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764.539, \"end\": 764.559, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 767.04, \"end\": 787.623, \"text\": \"所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 767.04, \"end\": 767.18, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 767.18, \"end\": 767.441, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 767.441, \"end\": 768.221, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 768.221, \"end\": 768.862, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 768.862, \"end\": 769.423, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 769.423, \"end\": 769.543, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 769.543, \"end\": 769.643, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 769.643, \"end\": 769.923, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": 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936.84, \"end\": 937.061, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 937.061, \"end\": 937.101, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 937.101, \"end\": 937.281, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 937.281, \"end\": 937.401, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 937.401, \"end\": 937.421, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 937.421, \"end\": 937.502, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 937.502, \"end\": 937.662, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 937.662, \"end\": 937.682, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,714 --> 00:00:19,579\n有沒有聲音好謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備選\n\n2\n00:00:30,709 --> 00:00:53,371\n蘇委員好院長好院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準\n\n3\n00:00:53,891 --> 00:01:23,132\n而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市\n\n4\n00:01:24,943 --> 00:01:41,798\n但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部\n\n5\n00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:59,396\n市長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的\n\n6\n00:02:00,177 --> 00:02:23,205\n反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為\n\n7\n00:02:24,145 --> 00:02:49,948\n主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表\n\n8\n00:02:52,229 --> 00:03:04,365\n有看過這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好那我就問你你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎\n\n9\n00:03:06,067 --> 00:03:08,788\n管制強度不同五種不同的管制密度\n\n10\n00:03:23,354 --> 00:03:49,743\n每一種類別確實﹖可以秀一下我的表單嗎不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一\n\n11\n00:03:53,687 --> 00:04:10,907\n我跟委員說明農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事就是同樣如果你是一個聚落如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛對不對\n\n12\n00:04:11,408 --> 00:04:11,708\n那我現在來讓你看這張圖\n\n13\n00:04:38,795 --> 00:04:47,179\n委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長\n\n14\n00:05:01,645 --> 00:05:29,051\n我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊\n\n15\n00:05:30,401 --> 00:05:51,109\n他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿\n\n16\n00:05:52,316 --> 00:06:19,223\n這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣\n\n17\n00:06:20,267 --> 00:06:26,750\n那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說欸委員啊為什麼一樣的農地點館啊我是農事啊他是成二之一啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎\n\n18\n00:06:33,931 --> 00:06:41,373\n我可以很清楚的回答但是第二到底為什麼他是農事隔壁是乘二之一這個我就不太清楚了難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號\n\n19\n00:06:58,596 --> 00:07:25,652\n所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央\n\n20\n00:07:26,713 --> 00:07:37,985\n中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎\n\n21\n00:07:44,454 --> 00:08:01,791\n是所以我的進一步主張更甚至是其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件不可能這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程\n\n22\n00:08:02,992 --> 00:08:29,739\n所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來\n\n23\n00:08:30,379 --> 00:08:47,923\n現在已經延誤了明年的4月30截止5月就開始實施這第一個再來我們希望是照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難\n\n24\n00:08:48,740 --> 00:09:06,420\n是啊所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊\n\n25\n00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:27,414\n可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦\n\n26\n00:09:28,895 --> 00:09:29,996\n內政部、農業部都非常積極請內政部說明一下他的進度\n\n27\n00:09:50,020 --> 00:10:06,601\n是謝謝委員：我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由跟我們所知道的是完全是背道而馳\n\n28\n00:10:07,202 --> 