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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 526.456, \"end\": 526.796, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 526.796, \"end\": 526.936, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 526.936, \"end\": 527.016, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 527.016, \"end\": 528.538, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"牛\", \"start\": 528.538, \"end\": 528.698, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 528.698, \"end\": 528.858, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"廷\", \"start\": 528.858, \"end\": 529.058, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 529.058, \"end\": 529.078, \"score\": 0.212}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,035 --> 00:00:05,539\n謝謝主席啊這個內政部部長有請請部長\n\n2\n00:00:17,864 --> 00:00:35,415\n這次我們修正這個都更條例第六十五條這個把實施容積管之前已經申請建造並於實施容積管之後才興建完成的合法建築納入這個都更獎勵容積的範圍之內目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願這個立法的目的本其實是贊同嘛\n\n3\n00:00:35,575 --> 00:00:59,420\n因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度這個當然沒有問題因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前他其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人那實際上入住的人本來就比較多嘛那因為有交換的問題嘛所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃這個政策這個目的跟方向本期是理解不過本期也要在這個地方提醒我們的中央單位要重演把關因為\n\n4\n00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:17,553\n其實近年來這個很多的學界也好或者一些公民團體其實對於這個都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多的批評指教包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等這樣子的一些狀況這個當然你今天要一一細數這個時間不夠專案討論就好但是要提醒我們的這個內政部\n\n5\n00:01:24,238 --> 00:01:50,259\n要重演把關也就是說建商的利潤不可以無限上綱這要很小心的拿捏平衡也就是說我們既要推動都更讓他有利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成這個草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套\n\n6\n00:01:51,991 --> 00:01:53,192\n二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具\n\n7\n00:02:10,402 --> 00:02:38,084\n建商拿走的容積獎勵蓋得很高可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶嘛你要丟給社區租屋社區租屋講這是開放空間啊對不對政府要進來圍管又很奇怪他好像是私人產權這常常變成一個真空地帶然後衍生了很多的問題本期過去的選區比如說以前的國家蓋的眷村改建大樓那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態這其實是一個很大的問題那我今天去提這個問題的原因是什麼呢是因為\n\n8\n00:02:39,365 --> 00:02:57,779\n當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務\n\n9\n00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:19,254\n公權力介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題?部長你對這個事情有瞭解嗎?為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況?要怎麼解決?我瞭解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條方向上我支持但我們希望配套完善嘛對不對?\n\n10\n00:03:19,774 --> 00:03:21,215\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n11\n00:03:38,042 --> 00:03:54,231\n一方面我們是希望說大樓的管委會可以跟外面的民眾做一個比較好的溝通不要大家好像互相敵意相向那一方面就是說大樓已經蓋好了那你又不能跟他講那對不起如果你不提供給私人用的話呢那我就大樓的再給你取消他不行他已經蓋好了他硬體建設已經弄好了\n\n12\n00:03:54,991 --> 00:03:56,952\n二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案\n\n13\n00:04:16,292 --> 00:04:32,604\n國土署要補充嗎?跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼?因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題所以\n\n14\n00:04:35,046 --> 00:04:36,167\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n15\n00:04:50,573 --> 00:05:12,338\n或許在早期並沒有想到這一點,所以才會有這一類的問題產生。我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案。當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開,我還給他一個月的時間,所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事。以前有很多過去的案例,剛剛部長有講,過去已經變成僵局的,你要去處理很困難。