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\"對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 401.654, \"end\": 401.674, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 401.674, \"end\": 401.794, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 401.794, \"end\": 402.155, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 402.155, \"end\": 402.595, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"私\", \"start\": 402.595, \"end\": 402.795, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 402.795, \"end\": 402.915, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 402.915, \"end\": 403.215, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 403.215, \"end\": 403.395, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 403.395, \"end\": 403.595, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 403.595, \"end\": 403.796, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 403.796, 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\"本\", \"start\": 499.19, \"end\": 499.39, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 499.39, \"end\": 499.65, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 499.65, \"end\": 499.97, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 499.97, \"end\": 500.131, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 500.131, \"end\": 500.151, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 503.973, \"end\": 523.503, \"text\": \"最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 503.973, \"end\": 504.134, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 504.134, \"end\": 504.314, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 504.314, \"end\": 505.094, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 505.094, \"end\": 505.754, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"短\", \"start\": 505.754, \"end\": 505.914, \"score\": 0.978}, 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\"start\": 512.238, \"end\": 512.818, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 512.818, \"end\": 513.318, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 513.318, \"end\": 513.959, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 513.959, \"end\": 514.479, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 514.479, \"end\": 515.219, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"簽\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 515.219, \"end\": 515.419, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 515.419, \"end\": 515.759, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 515.759, \"end\": 516.04, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"拉\", \"start\": 516.04, \"end\": 516.66, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"斯\", \"start\": 516.66, \"end\": 516.88, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"哥\", \"start\": 516.88, \"end\": 517.32, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 517.32, \"end\": 518.401, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 518.401, \"end\": 518.601, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 518.601, \"end\": 518.721, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 518.721, \"end\": 519.061, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 519.061, \"end\": 519.201, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 519.201, \"end\": 519.381, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 519.381, \"end\": 519.561, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 519.561, \"end\": 519.681, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 519.681, \"end\": 519.781, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 519.781, \"end\": 520.042, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 520.042, \"end\": 520.522, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 520.522, \"end\": 520.742, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 520.742, \"end\": 520.862, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 520.862, \"end\": 521.042, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 521.042, \"end\": 521.302, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 521.302, \"end\": 521.482, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 521.482, \"end\": 521.622, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 521.622, \"end\": 521.783, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 521.783, \"end\": 522.003, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 522.003, \"end\": 522.183, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 522.183, \"end\": 522.643, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 522.643, \"end\": 522.903, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"石\", \"start\": 522.903, \"end\": 523.103, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 523.103, \"end\": 523.303, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 523.303, \"end\": 523.483, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 523.483, \"end\": 523.503, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}]}, {\"start\": 524.744, \"end\": 535.109, \"text\": \"那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 524.744, \"end\": 525.925, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 525.925, \"end\": 526.105, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 526.105, \"end\": 526.205, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 526.205, \"end\": 526.545, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 526.545, \"end\": 526.745, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 526.745, \"end\": 527.045, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 527.045, \"end\": 527.205, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 527.205, \"end\": 527.305, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 527.305, \"end\": 528.125, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 528.125, \"end\": 528.326, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.326, \"end\": 528.646, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 528.646, \"end\": 529.306, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 529.306, \"end\": 529.606, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 529.606, \"end\": 529.946, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 