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833.848, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 833.848, \"end\": 833.868, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,595 --> 00:00:29,982\n謝謝主席有請國科會吳誠文主委有請吳主委各位人好主委好今天感謝召委安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討\n\n2\n00:00:31,062 --> 00:00:59,990\n我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來和主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊\n\n3\n00:01:00,390 --> 00:01:28,537\n但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育\n\n4\n00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:30,876\n所以人數你們不用算啦?\n\n5\n00:01:49,709 --> 00:02:07,096\n我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略\n\n6\n00:02:08,036 --> 00:02:28,556\n這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國會到底有沒有關係\n\n7\n00:02:30,027 --> 00:02:50,567\n當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院\n\n8\n00:02:51,748 --> 00:02:53,128\n報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄\n\n9\n00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:34,386\n現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了\n\n10\n00:03:35,026 --> 00:03:47,297\n下一代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少\n\n11\n00:03:48,939 --> 00:04:11,108\n科研的人力不需要到非常的多那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會各部會都要負責包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力\n\n12\n00:04:11,468 --> 00:04:11,928\n教育部應該在裡面的\n\n13\n00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:52,516\n這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛\n\n14\n00:04:53,277 --> 00:05:10,348\n我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢?\n\n15\n00:05:11,989 --> 00:05:32,442\n在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧\n\n16\n00:05:33,063 --> 00:05:47,966\n我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台\n\n17\n00:05:48,166 --> 00:05:49,887\n台灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著\n\n18\n00:06:08,837 --> 00:06:24,744\n人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%\n\n19\n00:06:27,066 --> 00:06:48,701\n29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據省紀部最新的決算報告\n\n20\n00:06:57,927 --> 00:07:18,280\n從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才跟研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界\n\n21\n00:07:18,740 --> 00:07:44,389\n比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國科會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡\n\n22\n00:07:45,903 --> 00:08:11,071\n國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他的地方\n\n23\n00:08:13,552 --> 00:08:34,778\n所以我們要發展產業發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您都要說要做的是科研人才啊您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技預算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡\n\n24\n00:08:35,538 --> 00:08:36,779\n但是人才有些適合產業發展有些適合在學界發展\n\n25\n00:09:04,758 --> 00:09:22,469\n那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好\n\n26\n00:09:23,129 --> 00:09:23,870\nAI產業是由國科會主導\n\n27\n00:09:38,629 --> 00:10:01,119\nAI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果以書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以\n\n28\n00:10:01,539 --> 00:10:28,208\n不要6個月啦,我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案好,早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續啦因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是靈探是不是近靈的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的,你需不需要知道我剛委員報告\n\n29\n00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:42,679\n我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技詞好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍\n\n30\n00:10:43,615 --> 00:11:02,070\n我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化核反應器\n\n31\n00:11:02,771 --> 00:11:22,776\n我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦\n\n32\n00:11:28,795 --> 00:11:52,880\n我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?\n\n33\n00:11:53,874 --> 00:12:21,156\n主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同\n\n34\n00:12:24,206 --> 00:12:48,956\n我是鼓勵啊我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊所以是不是鼓勵sm啊主要是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計劃通過審查我們都一定會同意的這個我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的\n\n35\n00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:54,180\n他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同\n\n36\n00:13:27,653 --> 00:13:39,081\n甲骨文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SM嗎?\n\n37\n00:13:40,642 --> 00:13:53,868\n主委是不是後續再跟葛委員報告我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的議題謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢再請吳佩奕委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4595\t29982\t謝謝主席有請國科會吳誠文主委有請吳主委各位人好主委好今天感謝召委安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討\n31062\t59990\t我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來和主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊\n60390\t88537\t但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育\n90356\t90876\t所以人數你們不用算啦?\n109709\t127096\t我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略\n128036\t148556\t這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國會到底有沒有關係\n150027\t170567\t當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院\n171748\t173128\t報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄\n193280\t214386\t現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了\n215026\t227297\t下一代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少\n228939\t251108\t科研的人力不需要到非常的多 那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會 各部會都要負責 包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等 我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力\n251468\t251928\t教育部應該在裡面的\n275880\t292516\t這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛\n293277\t310348\t我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢?\n311989\t332442\t在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧\n333063\t347966\t我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台\n348166\t349887\t台灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著\n368837\t384744\t人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%\n387066\t408701\t29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據省紀部最新的決算報告\n417927\t438280\t從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才跟研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界\n438740\t464389\t比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國科會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡\n465903\t491071\t國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他的地方\n493552\t514778\t所以我們要發展產業發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您都要說要做的是科研人才啊您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技預算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡\n515538\t516779\t但是人才有些適合產業發展 有些適合在學界發展\n544758\t562469\t那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好\n563129\t563870\tAI產業是由國科會主導\n578629\t601119\tAI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果以書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以\n601539\t628208\t不要6個月啦,我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案好,早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續啦因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是靈探是不是近靈的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的,你需不需要知道我剛委員報告\n629400\t642679\t我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技詞好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍\n643615\t662070\t我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化核反應器\n662771\t682776\t我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦\n688795\t712880\t我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?\n713874\t741156\t主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同\n744206\t768956\t我是鼓勵啊我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊所以是不是鼓勵sm啊主要是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計劃通過審查我們都一定會同意的這個我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的\n770316\t774180\t他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同\n807653\t819081\t甲骨文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SM嗎?\n820642\t833868\t主委是不是後續再跟葛委員報告我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的議題謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢再請吳佩奕委員質詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請國科會吳誠文主委有請吳主委各位人好主委好今天感謝召委安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討\n我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來和主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊\n但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育\n所以人數你們不用算啦?\n我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略\n這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國會到底有沒有關係\n當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院\n報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄\n現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了\n下一代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少\n科研的人力不需要到非常的多 那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會 各部會都要負責 包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等 我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力\n教育部應該在裡面的\n這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛\n我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢?\n在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧\n我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台\n台灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著\n人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%\n29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據省紀部最新的決算報告\n從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才跟研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界\n比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國科會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡\n國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他的地方\n所以我們要發展產業發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您都要說要做的是科研人才啊您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技預算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡\n但是人才有些適合產業發展 有些適合在學界發展\n那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好\nAI產業是由國科會主導\nAI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果以書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以\n不要6個月啦,我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案好,早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續啦因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是靈探是不是近靈的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的,你需不需要知道我剛委員報告\n我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技詞好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍\n我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化核反應器\n我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦\n我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?\n主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同\n我是鼓勵啊我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊所以是不是鼓勵sm啊主要是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計劃通過審查我們都一定會同意的這個我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的\n他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同\n甲骨文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SM嗎?\n主委是不是後續再跟葛委員報告我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的議題謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢再請吳佩奕委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.595 --> 00:29.982\n謝謝主席有請國科會吳誠文主委有請吳主委各位人好主委好今天感謝召委安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討\n\n00:31.062 --> 00:59.990\n我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來和主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊\n\n01:00.390 --> 01:28.537\n但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育\n\n01:30.356 --> 01:30.876\n所以人數你們不用算啦?