00:10:07,322\n主席\n\n29\n00:10:27,378 --> 00:10:27,418\n蘇巧慧議員\n\n30\n00:10:49,554 --> 00:11:05,021\n就表示說還是可以整理還是可以跟群眾來溝通那如果溝通上有困難需要我們解決的部分的話我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決而不是以完全說我不想這樣這件事做改觀這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能\n\n31\n00:11:05,481 --> 00:11:24,517\n而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況\n\n32\n00:11:26,859 --> 00:11:49,795\n計劃送了之後中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久\n\n33\n00:11:50,856 --> 00:12:16,671\n新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括有土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長\n\n34\n00:12:17,631 --> 00:12:44,559\n你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物歷史觀光興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎\n\n35\n00:12:47,040 --> 00:13:07,623\n所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛\n\n36\n00:13:08,183 --> 00:13:22,810\n所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是\n\n37\n00:13:23,490 --> 00:13:50,047\n我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個\n\n38\n00:13:51,448 --> 00:14:10,389\n事業目的使用計畫結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年現在在哪裡沒有人知道中央也沒有人知道地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊所以在國土計畫上路之前有相當多的配套措施也就是要讓我們\n\n39\n00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:12,391\n不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以\n\n40\n00:14:28,186 --> 00:14:49,043\n要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由鄉點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求\n\n41\n00:14:51,465 --> 00:15:06,896\n謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了\n\n42\n00:15:07,256 --> 00:15:33,822\n希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只在解決農地的問題是解決國家土地充分利用的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力\n\n43\n00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:37,682\n謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15714\t19579\t有沒有聲音好 謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備選\n30709\t53371\t蘇委員好院長好 院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準\n53891\t83132\t而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市\n84943\t101798\t但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部\n103160\t119396\t市長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的\n120177\t143205\t反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為\n144145\t169948\t主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表\n172229\t184365\t有看過 這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好 那我就問你 你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎\n186067\t188788\t管制強度不同五種不同的管制密度\n203354\t229743\t每一種類別確實﹖可以秀一下我的表單嗎不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一\n233687\t250907\t我跟委員說明 農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事就是同樣如果你是一個聚落 如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛 對不對\n251408\t251708\t那我現在來讓你看這張圖\n278795\t287179\t委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長\n301645\t329051\t我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊\n330401\t351109\t他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿\n352316\t379223\t這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣\n380267\t386750\t那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說 欸 委員啊 為什麼一樣的農地點館 啊我是農事 啊他是成二之一 啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎\n393931\t401373\t我可以很清楚的回答 但是第二到底為什麼他是農事 隔壁是乘二之一 這個我就不太清楚了 難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號\n418596\t445652\t所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央\n446713\t457985\t中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎\n464454\t481791\t是 所以我的進一步主張更甚至是 其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查 欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件 不可能 這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程\n482992\t509739\t所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來\n510379\t527923\t現在已經延誤了 明年的4月30 截止5月就開始實施 這第一個再來我們希望是 照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用 全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難\n528740\t546420\t是啊所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊\n546840\t567414\t可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦\n568895\t569996\t內政部、農業部都非常積極請內政部說明一下他的進度\n590020\t606601\t是謝謝委員：我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由跟我們所知道的是完全是背道而馳\n607202\t607322\t主席\n627378\t627418\t蘇巧慧議員\n649554\t665021\t就表示說還是可以整理還是可以跟群眾來溝通那如果溝通上有困難需要我們解決的部分的話我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決而不是以完全說我不想這樣這件事做改觀這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能\n665481\t684517\t而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況\n686859\t709795\t計劃送了之後 