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\"end\": 677.374, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 677.374, \"end\": 677.554, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 677.554, \"end\": 677.994, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 677.994, \"end\": 678.114, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 678.114, \"end\": 678.374, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 678.374, \"end\": 678.494, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 678.494, \"end\": 678.514, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 678.514, \"end\": 678.534, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 682.196, \"end\": 682.4, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 682.4, \"end\": 682.42, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"們\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,922 --> 00:00:30,770\n好謝謝我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好有請鄭部長跟杜次長兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是\n\n2\n00:00:33,331 --> 00:00:53,816\n我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是章廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?\n\n3\n00:01:03,787 --> 00:01:26,422\n這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲結果發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話\n\n4\n00:01:30,365 --> 00:01:39,448\n部長你知道嗎?保久乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億進而不到預算的一半為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是這個包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?\n\n5\n00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:16,297\n是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在絕標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?\n\n6\n00:02:20,051 --> 00:02:25,375\n在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊\n\n7\n00:02:43,627 --> 00:02:49,050\n你就沒有辦法不服成本糯農的品質很好當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們的本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說的羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看\n\n8\n00:03:12,785 --> 00:03:13,789\n你要救多農的產業你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計有沒有這個事實?\n\n9\n00:03:20,229 --> 00:03:47,635\n謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶才能去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同\n\n10\n00:03:47,875 --> 00:04:01,360\n好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有百分之三點多的孩子是去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?\n\n11\n00:04:05,260 --> 00:04:29,688\n因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約\n\n12\n00:04:31,368 --> 00:04:34,752\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」\n\n13\n00:04:47,914 --> 00:05:02,553\n這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP\n\n14\n00:05:03,649 --> 00:05:32,380\n然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看\n\n15\n00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:36,202\n農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看\n\n16\n00:05:49,993 --> 00:06:14,744\n這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嗎特別是第一線的老師應該有吧\n\n17\n00:06:17,590 --> 00:06:43,328\n確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入了解更地方部長你說更深入了解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不可以這樣啦部長不可以這樣啦\n\n18\n00:06:46,330 --> 00:07:02,519\n我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?\n\n19\n00:07:03,922 --> 00:07:16,509\n你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水\n\n20\n00:07:19,212 --> 00:07:26,939\n那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇飽酒辱那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了\n\n21\n00:07:40,450 --> 00:07:50,572\n日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎\n\n22\n00:07:52,057 --> 00:07:53,298\n中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向\n\n23\n00:08:11,671 --> 00:08:20,999\n現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶\n\n24\n00:08:33,149 --> 00:08:48,389\n目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決\n\n25\n00:08:50,932 --> 00:09:14,358\n剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱沒有地方保存都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西\n\n26\n00:09:16,579 --> 00:09:25,366\n牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?這邊讓他改管。\n\n27\n00:09:29,517 --> 00:09:45,789\n我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變\n\n28\n00:09:48,931 --> 00:09:51,474\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n\n29\n00:10:11,215 --> 00:10:11,775\n謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟落農是一樣的\n\n30\n00:10:38,664 --> 00:10:38,945\n長校乳或ESL乳\n\n31\n00:10:51,042 --> 00:11:18,534\n這都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝\n\n32\n00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:22,420\n好,我們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5922\t30770\t好 謝謝我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好 有請鄭部長跟杜次長兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是\n33331\t53816\t我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是章廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?