:02:08,922\n這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會員增加會有減少啊各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的\n\n6\n00:02:10,489 --> 00:02:37,401\n報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計\n\n7\n00:02:40,342 --> 00:03:00,480\n或在施工階段他能夠就近取材不用長途運輸等等這樣的工具來減少碳排至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂所以以後在討論這個2050淨零碳排的時候就說不用討論到我們工程會了是這樣的意思\n\n8\n00:03:01,261 --> 00:03:03,262\n目前看起來是這樣?不是\n\n9\n00:03:26,050 --> 00:03:39,432\n因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少叫碳排係數但你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少\n\n10\n00:03:40,933 --> 00:03:54,965\n他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎\n\n11\n00:03:58,046 --> 00:03:59,627\n公共工程委員會並沒有訂定相關的一些\n\n12\n00:04:27,819 --> 00:04:28,159\n委員會主席\n\n13\n00:04:49,128 --> 00:05:05,952\n這個碳排氣數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排氣數會那如果說是固定工法是固定的碳排氣數那要降什麼那你就只是統計而已啊你就變主機處了嘛每單位每單位\n\n14\n00:05:10,905 --> 00:05:39,093\n原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要學阿如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量\n\n15\n00:05:40,492 --> 00:05:54,997\n如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的\n\n16\n00:05:56,627 --> 00:06:25,017\n所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去\n\n17\n00:06:26,417 --> 00:06:53,066\n查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話\n\n18\n00:06:57,682 --> 00:07:21,241\n生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊\n\n19\n00:07:21,641 --> 00:07:31,990\n每一家都會不一樣也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量產生多少量固定量每申請一公噸它所產生的碳排都會不一樣\n\n20\n00:07:33,823 --> 00:07:35,443\n主委我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題\n\n21\n00:07:57,668 --> 00:08:07,386\n我真的這樣計畫以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清淳委員講的你一個國家有兩套制度你到時要走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式\n\n22\n00:08:11,407 --> 00:08:32,681\n每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比方說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是有一樣的國家的認證的單位\n\n23\n00:08:34,787 --> 00:08:34,867\n廖先翔\n\n24\n00:08:52,779 --> 00:09:12,601\n我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望\n\n25\n00:09:13,602 --> 00:09:28,412\n我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降\n\n26\n00:09:29,272 --> 00:09:56,219\n那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨零碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝\n\n27\n00:09:59,216 --> 00:09:59,901\n謝謝廖先翔委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4230\t6711\t今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較\n30163\t31424\t我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標\n52586\t55169\t公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段\n71868\t100059\t所以你們只負責統計而已是不是?你們不設定目標?我們當然可以審查他的基本設計,包括金獅獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢,讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標?還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已?就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎?對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標?\n101802\t128922\t這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會員增加會有減少啊各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的\n130489\t157401\t報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計\n160342\t180480\t或在施工階段他能夠就近取材不用長途運輸等等這樣的工具來減少碳排至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂所以以後在討論這個2050淨零碳排的時候就說不用討論到我們工程會了是這樣的意思\n181261\t183262\t目前看起來是這樣?不是\n206050\t219432\t因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少叫碳排係數但你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少\n220933\t234965\t他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎\n238046\t239627\t公共工程委員會並沒有訂定相關的一些\n267819\t268159\t委員會主席\n289128\t305952\t這個碳排氣數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排氣數會那如果說是固定工法是固定的碳排氣數那要降什麼那你就只是統計而已啊你就變主機處了嘛每單位每單位\n310905\t339093\t原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要學阿如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量\n340492\t354997\t如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的\n356627\t385017\t所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去\n386417\t413066\t查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話\n417682\t441241\t生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊\n441641\t451990\t每一家都會不一樣 也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量 產生多少量 固定量每申請一公噸 它所產生的碳排都會不一樣\n453823\t455443\t主委我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題\n477668\t487386\t我真的這樣計畫以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清淳委員講的你一個國家有兩套制度你到時要走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式\n491407\t512681\t每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比方說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是有一樣的國家的認證的單位\n514787\t514867\t廖先翔\n532779\t552601\t我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望\n553602\t568412\t我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降\n569272\t596219\t那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨零碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝\n599216\t599901\t謝謝廖先翔委員質詢\n","txt":"今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較\n我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標\n公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段\n所以你們只負責統計而已是不是?