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\"希\", \"start\": 541.749, \"end\": 541.849, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 541.849, \"end\": 541.869, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 542.85, \"end\": 542.87, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,696 --> 00:00:33,963\n主席好,我們有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。部長早。我今天看了一下,就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛,我們今天要審議會嘛對不對?對對對。那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大?\n\n2\n00:00:34,943 --> 00:00:51,813\n其實我們都有準備好請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言\n\n3\n00:00:53,294 --> 00:01:15,259\n當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:16,519 --> 00:01:41,690\n這個現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期的那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元\n\n5\n00:01:43,250 --> 00:02:12,333\n這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造\n\n6\n00:02:13,613 --> 00:02:33,721\n我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對\n\n7\n00:02:40,504 --> 00:03:09,324\n全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到\n\n8\n00:03:09,864 --> 00:03:24,323\n所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去吧?我們都有考量,CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告,其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少?他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事\n\n9\n00:03:25,945 --> 00:03:41,555\n但是它一定是相關聯阿?怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去,不可能說沒有直接影響。我們減碳是一個全球的價值、一個責任。那電價是電價,所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的。但是電價成本提高的時候,轉嫁到名稱消費的時候,它就是提高的。這是一定會呈現出來的。\n\n10\n00:03:52,102 --> 00:04:15,076\n但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24%\n\n11\n00:04:17,737 --> 00:04:40,682\n按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用\n\n12\n00:04:42,763 --> 00:05:10,943\n我們希望我們希望因為我並不是收一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們所以這個就是我要講的\n\n13\n00:05:11,283 --> 00:05:11,403\n拜訪委員\n\n14\n00:05:28,234 --> 00:05:28,254\n好﹖\n\n15\n00:05:55,322 --> 00:06:12,935\n我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用\n\n16\n00:06:17,819 --> 00:06:38,119\n天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說假設苗栗越來越熱,然後我們很多現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了。我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情。所以它的擴及的方面是很廣的?很廣很廣。那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年。\n\n17\n00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:50,685\n2026年年中5月才會收到第一筆錢所以我們大概呢整個碳費制度上路之後就我們的費率溫室氣體管理基金應該就會來討論這個議題但是我們會依據法令來解決來處理謝謝部長那另外我再問一下\n\n18\n00:06:56,108 --> 00:07:20,405\n我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說\n\n19\n00:07:22,008 --> 00:07:34,220\n我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把我們現在的49場的垃圾山把它降下來?包圍三年,就是到2026年的6月\n\n20\n00:07:39,212 --> 00:07:57,888\n因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種節慮來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概\n\n21\n00:07:59,089 --> 00:07:59,109\n邱鎮軍\n\n22\n00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:29,095\n但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助\n\n23\n00:08:31,802 --> 00:08:45,690\n委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的\n\n24\n00:08:47,351 --> 00:09:01,869\n對對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說\n\n25\n00:09:02,850 --> 00:09:02,870\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11696\t33963\t主席好,我們有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。部長早。我今天看了一下,就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛,我們今天要審議會嘛對不對?對對對。那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大?\n34943\t51813\t其實我們都有準備好請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言\n53294\t75259\t當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎?\n76519\t101690\t這個現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期的那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元\n103250\t132333\t這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造\n133613\t153721\t我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對\n160504\t189324\t全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到\n189864\t204323\t所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去吧?我們都有考量,CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告,其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少?他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事\n205945\t221555\t但是它一定是相關聯阿?怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去,不可能說沒有直接影響。我們減碳是一個全球的價值、一個責任。那電價是電價,所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的。但是電價成本提高的時候,轉嫁到名稱消費的時候,它就是提高的。這是一定會呈現出來的。\n232102\t255076\t但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24%\n257737\t280682\t按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用\n282763\t310943\t我們希望我們希望因為我並不是收一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們所以這個就是我要講的\n311283\t311403\t拜訪委員\n328234\t328254\t好﹖\n355322\t372935\t我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用\n377819\t398119\t天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說假設苗栗越來越熱,然後我們很多現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了。我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情。所以它的擴及的方面是很廣的?很廣很廣。那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年。\n399700\t410685\t2026年年中5月才會收到第一筆錢所以我們大概呢整個碳費制度上路之後就我們的費率溫室氣體管理基金應該就會來討論這個議題但是我們會依據法令來解決來處理謝謝部長那另外我再問一下\n416108\t440405\t我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說\n442008\t454220\t我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把我們現在的49場的垃圾山把它降下來?包圍三年,就是到2026年的6月\n459212\t477888\t因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種節慮來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概\n479089\t479109\t邱鎮軍\n494580\t509095\t但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助\n511802\t525690\t委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的\n527351\t541869\t對對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說\n542850\t542870\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席好,我們有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。部長早。我今天看了一下,就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛,我們今天要審議會嘛對不對?