\n\n16\n00:05:13,098 --> 00:05:28,563\n但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是清北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛\n\n17\n00:05:28,803 --> 00:05:49,030\n要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工之後你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金\n\n18\n00:05:49,690 --> 00:06:10,884\n那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個\n\n19\n00:06:11,809 --> 00:06:32,916\n要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的\n\n20\n00:06:33,996 --> 00:06:36,537\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n21\n00:06:51,584 --> 00:06:55,347\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n22\n00:07:12,020 --> 00:07:34,605\n這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊\n\n23\n00:07:37,866 --> 00:08:05,021\n此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎\n\n24\n00:08:06,425 --> 00:08:25,519\n報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。\n\n25\n00:08:28,581 --> 00:08:49,078\n我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4035\t5539\t謝謝主席啊這個內政部部長有請請部長\n17864\t35415\t這次我們修正這個都更條例第六十五條這個把實施容積管之前已經申請建造並於實施容積管之後才興建完成的合法建築納入這個都更獎勵容積的範圍之內目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願這個立法的目的本其實是贊同嘛\n35575\t59420\t因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度這個當然沒有問題因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前他其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人那實際上入住的人本來就比較多嘛那因為有交換的問題嘛所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃這個政策這個目的跟方向本期是理解不過本期也要在這個地方提醒我們的中央單位要重演把關因為\n60720\t77553\t其實近年來這個很多的學界也好或者一些公民團體其實對於這個都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多的批評指教包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等這樣子的一些狀況這個當然你今天要一一細數這個時間不夠專案討論就好但是要提醒我們的這個內政部\n84238\t110259\t要重演把關也就是說建商的利潤不可以無限上綱這要很小心的拿捏平衡也就是說我們既要推動都更讓他有利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成這個草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套\n111991\t113192\t二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具\n130402\t158084\t建商拿走的容積獎勵蓋得很高可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶嘛你要丟給社區租屋社區租屋講這是開放空間啊對不對政府要進來圍管又很奇怪他好像是私人產權這常常變成一個真空地帶然後衍生了很多的問題本期過去的選區比如說以前的國家蓋的眷村改建大樓那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態這其實是一個很大的問題那我今天去提這個問題的原因是什麼呢是因為\n159365\t177779\t當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務\n178800\t199254\t公權力介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題?部長你對這個事情有瞭解嗎?為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況?要怎麼解決?我瞭解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條方向上我支持但我們希望配套完善嘛 對不對?\n199774\t201215\t第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n218042\t234231\t一方面我們是希望說大樓的管委會可以跟外面的民眾做一個比較好的溝通不要大家好像互相敵意相向那一方面就是說大樓已經蓋好了那你又不能跟他講那對不起如果你不提供給私人用的話呢那我就大樓的再給你取消他不行他已經蓋好了他硬體建設已經弄好了\n234991\t236952\t二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案\n256292\t272604\t國土署要補充嗎?跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼?因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題所以\n275046\t276167\t第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n290573\t312338\t或許在早期並沒有想到這一點,所以才會有這一類的問題產生。我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案。當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開,我還給他一個月的時間,所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事。以前有很多過去的案例,剛剛部長有講,過去已經變成僵局的,你要去處理很困難。\n313098\t328563\t但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是清北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛\n328803\t349030\t要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工之後你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金\n349690\t370884\t那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個\n371809\t392916\t要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的\n393996\t396537\t第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n411584\t415347\t第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n432020\t454605\t這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊\n457866\t485021\t此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎\n486425\t505519\t報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。