529.946, \"end\": 530.106, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 530.106, \"end\": 530.326, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 530.326, \"end\": 530.607, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 530.607, \"end\": 530.747, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 530.747, \"end\": 531.027, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 531.027, \"end\": 531.167, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 531.167, \"end\": 531.407, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"升\", \"start\": 531.407, \"end\": 532.287, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 532.287, \"end\": 532.427, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 532.427, \"end\": 532.828, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 532.828, \"end\": 532.968, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 532.968, \"end\": 533.348, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 533.348, \"end\": 533.468, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 533.468, \"end\": 533.668, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 533.668, \"end\": 533.728, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 533.728, \"end\": 534.448, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"漲\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 534.448, \"end\": 534.728, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 534.728, \"end\": 534.828, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 534.828, \"end\": 535.008, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"升\", \"start\": 535.008, \"end\": 535.089, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 535.089, \"end\": 535.109, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 537.609, \"end\": 553.989, \"text\": \"但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 537.609, \"end\": 537.709, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 537.709, \"end\": 537.809, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 537.809, \"end\": 538.01, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 538.01, \"end\": 538.951, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 538.951, \"end\": 539.131, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 539.131, \"end\": 539.291, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 539.291, \"end\": 539.451, \"score\": 0.882}, 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\"start\": 584.454, \"end\": 584.695, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 584.695, \"end\": 584.715, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,886 --> 00:00:13,803\n主席各位委員各位官員早安我也希望可以請到部長部長請政務委員早\n\n2\n00:00:17,663 --> 00:00:30,859\n這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也滿常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳\n\n3\n00:00:53,556 --> 00:01:09,827\n每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作\n\n4\n00:01:10,487 --> 00:01:29,933\n報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位\n\n5\n00:01:30,373 --> 00:01:56,208\n但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成\n\n6\n00:01:59,470 --> 00:02:17,549\n還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁\n\n7\n00:02:18,510 --> 00:02:19,510\n您剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好\n\n8\n00:02:48,063 --> 00:02:52,765\n除了這個其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛對現在大家自己多重還不知道\n\n9\n00:03:11,776 --> 00:03:26,412\n報告委員範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會剛剛講過要輔導\n\n10\n00:03:28,174 --> 00:03:52,245\n那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明南副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作\n\n11\n00:03:53,771 --> 00:04:11,369\n所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴\n\n12\n00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:16,052\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n13\n00:04:32,461 --> 00:04:59,106\n心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億\n\n14\n00:05:00,807 --> 00:05:24,583\n這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情\n\n15\n00:05:25,823 --> 00:05:48,515\n對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個\n\n16\n00:05:49,956 --> 00:06:19,191\n具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了\n\n17\n00:06:19,831 --> 00:06:40,293\n您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙\n\n18\n00:06:41,654 --> 00:06:58,545\n對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法\n\n19\n00:07:00,286 --> 00:07:24,837\n對,透過這個委員這個機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎\n\n20\n00:07:27,112 --> 00:07:55,979\n其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到\n\n21\n00:07:56,656 --> 00:08:20,151\n是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估\n\n22\n00:08:23,973 --> 00:08:43,503\n最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼\n\n23\n00:08:44,744 --> 00:08:55,109\n那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中\n\n24\n00:08:57,609 --> 00:09:13,989\n但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們\n\n25\n00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:15,730\n謝謝委員這個我們會留意好謝謝\n\n26\n00:09:44,454 --> 00:09:44,715\n謝謝陳委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4886\t13803\t主席 各位委員 各位官員 早安 我也希望可以請到部長部長請政務委員 早\n17663\t30859\t這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也滿常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳\n35384\t53456\t﹗\n53556\t69827\t每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作\n70487\t89933\t報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位\n90373\t116208\t但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成\n119470\t137549\t還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁\n138510\t139510\t您剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好\n168063\t172765\t除了這個其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛對現在大家自己多重還不知道\n191776\t206412\t報告委員 