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\"所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 558.021, \"end\": 558.181, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 558.181, \"end\": 558.541, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 558.541, \"end\": 558.681, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 558.681, \"end\": 559.242, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 559.242, \"end\": 559.362, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 559.362, \"end\": 559.562, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 559.562, \"end\": 559.782, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 559.782, \"end\": 559.942, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 559.942, \"end\": 560.242, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 560.242, \"end\": 560.522, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 560.522, \"end\": 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576.988, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 576.988, \"end\": 577.128, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 577.128, \"end\": 578.228, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 578.228, \"end\": 578.428, \"score\": 0.632}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 578.428, \"end\": 578.588, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 578.588, \"end\": 578.988, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 578.988, \"end\": 579.108, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 579.108, \"end\": 579.269, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 579.269, \"end\": 579.449, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 579.449, \"end\": 579.949, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"牛\", \"start\": 579.949, \"end\": 580.869, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"隻\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 580.869, \"end\": 581.189, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 581.189, \"end\": 581.389, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 581.389, \"end\": 581.569, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 581.569, \"end\": 581.749, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 581.749, \"end\": 581.869, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 581.869, \"end\": 582.05, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 582.05, \"end\": 582.31, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"灌\", \"start\": 582.31, \"end\": 582.45, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 582.45, \"end\": 582.69, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 582.69, \"end\": 582.71, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 583.79, \"end\": 612.075, \"text\": \"這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, 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\"end\": 865.274, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,394 --> 00:00:05,815\n鄭部長,剛聽您回答林委員的講法,說還要再滾動檢討事實,看學校的反應來做調整。\n\n2\n00:00:25,287 --> 00:00:34,732\n那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家\n\n3\n00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:55,035\n採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長\n\n4\n00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:26,340\n謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧\n\n5\n00:01:27,361 --> 00:01:40,125\n那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕\n\n6\n00:01:47,400 --> 00:02:14,634\n來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?部長有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?\n\n7\n00:02:17,181 --> 00:02:35,693\n謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在\n\n8\n00:02:36,849 --> 00:02:44,735\n先乳的提供當然一方面也希望能照顧到許多畜牧業的業者但同時我們在推動的過程有發現目前本來台灣各縣市也有提供先乳\n\n9\n00:03:00,647 --> 00:03:28,467\n這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照護裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊\n\n10\n00:03:29,997 --> 00:03:57,822\n我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候\n\n11\n00:03:58,422 --> 00:04:20,764\n那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎?那保存的責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備,是不是這樣子?這些不都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合\n\n12\n00:04:21,525 --> 00:04:40,466\n那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少最後本席今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼\n\n13\n00:04:41,527 --> 00:05:09,108\n有便利商店、通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換\n\n14\n00:05:10,575 --> 00:05:37,755\n能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對\n\n15\n00:05:39,336 --> 00:05:48,066\n納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一好,已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你知道告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?