你們不設定目標?我們當然可以審查他的基本設計,包括金獅獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢,讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標?還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已?就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎?對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標?\n這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會員增加會有減少啊各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的\n報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計\n或在施工階段他能夠就近取材不用長途運輸等等這樣的工具來減少碳排至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂所以以後在討論這個2050淨零碳排的時候就說不用討論到我們工程會了是這樣的意思\n目前看起來是這樣?不是\n因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少叫碳排係數但你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少\n他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎\n公共工程委員會並沒有訂定相關的一些\n委員會主席\n這個碳排氣數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排氣數會那如果說是固定工法是固定的碳排氣數那要降什麼那你就只是統計而已啊你就變主機處了嘛每單位每單位\n原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要學阿如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量\n如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的\n所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去\n查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話\n生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊\n每一家都會不一樣 也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量 產生多少量 固定量每申請一公噸 它所產生的碳排都會不一樣\n主委我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題\n我真的這樣計畫以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清淳委員講的你一個國家有兩套制度你到時要走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式\n每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比方說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是有一樣的國家的認證的單位\n廖先翔\n我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望\n我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降\n那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨零碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝\n謝謝廖先翔委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.230 --> 00:06.711\n今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較\n\n00:30.163 --> 00:31.424\n我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標\n\n00:52.586 --> 00:55.169\n公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段\n\n01:11.868 --> 01:40.059\n所以你們只負責統計而已是不是?你們不設定目標?我們當然可以審查他的基本設計,包括金獅獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢,讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標?還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已?就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎?對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標?\n\n01:41.802 --> 02:08.922\n這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會員增加會有減少啊各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的\n\n02:10.489 --> 02:37.401\n報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計\n\n02:40.342 --> 03:00.480\n或在施工階段他能夠就近取材不用長途運輸等等這樣的工具來減少碳排至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂所以以後在討論這個2050淨零碳排的時候就說不用討論到我們工程會了是這樣的意思\n\n03:01.261 --> 03:03.262\n目前看起來是這樣?不是\n\n03:26.050 --> 03:39.432\n因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少叫碳排係數但你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少\n\n03:40.933 --> 03:54.965\n他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎\n\n03:58.046 --> 03:59.627\n公共工程委員會並沒有訂定相關的一些\n\n04:27.819 --> 04:28.159\n委員會主席\n\n04:49.128 --> 05:05.952\n這個碳排氣數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排氣數會那如果說是固定工法是固定的碳排氣數那要降什麼那你就只是統計而已啊你就變主機處了嘛每單位每單位\n\n05:10.905 --> 05:39.093\n原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要學阿如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量\n\n05:40.492 --> 05:54.997\n如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的\n\n05:56.627 --> 06:25.017\n所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去\n\n06:26.417 --> 06:53.066\n查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話\n\n06:57.682 --> 07:21.241\n生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊\n\n07:21.641 --> 07:31.990\n每一家都會不一樣也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量產生多少量固定量每申請一公噸它所產生的碳排都會不一樣\n\n07:33.823 --> 07:35.443\n主委我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題\n\n07:57.668 --> 08:07.386\n我真的這樣計畫以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清淳委員講的你一個國家有兩套制度你到時要走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式\n\n08:11.407 --> 08:32.681\n每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比方說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是有一樣的國家的認證的單位\n\n08:34.787 --> 08:34.867\n廖先翔\n\n08:52.779 --> 09:12.601\n我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望\n\n09:13.602 --> 09:28.412\n我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降\n\n09:29.272 --> 09:56.219\n那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨零碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝\n\n09:59.216 --> 09:59.901\n謝謝廖先翔委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.23,"end":6.711,"text":"今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較"},{"start":30.163,"end":31.424,"text":"我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標"},{"start":52.586,"end":55.169,"text":"公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段"},{"start":71.868,"end":100.059,"text":"所以你們只負責統計而已是不是?你們不設定目標?我們當然可以審查他的基本設計,包括金獅獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢,讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標?還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已?就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎?對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標?"},{"start":101.802,"end":128.922,"text":"這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會員增加會有減少啊各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的"},{"start":130.489,"end":157.401,"text":"報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計"},{"start":160.342,"end":180.48,"text":"或在施工階段他能夠就近取材不用長途運輸等等這樣的工具來減少碳排至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂所以以後在討論這個2050淨零碳排的時候就說不用討論到我們工程會了是這樣的意思"},{"start":181.261,"end":183.262,"text":"目前看起來是這樣?不是"},{"start":206.05,"end":219.432,"text":"因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少叫碳排係數但你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少"},{"start":220.933,"end":234.965,"text":"他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎"},{"start":238.046,"end":239.627,"text":"公共工程委員會並沒有訂定相關的一些"},{"start":267.819,"end":268.159,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":289.128,"end":305.952,"text":"這個碳排氣數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排氣數會那如果說是固定工法是固定的碳排氣數那要降什麼那你就只是統計而已啊你就變主機處了嘛每單位每單位"},{"start":310.905,"end":339.093,"text":"原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要學阿如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量"},{"start":340.492,"end":354.997,"text":"如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的"},{"start":356.627,"end":385.017,"text":"所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去"},{"start":386.417,"end":413.066,"text":"查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話"},{"start":417.682,"end":441.241,"text":"生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊"},{"start":441.641,"end":451.99,"text":"每一家都會不一樣 也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量 產生多少量 固定量每申請一公噸 它所產生的碳排都會不一樣"},{"start":453.823,"end":455.443,"text":"主委我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題"},{"start":477.668,"end":487.386,"text":"我真的這樣計畫以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清淳委員講的你一個國家有兩套制度你到時要走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式"},{"start":491.407,"end":512.681,"text":"每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比方說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是有一樣的國家的認證的單位"},{"start":514.787,"end":514.867,"text":"廖先翔"},{"start":532.779,"end":552.601,"text":"我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望"},{"start":553.602,"end":568.412,"text":"我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降"},{"start":569.272,"end":596.219,"text":"那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨零碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝"},{"start":599.216,"end":599.901,"text":"謝謝廖先翔委員質詢"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:29:29 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10:39:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":154968,"gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時29分）謝謝召委，一樣請我們陳主委。"],["主席：請陳金德主委。"],["廖委員先翔：我們環境部部長有沒有來？"],["主席：今天沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有喔！我怕主委等一下又要一直找環境部部長救援。"],["主席：今天是工程會的業務報告。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝喔！今天大家都非常關心淨零碳排，當然政府常常會提一些比較遠的、比較宏觀的目標，譬如說RE100、2050淨零碳排，我們工程會也訂定了一個目標，就是2030年減碳目標訂為相對2005年至少要減大概25%正負1%，這是我們訂的目標，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：是國發會。"],["廖委員先翔：這是國發會訂的目標？那我們工程會有沒有自己訂的目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會不是這個業務的主管機關，但是因為公共工程的碳排占將近10%……"],["廖委員先翔：如果說這個不是你們的業務的話，那我們今天要討論什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於工程會的業務，所以我們在審查階段或者是……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們只負責統計而已，是不是？