\n508581\t529078\t我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席啊這個內政部部長有請請部長\n這次我們修正這個都更條例第六十五條這個把實施容積管之前已經申請建造並於實施容積管之後才興建完成的合法建築納入這個都更獎勵容積的範圍之內目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願這個立法的目的本其實是贊同嘛\n因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度這個當然沒有問題因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前他其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人那實際上入住的人本來就比較多嘛那因為有交換的問題嘛所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃這個政策這個目的跟方向本期是理解不過本期也要在這個地方提醒我們的中央單位要重演把關因為\n其實近年來這個很多的學界也好或者一些公民團體其實對於這個都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多的批評指教包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等這樣子的一些狀況這個當然你今天要一一細數這個時間不夠專案討論就好但是要提醒我們的這個內政部\n要重演把關也就是說建商的利潤不可以無限上綱這要很小心的拿捏平衡也就是說我們既要推動都更讓他有利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成這個草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套\n二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具\n建商拿走的容積獎勵蓋得很高可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶嘛你要丟給社區租屋社區租屋講這是開放空間啊對不對政府要進來圍管又很奇怪他好像是私人產權這常常變成一個真空地帶然後衍生了很多的問題本期過去的選區比如說以前的國家蓋的眷村改建大樓那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態這其實是一個很大的問題那我今天去提這個問題的原因是什麼呢是因為\n當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務\n公權力介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題?部長你對這個事情有瞭解嗎?為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況?要怎麼解決?我瞭解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條方向上我支持但我們希望配套完善嘛 對不對?\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n一方面我們是希望說大樓的管委會可以跟外面的民眾做一個比較好的溝通不要大家好像互相敵意相向那一方面就是說大樓已經蓋好了那你又不能跟他講那對不起如果你不提供給私人用的話呢那我就大樓的再給你取消他不行他已經蓋好了他硬體建設已經弄好了\n二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案\n國土署要補充嗎?跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼?因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題所以\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n或許在早期並沒有想到這一點,所以才會有這一類的問題產生。我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案。當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開,我還給他一個月的時間,所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事。以前有很多過去的案例,剛剛部長有講,過去已經變成僵局的,你要去處理很困難。\n但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是清北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛\n要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工之後你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金\n那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個\n要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊\n此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎\n報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。\n我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.035 --> 00:05.539\n謝謝主席啊這個內政部部長有請請部長\n\n00:17.864 --> 00:35.415\n這次我們修正這個都更條例第六十五條這個把實施容積管之前已經申請建造並於實施容積管之後才興建完成的合法建築納入這個都更獎勵容積的範圍之內目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願這個立法的目的本其實是贊同嘛\n\n00:35.575 --> 00:59.420\n因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度這個當然沒有問題因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前他其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人那實際上入住的人本來就比較多嘛那因為有交換的問題嘛所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃這個政策這個目的跟方向本期是理解不過本期也要在這個地方提醒我們的中央單位要重演把關因為\n\n01:00.720 --> 01:17.553\n其實近年來這個很多的學界也好或者一些公民團體其實對於這個都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多的批評指教包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等這樣子的一些狀況這個當然你今天要一一細數這個時間不夠專案討論就好但是要提醒我們的這個內政部\n\n01:24.238 --> 01:50.259\n要重演把關也就是說建商的利潤不可以無限上綱這要很小心的拿捏平衡也就是說我們既要推動都更讓他有利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成這個草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套\n\n01:51.991 --> 01:53.192\n二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具\n\n02:10.402 --> 02:38.084\n建商拿走的容積獎勵蓋得很高可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶嘛你要丟給社區租屋社區租屋講這是開放空間啊對不對政府要進來圍管又很奇怪他好像是私人產權這常常變成一個真空地帶然後衍生了很多的問題本期過去的選區比如說以前的國家蓋的眷村改建大樓那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態這其實是一個很大的問題那我今天去提這個問題的原因是什麼呢是因為\n\n02:39.365 --> 02:57.779\n當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務\n\n02:58.800 --> 03:19.254\n公權力介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題?