\n63787\t86422\t這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲結果發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話\n90365\t99448\t部長你知道嗎?保久乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億進而不到預算的一半為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是 這個包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?\n120276\t136297\t是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在絕標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?\n140051\t145375\t在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊\n163627\t169050\t你就沒有辦法不服成本糯農的品質很好當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們的本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說的羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看\n192785\t193789\t你要救多農的產業你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計有沒有這個事實?\n200229\t227635\t謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶才能去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同\n227875\t241360\t好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有百分之三點多的孩子是去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?\n245260\t269688\t因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約\n271368\t274752\t二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」\n287914\t302553\t這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP\n303649\t332380\t然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔 對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看\n333180\t336202\t農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看\n349993\t374744\t這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嗎特別是第一線的老師應該有吧\n377590\t403328\t確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入了解更地方部長你說更深入了解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不可以這樣啦部長不可以這樣啦\n406330\t422519\t我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?\n423922\t436509\t你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水\n439212\t446939\t那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇飽酒辱那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了\n460450\t470572\t日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎\n472057\t473298\t中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向\n491671\t500999\t現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶\n513149\t528389\t目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決\n530932\t554358\t剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱沒有地方保存都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西\n556579\t565366\t牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?這邊讓他改管。\n569517\t585789\t我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變\n588931\t591474\t二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n611215\t611775\t謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟落農是一樣的\n638664\t638945\t長校乳或ESL乳\n651042\t678534\t這都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝\n682196\t682420\t好,我們\n","txt":"好 謝謝我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好 有請鄭部長跟杜次長兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是\n我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是章廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?\n這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲結果發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話\n部長你知道嗎?保久乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億進而不到預算的一半為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是 這個包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?\n是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在絕標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?\n在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊\n你就沒有辦法不服成本糯農的品質很好當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們的本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說的羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看\n你要救多農的產業你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計有沒有這個事實?\n謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶才能去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同\n好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有百分之三點多的孩子是去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?\n因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」\n這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP\n然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔 對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看\n農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看\n這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嗎特別是第一線的老師應該有吧\n確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入了解更地方部長你說更深入了解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不可以這樣啦部長不可以這樣啦\n我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?