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\"end\": 535.992, \"text\": \"那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 512.52, \"end\": 512.64, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 512.64, \"end\": 512.78, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 512.78, \"end\": 513.08, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 513.08, \"end\": 513.2, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 513.2, \"end\": 513.34, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 513.34, \"end\": 513.561, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 513.561, \"end\": 513.741, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 513.741, \"end\": 513.861, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 513.861, \"end\": 513.961, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 513.961, \"end\": 514.081, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 514.081, \"end\": 514.241, 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\"end\": 773.769, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 773.769, \"end\": 773.929, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 773.929, \"end\": 774.109, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"神\", \"start\": 774.109, \"end\": 775.33, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 775.33, \"end\": 775.53, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 775.53, \"end\": 775.91, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 775.91, \"end\": 776.03, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 776.03, \"end\": 776.05, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 776.05, \"end\": 776.35, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 776.35, \"end\": 776.551, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 776.551, \"end\": 776.711, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 776.711, \"end\": 776.731, \"score\": 0.223}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 777.711, \"end\": 777.951, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 777.951, \"end\": 778.051, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 778.051, \"end\": 778.091, \"score\": 0.164}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 778.091, \"end\": 778.111, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,421 --> 00:00:27,058\n主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個\n\n2\n00:00:30,475 --> 00:00:44,713\n秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制\n\n3\n00:00:46,618 --> 00:01:10,927\n但是其實齁,這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制,他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼,他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚,他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪,就是這裡\n\n4\n00:01:12,279 --> 00:01:26,079\n對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的條文了對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先序名但是就算吶齁\n\n5\n00:01:27,677 --> 00:01:42,448\n就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的\n\n6\n00:01:45,630 --> 00:02:10,936\n這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把他判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋\n\n7\n00:02:16,231 --> 00:02:16,371\n對,好,這個齁,因為這個\n\n8\n00:02:46,653 --> 00:02:49,421\n我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個\n\n9\n00:02:53,935 --> 00:03:05,604\n憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概\n\n10\n00:03:20,555 --> 00:03:36,326\n大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑\n\n11\n00:03:37,006 --> 00:03:56,408\n所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他從他再次闡明了闡明了死刑僅適用於這個犯罪這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就我剛剛講他再次闡明這個這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說\n\n12\n00:03:58,029 --> 00:04:23,191\n他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就這些程序更嚴謹\n\n13\n00:04:24,723 --> 00:04:50,824\n這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判\n\n14\n00:04:53,245 --> 00:05:11,555\n這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣\n\n15\n00:05:14,817 --> 00:05:15,077\n委員高見\n\n16\n00:05:44,468 --> 00:06:07,676\n我剛所講的這些還有包括這個剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省各級都必須要自決的這部分他認為這個是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權利所進行立法的工作事實上\n\n17\n00:06:10,281 --> 00:06:29,750\n從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些它就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案它就是一個法官造法的結果\n\n18\n00:06:30,715 --> 00:06:45,007\n其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就有法官造法的功能在裡面所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼前所未見什麼我覺得這個都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程\n\n19\n00:07:00,298 --> 00:07:15,367\n那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得他事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠\n\n20\n00:07:16,971 --> 00:07:36,078\n他完全沒有Face他就是把這個程序做的嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題\n\n21\n00:07:39,367 --> 00:07:49,832\n這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說\n\n22\n00:07:56,984 --> 00:08:16,603\n現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬\n\n23\n00:08:18,486 --> 00:08:29,475\n最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名\n\n24\n00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:55,992\n那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個\n\n25\n00:08:57,335 --> 00:09:26,879\n第四點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記嘛對不對大概他解釋的就這四個嘛齁那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋齁這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底這37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件\n\n26\n00:09:27,689 --> 00:09:40,798\n跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是在法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝\n\n27\n00:09:53,126 --> 00:10:18,718\n那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決\n\n28\n00:10:19,448 --> 00:10:39,501\n他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑\n\n29\n00:10:40,424 --> 00:10:45,607\n被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議的關鍵點是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的\n\n30\n00:10:56,374 --> 00:11:02,496\n相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬\n\n31\n00:11:24,082 --> 00:11:48,323\n就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全但這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分\n\n32\n00:11:51,283 --> 00:12:12,989\n社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在行為時也一樣現在目前是行為時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎?顯然不是因為我們有一套\n\n33\n00:12:14,096 --> 00:12:27,309\n有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼\n\n34\n00:12:28,477 --> 00:12:56,731\n過去我精神科醫師我做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還審判成立但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑\n\n35\n00:12:57,711 --> 00:12:58,111\n好,謝謝委員的這個關心\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6421\t27058\t主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個\n30475\t44713\t秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個 剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制\n46618\t70927\t但是其實齁,這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制,他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼,他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚,他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪,就是這裡\n72279\t86079\t對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的條文了對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先序名但是就算吶齁\n87677\t102448\t就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的\n105630\t130936\t這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把他判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋\n136231\t136371\t對,好,這個齁,因為這個\n166653\t169421\t我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個\n173935\t185604\t憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概\n200555\t216326\t大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑\n217006\t236408\t所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他從他再次闡明了闡明了死刑僅適用於這個犯罪這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就我剛剛講他再次闡明這個這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說\n238029\t263191\t他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就這些程序更嚴謹\n264723\t290824\t這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判\n293245\t311555\t這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣\n314817\t315077\t委員高見\n344468\t367676\t我剛所講的這些還有包括這個剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省各級都必須要自決的這部分他認為這個是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權利所進行立法的工作事實上\n370281\t389750\t從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些它就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案它就是一個法官造法的結果\n390715\t405007\t其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就有法官造法的功能在裡面所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼前所未見什麼我覺得這個都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程\n420298\t435367\t那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得他事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠\n436971\t456078\t他完全沒有Face他就是把這個程序做的嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題\n459367\t469832\t這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說\n476984\t496603\t現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬\n498486\t509475\t最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名\n512520\t535992\t那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個\n537335\t566879\t第四點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記嘛對不對大概他解釋的就這四個嘛齁那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋齁這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底這37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件\n567689\t580798\t跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是在法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝\n593126\t618718\t那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決\n619448\t639501\t他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑\n640424\t645607\t被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議的關鍵點是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的\n656374\t662496\t相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬\n684082\t708323\t就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全但這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分\n711283\t732989\t社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在行為時也一樣現在目前是行為時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎?顯然不是因為我們有一套\n734096\t747309\t有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼\n748477\t776731\t過去我精神科醫師我做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還審判成立但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑\n777711\t778111\t好,謝謝委員的這個關心\n","txt":"主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個\n秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個 剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制\n但是其實齁,這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制,他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼,他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚,他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪,就是這裡\n對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的條文了對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先序名但是就算吶齁\n就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的\n這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把他判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋\n對,好,這個齁,因為這個\n我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個\n憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概\n大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑\n所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他從他再次闡明了闡明了死刑僅適用於這個犯罪這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就我剛剛講他再次闡明這個這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說\n他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就這些程序更嚴謹\n這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判\n這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣\n委員高見\n我剛所講的這些還有包括這個剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省各級都必須要自決的這部分他認為這個是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權利所進行立法的工作事實上\n從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些它就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案它就是一個法官造法的結果\n其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就有法官造法的功能在裡面所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼前所未見什麼我覺得這個都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程\n那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得他事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠\n他完全沒有Face他就是把這個程序做的嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題\n這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說\n現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬\n最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名\n那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個\n第四點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記嘛對不對大概他解釋的就這四個嘛齁那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋齁這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底這37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件\n跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是在法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝\n那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決\n他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑\n被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議的關鍵點是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的\n相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬\n就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全但這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分\n社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在行為時也一樣現在目前是行為時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎?顯然不是因為我們有一套\n有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼\n過去我精神科醫師我做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還審判成立但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑\n好,謝謝委員的這個關心\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.421 --> 00:27.058\n主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個\n\n00:30.475 --> 00:44.713\n秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制\n\n00:46.618 --> 01:10.927\n但是其實齁,這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制,他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼,他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚,他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪,就是這裡\n\n01:12.279 --> 01:26.079\n對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的條文了對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先序名但是就算吶齁\n\n01:27.677 --> 01:42.448\n就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的\n\n01:45.630 --> 02:10.936\n這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把他判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋\n\n02:16.231 --> 02:16.371\n對,好,這個齁,因為這個\n\n02:46.653 --> 02:49.421\n我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個\n\n02:53.935 --> 03:05.604\n憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概\n\n03:20.555 --> 03:36.326\n大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑\n\n03:37.006 --> 03:56.408\n所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他從他再次闡明了闡明了死刑僅適用於這個犯罪這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就我剛剛講他再次闡明這個這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說\n\n03:58.029 --> 04:23.191\n他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就這些程序更嚴謹\n\n04:24.723 --> 04:50.824\n這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判\n\n04:53.245 --> 05:11.555\n這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣\n\n05:14.817 --> 05:15.077\n委員高見\n\n05:44.468 --> 06:07.676\n我剛所講的這些還有包括這個剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省各級都必須要自決的這部分他認為這個是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權利所進行立法的工作事實上\n\n06:10.281 --> 06:29.750\n從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些它就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案它就是一個法官造法的結果\n\n06:30.715 --> 06:45.007\n其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就有法官造法的功能在裡面所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼前所未見什麼我覺得這個都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程\n\n07:00.298 --> 07:15.367\n那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得他事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠\n\n07:16.971 --> 07:36.078\n他完全沒有Face他就是把這個程序做的嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題\n\n07:39.367 --> 07:49.832\n這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說\n\n07:56.984 --> 08:16.603\n現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬\n\n08:18.486 --> 08:29.475\n最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名\n\n08:32.520 --> 08:55.992\n那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個\n\n08:57.335 --> 09:26.879\n第四點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記嘛對不對大概他解釋的就這四個嘛齁那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋齁這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底這37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件\n\n09:27.689 --> 09:40.798\n跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是在法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝\n\n09:53.126 --> 10:18.718\n那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決\n\n10:19.448 --> 10:39.501\n他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑\n\n10:40.424 --> 10:45.607\n被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議的關鍵點是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的\n\n10:56.374 --> 11:02.496\n相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬\n\n11:24.082 --> 11:48.323\n就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全但這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分\n\n11:51.283 --> 12:12.989\n社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在行為時也一樣現在目前是行為時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎?顯然不是因為我們有一套\n\n12:14.096 --> 12:27.309\n有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼\n\n12:28.477 --> 12:56.731\n過去我精神科醫師我做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還審判成立但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑\n\n12:57.711 --> 12:58.111\n好,謝謝委員的這個關心\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.421,"end":27.058,"text":"主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個"},{"start":30.475,"end":44.713,"text":"秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個 剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制"},{"start":46.618,"end":70.927,"text":"但是其實齁,這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制,他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼,他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚,他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪,就是這裡"},{"start":72.279,"end":86.079,"text":"對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的條文了對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先序名但是就算吶齁"},{"start":87.677,"end":102.448,"text":"就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的"},{"start":105.63,"end":130.936,"text":"這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把他判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋"},{"start":136.231,"end":136.371,"text":"對,好,這個齁,因為這個"},{"start":166.653,"end":169.421,"text":"我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個"},{"start":173.935,"end":185.604,"text":"憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概"},{"start":200.555,"end":216.326,"text":"大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑"},{"start":217.006,"end":236.408,"text":"所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他從他再次闡明了闡明了死刑僅適用於這個犯罪這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就我剛剛講他再次闡明這個這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說"},{"start":238.029,"end":263.191,"text":"他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就這些程序更嚴謹"},{"start":264.723,"end":290.824,"text":"這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判"},{"start":293.245,"end":311.555,"text":"這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣"},{"start":314.817,"end":315.077,"text":"委員高見"},{"start":344.468,"end":367.676,"text":"我剛所講的這些還有包括這個剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省各級都必須要自決的這部分他認為這個是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權利所進行立法的工作事實上"},{"start":370.281,"end":389.75,"text":"從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些它就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案它就是一個法官造法的結果"},{"start":390.715,"end":405.007,"text":"其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就有法官造法的功能在裡面所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼前所未見什麼我覺得這個都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程"},{"start":420.298,"end":435.367,"text":"那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得他事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠"},{"start":436.971,"end":456.078,"text":"他完全沒有Face他就是把這個程序做的嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題"},{"start":459.367,"end":469.832,"text":"這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說"},{"start":476.984,"end":496.603,"text":"現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬"},{"start":498.486,"end":509.475,"text":"最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名"},{"start":512.52,"end":535.992,"text":"那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個"},{"start":537.335,"end":566.879,"text":"第四點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記嘛對不對大概他解釋的就這四個嘛齁那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋齁這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底這37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件"},{"start":567.689,"end":580.798,"text":"跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是在法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝"},{"start":593.126,"end":618.718,"text":"那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決"},{"start":619.448,"end":639.501,"text":"他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑"},{"start":640.424,"end":645.607,"text":"被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議的關鍵點是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的"},{"start":656.374,"end":662.496,"text":"相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬"},{"start":684.082,"end":708.323,"text":"就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全但這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分"},{"start":711.283,"end":732.989,"text":"社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在行為時也一樣現在目前是行為時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎?顯然不是因為我們有一套"},{"start":734.096,"end":747.309,"text":"有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼"},{"start":748.477,"end":776.731,"text":"過去我精神科醫師我做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還審判成立但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑"},{"start":777.711,"end":778.111,"text":"好,謝謝委員的這個關心"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:36:15 - 09:49:43","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155086,"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時36分）主席，我們請司法院。