範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會剛剛講過要輔導\n208174\t232245\t那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明南副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作\n233771\t251369\t所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴\n252570\t256052\t新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n272461\t299106\t心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億\n300807\t324583\t這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情\n325823\t348515\t對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個\n349956\t379191\t具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了\n379831\t400293\t您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙\n401654\t418545\t對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法\n420286\t444837\t對,透過這個委員這個機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎\n447112\t475979\t其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到\n476656\t500151\t是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估\n503973\t523503\t最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼\n524744\t535109\t那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中\n537609\t553989\t但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們\n554830\t555730\t謝謝委員 這個我們會留意好 謝謝\n584454\t584715\t謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"主席 各位委員 各位官員 早安 我也希望可以請到部長部長請政務委員 早\n這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也滿常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳\n﹗\n每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作\n報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位\n但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成\n還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁\n您剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好\n除了這個其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛對現在大家自己多重還不知道\n報告委員 範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會剛剛講過要輔導\n那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明南副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作\n所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億\n這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情\n對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個\n具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了\n您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙\n對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法\n對,透過這個委員這個機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎\n其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到\n是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估\n最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼\n那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中\n但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們\n謝謝委員 這個我們會留意好 謝謝\n謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.886 --> 00:13.803\n主席各位委員各位官員早安我也希望可以請到部長部長請政務委員早\n\n00:17.663 --> 00:30.859\n這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也滿常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳\n\n00:53.556 --> 01:09.827\n每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作\n\n01:10.487 --> 01:29.933\n報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位\n\n01:30.373 --> 01:56.208\n但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成\n\n01:59.470 --> 02:17.549\n還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁\n\n02:18.510 --> 02:19.510\n您剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好\n\n02:48.063 --> 02:52.765\n除了這個其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛對現在大家自己多重還不知道\n\n03:11.776 --> 03:26.412\n報告委員範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會剛剛講過要輔導\n\n03:28.174 --> 03:52.245\n那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明南副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作\n\n03:53.771 --> 04:11.369\n所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴\n\n04:12.570 --> 04:16.052\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n04:32.461 --> 04:59.106\n心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億\n\n05:00.807 --> 05:24.583\n這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情\n\n05:25.823 --> 05:48.515\n對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個\n\n05:49.956 --> 06:19.191\n具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了\n\n06:19.831 --> 06:40.293\n您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙\n\n06:41.654 --> 06:58.545\n對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法\n\n07:00.286 --> 07:24.837\n對,透過這個委員這個機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎\n\n07:27.112 --> 07:55.979\n其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到\n\n07:56.656 --> 08:20.151\n是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估\n\n08:23.973 --> 08:43.503\n最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼\n\n08:44.744 --> 08:55.109\n那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中\n\n08:57.609 --> 09:13.989\n但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們\n\n09:14.830 --> 09:15.730\n謝謝委員這個我們會留意好謝謝\n\n09:44.454 --> 09:44.715\n謝謝陳委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.886,"end":13.803,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位官員 早安 我也希望可以請到部長部長請政務委員 早"},{"start":17.663,"end":30.859,"text":"這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也滿常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳"},{"start":35.384,"end":53.456,"text":"﹗"},{"start":53.556,"end":69.827,"text":"每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作"},{"start":70.487,"end":89.933,"text":"報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位"},{"start":90.373,"end":116.208,"text":"但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成"},{"start":119.47,"end":137.549,"text":"還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁"},{"start":138.51,"end":139.51,"text":"您剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好"},{"start":168.063,"end":172.765,"text":"除了這個其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛對現在大家自己多重還不知道"},{"start":191.776,"end":206.412,"text":"報告委員 