\n\n01:49.709 --> 02:07.096\n我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略\n\n02:08.036 --> 02:28.556\n這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國會到底有沒有關係\n\n02:30.027 --> 02:50.567\n當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院\n\n02:51.748 --> 02:53.128\n報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄\n\n03:13.280 --> 03:34.386\n現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了\n\n03:35.026 --> 03:47.297\n下一代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少\n\n03:48.939 --> 04:11.108\n科研的人力不需要到非常的多那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會各部會都要負責包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力\n\n04:11.468 --> 04:11.928\n教育部應該在裡面的\n\n04:35.880 --> 04:52.516\n這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛\n\n04:53.277 --> 05:10.348\n我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢?\n\n05:11.989 --> 05:32.442\n在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧\n\n05:33.063 --> 05:47.966\n我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台\n\n05:48.166 --> 05:49.887\n台灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著\n\n06:08.837 --> 06:24.744\n人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%\n\n06:27.066 --> 06:48.701\n29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據省紀部最新的決算報告\n\n06:57.927 --> 07:18.280\n從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才跟研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界\n\n07:18.740 --> 07:44.389\n比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國科會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡\n\n07:45.903 --> 08:11.071\n國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他的地方\n\n08:13.552 --> 08:34.778\n所以我們要發展產業發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您都要說要做的是科研人才啊您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技預算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡\n\n08:35.538 --> 08:36.779\n但是人才有些適合產業發展有些適合在學界發展\n\n09:04.758 --> 09:22.469\n那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好\n\n09:23.129 --> 09:23.870\nAI產業是由國科會主導\n\n09:38.629 --> 10:01.119\nAI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果以書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以\n\n10:01.539 --> 10:28.208\n不要6個月啦,我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案好,早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續啦因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是靈探是不是近靈的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的,你需不需要知道我剛委員報告\n\n10:29.400 --> 10:42.679\n我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技詞好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍\n\n10:43.615 --> 11:02.070\n我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化核反應器\n\n11:02.771 --> 11:22.776\n我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦\n\n11:28.795 --> 11:52.880\n我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?\n\n11:53.874 --> 12:21.156\n主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同\n\n12:24.206 --> 12:48.956\n我是鼓勵啊我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊所以是不是鼓勵sm啊主要是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計劃通過審查我們都一定會同意的這個我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的\n\n12:50.316 --> 12:54.180\n他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同\n\n13:27.653 --> 13:39.081\n甲骨文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SM嗎?\n\n13:40.642 --> 13:53.868\n主委是不是後續再跟葛委員報告我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的議題謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢再請吳佩奕委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.595,"end":29.982,"text":"謝謝主席有請國科會吳誠文主委有請吳主委各位人好主委好今天感謝召委安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討"},{"start":31.062,"end":59.99,"text":"我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來和主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊"},{"start":60.39,"end":88.537,"text":"但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育"},{"start":90.356,"end":90.876,"text":"所以人數你們不用算啦?"},{"start":109.709,"end":127.096,"text":"我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略"},{"start":128.036,"end":148.556,"text":"這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國會到底有沒有關係"},{"start":150.027,"end":170.567,"text":"當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院"},{"start":171.748,"end":173.128,"text":"報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄"},{"start":193.28,"end":214.386,"text":"現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了"},{"start":215.026,"end":227.297,"text":"下一代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少"},{"start":228.939,"end":251.108,"text":"科研的人力不需要到非常的多 那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會 各部會都要負責 包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等 我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力"},{"start":251.468,"end":251.928,"text":"教育部應該在裡面的"},{"start":275.88,"end":292.516,"text":"這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛"},{"start":293.277,"end":310.348,"text":"我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢?"