\n你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水\n那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇飽酒辱那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了\n日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎\n中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向\n現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶\n目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決\n剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱沒有地方保存都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西\n牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?這邊讓他改管。\n我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟落農是一樣的\n長校乳或ESL乳\n這都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝\n好,我們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.922 --> 00:30.770\n好謝謝我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好有請鄭部長跟杜次長兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是\n\n00:33.331 --> 00:53.816\n我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是章廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?\n\n01:03.787 --> 01:26.422\n這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲結果發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話\n\n01:30.365 --> 01:39.448\n部長你知道嗎?保久乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億進而不到預算的一半為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是這個包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?\n\n02:00.276 --> 02:16.297\n是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在絕標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?\n\n02:20.051 --> 02:25.375\n在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊\n\n02:43.627 --> 02:49.050\n你就沒有辦法不服成本糯農的品質很好當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們的本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說的羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看\n\n03:12.785 --> 03:13.789\n你要救多農的產業你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計有沒有這個事實?\n\n03:20.229 --> 03:47.635\n謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶才能去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同\n\n03:47.875 --> 04:01.360\n好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有百分之三點多的孩子是去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?\n\n04:05.260 --> 04:29.688\n因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約\n\n04:31.368 --> 04:34.752\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」\n\n04:47.914 --> 05:02.553\n這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP\n\n05:03.649 --> 05:32.380\n然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看\n\n05:33.180 --> 05:36.202\n農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看\n\n05:49.993 --> 06:14.744\n這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嗎特別是第一線的老師應該有吧\n\n06:17.590 --> 06:43.328\n確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入了解更地方部長你說更深入了解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不可以這樣啦部長不可以這樣啦\n\n06:46.330 --> 07:02.519\n我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?\n\n07:03.922 --> 07:16.509\n你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水\n\n07:19.212 --> 07:26.939\n那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇飽酒辱那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了\n\n07:40.450 --> 07:50.572\n日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎\n\n07:52.057 --> 07:53.298\n中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向\n\n08:11.671 --> 08:20.999\n現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶\n\n08:33.149 --> 08:48.389\n目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決\n\n08:50.932 --> 09:14.358\n剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱沒有地方保存都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西\n\n09:16.579 --> 09:25.366\n牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?這邊讓他改管。\n\n09:29.517 --> 09:45.789\n我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變\n\n09:48.931 --> 09:51.474\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n\n10:11.215 --> 10:11.775\n謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟落農是一樣的\n\n10:38.664 --> 10:38.945\n長校乳或ESL乳\n\n10:51.042 --> 11:18.534\n這都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝\n\n11:22.196 --> 11:22.420\n好,我們\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.922,"end":30.77,"text":"好 謝謝我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好 有請鄭部長跟杜次長兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是"},{"start":33.331,"end":53.816,"text":"我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是章廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?"},{"start":63.787,"end":86.422,"text":"這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲結果發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話"},{"start":90.365,"end":99.448,"text":"部長你知道嗎?