範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會剛剛講過要輔導"},{"start":208.174,"end":232.245,"text":"那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明南副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作"},{"start":233.771,"end":251.369,"text":"所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴"},{"start":252.57,"end":256.052,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":272.461,"end":299.106,"text":"心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億"},{"start":300.807,"end":324.583,"text":"這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情"},{"start":325.823,"end":348.515,"text":"對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個"},{"start":349.956,"end":379.191,"text":"具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了"},{"start":379.831,"end":400.293,"text":"您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙"},{"start":401.654,"end":418.545,"text":"對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法"},{"start":420.286,"end":444.837,"text":"對,透過這個委員這個機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎"},{"start":447.112,"end":475.979,"text":"其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到"},{"start":476.656,"end":500.151,"text":"是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估"},{"start":503.973,"end":523.503,"text":"最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼"},{"start":524.744,"end":535.109,"text":"那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中"},{"start":537.609,"end":553.989,"text":"但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們"},{"start":554.83,"end":555.73,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我們會留意好 謝謝"},{"start":584.454,"end":584.715,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:59:01 - 10:08:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155098,"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時59分）主席、各位委員、各位官員早安。我也希望可以請到部長。"],["主席：彭部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：早。這個照片其實沒有什麼意思，只是剛剛有聽到您說，您跟經濟部也蠻常吵架的。可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總質詢還有國是論壇的發言，醫院未來的節能、減碳、碳排、碳盤查等等很需要密切與衛福部運作，現在甚至可能加上經濟部。因為您知道醫院、醫療院所的電價10月16日之後可能會凍漲，但是明年、後年沒有人知道，總不能每隔幾個月就這樣要求，所以我覺得您的業務真的牽涉很多部門。未來在醫院的碳排、碳盤查這方面，您是不是會覺得需要院長來主持，因為有很多跨部門的合作？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我身負減碳的重任，所以我們跟衛福部、經濟部，還有金管會，這四個部的確有密切的協調合作。針對醫療院所，我們大概再過一、兩個月就會提出一個方案。我們不是要他們做碳盤查，因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位，但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能，幫醫院深度的節能，醫院就可以減少開支，而這個經費需要有一點點的支持，這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動，我們正在想辦法。"],["陳委員菁徽：今天主要是為了醫療院所來關心這個議題，也希望部長可以多為我們解答。您剛剛講到的節能，是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內？因為這兩個只占了碳排的三成耶，還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說它的醫材、藥材，還有最近您也炒起來這個抗生素的問題，以及病患還有員工他們通勤，這個在範疇三。您剛剛講的這個節能非常好，因為醫院的能源排行是第一嘛，這個你也知道為什麼，因為我們很多維生系統是沒有辦法中斷的，還有對於溫度的控制非常的重要，感染率才可以降低，所以它比一般的運輸、教育，甚至百貨業都要高。而全球統計臺灣的醫療部門碳排放量在4.6%，比全球平均的4.4%還要高，也被指出我們是主要的排放國，顯然高於全球的平均。可是您剛剛提到的，我覺得節能這件事情非常好，而且本來就有很多公司在做這件事情，為了協助醫療院所或是大公司改善範疇一、範疇二，也就是直接還有間接的排放，但除了這個外，其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢？因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛！現在大家自己多重還不知道。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，範疇一、二是最容易做的，特別如果醫院不是我們管制的話，它不用那麼急著去做這種所謂細節的碳盤查啦，先減碳、先節電，節電或省水這是最重要的，我們剛剛講過會輔導。至於範疇三，其實目前全世界都還在進行當中，我們的確是有在討論這個事情，然後我們也在觀察日本，他們有在做範疇三，但是也才剛開始而已，所以目前我們會提醒可以怎麼做。我所知道的是衛福部也挖了林名男到衛福部工作，他在慈濟大林醫院當副院長，他未來就要做這類的工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這張有講到，您講的節電非常重要，但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了，新光是花自己的錢喔，自掏腰包請員工訓練永續的課程，部長應該知道這永續的課程在外面很貴嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：很貴。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個成本也是要自己吸收，您聽總質詢也知道醫療院所現在非常的艱困，連健保點值都已經達不到了，電費還要被漲，護理師又不斷地流失。新光說可能要花5,000萬來開展節能減碳計畫；臺大說要花8,000萬，部長，你心中有沒有什麼idea？比如說更大的長庚等等的，還有其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二，他們自己的成本會花到多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，像臺大的電費大概就花到2、3億，其實它最好的作法是把冰水主機、室內的照明，還有空調整個大更換，這個都要請專業人員評估啦！像我前兩天到能源展，我就問他們，他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億，如果用ESCO的方式來進行的話，醫院就不必花自己的錢，但是我必須說有一段時間它還是要花電費，然後用轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來，所以我們目前是用這樣的方式。因為目前如果要這麼大一筆錢來做深度節能，靠政府的錢是無法補助的，這個洞很大，需要用民間的資金一起來做，所以我們現在在準備做這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我也希望您可以宣導，因為當天我有看到電話事件，您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案，我也問了很多我醫師界的朋友、同學，他們現在很多都被醫院指派到ESG減碳小組去上課，所以他們都在一一培訓。可是你的具體方案大家沒有聽說，甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說，才知道範疇一跟範疇二也許負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：您的意思是這樣子？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這件事情是經濟部跟環境部扛起來，然後我們找衛福部找資金在做，這是一個新的作法啦！當然我們也希望衛福部可以出一點錢，但是我覺得健保點數就很辛苦了，而我們碳費也不會太高，所以其實目前我們從各方的資金來尋求合作。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道您剛剛有講到您的預算，我看了一下好像也只有9,000萬嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，應該沒那麼多，我們沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事啦，但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制，的確是可以幫醫院的忙，所以我們會負責私立的醫院，而公部立的醫院經濟部會來協助，我們有一個小組就在做這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以現在私立醫院會覺得很慌張，因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也透過委員垂詢這個機會，我也可以公開喊話，請醫院不要著急，跟著我們環境部走，不要著急，我們又不會馬上收碳費……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案，你還沒端出來啊！"],["彭部長啓明：因為我還沒有場域可以說啦！要把資金找到，這需要一點點時間，再給我們1、2個月，大家真的不要急。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以關於永續師等等這些課程，你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實永續的功能跟目標，我是覺得可以重新再思考，因為這個是市面上商業的行為啦，真的去做節能減碳其實有專門的證照。所以這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用，我們尊重市場的考慮，但是其實環境部也有開一些班，那個都很便宜，我必須說不見得一定要完全去上這個課，你只要有心，環境部提供各種素材你都可以做得到！"],["陳委員菁徽：是，對，至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是你的這個具體方案……我等一下會有個臨提，我們會希望你可以列出這個時程，比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一、範疇二，多久以前完成節能，然後未來你的補助計畫、減碳的補助這些，他們需要初步有個概念，否則很難做未來的成本推算跟預估。"],["彭部長啓明：OK，好，謝謝委員，這個我們會提供。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題，這個您很熟悉啦，您是氣候專家！2021年的時候，曾經有兩百多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議，他們明確希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料補貼。接著當然是要請教部長，您知道臺灣現在這些補貼是持續地下降還是持續地上升嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：按照現在我們希望不要調漲電價的立場，是持續地上升當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：OK。"],["彭部長啓明：但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣，例如說像很多的國家……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，這兩百多個簽名的國家也都在上升。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個都是一個倡議啦，就是倡議嘛，就是我們宣導什麼，但是實際上做又是一回事，國際上很多都是這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，本席這邊也只是給你們具體的建議啦，因為陳吉仲在2022年3月就公開承諾過，未來漁業用的補貼用油會逐年地減少，可是其實還是逐年地成長。我是建議部長是不是可以考慮跟其他的部門交流，將這個補貼轉換到其他對我們減碳比較有幫助的補貼，實際上還是往燃料下降的方向去進行，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，這個我們會留意。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}}