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\"我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 571.977, \"end\": 572.377, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 572.377, \"end\": 572.737, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 572.737, \"end\": 573.317, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 573.317, \"end\": 573.457, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 573.457, \"end\": 577.318, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 577.318, \"end\": 577.478, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 577.478, \"end\": 577.658, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 577.658, \"end\": 577.838, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 577.838, \"end\": 578.018, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"永\", \"start\": 578.018, \"end\": 578.539, 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0.901}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 599.944, \"end\": 600.244, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 600.244, \"end\": 600.524, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 600.524, \"end\": 600.604, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 600.604, \"end\": 600.744, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 600.744, \"end\": 600.924, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 600.924, \"end\": 600.944, \"score\": 0.859}]}, {\"start\": 601.954, \"end\": 629.071, \"text\": \"他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 601.954, \"end\": 601.994, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 601.994, \"end\": 602.134, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 602.134, \"end\": 602.294, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 602.294, \"end\": 602.514, \"score\": 0.912}, 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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 624.488, \"end\": 624.748, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 624.748, \"end\": 624.968, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 624.968, \"end\": 625.229, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 625.229, \"end\": 625.389, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 625.389, \"end\": 626.469, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 626.469, \"end\": 626.73, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"隨\"}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 626.73, \"end\": 627.01, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 627.01, \"end\": 627.19, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 627.19, \"end\": 627.37, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 627.37, \"end\": 627.51, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 627.51, \"end\": 627.65, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 627.65, \"end\": 627.77, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 627.77, \"end\": 628.311, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 628.311, \"end\": 628.411, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 628.411, \"end\": 628.671, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 628.671, \"end\": 628.911, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 628.911, \"end\": 629.051, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 629.051, \"end\": 629.071, \"score\": 0.276}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}]}, {\"start\": 631.101, \"end\": 633.043, \"text\": \"2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 631.101, \"end\": 631.121, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 631.121, \"end\": 631.261, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 631.261, \"end\": 631.281, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 734.211, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"昌\", \"start\": 734.211, \"end\": 734.251, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 734.251, \"end\": 734.271, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,146 --> 00:00:30,312\n謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委好委員長好主委長主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量\n\n2\n00:00:31,363 --> 00:00:40,279\n我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字啊108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件\n\n3\n00:00:42,241 --> 00:01:09,412\n我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了80幾億辦那個花博\n\n4\n00:01:12,435 --> 00:01:37,349\n阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個\n\n5\n00:01:46,052 --> 00:02:06,222\n這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分\n\n6\n00:02:07,372 --> 00:02:31,495\n列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差\n\n7\n00:02:33,404 --> 00:02:43,887\n很差啦但這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎\n\n8\n00:02:47,419 --> 00:03:06,675\n這個閒置空間的列管是工程會的被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校\n\n9\n00:03:07,856 --> 00:03:32,917\n各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦\n\n10\n00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:51,541\n副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查\n\n11\n00:03:52,822 --> 00:04:16,510\n那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法\n\n12\n00:04:17,350 --> 00:04:20,091\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n13\n00:04:48,670 --> 00:05:00,143\n這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個\n\n14\n00:05:02,290 --> 00:05:03,391\n蔡其昌\n\n15\n00:05:18,323 --> 00:05:42,182\n又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌\n\n16\n00:05:43,343 --> 00:05:53,887\n不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管\n\n17\n00:05:56,957 --> 00:06:15,935\n我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用\n\n18\n00:06:16,215 --> 00:06:42,723\n委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁\n\n19\n00:06:44,031 --> 00:07:10,632\n這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習\n\n20\n00:07:12,343 --> 00:07:12,503\n蔡其昌\n\n21\n00:07:25,410 --> 00:07:41,480\n行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔\n\n22\n00:07:43,101 --> 00:07:58,622\n棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙\n\n23\n00:07:59,841 --> 00:08:22,579\n主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中\n\n24\n00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:39,675\n像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子\n\n25\n00:08:40,416 --> 00:09:00,769\n我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府\n\n26\n00:09:02,093 --> 00:09:30,043\n好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面\n\n27\n00:09:31,977 --> 00:10:00,944\n我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做\n\n28\n00:10:01,954 --> 00:10:29,071\n他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12\n\n29\n00:10:31,101 --> 00:10:33,043\n2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面\n\n30\n00:10:48,547 --> 00:11:13,397\n我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是\n\n31\n00:11:14,673 --> 00:11:19,959\n你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的\n\n32\n00:11:21,547 --> 00:11:30,974\n對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成\n\n33\n00:11:46,986 --> 00:12:11,763\n所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的\n\n34\n00:12:13,991 --> 00:12:14,271\n蔡其昌委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8146\t30312\t謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委好委員長好主委長主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量\n31363\t40279\t我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字啊108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件\n42241\t69412\t我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了80幾億辦那個花博\n72435\t97349\t阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個\n106052\t126222\t這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分\n127372\t151495\t列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差\n153404\t163887\t很差啦但這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎\n167419\t186675\t這個閒置空間的列管是工程會的被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大 