中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張 我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼 我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久\n710856\t736671\t新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括有土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長\n737631\t764559\t你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物 歷史 觀光 興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎\n767040\t787623\t所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛\n788183\t802810\t所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是\n803490\t830047\t我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個\n831448\t850389\t事業目的使用計畫 結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年 現在在哪裡沒有人知道 中央也沒有人知道 地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下 那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊 所以在國土計畫上路之前 有相當多的配套措施 也就是要讓我們\n851610\t852391\t不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以\n868186\t889043\t要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由鄉點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求\n891465\t906896\t謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了\n907256\t933822\t希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只在解決農地的問題是解決國家土地充分利用的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力\n936840\t937682\t謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢\n","txt":"有沒有聲音好 謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備選\n蘇委員好院長好 院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準\n而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市\n但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部\n市長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的\n反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為\n主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表\n有看過 這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好 那我就問你 你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎\n管制強度不同五種不同的管制密度\n每一種類別確實﹖可以秀一下我的表單嗎不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一\n我跟委員說明 農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事就是同樣如果你是一個聚落 如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛 對不對\n那我現在來讓你看這張圖\n委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長\n我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊\n他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿\n這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣\n那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說 欸 委員啊 為什麼一樣的農地點館 啊我是農事 啊他是成二之一 啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎\n我可以很清楚的回答 但是第二到底為什麼他是農事 隔壁是乘二之一 這個我就不太清楚了 難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號\n所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央\n中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎\n是 所以我的進一步主張更甚至是 其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查 欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件 不可能 這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程\n所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來\n現在已經延誤了 明年的4月30 截止5月就開始實施 這第一個再來我們希望是 照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用 全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難\n是啊所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊\n可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦\n內政部、農業部都非常積極請內政部說明一下他的進度\n是謝謝委員：我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由跟我們所知道的是完全是背道而馳\n主席\n蘇巧慧議員\n就表示說還是可以整理還是可以跟群眾來溝通那如果溝通上有困難需要我們解決的部分的話我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決而不是以完全說我不想這樣這件事做改觀這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能\n而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況\n計劃送了之後 中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張 我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼 我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久\n新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括有土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長\n你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物 歷史 觀光 興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎\n所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛\n所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是\n我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個\n事業目的使用計畫 結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年 現在在哪裡沒有人知道 中央也沒有人知道 