部長你對這個事情有瞭解嗎?為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況?要怎麼解決?我瞭解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條方向上我支持但我們希望配套完善嘛對不對?\n\n03:19.774 --> 03:21.215\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n03:38.042 --> 03:54.231\n一方面我們是希望說大樓的管委會可以跟外面的民眾做一個比較好的溝通不要大家好像互相敵意相向那一方面就是說大樓已經蓋好了那你又不能跟他講那對不起如果你不提供給私人用的話呢那我就大樓的再給你取消他不行他已經蓋好了他硬體建設已經弄好了\n\n03:54.991 --> 03:56.952\n二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案\n\n04:16.292 --> 04:32.604\n國土署要補充嗎?跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼?因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題所以\n\n04:35.046 --> 04:36.167\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n04:50.573 --> 05:12.338\n或許在早期並沒有想到這一點,所以才會有這一類的問題產生。我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案。當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開,我還給他一個月的時間,所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事。以前有很多過去的案例,剛剛部長有講,過去已經變成僵局的,你要去處理很困難。\n\n05:13.098 --> 05:28.563\n但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是清北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛\n\n05:28.803 --> 05:49.030\n要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工之後你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金\n\n05:49.690 --> 06:10.884\n那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個\n\n06:11.809 --> 06:32.916\n要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的\n\n06:33.996 --> 06:36.537\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n06:51.584 --> 06:55.347\n第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署\n\n07:12.020 --> 07:34.605\n這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊\n\n07:37.866 --> 08:05.021\n此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎\n\n08:06.425 --> 08:25.519\n報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。\n\n08:28.581 --> 08:49.078\n我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.035,"end":5.539,"text":"謝謝主席啊這個內政部部長有請請部長"},{"start":17.864,"end":35.415,"text":"這次我們修正這個都更條例第六十五條這個把實施容積管之前已經申請建造並於實施容積管之後才興建完成的合法建築納入這個都更獎勵容積的範圍之內目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願這個立法的目的本其實是贊同嘛"},{"start":35.575,"end":59.42,"text":"因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度這個當然沒有問題因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前他其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人那實際上入住的人本來就比較多嘛那因為有交換的問題嘛所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃這個政策這個目的跟方向本期是理解不過本期也要在這個地方提醒我們的中央單位要重演把關因為"},{"start":60.72,"end":77.553,"text":"其實近年來這個很多的學界也好或者一些公民團體其實對於這個都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多的批評指教包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等這樣子的一些狀況這個當然你今天要一一細數這個時間不夠專案討論就好但是要提醒我們的這個內政部"},{"start":84.238,"end":110.259,"text":"要重演把關也就是說建商的利潤不可以無限上綱這要很小心的拿捏平衡也就是說我們既要推動都更讓他有利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成這個草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套"},{"start":111.991,"end":113.192,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":130.402,"end":158.084,"text":"建商拿走的容積獎勵蓋得很高可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶嘛你要丟給社區租屋社區租屋講這是開放空間啊對不對政府要進來圍管又很奇怪他好像是私人產權這常常變成一個真空地帶然後衍生了很多的問題本期過去的選區比如說以前的國家蓋的眷村改建大樓那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態這其實是一個很大的問題那我今天去提這個問題的原因是什麼呢是因為"},{"start":159.365,"end":177.779,"text":"當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務"},{"start":178.8,"end":199.254,"text":"公權力介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題?部長你對這個事情有瞭解嗎?為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況?要怎麼解決?我瞭解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條方向上我支持但我們希望配套完善嘛 對不對?"