\n\n16\n00:06:02,566 --> 00:06:30,683\n總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套\n\n17\n00:06:31,852 --> 00:06:41,693\n那本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保酒乳\n\n18\n00:06:44,227 --> 00:07:02,506\n謝謝委員提醒,我們確實在這個部分也跟地方保持非常密切的沒有辦法確認時間目前已經有9個縣市已經都完成那我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這一個部長,所以你這樣子讓人家覺得說都還是跟地方狀況外呢是不是?\n\n19\n00:07:06,932 --> 00:07:33,795\n沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場\n\n20\n00:07:35,309 --> 00:08:01,587\n報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對\n\n21\n00:08:02,868 --> 00:08:23,200\n有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬\n\n22\n00:08:25,373 --> 00:08:40,800\n你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了\n\n23\n00:08:41,838 --> 00:09:04,371\n有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄\n\n24\n00:09:07,261 --> 00:09:16,708\n如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的\n\n25\n00:09:18,021 --> 00:09:42,710\n所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水\n\n26\n00:09:43,790 --> 00:10:12,075\n這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊\n\n27\n00:10:13,513 --> 00:10:36,731\n我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好部長來鄭部長\n\n28\n00:10:40,074 --> 00:11:05,177\n最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟\n\n29\n00:11:07,136 --> 00:11:25,541\n你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對\n\n30\n00:11:28,697 --> 00:11:53,883\n跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個\n\n31\n00:11:57,755 --> 00:12:24,203\n這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字\n\n32\n00:12:25,743 --> 00:12:30,547\n本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年?14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少?6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢?\n\n33\n00:12:46,197 --> 00:13:04,906\n一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少\n\n34\n00:13:06,087 --> 00:13:34,566\n要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量\n\n35\n00:13:35,186 --> 00:14:02,215\n這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎\n\n36\n00:14:04,907 --> 00:14:25,274\n我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4394\t5815\t鄭部長,剛聽您回答林委員的講法,說還要再滾動檢討事實,看學校的反應來做調整。\n25287\t34732\t那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家\n36750\t55035\t採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長\n62160\t86340\t謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧\n87361\t100125\t那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕\n107400\t134634\t來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?部長有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?\n137181\t155693\t謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在\n156849\t164735\t先乳的提供當然一方面也希望能照顧到許多畜牧業的業者但同時我們在推動的過程有發現目前本來台灣各縣市也有提供先乳\n180647\t208467\t這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照護裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊\n209997\t237822\t我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候\n238422\t260764\t那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎?那保存的責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備,是不是這樣子?這些不都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合\n261525\t280466\t那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少最後本席今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼\n281527\t309108\t有便利商店、通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換\n310575\t337755\t能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對\n339336\t348066\t納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一好,已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你知道告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?\n362566\t390683\t總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套\n391852\t401693\t那本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保酒乳\n404227\t422506\t謝謝委員提醒,我們確實在這個部分也跟地方保持非常密切的沒有辦法確認時間目前已經有9個縣市已經都完成那我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這一個部長,所以你這樣子讓人家覺得說都還是跟地方狀況外呢是不是?