地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下 那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊 所以在國土計畫上路之前 有相當多的配套措施 也就是要讓我們\n不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以\n要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由鄉點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求\n謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了\n希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只在解決農地的問題是解決國家土地充分利用的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力\n謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.714 --> 00:19.579\n有沒有聲音好謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備選\n\n00:30.709 --> 00:53.371\n蘇委員好院長好院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準\n\n00:53.891 --> 01:23.132\n而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市\n\n01:24.943 --> 01:41.798\n但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部\n\n01:43.160 --> 01:59.396\n市長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的\n\n02:00.177 --> 02:23.205\n反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為\n\n02:24.145 --> 02:49.948\n主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表\n\n02:52.229 --> 03:04.365\n有看過這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好那我就問你你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎\n\n03:06.067 --> 03:08.788\n管制強度不同五種不同的管制密度\n\n03:23.354 --> 03:49.743\n每一種類別確實﹖可以秀一下我的表單嗎不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一\n\n03:53.687 --> 04:10.907\n我跟委員說明農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事就是同樣如果你是一個聚落如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛對不對\n\n04:11.408 --> 04:11.708\n那我現在來讓你看這張圖\n\n04:38.795 --> 04:47.179\n委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長\n\n05:01.645 --> 05:29.051\n我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊\n\n05:30.401 --> 05:51.109\n他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿\n\n05:52.316 --> 06:19.223\n這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣\n\n06:20.267 --> 06:26.750\n那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說欸委員啊為什麼一樣的農地點館啊我是農事啊他是成二之一啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎\n\n06:33.931 --> 06:41.373\n我可以很清楚的回答但是第二到底為什麼他是農事隔壁是乘二之一這個我就不太清楚了難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號\n\n06:58.596 --> 07:25.652\n所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央\n\n07:26.713 --> 07:37.985\n中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎\n\n07:44.454 --> 08:01.791\n是所以我的進一步主張更甚至是其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件不可能這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程\n\n08:02.992 --> 08:29.739\n所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來\n\n08:30.379 --> 08:47.923\n現在已經延誤了明年的4月30截止5月就開始實施這第一個再來我們希望是照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難\n\n08:48.740 --> 09:06.420\n是啊所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊\n\n09:06.840 --> 09:27.414\n可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦\n\n09:28.895 --> 09:29.996\n內政部、農業部都非常積極請內政部說明一下他的進度\n\n09:50.020 --> 10:06.601\n是謝謝委員：我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由跟我們所知道的是完全是背道而馳\n\n10:07.202 --> 10:07.322\n主席\n\n10:27.378 --> 10:27.418\n蘇巧慧議員\n\n10:49.554 --> 11:05.021\n就表示說還是可以整理還是可以跟群眾來溝通那如果溝通上有困難需要我們解決的部分的話我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決而不是以完全說我不想這樣這件事做改觀這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能\n\n11:05.481 --> 11:24.517\n而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況\n\n11:26.859 --> 11:49.795\n計劃送了之後中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久\n\n11:50.856 --> 12:16.671\n新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括有土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長\n\n12:17.631 --> 12:44.559\n你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物歷史觀光興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎\n\n12:47.040 --> 13:07.623\n所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛\n\n13:08.183 --> 13:22.810\n所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是\n\n13:23.490 --> 13:50.047\n我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個\n\n13:51.448 --> 14:10.389\n事業目的使用計畫結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年現在在哪裡沒有人知道中央也沒有人知道地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊所以在國土計畫上路之前有相當多的配套措施也就是要讓我們\n\n14:11.610 --> 14:12.391\n不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以\n\n14:28.186 --> 14:49.043\n要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由鄉點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求\n\n14:51.465 --> 15:06.896\n謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了\n\n15:07.256 --> 15:33.822\n希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只在解決農地的問題是解決國家土地充分利用的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力\n\n15:36.840 --> 15:37.682\n謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.714,"end":19.579,"text":"有沒有聲音好 謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備選"},{"start":30.709,"end":53.371,"text":"蘇委員好院長好 院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準"},{"start":53.891,"end":83.132,"text":"而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市"},{"start":84.943,"end":101.798,"text":"但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部"},{"start":103.16,"end":119.396,"text":"市長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的"},{"start":120.177,"end":143.205,"text":"反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為"},{"start":144.145,"end":169.948,"text":"主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表"},{"start":172.229,"end":184.365,"text":"有看過 這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好 那我就問你 你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":186.067,"end":188.788,"text":"管制強度不同五種不同的管制密度"},{"start":203.354,"end":229.743,"text":"每一種類別確實﹖可以秀一下我的表單嗎不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一"},{"start":233.687,"end":250.907,"text":"我跟委員說明 農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事就是同樣如果你是一個聚落 如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛 對不對"},{"start":251.408,"end":251.708,"text":"那我現在來讓你看這張圖"},{"start":278.795,"end":287.179,"text":"委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長"},{"start":301.645,"end":329.051,"text":"我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊"},{"start":330.401,"end":351.109,"text":"他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿"},{"start":352.316,"end":379.223,"text":"這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣"},{"start":380.267,"end":386.75,"text":"那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說 欸 委員啊 為什麼一樣的農地點館 啊我是農事 啊他是成二之一 啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎"},{"start":393.931,"end":401.373,"text":"我可以很清楚的回答 但是第二到底為什麼他是農事 隔壁是乘二之一 這個我就不太清楚了 難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號"},{"start":418.596,"end":445.652,"text":"所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央"},{"start":446.713,"end":457.985,"text":"中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":464.454,"end":481.791,"text":"是 所以我的進一步主張更甚至是 其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查 欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件 不可能 這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程"},{"start":482.992,"end":509.739,"text":"所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來"},{"start":510.379,"end":527.923,"text":"現在已經延誤了 明年的4月30 截止5月就開始實施 這第一個再來我們希望是 照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用 全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難"},{"start":528.74,"end":546.42,"text":"是啊所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊"},{"start":546.84,"end":567.414,"text":"可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦"},{"start":568.895,"end":569.996,"text":"內政部、農業部都非常積極請內政部說明一下他的進度"},{"start":590.02,"end":606.601,"text":"是謝謝委員：我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由跟我們所知道的是完全是背道而馳"},{"start":607.202,"end":607.322,"text":"主席"},{"start":627.378,"end":627.418,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":649.554,"end":665.021,"text":"就表示說還是可以整理還是可以跟群眾來溝通那如果溝通上有困難需要我們解決的部分的話我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決而不是以完全說我不想這樣這件事做改觀這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能"},{"start":665.481,"end":684.517,"text":"而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況"},{"start":686.859,"end":709.795,"text":"計劃送了之後 中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張 我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼 我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久"},{"start":710.856,"end":736.671,"text":"新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括有土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長"},{"start":737.631,"end":764.559,"text":"你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物 歷史 觀光 興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎"},{"start":767.04,"end":787.623,"text":"所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛"},{"start":788.183,"end":802.81,"text":"所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是"},{"start":803.49,"end":830.047,"text":"我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個"},{"start":831.448,"end":850.389,"text":"事業目的使用計畫 