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長好。在我開始今天想要談的問題之前，先就剛才一些法律上的問題跟秘書長這邊來溝通一下。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：第一個，剛才前面黃委員的質詢裡面，對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分，他認為是不明確的法律概念，他認為是大法官的創制，但是其實所謂情節最嚴重絕對不是大法官的創制，也不是從來沒有出現過，它就出現在臺灣有簽署的公民與政治權利國際公約第六條，裡面寫得非常清楚，說「凡未廢除死刑之國家，非犯罪情節最重大之罪」就是這裡對不對？所以事實上並不是大法官創制了這個名詞，而是……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：公政公約第六條裡面已經有的條文。"],["沈委員發惠：對，它是公約裡面本來就已經有的，這是第一點，合先敘明。但是就算沒有這個國際公約，事實上，這個大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重，我認為就是闡明而已，就是再次闡明判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的，如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋，本來就是這樣子啊！我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的被判死刑嗎？可以情節不嚴重就判他死刑嗎？不行啊！死刑本身就是目前制度下的最高刑度，當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑，對不對？所以大法官會議做這個解釋，事實上只是再度闡明死刑必須嚴謹、必須謹慎，所以必須是情節最嚴重，我這樣解釋對不對？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：實務上面以往要判死刑大概也都是，因為公政公約早就已經簽署，有國內法的效力。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以不會因為大法官會議做了這個解釋，讓原本會判的法官變得無所適從，用剛才黃委員的話，變得無所適從，應該沒有這樣的問題吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為公政公約我們早就已經簽署為國內法，所以它已經有這個要求了。"],["沈委員發惠：對。我在這裡也是希望因為從9月20號憲法法庭做出憲判字第8號之後，社會對於憲判內容有諸多評論，我看了這些評論，裡面有一些我覺得很有道理，但是有一些評論，我個人認為是錯誤理解憲判字第8號判決。所以我在這裡大概簡單地做這樣的解釋，看看秘書長怎麼看。","我認為憲判字第8號大概就是四個內容，第一個，宣告唯一死刑是違憲，目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲，因為它沒有任何的衡量空間，符合這個構成要件就必須判死刑，所以他認為這個是違憲，第一個就是唯一死刑違憲。第二個就是剛剛所講的，他再次闡明死刑僅適用於個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形，再度闡明判處死刑的原則。第三個，就死刑的部分可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的，就是在死刑判決的程序必須更嚴謹，所以他增加了一些過去沒有的程序要求，例如三審必須言詞辯論，剛剛所提的必須強制辯護，還有各級合議庭必須一致決，這剛剛都講過，那大概就是這些程序更嚴謹，程序嚴謹的要求就是我剛剛講的判決第三點。第四個，有關心智缺陷障礙的部分，它設定特殊的一些程序，過去我們只有規定行為時的心智障礙，但是現在加上審判時，包括受刑時，都必須心智能力健全，對不對？","大概大法官會議解釋就是這四點，所以這四點這樣集合起來，現在大家把大法官會議憲判字第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死，我個人是非常不認同的，它事實上沒有廢死，實質上也沒有廢死，死刑還是存在，它就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹，是不是這樣？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是，委員高見。"],["沈委員發惠：是不是？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以所謂實質廢死，第一個，我認為是扣帽子啦！第二個，我認為這個判決實質上就沒有廢死，死刑依然存在，只是把必須判處死刑的要件訂得更加嚴謹。當然這也會產生一些問題，我剛剛所講的這些，還有包括剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於各級都必須要一致決的部分，他認為這個是大法官逾越司法權力進行立法的工作，事實上，從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決，到美國歷史上的憲法修正案這些，它就是法官造法的一部分，是不是這樣？我們現在所引用的憲法修正案，大家最常引用的美國憲法第五修正案就是一個法官造法的結果。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：其實是闡明憲法規定的內涵。"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：他希望各個……"],["沈委員發惠：事實上法官造法確實是在透過大法官去解釋，本身的功能就有法官造法的功能在裡面啊！所以這個也沒有……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：憲法的規範可以更具體化。"],["沈委員發惠：我個人認為也沒有所謂前所未見，我覺得這個都是言過其實，事實上，它就是一個法官造法，是一個非常符合現在憲政體制的過程。好，這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明，也是希望說明讓社會理解，大法官會議所做的憲判字第8號我覺得它事實上根本離實質廢死還非常、非常、非常的遠，它完全沒有廢死，就是程序做得嚴謹而已，這是第一點。","但是我剛剛講過，這裡面大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題，尤其是國人大概最關心的，從這個憲法判決出來之後最關心的，就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題，這個大法官在憲法法院所做的憲判字第8號裡面也做得非常清楚了，而且也是憲法判決裡面的一個重點，就是對於現在受這個宣告它提幾個可以提出非常上訴的要件，可以聲請或者是檢察總長依職權，兩個方法擇一，大概有幾個要件，第一點，犯罪情節非屬最嚴重，這部分看似比較抽象，但事實上它裡面有一些闡明，對於必須要直接故意、必須概括故意、必須擇一故意等有做一些闡明。第二點，如果當初被判死刑引用的是唯一死刑的法條，這個就可以提出非常上訴，對不對？對嘛！第三點，如果過去程序不符合現在所提的這些程序，包括沒有言詞辯論，包括沒有一致決，包括沒有強制辯護，那這個就可以提非常上訴，對不對？第四點，除了這次有聲請解釋的案件以外，其他的案件，即使沒有聲請的案件，也可以用個案救濟，對不對？大概它解釋的就這四個。依照這樣子的大法官會議解釋，目前這37名受死刑宣告的受刑人，你們什麼時候可以檢視完成，到底他們這37個人有哪一些人會符合這些要件？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，剛才委員說的有一點，因為原則上這個憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的，例外才針對這37位有聲請的部分……"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：所以不在這個聲請範圍內的話，那不當然可以去適用，至於……"],["沈委員發惠：不當然，但是大法官會議裡面有提……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對、對、對……"],["沈委員發惠：它有提其他非聲請的案件亦可個案救濟……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對、對、對……"],["沈委員發惠：對不對？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那是個案救濟的。至於這37位，我們會儘快，因為大部分都要經過檢察總長去斟酌、審酌以後認為有必要提起非常上訴才去提起，我們一定會儘速的去檢視這些規定。"],["沈委員發惠：好。這個部分，事實上，我們還是希望社會大眾能夠清楚，目前大法官所做的憲法判決裡面要求判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹，嚴謹的過程跟情節最嚴重，但是現在我們社會上大家對於是否情節嚴重的判斷這個部分可能在法感情上有落差，因此在這幾天就有一個案件，法官認為這個情節不是屬最嚴重，結果他的死刑被改判無期徒刑定讞，大家對此有所爭執，我認為這個爭議的關鍵點其實是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的相關心證問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差，一直都有這個問題，不要說判死刑，連詐欺案，連背信罪，這些都會有法官所做判決跟社會的法感情之間有落差，這個部分我希望能夠改善。","因為時間也到了，最後就補充一個我個人認為非常重要的部分，我希望司法院、法務部及衛福部能夠一起來研擬，因為我們這次憲法判決新增一個，過去只有你在行為時必須身心狀態健全，但現在是在審判中，甚至最後的受刑時，你要有受刑的能力，也就是如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋、才心神喪失，也不能執行死刑。這個部分社會上最大的質疑就是那我裝瘋賣傻就好了，我裝瘋賣傻，我就不用執行死刑了，這個部分，我想就會回歸到不管你是不是在行為時都一樣，目前是行為時，我只要裝瘋賣傻，說我那時候是瘋的，我就可以免除刑責嗎？顯然不是，因為我們有一套精神鑑定……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：精神鑑定的流程……"],["沈委員發惠：精神鑑定的流程，但是……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：精神鑑定不是那麼容易……"],["沈委員發惠：但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部，這個憲判出來之後，跟過去最大的差別是什麼？過去精神科醫師做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定，我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題，跟你會不會判死刑，跟你這個犯人會不會死，沒有必然的關係，因為你還必須接受後面的審判，但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定，就直接牽涉到，對精神科醫生來講，我鑑定你精神狀態健全，你就要執行死刑，我鑑定你精神狀態有問題，你就可以不用執行死刑，這個對做精神鑑定的醫師在醫學倫理上面是非常非常重大的挑戰，這個部分，我希望司法院、法務部及衛福部必須要就現在新增這個受刑能力精神鑑定的部分做更嚴謹的、客觀的規定，好不好？以上。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝委員的關心。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}}