\n426932\t453795\t沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場\n455309\t481587\t報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對\n482868\t503200\t有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬\n505373\t520800\t你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了\n521838\t544371\t有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄\n547261\t556708\t如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的\n558021\t582710\t所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水\n583790\t612075\t這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊\n613513\t636731\t我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好部長 來鄭部長\n640074\t665177\t最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟\n667136\t685541\t你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對\n688697\t713883\t跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個\n717755\t744203\t這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字\n745743\t750547\t本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年?14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少?6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢?\n766197\t784906\t一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少\n786087\t814566\t要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量\n815186\t842215\t這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎\n844907\t865274\t我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員\n","txt":"鄭部長,剛聽您回答林委員的講法,說還要再滾動檢討事實,看學校的反應來做調整。\n那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家\n採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長\n謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧\n那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕\n來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?部長有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?\n謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在\n先乳的提供當然一方面也希望能照顧到許多畜牧業的業者但同時我們在推動的過程有發現目前本來台灣各縣市也有提供先乳\n這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照護裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊\n我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候\n那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎?那保存的責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備,是不是這樣子?這些不都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合\n那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少最後本席今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼\n有便利商店、通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換\n能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對\n納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一好,已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你知道告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?\n總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套\n那本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保酒乳\n謝謝委員提醒,我們確實在這個部分也跟地方保持非常密切的沒有辦法確認時間目前已經有9個縣市已經都完成那我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這一個部長,所以你這樣子讓人家覺得說都還是跟地方狀況外呢是不是?\n沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場\n報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對\n有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬\n你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了\n有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄\n如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的\n所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水\n這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊\n我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好部長 來鄭部長\n最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟\n你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對\n跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個\n這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字\n本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年?14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少?6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢?\n一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少\n要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量\n這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎\n我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.394 --> 00:05.815\n鄭部長,剛聽您回答林委員的講法,說還要再滾動檢討事實,看學校的反應來做調整。\n\n00:25.287 --> 00:34.732\n那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家\n\n00:36.750 --> 00:55.035\n採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長\n\n01:02.160 --> 01:26.340\n謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧\n\n01:27.361 --> 01:40.125\n那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕\n\n01:47.400 --> 02:14.634\n來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?部長有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?\n\n02:17.181 --> 02:35.693\n謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在\n\n02:36.849 --> 02:44.735\n先乳的提供當然一方面也希望能照顧到許多畜牧業的業者但同時我們在推動的過程有發現目前本來台灣各縣市也有提供先乳\n\n03:00.647 --> 03:28.467\n這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照護裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊\n\n03:29.997 --> 03:57.822\n我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候\n\n03:58.422 --> 04:20.764\n那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎?那保存的責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備,是不是這樣子?這些不都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合\n\n04:21.525 --> 04:40.466\n那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少最後本席今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼\n\n04:41.527 --> 05:09.108\n有便利商店、通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換\n\n05:10.575 --> 05:37.755\n能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對\n\n05:39.336 --> 05:48.066\n納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一好,已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你知道告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?\n\n06:02.566 --> 06:30.683\n總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套\n\n06:31.852 --> 06:41.693\n那本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保酒乳\n\n06:44.227 --> 07:02.506\n謝謝委員提醒,我們確實在這個部分也跟地方保持非常密切的沒有辦法確認時間目前已經有9個縣市已經都完成那我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這一個部長,所以你這樣子讓人家覺得說都還是跟地方狀況外呢是不是?\n\n07:06.932 --> 07:33.795\n沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場\n\n07:35.309 --> 08:01.587\n報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對\n\n08:02.868 --> 08:23.200\n有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬\n\n08:25.373 --> 08:40.800\n你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了\n\n08:41.838 --> 09:04.371\n有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄\n\n09:07.261 --> 09:16.708\n如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的\n\n09:18.021 --> 09:42.710\n所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水\n\n09:43.790 --> 10:12.075\n這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊\n\n10:13.513 --> 10:36.731\n我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好部長來鄭部長\n\n10:40.074 --> 11:05.177\n最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟\n\n11:07.136 --> 11:25.541\n你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對\n\n11:28.697 --> 11:53.883\n跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個\n\n11:57.755 --> 12:24.203\n這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字\n\n12:25.743 --> 12:30.547\n本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年?14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少?6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢?\n\n12:46.197 --> 13:04.906\n一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少\n\n13:06.087 --> 13:34.566\n要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量\n\n13:35.186 --> 14:02.215\n這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎\n\n14:04.907 --> 14:25.274\n我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.394,"end":5.815,"text":"鄭部長,剛聽您回答林委員的講法,說還要再滾動檢討事實,看學校的反應來做調整。"},{"start":25.287,"end":34.732,"text":"那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家"},{"start":36.75,"end":55.035,"text":"採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長"},{"start":62.16,"end":86.34,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧"},{"start":87.361,"end":100.125,"text":"那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕"},{"start":107.4,"end":134.634,"text":"來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?部長有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?"},{"start":137.181,"end":155.693,"text":"謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在"},{"start":156.849,"end":164.735,"text":"先乳的提供當然一方面也希望能照顧到許多畜牧業的業者但同時我們在推動的過程有發現目前本來台灣各縣市也有提供先乳"},{"start":180.647,"end":208.467,"text":"這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照護裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊"},{"start":209.997,"end":237.822,"text":"我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候"},{"start":238.422,"end":260.764,"text":"那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎?那保存的責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備,是不是這樣子?這些不都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合"},{"start":261.525,"end":280.466,"text":"那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少最後本席今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼"},{"start":281.527,"end":309.108,"text":"有便利商店、通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換"},{"start":310.575,"end":337.755,"text":"能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對"},{"start":339.336,"end":348.066,"text":"納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一好,已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你知道告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?"