你們不設定目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以審查它的基本設計，包括金質獎的頒發等等，可以用這些工具讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排，我們也努力在公共工程的部分……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，很明確的問，減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標，還是我們只是做一個統計的業務而已？"],["陳主任委員金德：就公共工程的減碳，當然工程會要負責。"],["廖委員先翔：是我們的目標嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們有沒有設定實質的目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個部分很難去設定說多少年要減少多少，因為公共工程它……"],["廖委員先翔：問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：因為公共工程會有增加、會有減少，每年公共工程預算都不一樣……"],["廖委員先翔：各個部會一定都要訂定自己的目標，當然可能我們實體的工程不是工程會在做，所以你們也有要求各部會、15個部會要提出減碳的相關辦理情形，對不對？我們在113年5月28日的時候請15個中央相關部會提供公共工程減碳目標，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，公共工程它每年在增加、在變化，所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年、後年要減少多少碳排，沒有辦法，但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候，比方說，依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排，在基本設計的時候做減碳的設計，或者在施工階段能夠就近取材，不用長途運輸等等，這樣的工具來減少碳排，至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂定，因為它是一個變動的。"],["廖委員先翔：所以以後在討論2050淨零碳排的時候就不用討論到我們工程會了，是這樣的意思？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會是針對公共工程……"],["廖委員先翔：我們是一個督導的單位，我們當然期許各個招標機關要有一個減碳的措施，對不對？剛剛主委有提到很多設計階段的時候的碳排係數，如果說我們只是訂定一個碳排係數，好像就只是在簡單做一個統計的工具而已吧，目前看起來是這樣。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，因為碳排係數，比方說鋼筋，什麼樣的鋼筋它每噸或每公斤排碳多少、碳排係數，你這個甲工程用了多少這個產品，你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是統計啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：它作為設計的依據。"],["廖委員先翔：是啊，所以是單純統計而已嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是統計而已，它作為設計的依據，他整個可以算出這個工程完成之後排了多少碳、需要減多少碳。"],["廖委員先翔：需要減多少碳，那就是要設定一個目標嘛，是吧！"],["陳主任委員金德：不是……"],["廖委員先翔：你就只是給他一個說你這個水泥，你的碳排的單位是多少，鋼筋的單位是多少，然後設計單位去把它設計出來，然後告訴我這個總體的公共工程的碳排是多少。"],["陳主任委員金德：比方說，他也可以用一些再生料源，或者一些比較低碳的……"],["廖委員先翔：主委，其實剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候就很單純的感受到，我們公共工程委員會並沒有去訂定相關的一些目標，或者是您說的這個碳排係數是不是要逐年調降這件事情，我們會去訂定碳排係數，我們不要講到那麼大的一個公共工程，我們單純只就單項水泥、鋼筋的碳排係數，我們會不會去設定目標，每年去把它調降？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個碳排係數跟它的生產工法有關，它的工法是什麼樣的工法，如果是固定的工法，它的那個碳排係數會比較固定。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說固定工法是固定的碳排係數，那要降什麼？那你就只是統計而已啊，你就變主計總處了。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，碳排係數是每單位原料它排了多少碳，所以這個是固定的。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以他要不要選擇……"],["廖委員先翔：如果是固定的話，我們減什麼碳？"],["陳主任委員金德：他可以不選擇排碳係數比較高的產品，用一些比較低的產品。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至我們在討論碳排係數的時候，每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題，所以每一家廠商的碳排係數實務上都會不一樣，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會，碳排係數是固定的，只是他用了多少量。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說每一家的碳排係數都是固定的……"],["陳主任委員金德：每個產品。"],["廖委員先翔：每個產品的碳排係數是固定的，那減什麼碳？那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買碳稅，為什麼要繳碳稅？每一家廠商的碳排係數是固定的。"],["陳主任委員金德：所謂係數是單位產品的排放量，比方說他用了1,000噸、1萬噸，所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣，排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費……"],["廖委員先翔：我們單純就講個別產品，我們就單純講水泥就好了。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["廖委員先翔：每一家水泥公司到時候因為經濟部或是環境部，它會有相關的碳稅或碳費，每一家廠商要去做碳盤查，所以每一家他們會去查核，就是剛剛何欣純委員講的，經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商每生產每單位的原料會生產多少的碳，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說你超過標準的話，那你是要去買綠電還是去買碳稅等等的，所以每一家廠商的碳排係數會是不一樣的，但是我們如果在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排係數都是固定的話，那好像一個單位有兩套制度嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，生產出來的水泥用在公共工程，比方說，甲類的水泥的排放係數是多少，每公斤多少，它用了多少就是一個碳排係數，就水泥廠本身，它在生產水泥的過程當中用了多少燃料，這些燃料排了多少碳，才是這一家水泥廠的排碳……"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以每一家都會不一樣對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：那當然，它生產的量不一樣啊！"],["廖委員先翔：每一家都會不一樣，也會因為它的製程而有所不一樣對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是它產生了多少量，產生什麼樣的水泥……"],["廖委員先翔：固定量，每生產1公噸它所產生的碳排都會不一樣，是吧！不然我們為什麼要優化我們的產線？為什麼我們經濟部要補助廠商去做生產線的優化、減碳的優化？如果說你每一個碳排係數都固定的話，那為什麼廠商要來做優化？"],["陳主任委員金德：經過不同製程產生的水泥，我們就會算出這種水泥每單位每公斤產生的……"],["廖委員先翔：主委，我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題，你這樣計算以後會產生很大的問題，就像剛剛何欣純委員講的，一個國家有兩套制度，你到底要走經濟部、環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式？"],["陳主任委員金德：公共工程委員會是……"],["廖委員先翔：每一個部會、每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣，那廠商要怎麼依循？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料，當然有些機關也有，比方說水利也有在收集。"],["廖委員先翔：我覺得最基本的，每一個部會所認定的碳排係數、碳排的數量一定都是由一樣的國家的認證單位，一樣的檢驗核可的單位去做盤查，我們最重要的是去做目標的訂定，而不是單純去做一個統計的數字，我們唯有去做一個目標的訂定，廠商它才有去做減碳的一個動力，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視，跟其他第三方共同來……"],["廖委員先翔：不要單純就只是一個統計而已，我希望我們的公共工程委員會是去定一個實際的目標，依據我們國家2050淨零碳排的一個目標，我們逐年希望，我不要講總體，因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發包的多寡，會影響到我們排放的多寡，而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數，我們逐年的去把它調降，那廠商它才有動力去做產線的優化，或者是去做一個淨零碳排的目標，一起來配合國家的政策，我們才能做到實質的從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求，你每個單項都去要求的時候，你總體的部分當然就會下降。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["廖委員先翔：以上就麻煩主委，謝謝，我剛剛講的其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的，我希望我們去設定一個目標，而不是只是一個統計而已，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員質詢，接下來邀請魯明哲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}}