},{"start":199.774,"end":201.215,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":218.042,"end":234.231,"text":"一方面我們是希望說大樓的管委會可以跟外面的民眾做一個比較好的溝通不要大家好像互相敵意相向那一方面就是說大樓已經蓋好了那你又不能跟他講那對不起如果你不提供給私人用的話呢那我就大樓的再給你取消他不行他已經蓋好了他硬體建設已經弄好了"},{"start":234.991,"end":236.952,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":256.292,"end":272.604,"text":"國土署要補充嗎?跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼?因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題所以"},{"start":275.046,"end":276.167,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":290.573,"end":312.338,"text":"或許在早期並沒有想到這一點,所以才會有這一類的問題產生。我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案。當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開,我還給他一個月的時間,所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事。以前有很多過去的案例,剛剛部長有講,過去已經變成僵局的,你要去處理很困難。"},{"start":313.098,"end":328.563,"text":"但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是清北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛"},{"start":328.803,"end":349.03,"text":"要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工之後你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金"},{"start":349.69,"end":370.884,"text":"那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個"},{"start":371.809,"end":392.916,"text":"要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的"},{"start":393.996,"end":396.537,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":411.584,"end":415.347,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":432.02,"end":454.605,"text":"這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊"},{"start":457.866,"end":485.021,"text":"此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎"},{"start":486.425,"end":505.519,"text":"報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。"},{"start":508.581,"end":529.078,"text":"我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:41:52 - 10:50:42","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":154979,"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時41分）謝謝主席，內政部部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：牛委員你好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。"],["劉部長世芳：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一次我們修正都更條例第六十五條，把實施容積管制前已經申請建造，並於實施容積管制後才興建完成的合法建築，納入都更獎勵容積的範圍之內，目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願。這個立法的目的本席是贊同，因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度，這個當然沒有問題，因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前，它其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人，實際上入住的人本來就比較多，那因為有交換的問題，所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃政策，這個目的跟方向本席是理解。","不過，本席也要在這個地方提醒中央單位要從嚴把關，因為近年來很多的學界也好，或者一些公民團體，對於都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多批評指教，包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等狀況。當然今天你要一一細數，時間不夠，專案討論就好，但是提醒內政部要從嚴把關，建商的利潤不可以無限上綱，這要很小心地拿捏平衡，也就是我們既要推動都更讓它有利可圖，才有辦法推動政策，但是不要一個不小心就變成炒房炒地的幫兇，讓建商的利潤無限上綱，本席要在這個地方做善意提醒。","我舉一個例子，比如容積獎勵跟它後面相關的一些政策，我也希望中央單位有好的配套。比如所謂的開放空間這樣子的機制，過去很多社區，尤其新的大樓裡面都有所謂的開放空間，立意非常好，也就是我這個中庭開放給大家做花園，周邊老舊社區的居民也可以進來走一走，運動一下，概念是非常好的。可是實務上的問題是什麼？建商拿走了容積獎勵蓋得很高，可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶。你要丟給社區住戶，社區住戶講這是開放空間，對不對？政府要進來維管又很奇怪，它好像是私人產權，就常常變成一個真空地帶，然後衍生了很多問題。本席過去的選區，比如以前國家蓋的眷村改建大樓，那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態，這其實是一個很大的問題。","我今天提這個問題的原因是什麼？是因為當初說導入開放空間，目標就是所謂的增進公共利益，所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵，可是你取得獎勵之後，顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務。中央既然有授予容積獎勵做一個政策的誘因，但是後面有沒有追蹤管理，有沒有課以義務？公權力介入之後，有沒有帶來所謂成本外部化的問題？部長，你對這個事情有了解嗎？為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞問的狀況，要怎麼解決？"],["劉部長世芳：我了解您講的部分，先說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條的修正……"],["牛委員煦庭：方向上我支持。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我們希望配套完善，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。但是我現在碰到的困難就會像你所想的一樣，就是他在當時建造的時候說這叫公共空間，大家都可以用。可是他建完了以後，這個公共空間可能用很多圍籬或其他的方式……"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：把它圍起來，等於只有社區的住戶可以用，其他人不能用。