保久乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億進而不到預算的一半為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是 這個包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?"},{"start":120.276,"end":136.297,"text":"是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在絕標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?"},{"start":140.051,"end":145.375,"text":"在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊"},{"start":163.627,"end":169.05,"text":"你就沒有辦法不服成本糯農的品質很好當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們的本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說的羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看"},{"start":192.785,"end":193.789,"text":"你要救多農的產業你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計有沒有這個事實?"},{"start":200.229,"end":227.635,"text":"謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶才能去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同"},{"start":227.875,"end":241.36,"text":"好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有百分之三點多的孩子是去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?"},{"start":245.26,"end":269.688,"text":"因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約"},{"start":271.368,"end":274.752,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」"},{"start":287.914,"end":302.553,"text":"這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP"},{"start":303.649,"end":332.38,"text":"然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔 對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看"},{"start":333.18,"end":336.202,"text":"農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看"},{"start":349.993,"end":374.744,"text":"這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嗎特別是第一線的老師應該有吧"},{"start":377.59,"end":403.328,"text":"確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入了解更地方部長你說更深入了解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不可以這樣啦部長不可以這樣啦"},{"start":406.33,"end":422.519,"text":"我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?"},{"start":423.922,"end":436.509,"text":"你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水"},{"start":439.212,"end":446.939,"text":"那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇飽酒辱那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了"},{"start":460.45,"end":470.572,"text":"日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":472.057,"end":473.298,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":491.671,"end":500.999,"text":"現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶"},{"start":513.149,"end":528.389,"text":"目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決"},{"start":530.932,"end":554.358,"text":"剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱沒有地方保存都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西"},{"start":556.579,"end":565.366,"text":"牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?這邊讓他改管。"},{"start":569.517,"end":585.789,"text":"我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變"},{"start":588.931,"end":591.474,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":611.215,"end":611.775,"text":"謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟落農是一樣的"},{"start":638.664,"end":638.945,"text":"長校乳或ESL乳"},{"start":651.042,"end":678.534,"text":"這都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝"},{"start":682.196,"end":682.42,"text":"好,我們"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:08:43 - 10:20:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155105,"gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時8分）謝謝。我們是不是請部長跟杜次長？"],["主席（萬委員美玲）：有請鄭部長跟杜次長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：兩位好。我想從第一位到我，大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策，我想這個政策當然是一個美意，不管是對孩子的健康，或者是對我們酪農的發展，我想應該是給予讚賞，但是還是一句話，永遠換了一個問題，就是永遠只有一個政策，然後到最後淪為一個口號。剛剛我們就特別提到了，我記得在7月中旬的時候，有一句話是張廖次長特別提到的，每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折，信誓旦旦，而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝保久乳，目前就教育部的統計，保久乳占75.77%。部長，這些都是偏鄉嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不是，不必然是……"],["柯委員志恩：是嘛！所以這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲，結果發現學校所有的問題都出來，不要說沒有冷鏈系統，包括你給予的這些到時候怎麼樣清理，是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的，都沒有好好來做討論，所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣，但是既然這個目標已經打出來了，我們還是來看看要怎麼一一來解決。你看一下，以目前來說，部長你知道嗎？保久乳的預算編的是五億兩千多，為什麼決標只有兩億，金額不到預算的一半，為什麼？來，次長也可以回應一下。"],["杜次長文珍：是，包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的底價，應該叫成本，成本計算還加上利潤，這個都是跟廠商那邊的……"],["柯委員志恩：所以嘛！你們當初決標，你們決標只有人家的一半，你們就應該知道問題所在，那我請問14塊是怎麼訂出來的？"],["杜次長文珍：是廠商一起討論出來的，他們……"],["柯委員志恩：廠商一起討論出來的？"],["杜次長文珍：是可以合理的承受價格……"],["柯委員志恩：你現在說外面市價多少嘛！廠商有沒有利潤？廠商討論出來的，結果你發現廠商當初給你們的部分，因為每個人都想要競標得到，結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言，以至於你們看，你們現在決標只有這樣子，你們知道問題所在嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：在採購過程應該是量夠大，廠商……"],["柯委員志恩：量絕對夠大嗎？