},{"start":311.989,"end":332.442,"text":"在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧"},{"start":333.063,"end":347.966,"text":"我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台"},{"start":348.166,"end":349.887,"text":"台灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著"},{"start":368.837,"end":384.744,"text":"人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%"},{"start":387.066,"end":408.701,"text":"29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據省紀部最新的決算報告"},{"start":417.927,"end":438.28,"text":"從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才跟研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界"},{"start":438.74,"end":464.389,"text":"比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國科會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡"},{"start":465.903,"end":491.071,"text":"國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他的地方"},{"start":493.552,"end":514.778,"text":"所以我們要發展產業發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您都要說要做的是科研人才啊您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技預算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡"},{"start":515.538,"end":516.779,"text":"但是人才有些適合產業發展 有些適合在學界發展"},{"start":544.758,"end":562.469,"text":"那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好"},{"start":563.129,"end":563.87,"text":"AI產業是由國科會主導"},{"start":578.629,"end":601.119,"text":"AI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果以書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以"},{"start":601.539,"end":628.208,"text":"不要6個月啦,我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案好,早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續啦因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是靈探是不是近靈的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的,你需不需要知道我剛委員報告"},{"start":629.4,"end":642.679,"text":"我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技詞好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍"},{"start":643.615,"end":662.07,"text":"我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化核反應器"},{"start":662.771,"end":682.776,"text":"我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦"},{"start":688.795,"end":712.88,"text":"我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?"},{"start":713.874,"end":741.156,"text":"主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同"},{"start":744.206,"end":768.956,"text":"我是鼓勵啊我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊所以是不是鼓勵sm啊主要是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計劃通過審查我們都一定會同意的這個我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的"},{"start":770.316,"end":774.18,"text":"他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同"},{"start":807.653,"end":819.081,"text":"甲骨文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SM嗎?"},{"start":820.642,"end":833.868,"text":"主委是不是後續再跟葛委員報告我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的議題謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢再請吳佩奕委員質詢"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:44:21 - 10:58:26","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":154971,"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時44分）謝謝主席。有請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。今天感謝召委安排專報的題目─永續科研，AI其實是目前熱門的產業，持續熱門，也是科學研究現在非常多的教授、研究中心在做的題目，先前幾次的質詢，我也就AI的發展還有各個面向有跟您進行探討，我想人類的發展，AI一定會在其中扮演角色，我們如果沒有辦法做好，會影響到我們的存續，它如果做得好，也會幫助我們的存續，所以這當然是一個永續的議題，配合這樣的議題有兩大重點，人才的永續跟能源的永續就會是非常重要的課題。首先和主委談一下人才的永續，行政院在9月5日剛剛公布了五大信賴產業，為什麼剛好也姓賴我們改天再聊，但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標，要成為全球AI影響力的中心。從行政院的簡報，我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才，預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才。請教一下主委，培養20萬名AI人才的具體作法是什麼？明年就是第一年，20萬的多少要培育？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院規劃的這個人才培育目標是國發會主政，而國科會這邊，當然我們培養的是科研的人才，以及我們在學校因為資助大學做科研，所培養的相關產業的人才都是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以人數你們不用算？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分，以及將來在產業，產業有所謂的AI產業，以及AI的應用的產業，那麼應用端……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以20萬人才，明年要多少萬？有沒有數字、有沒有規劃、有沒有策略？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是明年才啟動的方案，從明年開始算4年……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在已經馬上要10月了，不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎？我們不用OKR，也不用KPI嗎？我們就隨便喊一個20萬？那我們要不要喊200萬、2,000萬？"],["吳主任委員誠文：20萬是包含到……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以AI人才的培育和國科會到底有沒有關係？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，當然有關係啊！就是我講的，科研人才是國發會主政的，所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們翻開國科會預算書的第1頁，國科會的年度施政目標，當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議，行政院主辦這個會議，由國科會來主導，會議的目的本來就是對未來10到20年的科技發展要提供建言。想請問一下主委，您接任政委後，有沒有去翻閱一下當時行政院科技顧問會議的會議紀錄？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的紀錄。"],["葛委員如鈞：您上任已經一段時間了，那沒關係，我幫你看。其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體以及AI人才，就是你們的結論嘛！策略方向第一，結果20萬到底要培育多少名，目前是沒有概念，現在已經快要進入10月了！"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，下世代半導體及AI人才如果是國科會主政的部分，就是科研人才……"],["葛委員如鈞：科研人才？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的……"],["葛委員如鈞：20萬裡面到底要占多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科研的人力不需要到非常的多……"],["葛委員如鈞：非科研的人力呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：非科研的人力……"],["葛委員如鈞：誰要負責？非科研的人力誰負責？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們行政院各部會都要負責……"],["葛委員如鈞：什麼部會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：包含經濟部、數位發展部，甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等，我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力。"],["葛委員如鈞：講到人才不需要教育部嗎？台下就有我的老師啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，教育部也要。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是我們其實有看到在這樣的一個會議當中，相關的產業會議裡面，有國科會、經濟部、數發部跟國發會共同推動，但是裡面竟然沒有教育部，主委有沒有發現？"],["吳主任委員誠文：教育部應該在裡面的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想要跟主委同步一下，培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦！你剛剛提的也對，國科會做科研的人才，但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才，這個應該是要代代相傳，一棒接一棒，棒棒都是強棒嘛！我告訴主委，您剛剛提到的，很多的會議，教育部都不是與會單位，所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題，包含臺灣競爭力的永續，國科會如果認為AI人才的培育，教育部也有責任，國科會是不是有轉知會議的結論給教育部的責任呢？在後續的工作會議裡面，是不是有邀請教育部來參與？這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討，到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來？到底明年到底會有多少名？不然的話，我們這個數字就亂喊嘛！我喊20萬也可以，我喊2萬也可以，我喊200萬也可以啊！是吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，人才培育逐年目標，我們會把它規劃出來。我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通，我們的陳炳宇副主委跟教育部的葉丙成次長其實是有固定溝通的平臺……"],["葛委員如鈞：分進合擊啊！這個固定的溝通也讓我們瞭解，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：否則我們會覺得這個人才培育的數字也不清楚，計畫也不清楚，教育部跟國科會合作到底在其中扮演什麼角色，我們是沒有看到的。","臺灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂，美國在台協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書，其中一就寫著，人才是臺灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎，培育人才是我們發展的基石、國家競爭力的根本。它寫得很委婉，但是我要再次提醒，2015年我們就已經被評定，2021年的人才供需落差可能會到-1.5%，9月27日、28日我們才剛辦理臺灣AI一個非常重要的年會，其中才不斷地被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%。注意！這是缺口的成長率，不是人才的成長率喔！這些數字您如果看到了，AI人才培育難道不會是國科會重要的責任嗎？","我們再來給你看一下。這個7%我們剛剛提過了。根據審計部最新的決算報告，國科會從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構延攬優秀人才及研究學者，其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到22次，但是隨著計畫的結束，我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界，比例非常的低，甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正，變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打工仔，我說10次到22次的補助可能已經變長期打工仔，你的人才永續會永續到這裡來，我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃的角色，會不會變成人才黑洞？博士進來就出不去了。","我想請教一下主委，國科會有沒有一些理解，有沒有改進的措施，如何活絡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的確也看到這個問題，很謝謝委員再次提醒，我們接下來下年度的這個計畫已經有做一些調整，調整就是要擴散我們AI的應用，所以我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：這些博士生已經拿了10次到22次的補助了，他們既沒有進學研機構，也沒有進到中研院，也沒有進到其他的地方，這些就一直停在這個中間嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們要發展產業，發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主創新系統的開發，而且……"],["葛委員如鈞：但您剛剛說要做的是科研人才，你們是要做產業，還是要做科研人才？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員希望國科會也協助產業發展，所以我們培養的人才……"],["葛委員如鈞：我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在學界這個教師的員額本來就不會再成長，我們的人口結構在變化，所以一定要往產業發展，美國也是這個樣子……"],["葛委員如鈞：我跟主委交流一下。第一、教育現場說，目前聘不到教師；中研院也有跟我們交流，回復說中研院還有人員的編列名額，沒有聘滿。跟您說的是不一致的喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是人才有些適合產業發展，有些適合在學界發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：他們也沒去學界，也沒去產業，我們剛剛提的是這些人啊！他們去哪裡？繼續停在那裡嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛講的就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多，所以我們要從產業發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們產業發展得不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在在應用面還不夠……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以科研人才沒有出路是產業發展得不好，這樣是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是其中一個原因……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，主委……"],["吳主任委員誠文：或者我們大學培養的科研人力素質還沒有到自己……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，AI產業是由國科會主導，AI基本法也是您先提出預告版本，所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀集教育部、中研院等相關單位進行研議，提出具體的、有策略的解決方案？而不是只是開會與會議結論而已，能不能請國科會於6個月內將研議結果以書面回復給本席？6個月真的有點太長了，AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了，可不可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不用6個月，我們年底就有，因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案，已經有了……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，早一點讓我們知道……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是、是。"],["葛委員如鈞：不然，我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼喊的。","接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續，因為沒有能源，怎麼會有AI？想請教一下，核能是不是零碳，是不是淨零計畫當中的一個作法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個不是我能判斷的……"],["葛委員如鈞：不是你能判斷的？你須不須要知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，我們支持科研，科研的這個項目……"],["葛委員如鈞：核能不是禁忌詞，好不好？我直接幫你講出來，COP28共22國都說核能在2050年以前要增加2到3倍……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我本來就提過……"],["葛委員如鈞：它是零碳的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我本來就提過，只要是能夠確保安全，避免民眾的疑慮，任何能源的研究，我們都會支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好！請教主委，國科會是不是認為SMR（小型模組化核反應器）是一個值得研究的議題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們學研的這個計畫，學界提出任何能源的研究方向，我們都會尊重……"],["葛委員如鈞：值得？值得不值得？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們都會支持，對。"],["葛委員如鈞：值得嘛！您如果認為SMR值得研究，但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎？110萬新臺幣！我是客氣一點，連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊！主委，您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可是我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫，只要學界願意提出……"],["葛委員如鈞：那有沒有鼓勵？要不要鼓勵？我們不是要淨零嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們鼓勵啊！我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究，我們是鼓勵的，只要……"],["葛委員如鈞：那您鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要審查，我們都是學界公開審查，這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻，我們當然會支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，所以我幫您回顧一下，在2022年，您當時是工研院的首席技術專家，您的建議是SMR應該要納入思考範疇，才能夠兼顧企業競爭力及環保政策。換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋，您的看法是不是還是相同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是鼓勵啊！我鼓勵任何能源的研究，所以……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是鼓勵SMR？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要提……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是想法是一致的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要提出具體的、好的這個計畫，通過審查，我們都一定會同意的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦！我想世界為了成就淨零碳排的目標，其實全世界的人都在推動相關更多的能源、更充足的能源，OpenAI的執行長Sam Altman擔任董事長，還不只是核融合，還有核能新創公司──Oklo，就是做SMR的，他甚至也說，要降低科技的成本──AI及能源，而最佳的解決方式就是SMR。跟您的看法相同，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：任何新的核能技術，只要能夠確保安全，對人類社會有益，去除民眾的疑慮，我們都會支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：甲骨文還要做更多的，3座小型核電廠的建照，它都要拿到了，目前興建中的全世界各國也都還有……"],["主席：葛委員，已經超過30秒了。"],["葛委員如鈞：到底我們要不要發展SMR？"],["主席：主委，是不是後續再跟葛委員報告，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，有了，我們有約時間。"],["主席：因為時間已經超過了。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦！我希望國科會早日克服心魔，能夠提高我們對於能源充足、AI研發人才的這個議題，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，你們再後續。主委，請回，謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢。","再來，請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}}