結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年 現在在哪裡沒有人知道 中央也沒有人知道 地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下 那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊 所以在國土計畫上路之前 有相當多的配套措施 也就是要讓我們"},{"start":851.61,"end":852.391,"text":"不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以"},{"start":868.186,"end":889.043,"text":"要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由鄉點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求"},{"start":891.465,"end":906.896,"text":"謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了"},{"start":907.256,"end":933.822,"text":"希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只在解決農地的問題是解決國家土地充分利用的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力"},{"start":936.84,"end":937.682,"text":"謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:35 - 11:34:20","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":155039,"gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時18分）謝謝副院長。請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長好，院長辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想這麼多的委員，其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題，就是我們非常關心的國土計畫法，所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教。我想國土計畫法的重要性是非常清楚的，因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準，而且在進行詳細的調查之後，就未來我們國土功能分區的使用，它是會有一定的總量管制，這沒有問題，對不對？好，可是請問院長，為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來卻困難重重呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：再回頭過來，現在我們發現的問題，有幾個縣市是沒有送來它的功能表，有9個縣市，但是在說明的過程當中，我個人會覺得我們對國土計畫法的內容要說明清楚，讓廣大的農民朋友知道，但目前來看有它相當的困難，原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法被大家了解、接受，但是我們還是請內政部跟農業部持續跟還沒有送來的地方政府繼續再溝通。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長，你有講到一個點，我也非常同意，其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向，第一個是民眾對於國土計畫法的規定不太了解，所以很多的反對其實是來自於誤解，比如說第一個，他們就不清楚國土計畫法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益，只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的，不管你是屬於哪一種，未來被分在哪一種類別上面，既有權益、合法權益是完全被保障，但這個資訊其實不夠清楚。第二個，因為主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府，所以相同的地貌有可能會因為它在不同的縣市、不同的主管單位，劃出來不太一樣的功能分區，這當然民眾心中就有所不平。","院長，所以我今天就讓你實務看一下，你有看過這一張表嗎？俗稱圈叉表，院長有看過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道圈叉表……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有看過？這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形，所以它的不同類別，將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以。好，那我就問你，你知道圈圈叉叉是什麼嗎？還是劉部長你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是管制的強度，圈是允許……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，就是它的管制強度不同，所以已經分成5種不同類別的管制密度。好，再這樣下去的話，你看看，我們再回到剛剛的分類上面來講的話，可以show一下我的表單嗎？讓院長看一下，不同類別它真的後面的圈和叉，和它的實心上面有數字等等，真的不一樣，可見得你被分在哪一類，確實就會有不同的發展，這個院長同意吧？沒問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，院長，你知道農4和城2-1的差別嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個可能要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：農4和城2-1。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在……"],["蘇委員巧慧：簡答就好，我時間很短。"],["陳部長駿季：農4的部分就是原來鄉村區聚落的部分，跟原住民聚落的部分是規劃在農4……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，就是同樣是一個聚落，如果周圍都是農地把你包圍著，你就是農4嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果旁邊不見得全部都是農地包圍，你就有可能是城2-1嘛！簡單來講是這樣，當然還會有很多細部的例外條件等等，如果簡單來講是這個樣子，表示著它就是劃分標準不一樣嘛！劃分標準和未來的使用方式就是城2-1和農4的最大差別。","那我現在來讓你看這張圖，院長，你看一下這張圖，現在粉紅色我框起來的這個部分，它的周圍都是農2，那你覺得這個粉紅色應該劃為什麼？農4吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：農2就是優良的農地嘛！"],["蘇委員巧慧：對嘛！這個粉紅色完全被農2包圍著，所以這個粉紅色要劃為什麼？還是陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這個要實際看它的面積跟區位。"],["蘇委員巧慧：農4啦！我告訴你，現在這個劃為農4啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個是農4，那個聚落是農4沒有錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，這個粉紅色劃為農4啦！","來，下一張圖，我要問你的是這個紅色的，你猜它被劃為什麼？它被農1、農2包圍著，它的周圍也都是農地，那你猜它被劃為什麼？也不用猜啦！這是實際上已經發生的，它是城2-1啊！那你剛剛說農4和城2-1不一樣，我再把這兩張圖合併在一起，院長，這裡是哪裡你知道嗎？這裡就是我新北鶯歌和隔壁桃園，這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上劃了一條線，可是我眼睛看過去，它是同樣的一片地啊！我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆，說新北在這裡、桃園在這裡，就是一望而去相同的農地，然後我有兩個聚落，可是因為它分別在新北市及桃園市，它被劃出來的不一樣。所以當然我的鶯歌鄉親就問我啦，問我說：「委員啊，為什麼一樣的農地上面，我們是農4，它是城2-1，這將來的發展會不一樣嗎？我們的房子會被人拆嗎？」我當然是跟他說，第一，就是剛剛我們說的，你如果現在是合法的，未來也是合法，不管你是農4，還是城2-1，都一樣，這不用煩惱，這個我可以很清楚的回答。