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：那外面的人要過來用的時候就會產生爭執。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：一方面我們是希望大樓的管委會可以跟外面民眾做一個比較好的溝通，不要大家好像彼此敵意相向。那一方面就是，大樓已經蓋好了，又不能跟他講「那對不起，如果你不提供給私人用的話，那我這大樓的再給你取消」。不行，它已經蓋好了。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：硬體建設已經弄好了。所以這方面我們要怎麼樣做比較好的管制或管理，確實是比較頭痛。我們也知道有管得很好的地方，但目前為止，如果你要制定其他的獎跟懲的話，確實是比較不容易，因為不容易處理獎跟懲，還有地方政府通常他們的公務單位也比較不願意介入。我們現在國土署有一些看法，提供給牛委員參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：國土署要補充嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，早期的眷村改建或是國宅，其實大概都普遍存在像委員所提到的這些問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["吳署長欣修：為什麼？因為早期在改建的時候，還沒有導入公寓大廈管理條例的規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，一樣嘛！有制度前後的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：對，制度前後的問題。所以之前國宅在交的時候，我們除了要協助他們成立管委會以外，也會挹注一定的資金放到公寓大廈的管理基金。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。我也要跟你討論這個問題。"],["吳署長欣修：其實關鍵在這裡，所以眷村早期在做的時候，或許在早期還沒有想到這一點，才會有這一類的問題產生。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望中央有針對這個問題的一套解決方案，當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開，我要給內政部1個月的時間，研擬一下，我們怎麼樣完善這件事。有很多過去的案例，剛剛部長有講，過去已經變成僵局的你要去處理很困難。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是除了解決沈痾之外，未來可能發生的你要防患杜絕於前。比如現在，你看一下投影片，這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法，這個是新北市的規定，它其實有寫公共開放空間要有管理維護基金。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：而且理應專款專用。臺北市也一樣。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是應該要有所謂的維護費用。但是實務上，比如包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村、國宅，在完工之後，你也撥了一筆錢，可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡？其實整筆都進到所謂社區的管理基金，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問從社區管理的角度，它會先修自己的比如電梯、外牆，它是不是以這個為優先？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以變成你這一筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面，沒有辦法專款專用，這就是問題。如果國土署、內政部能夠針對這樣的問題提出一套解決方案，其實也不錯，對不對？","所以本席有幾個政策的建議，第一個，要把管理維護的責任納入規約草約。你不是等到大樓規約了之後再來修訂，是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這棟大樓房子的住戶先講，先讓他了解未來你有養護開放空間的義務，讓住戶提早有觀念，這可不可以做？這其實可以做，而且相對來講它沒有那麼困難。","第二個，要訂立所謂的管理維護計畫，這個你就要求建商，對不對？我們常常給建商一大堆容積獎勵，你給它多少容積獎勵是沒有關係，但是你要課予它一定的義務。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：當你申請開放空間的時候，你就要有管理維護計畫的義務。它不只是說我繳了一筆錢，這個事就沒事了耶！我這筆錢要怎麼用、為什麼要編這筆錢？詳細的計畫、資訊的揭露要做，然後你再加上我所謂的提撥管理基金，是不是未來這些大樓的管委會去承接這個東西，有憑有據，我的規約草約有寫了、住戶知道了，建商的相關計畫也都做好了，你未來再講我要養護，我是不是有專款？它就比較能夠實踐專款專用的精神。","第三個，如果你願意，真正有魄力一點，或者你介入性要強一點的話，你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來，也就是有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間管理的相關基金，這筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面，就直接落實專款專用，這也是一種方法。","其實這些東西都是政府可以做，而且它是相對簡單的事情。我希望用今天的時間，因為我們討論容積獎勵，討論未來越來越多的大樓，這個遲早都是大家要面對的事。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做參考，那當然如果部長、署長針對開放空間沒辦法處理的問題有好的作法，本席也非常歡迎，政府願不願意扮演一定的角色？既然它都開放給大眾使用，多一點、有開放空間，願意配合，我多給一點補貼，這也是政策誘因的示範，對不對？所以我希望部長，針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討，是不是花一點時間給我們一點回復，包括政策的方向，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您講的方向非常正確，我們也願意從善如流，但是1個月時間確實比較短，因為第一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：太短了是吧？"],["劉部長世芳：不，我的意思就是，可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位……"],["吳署長欣修：地方政府要召開……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以，沒關係。"],["劉部長世芳：要跟他們溝通。而且還包括你所講的，如果要設立專款專用的話，恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，可能要調整。好，沒關係。"],["劉部長世芳：所以1個月確實是太短的時間，我儘量在……"],["牛委員煦庭：我給部長一個會期……"],["劉部長世芳：好，那……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個會期我們就追蹤這個事。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問，沒有，我就隨時滾動……"],["劉部長世芳：我們把它列入追蹤。"],["牛委員煦庭：那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟新的進展，也要跟我們報告，可以嗎？這樣我很有誠意嘛！我們希望在這個題目上看到成果，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝牛煦庭委員。接下來我們請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}}