比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校\n187856\t212917\t各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦\n214720\t231541\t副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查\n232822\t256510\t那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法\n257350\t260091\t委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n288670\t300143\t這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個\n302290\t303391\t蔡其昌\n318323\t342182\t又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌\n343343\t353887\t不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管\n356957\t375935\t我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用\n376215\t402723\t委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁\n404031\t430632\t這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習\n432343\t432503\t蔡其昌\n445410\t461480\t行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔\n463101\t478622\t棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙\n479841\t502579\t主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中\n503280\t519675\t像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子\n520416\t540769\t我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府\n542093\t570043\t好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面\n571977\t600944\t我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做\n601954\t629071\t他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12\n631101\t633043\t2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面\n648547\t673397\t我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是\n674673\t679959\t你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的\n681547\t690974\t對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成\n706986\t731763\t所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的\n733991\t734271\t蔡其昌委員質詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委好委員長好主委長主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量\n我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字啊108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件\n我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了80幾億辦那個花博\n阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個\n這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分\n列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差\n很差啦但這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎\n這個閒置空間的列管是工程會的被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大 比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校\n各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦\n副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查\n那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個\n蔡其昌\n又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌\n不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管\n我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用\n委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁\n這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習\n蔡其昌\n行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔\n棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙\n主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中\n像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子\n我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府\n好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面\n我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做\n他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12\n2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面\n我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是\n你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的\n對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成\n所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的\n蔡其昌委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.146 --> 00:30.312\n謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委好委員長好主委長主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量\n\n00:31.363 --> 00:40.279\n我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字啊108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件\n\n00:42.241 --> 01:09.412\n我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了80幾億辦那個花博\n\n01:12.435 --> 01:37.349\n阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個\n\n01:46.052 --> 02:06.222\n這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分\n\n02:07.372 --> 02:31.495\n列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差\n\n02:33.404 --> 02:43.887\n很差啦但這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎\n\n02:47.419 --> 03:06.675\n這個閒置空間的列管是工程會的被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校\n\n03:07.856 --> 03:32.917\n各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦\n\n03:34.720 --> 03:51.541\n副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查\n\n03:52.822 --> 04:16.510\n那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法\n\n04:17.350 --> 04:20.091\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n04:48.670 --> 05:00.143\n這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個\n\n05:02.290 --> 05:03.391\n蔡其昌\n\n05:18.323 --> 05:42.182\n又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌\n\n05:43.343 --> 05:53.887\n不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管\n\n05:56.957 --> 06:15.935\n我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用\n\n06:16.215 --> 06:42.723\n委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁\n\n06:44.031 --> 07:10.632\n這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習\n\n07:12.343 --> 07:12.503\n蔡其昌\n\n07:25.410 --> 07:41.480\n行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔\n\n07:43.101 --> 07:58.622\n棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙\n\n07:59.841 --> 08:22.579\n主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中\n\n08:23.280 --> 08:39.675\n像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子\n\n08:40.416 --> 09:00.769\n我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府\n\n09:02.093 --> 09:30.043\n好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面\n\n09:31.977 --> 10:00.944\n我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做\n\n10:01.954 --> 10:29.071\n他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12\n\n10:31.101 --> 10:33.043\n2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面\n\n10:48.547 --> 11:13.397\n我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是\n\n11:14.673 --> 11:19.959\n你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的\n\n11:21.547 --> 11:30.974\n對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成\n\n11:46.986 --> 12:11.763\n所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的\n\n12:13.991 --> 12:14.271\n蔡其昌委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.146,"end":30.312,"text":"謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委好委員長好主委長主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量"},{"start":31.363,"end":40.279,"text":"我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字啊108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件"},{"start":42.241,"end":69.412,"text":"我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了80幾億辦那個花博"},{"start":72.435,"end":97.349,"text":"阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個"},{"start":106.052,"end":126.222,"text":"這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分"},{"start":127.372,"end":151.495,"text":"列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差"},{"start":153.404,"end":163.887,"text":"很差啦但這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎"},{"start":167.419,"end":186.675,"text":"這個閒置空間的列管是工程會的被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大 比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校"},{"start":187.856,"end":212.917,"text":"各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦"},{"start":214.72,"end":231.541,"text":"副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查"},{"start":232.822,"end":256.51,"text":"那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法"},{"start":257.35,"end":260.091,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":288.67,"end":300.143,"text":"這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個"},{"start":302.29,"end":303.391,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":318.323,"end":342.182,"text":"又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌"},{"start":343.343,"end":353.887,"text":"不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管"},{"start":356.957,"end":375.935,"text":"我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用"},{"start":376.215,"end":402.723,"text":"委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁"},{"start":404.031,"end":430.632,"text":"這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習"},{"start":432.343,"end":432.503,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":445.41,"end":461.48,"text":"行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔"},{"start":463.101,"end":478.622,"text":"棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙"},{"start":479.841,"end":502.579,"text":"主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中"},{"start":503.28,"end":519.675,"text":"像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子"},{"start":520.416,"end":540.769,"text":"我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府"},{"start":542.093,"end":570.043,"text":"好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面"},{"start":571.977,"end":600.944,"text":"我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做"},{"start":601.954,"end":629.071,"text":"他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12"},{"start":631.101,"end":633.043,"text":"2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面"},{"start":648.547,"end":673.397,"text":"我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是"},{"start":674.673,"end":679.959,"text":"你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的"},{"start":681.547,"end":690.974,"text":"對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成"},{"start":706.986,"end":731.763,"text":"所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的"},{"start":733.991,"end":734.271,"text":"蔡其昌委員質詢"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:11:15 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