其實沒有，你們的問題都完全顯現出來了，所以也難怪從頭到尾每個委員都質疑，我幫你做一個綜合整理，每個委員難怪會質疑你們是為了進口保久乳來做一個鋪路，當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農，結果呢？你看你光是14塊加2塊的運費，16塊，你就沒有辦法，不符成本！酪農的品質很好，他的價錢當然比這個更高，結果你看勉強的配合式得標，沒有得標的小酪農完全被擠出市場，造成剩奶，而且還要被下殺收購，這對我們本土的酪農是一個非常大的傷害，更不要說羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭，目前羊乳的客戶有六成是學童，結果教育部跟農業部告訴我們每個人都有鮮奶可以喝，馬上大家就停訂了，結果你看看，你要救酪農的產業，你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計，有沒有這個事實？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員提醒，兩件事情，第一個，我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶，現在的共同供應契約上，不管是保久奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產，用國內生產的牛奶、鮮奶才能去做，這是第一點……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，我現在是問羊奶的產業，你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期都有邀約來談，這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同，那麼羊乳……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是要提醒你這個造成的影響，等一下還有很多的問題。","我們再往下看，然後你看有百分之三點多的孩子是乳糖不耐症，你需要有所謂含鈣的豆漿，請問為什麼現在尚未決標？為什麼現在還沒有決標？"],["杜次長文珍：因為它不是一般豆漿，它是含鈣豆漿，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：我們臺灣現在有含鈣豆漿嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：有，有兩家。"],["柯委員志恩：哪兩家？它的豆是來自於國產的，還是來自國外的？我其實幫你做市場區隔了，其實他們是有含鈣豆漿，但是他們都是來自於外國的豆，不是臺灣本土的豆，所以你可能要搞清楚，而且你看看，還要提醒保久乳的採購契約，標示一定要有CAS或TAP，但是目前的保久乳只有TQF，那怎麼辦？第一線的人員誰敢來驗收，這是你規定的，跟現實完全是不符，他怎麼敢驗收？次長，這怎麼辦？"],["杜次長文珍：這個部分因為驗收的時間……1月1號以後才會是保久乳……"],["柯委員志恩：1月1號？可是你現在契約並沒有改，現在才10月，你現在契約沒有改喔！"],["杜次長文珍：國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP跟CAS，這個沒問題……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在是說保久乳，保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP，你說明年1月1號，你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP？然後你現在還沒有改，現在是10月，怎麼驗收？"],["杜次長文珍：在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳。"],["柯委員志恩：對不起！目前為止，你還是根據你們設計的方式來做這樣的處理，我只是告訴你這些都是學校單位所反映給我們的，目前是有這樣子的問題，所以你們一定要特別注意。","接下來，部長你看看，農業部說4年的供應政策不會被改變，但是你看現在牛奶配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校，這是大家已經蒐集的所有意見了，當這個政策要推出來之前，你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些溝通？你看，這些都是學校老師所反映給我們的，到底是每個月配送幾次，而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定，可是目前為止，不同的學校都有不同的方法，所以到底是如何？怎麼樣來分裝、喝完誰來清洗、怎麼樣來整理垃圾？部長，這些林林總總，這個政策出來，你現在到任何地方去，應該有接收到很多學校抱怨的意見吧？特別是第一線的老師，應該有吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，我們也希望透過這個學期能夠更深入了解各地方需求，然後怎麼合作來做得更好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，你說更深入了解，我同意，但是你5月就見報，你7月就已經信誓旦旦，現在已經10月了，所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解。這就是我剛剛一開始說的，政策美意是很好，可是你永遠政策先推出來、口號先出來，然後細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢蒐集，不能這樣啦，部長，不能這樣啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，確實我們也聽到第一線的這些校長跟老師因為這個政策所面臨的一些挑戰，我們也把它納進來，未來……"],["柯委員志恩：那你覺得4年的供應政策會不會縮水，農業部跟部長，你們可以保證嗎？你們現在可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎？這是你們既定的政策，為了孩子的健康、為了酪農的發展，酪農發展我已經幫你界定，沒有幫助到酪農，反而讓我們的羊奶產業先斷鏈；然後你們可以保證這4年的供應政策不會縮水嗎？會不會縮水？我剛剛所講的這些問題，你目前都沒有辦法解決啊，你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%、都是由學校來決定，學校就是沒有冷鏈系統，它被迫沒有選擇，只能選擇保久乳。我再跟部長講，你們也有很多人去觀察日本，日本的營養午餐必附牛奶，已經實行十幾年了，日本早就做到了，臺灣為什麼到現在為止還「離離落落」，部長，你有發現原因嗎？立意良好，但為什麼日本做得到，我們做不到？你知道這中間的原因在哪裡嗎？","我先綜整一下，鮮奶跟保久乳的比例要不要調整一下？還有冷鏈的運送，家長當然還是希望孩子喝到鮮奶，但冷鏈的部分沒有幫他們解決是沒有辦法的。所以剛剛有委員不斷在說，學校怎麼儲存、怎麼樣來發配，然後你還告訴我行政人員還有獎勵，現在學校老師的行政系統要減量都減不了了，你還要再增加他的負擔，大家有幫你們想到一個方法，有沒有機會去超商兌換；還有我還是要強調，對於乳糖不耐的孩子，這些豆漿到底如何來決標？而且我問過廠商，目前為止那些含鈣豆奶的豆子基本上不是國產，是國外的，這些都是有待釐清，我還是要提醒，從農委會提升到農業部，已經給你到農業部的標準，我覺得整個品質還是要提升，部長，你現在要怎麼解決這些問題？","剛剛前面那幾個問題，你看我幫你列出來了，你看，盯配送、瞬間造成鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠膜等，老師都幫你想好問題了，沒有剪開清洗會發臭、垃圾量驚人、有些學生不愛喝，偷偷倒掉造成浪費、配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合、沒有冰箱、沒有地方保存，這些都幫你全部整理完畢，這只有條列七點，我還可以告訴你十七點，因此牛奶券會不會是個選擇的方法？如果沒有辦法解決這些問題，你今天告訴我你要撐4年，我覺得是一件非常困難的事情，部長，你怎麼說？要怎麼樣來改善？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會來努力改善。"],["柯委員志恩：你要努力來改善，好，我們就看看怎麼樣來改善，還是要提醒部長，一個政策的配套沒有做好，不要馬上拿出大內宣的口號。更不要說鮮奶的部分，我們剛剛說有一部分是要提振我們的酪農，我要問一下杜次長，酪農其實有大的改變，6月的時候食藥署已經釐清了，你們現在創造非常多鮮奶的標語，延長保存期限的鮮乳、長效的鮮乳、ESL的鮮乳，對我來說鮮乳的保存就是兩個禮拜，要是兩個禮拜沒有喝完，我就覺得很焦慮，結果有效時間90天，你們還稱為鮮乳嗎？這讓很多酪農非常、非常地焦慮，而且非常憤怒。而且對於紐西蘭的鮮乳，所謂你們定義的鮮乳，要進來還零關稅，這樣會不會讓我們現在這些小酪農反而承受更大的災害？光是你們對於鮮奶的定義，如果定義不清楚的話，對於這些辛辛苦苦的酪農，根本沒有辦法振興到他們的產業，反而讓他們陷入更大的絕境。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持，我們的立場跟酪農是一樣的。"],["柯委員志恩：跟什麼一樣？"],["杜次長文珍：跟酪農是一樣的。"],["柯委員志恩：有嗎？那你告訴我，你們創造這麼多名詞，你們的立場根本不一樣，這都是他們反映出來的，90天還叫鮮乳嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：長效乳或ESL乳……"],["柯委員志恩：都叫做鮮乳。"],["杜次長文珍：我們的立場其實跟酪農是一樣的。"],["柯委員志恩：你們完全不一樣，杜次長，你不一樣，你應該多多聽酪農的聲音，這些全部都是他們反映給我們的，90天不叫做鮮乳，我覺得在這個定義上面，你們或許還有非常大的空間。總而言之，好的政策，希望部長、希望次長能夠好好地對於配套的部分去做，否則你就會遭受……從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣，怎麼樣把它落實，還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，部長、次長請回。","下一位我們有請葉元之委員。","在范雲委員質詢結束之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}}