},{"start":362.566,"end":390.683,"text":"總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套"},{"start":391.852,"end":401.693,"text":"那本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保酒乳"},{"start":404.227,"end":422.506,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我們確實在這個部分也跟地方保持非常密切的沒有辦法確認時間目前已經有9個縣市已經都完成那我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這一個部長,所以你這樣子讓人家覺得說都還是跟地方狀況外呢是不是?"},{"start":426.932,"end":453.795,"text":"沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場"},{"start":455.309,"end":481.587,"text":"報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對"},{"start":482.868,"end":503.2,"text":"有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬"},{"start":505.373,"end":520.8,"text":"你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了"},{"start":521.838,"end":544.371,"text":"有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄"},{"start":547.261,"end":556.708,"text":"如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的"},{"start":558.021,"end":582.71,"text":"所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水"},{"start":583.79,"end":612.075,"text":"這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊"},{"start":613.513,"end":636.731,"text":"我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好部長 來鄭部長"},{"start":640.074,"end":665.177,"text":"最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟"},{"start":667.136,"end":685.541,"text":"你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對"},{"start":688.697,"end":713.883,"text":"跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個"},{"start":717.755,"end":744.203,"text":"這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字"},{"start":745.743,"end":750.547,"text":"本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年?14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少?6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢?"},{"start":766.197,"end":784.906,"text":"一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少"},{"start":786.087,"end":814.566,"text":"要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量"},{"start":815.186,"end":842.215,"text":"這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎"},{"start":844.907,"end":865.274,"text":"我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:33:56 - 09:48:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155084,"gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時34分）麻煩請鄭部長跟農業部杜常次。"],["主席：好，有請鄭部長，還有杜次長。"],["洪委員孟楷：鄭部長，剛剛聽您回答林委員的講法說還要再滾動檢討，適時看學校的反應來做調整，那不就坐實了外界講說「班班有鮮乳」這個政策倉促上路嗎？報導也講倉促上路，採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈，變成讓所有的老師要幫學生來抬鮮奶，然後如果這個鮮奶沒有在10點10分大下課的時候送到的話，還要學校各自去買冷鏈冷藏設備，那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔，中央這邊要來支應學校嗎？鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實當時我們跟農業部合作在乎的就是希望能給學童一個更好的發……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都希望，我身為家長也希望給學童更好的營養，但更重要的是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施。都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子一樣都要照顧，關於這個政策半年後，剛剛你的回答也已經承認，之後要再來滾動檢討，但為什麼開學三個禮拜了，還有很多學生沒有喝到鮮奶？這不就代表這個政策是倉卒上路嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：我想是……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎樣？部長，回答不出來，要農業部來救駕？","來，那我請教次長，今天農業部部長為什麼沒有來？"],["杜次長文珍：我們部長去勘災。"],["洪委員孟楷：去哪邊勘災？"],["杜次長文珍：部長有……"],["洪委員孟楷：有請假，是不是？"],["杜次長文珍：有，有請假、有請假。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，為什麼我會特別這樣講？在教育部的官方網站上有農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信，農業部部長署名還在教育部部長之上，請問這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推？鄭部長，要不要回答一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，事實上應該是這麼講，這整個是一個國家政策，跨部會應該如何共同為學童健康發展提供一個更好的環境？我也要感謝委員的提醒，因為在鮮乳的提供上，當然一方面希望能照顧到許多畜牧業業者，但同時在推動的過程中，我們也初步瞭解到，目前臺灣已經有10個縣市是有提供鮮乳給學童食用，所以也利用這個機會讓委員知道，我們是希望全國學童的健康都能夠受到照顧，也能夠跟地方有更緊密的結合，針對整個政策的推動跟健康的照護有一個滾動式檢討，如何跟地方合作、讓學童有更好的發展。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛講的我都知道，但你還是沒有回答我的問題，我刻意給你時間回答，可能你沒有辦法回答。現在有75%的學校捨棄鮮奶，選擇保久乳，為什麼？因為保存不容易，又沒有辦法一致性的送達，所有老師都在反映說，如果10點10分大下課時沒有辦法送到學校，那就變成至少要放在學校統一集中保管在一個角落，等到11點之後，甚至是營養午餐的時間，才能分配給學生，這中間從10點10分到12點，不就還要再做保存嗎？那保存的責任在誰？就在學校身上，所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備，是不是這樣？這些不都是問題嗎？另外，定價過低也是問題，現在傳出來保久乳每瓶14元，鮮奶每瓶16元，很多人反映說這樣的定價真的太低，可能都不符成本，那未來你們的計畫如何？本席看到你們今天的預算編列也是七億多，並沒有增加多少啊！","今天本席跟召委有提出一個想法，可能也要請部長思考，目前臺灣最有優勢的是什麼？就是便利商店的通路很厲害，山上有便利商店，海邊也有便利商店，它的比例可能比偏鄉都還要高，如果一些偏鄉真的很難送達，我們自己也不容易派冷鏈車等去送的話，有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳兌換券，讓學校老師就近在偏鄉超市、市場或者超商進行兌換？未來的檢討方向能不能這樣來研議？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，事實上，因為這個政策的推動，我們跟地方政府確實保有一定的互動，所以也跟委員報告，我們希望整個政策的執行能更精進，剛才委員所提的建議，我們內部也有得到來自於各地方的反映，包括學校，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們也聽到很多地方反映，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：也會把這個納入未來滾動式修正的一個可能方案之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，已經開學一個月了，什麼時候全臺學生都可以喝到鮮奶？