但是第二，到底為什麼它是農4而隔壁是城2-1，這個我就不太清楚了，難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號。","我覺得今天在這裡，因為它有太多太多的例外條件，比如說有可能我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況……"],["陳部長駿季：城市發展的機會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：城市發展不同條件，不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像，當然就有不同的狀況嘛！所以我會認為當地方政府報上來之後，其實中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準，這才是國土計畫精神展現之所在，院長，你同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以明年4月之前我們應該有充裕的時間。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以我的進一步主張，其實我們應該要催促地方政府趕快送出來，留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查，審查不可能是只有「勾」和「叉」就把你退件，不可能，這一定是一個來來回回很長的過程。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以地方政府如果真的要保護大家的權益，其實它也應該要趕快送出來跟中央討論，為什麼這個地方是這樣劃？那樣劃有什麼樣的規矩？還有全國其他的地方怎麼劃，最後讓中央層級，大家有一定的標準，把它建置下來，我認為這才是國土規劃的精神，不是應該這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們希望它今年的6月30要送來，現在已經延誤了……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在已經是10月1號了。"],["卓院長榮泰：明年的4月30截止，5月就開始實施，這是第一個。再來，我們希望照國土計畫法第四十五條是一併公告，才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用，用全國一致的視野來看，而這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處，而且甚至等一下我還可以跟院長、兩位部長報告，國土計畫上路更好的地方是還可以解決很多長年、多年沒有辦法解決的問題，這真的是好事啊！可是第一，資訊傳達的不夠清楚；第二，全國的標準是否一致，讓人民感受公平，我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決，才有辦法如期上路，這是我誠心的從地方反映過來的意見。但解方是什麼？解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦！地方政府如果沒有計畫送來，後面我們這些其實都不用談了，都是空談啦！這是我的想法。所以，我反而認為中央應該要花力氣在怎麼要求、鼓勵或者是棍子和紅蘿蔔啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：有，跟委員報告，內政部、農業部都非常的積極……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！要叫地方政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：可以請內政部說明一下它的進度。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員，我想委員剛剛所提到的非常的正確，其實國土計畫有二級審議，它一級在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能，但是它也可以跟我們中央來討論。問題是他們現在不願意送上來，而講的理由跟我們所知道的完全是背道而馳，譬如說對於農業地區的劃分，我們都知道有很多這樣規定的時候，包括比鄰的部分，當然就可以做比較好的審議的功能，但是你不願意把它放到審議機制裡面的時候就會變成各說各話，到後來就是我不願意送，不願意送反而會影響到未來國土計畫，對於臺灣全體國土的長久大計有比較長遠的影響，所以我們還是希望能夠從善如流，可以跟很多地方縣市政府多溝通，希望他們可以在一定時間內送上來。","譬如說新北市曾經有提到他們有兩千多件這樣的爭議，可是已經慢慢在解決當中，現在大概剩下800到1,200左右，表示說還是可以整理，還是可以跟群眾來溝通。如果溝通上有困難，有需要我們解決的部分的話，我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決，而不是完全說我不送，這件事情就解決了，這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且部長，我覺得你應該除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外，要讓大家能夠理解，真正能夠保障權益的反而是好的國土計畫上路，上路之後才是真正保障權益，這個部分要讓大家能夠理解，不是不送……"],["劉部長世芳：而且合法的一定保障。"],["蘇委員巧慧：反而是這樣的狀況。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：計畫送了之後，中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路，這是我的主張，我也不是主張匆促的直接把國土計畫上路，我認為這是不合理的，為什麼？我再讓你看下一題，你就會知道國土計畫法上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常多，院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分，畢竟我們在新北比較久，新北共29區，竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的，礦區不是只在新北的少少地方，是包括土、樹、三、鶯，甚至其他地方，有13個地區過去都有採礦行為，因為採礦就變成礦區土地，結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼？它就變成廢礦區土地。部長，你可以解釋一下，跟大家說明一下，廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有辦法利用。"],["蘇委員巧慧：什麼都不能用，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：除非要公告……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，所以它一旦成為廢礦區土地，它除了既有的房舍可以修繕之外，房舍要新增、增建都不行，更不要說如果將來在這個地方想要做礦區的文物、歷史、觀光、興建，什麼都不行，什麼都不行的情況下占了新北這麼大的面積，這個問題難道不解決嗎？所以我認為國土計畫如果能夠上路，礦區問題其實才有解方，但是剛剛一再說，開宗明義，國土計畫只保障國土計畫上路前合法的部分，如果它現在還是不合法，將來國土計畫上路，它也不合法啊，即便地目被調整了，但權益還是有問題。","為什麼我要在這個地方利用總質詢跟院長請教，就是我發現新北的礦區土地，甚至包含了特專區，在瑞芳、金、九地區有當年的國營事業，也就是採金礦的臺金公司所留下來的大範圍特專區（特定專用區），這其實需要經濟部下來一起解決，不然的話，你知道嗎？這個如果要變更，其實需要提出事業目的使用計畫，結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年，現在在哪裡卻沒有人知道，中央也沒有人知道，地方也沒有人知道，在沒有任何人知道的狀況下，這個地方要怎麼變更申請？根本無解啊！","在國土計畫上路之前，有相當多的配套措施，要讓它可以成為合法的身分，以配合國土計畫去調整地目狀況，我認為這種前置作業也必須由中央督促地方政府趕快實施，不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲，是不是可以要求、拜託督促，也協助新北市政府趕快處理這個問題？院長，以您的高度，是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會，就是剛剛點名的農業部、經濟部，甚至文化部等等，能夠一起下來幫我們解決礦區土地的再利用、重利用的問題？這是我的請求。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，從520以來，我們一直認為國土計畫法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的，所以剛剛您說的，包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通，尤其是最近這幾個月，因為6月30日一過，我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了，希望在明年4月之前，有充分的時間做二級的審查，這個我們一直在進行當中。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我如果去到礦區這個地方，我就告訴他們，原來這個法跟你們的未來息息相關，多年的問題終於可以因為這個法的通過而解決，大家都會鼓掌拍手，我覺得這就是解釋的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：如委員說的，國土計畫不只解決農地的問題，是解決國家土地充分利用的問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，是解決國家的問題，所以我非常期待部會動起來，大家一起努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員，也謝謝卓院長。","下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}}