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，目前我們大概已經完成採購……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，告訴國人時間點，11月底、12月底前能不能？總是要確認啊！這個政策上路已經一個多月，而學校也不是今天才成立！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，為什麼本席會那麼關心，還有為什麼會質疑你說有滾動檢討？學校並不是一天出現的，學校早就在那邊，今天農業部因為紐西蘭的鮮奶要進口，所以要照顧酪農，我想支持本土產業我們都沒有意見，但重點是政策提出來半年了，你們應該已經想好相關配套，本席現在只想問，全國人民也想知道，今年的這個學期什麼時候全臺灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保久乳？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們確實在這個部分有跟地方保持非常密切的……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法確認時間？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前已經有9個縣市完成，我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣子講，會讓人家覺得針對地方情形，你還在狀況外，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：不會啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，等一下我們召委一定還有這個問題要請教，我覺得你這個態度召委很難接受。","來！農業部，我請教一下有關「灌水牛」事件，怎麼會發生這樣的狀況？更重要的是，上禮拜突然出現「灌水牛」新聞，還是防檢署的獸醫發現的，但防檢署居然表示這個灌水牛沒有問題，把內臟拿掉之後，肉品還是可以進入市場，是這樣嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：報告委員，這應該是兩個層次的問題，第一個，全國有13家牛屠宰場其實都裝設有錄影設備，防檢署每個禮拜都會查看這些錄影設備，雖然當場都有屠檢獸醫師在場，但就怕有漏網，所以他們每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看，如果發現有違法狀況就會回追，這是第一點……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，上禮拜桃園地區的屠宰場有發生灌水牛事件，是不是？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：有民眾就說牛隻硬生生在40秒內被灌入30公斤的水，可能是灌80公斤，但是牛隻最後增加了30公斤，如果按這樣來計算的話，一年的不法暴利可能近千萬元……"],["杜次長文珍：這當中大概違反……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛也提到了你們都設有監視器，沒有錯，所以我們才有看到新聞畫面，但本席想問的、全國人民更關心的是，這是第一案嗎？這一家屠宰場使用這樣的非法行為已經多久了？有沒有去了解？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，這件事情違反兩個法令，第一個是違反動物福利法，因為這是違反動物福利的事情，絕對不允許，所以第一個要開罰的是違反動物福利法。第二個是違反屠宰作業準則，因為牛隻不應該被這樣灌水，不管是任何目的，增加重量更是不允許。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席現在要問的是，這家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄？"],["杜次長文珍：如果有查到的，一定都會罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們看到畫面裡員工的手法是很駕輕就熟的，所以很難讓人家相信上個禮拜發生的是第一起，可能他們過去已經用這樣的手法獲得許多不法暴利，所以我要問的是，既然有裝監視器，而你剛剛也親口承認，每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器畫面，沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現，代表過去不知有多少頭牛隻已經被不法手段灌進了水。"],["杜次長文珍：這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查，因為整個案子是移給桃園市政府……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候調查報告可以出來？"],["杜次長文珍：我們也很關心，因為我們也覺得這樣的事情是不能容許的，其他的12個屠宰場……"],["洪委員孟楷：全臺有13個屠宰場，只有這一家？其他屠宰場有沒有再做清查？"],["杜次長文珍：一定都要，一定都要。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候做了？"],["杜次長文珍：因為每個禮拜都有看錄影帶……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛也講了每個禮拜都有做，但很明顯的，十三分之一的這家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊！"],["杜次長文珍：我想這個需要再精進，第一個，錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，已經三天的時間過去了，能不能在今天下班前告訴本席，也讓國人知道，農業部針對上個禮拜的事件到底有什麼樣的作為？還有全臺灣13家屠宰場是不是都有類似情況？是不是要做個釐清？"],["杜次長文珍：好，違反作業準則部分已經開罰，至於桃園市政府那邊，我們也會繼續追進度，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，鄭部長，最後一個問題，1分鐘，我想今天很重要的還是耐震補強的部分，耐震補強當然應該做，尤其這關係到學童安全，更重要的是，到底提出來的計畫能不能含括全部？因為我們看到現在全臺灣50年以上的老舊校舍，以新北市來講就有差不多200棟，你這邊有算，還要再跟行政院爭取350億的預算，要推動319棟的整建，也就是重建200棟跟整地119棟，可是光新北市其實就已經兩百多棟了，所以換言之，全臺灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍，2,200棟左右對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們從98年到111年投入了一千三百多億，主要就是解決921大地震……當時教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的，為什麼跟委員補充這個數據？就是因為這個普查經過初期的評估及專家複評以後，這段期間改善、補強及拆建有8,788棟，這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，能不能針對本席的問題回答？"],["鄭部長英耀：這包含全國2,000棟以上……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我可不可以請教一下，您到底有沒有看過這樣的數字？本席提一個荒謬點就好了，98年到111年是幾年？14年，14年裡面1,315億聽起來很多，但你總共做了多少？6,691棟跟2,097棟，平均1棟多少錢？1,400萬。112年到114年82.3億補強幾棟？64棟；拆除幾棟？88棟，平均1棟多少錢？5,400萬。接下來你們要再做什麼？要再花350億，要補強多少？要補強200棟跟拆除190棟，平均1棟多少錢？1.1億。換言之，你的成本其實持續在增加，所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來，不是講過去，過去歷任政府大家都在做，我們也共同支持，但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫、做長遠的判斷，尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍，應該要系統性、計畫性的去做整體的考量，這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：好，洪孟楷委員時間到了……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒……"],["主席：這個部分是不是能夠……"],["鄭部長英耀：但是我要跟委員報告的是……"],["主席：對不起，部長……"],["鄭部長英耀：50年以上如果它沒有安全上的顧慮，事實上對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗，抱歉。"],["主席：對不起，你們是不是可以尊重一下主席？麻煩一下好不好，備詢尊重一下主席好嗎？","剛才洪孟楷委員所問的事情，因為時間已經超過了，請部長用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細的回答洪孟楷委員，好不好？拜託一下，如果我們制止的時候，請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下，以上，謝謝。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}}