對對對。那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大?\n其實我們都有準備好請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言\n當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎?\n這個現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期的那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元\n這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造\n我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對\n全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到\n所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去吧?我們都有考量,CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告,其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少?他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事\n但是它一定是相關聯阿?怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去,不可能說沒有直接影響。我們減碳是一個全球的價值、一個責任。那電價是電價,所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的。但是電價成本提高的時候,轉嫁到名稱消費的時候,它就是提高的。這是一定會呈現出來的。\n但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24%\n按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用\n我們希望我們希望因為我並不是收一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們所以這個就是我要講的\n拜訪委員\n好﹖\n我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用\n天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說假設苗栗越來越熱,然後我們很多現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了。我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情。所以它的擴及的方面是很廣的?很廣很廣。那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年。\n2026年年中5月才會收到第一筆錢所以我們大概呢整個碳費制度上路之後就我們的費率溫室氣體管理基金應該就會來討論這個議題但是我們會依據法令來解決來處理謝謝部長那另外我再問一下\n我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說\n我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把我們現在的49場的垃圾山把它降下來?包圍三年,就是到2026年的6月\n因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種節慮來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概\n邱鎮軍\n但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助\n委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的\n對對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.696 --> 00:33.963\n主席好,我們有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。部長早。我今天看了一下,就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛,我們今天要審議會嘛對不對?對對對。那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大?\n\n00:34.943 --> 00:51.813\n其實我們都有準備好請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言\n\n00:53.294 --> 01:15.259\n當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎?\n\n01:16.519 --> 01:41.690\n這個現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期的那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元\n\n01:43.250 --> 02:12.333\n這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造\n\n02:13.613 --> 02:33.721\n我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對\n\n02:40.504 --> 03:09.324\n全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到\n\n03:09.864 --> 03:24.323\n所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去吧?我們都有考量,CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告,其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少?他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事\n\n03:25.945 --> 03:41.555\n但是它一定是相關聯阿?怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去,不可能說沒有直接影響。我們減碳是一個全球的價值、一個責任。那電價是電價,所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的。但是電價成本提高的時候,轉嫁到名稱消費的時候,它就是提高的。這是一定會呈現出來的。\n\n03:52.102 --> 04:15.076\n但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24%\n\n04:17.737 --> 04:40.682\n按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用\n\n04:42.763 --> 05:10.943\n我們希望我們希望因為我並不是收一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們所以這個就是我要講的\n\n05:11.283 --> 05:11.403\n拜訪委員\n\n05:28.234 --> 05:28.254\n好﹖\n\n05:55.322 --> 06:12.935\n我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用\n\n06:17.819 --> 06:38.119\n天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說假設苗栗越來越熱,然後我們很多現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了。我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情。所以它的擴及的方面是很廣的?很廣很廣。那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年。\n\n06:39.700 --> 06:50.685\n2026年年中5月才會收到第一筆錢所以我們大概呢整個碳費制度上路之後就我們的費率溫室氣體管理基金應該就會來討論這個議題但是我們會依據法令來解決來處理謝謝部長那另外我再問一下\n\n06:56.108 --> 07:20.405\n我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說\n\n07:22.008 --> 07:34.220\n我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把我們現在的49場的垃圾山把它降下來?包圍三年,就是到2026年的6月\n\n07:39.212 --> 07:57.888\n因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種節慮來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概\n\n07:59.089 --> 07:59.109\n邱鎮軍\n\n08:14.580 --> 08:29.095\n但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助\n\n08:31.802 --> 08:45.690\n委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的\n\n08:47.351 --> 09:01.869\n對對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說\n\n09:02.850 --> 09:02.870\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.696,"end":33.963,"text":"主席好,我們有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。部長早。我今天看了一下,就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛,我們今天要審議會嘛對不對?對對對。那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大?"},{"start":34.943,"end":51.813,"text":"其實我們都有準備好請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言"},{"start":53.294,"end":75.259,"text":"當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎?"},{"start":76.519,"end":101.69,"text":"這個現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期的那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元"},{"start":103.25,"end":132.333,"text":"這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造"},{"start":133.613,"end":153.721,"text":"我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對"},{"start":160.504,"end":189.324,"text":"全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到"},{"start":189.864,"end":204.323,"text":"所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去吧?我們都有考量,CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告,其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少?他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事"},{"start":205.945,"end":221.555,"text":"但是它一定是相關聯阿?怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去,不可能說沒有直接影響。我們減碳是一個全球的價值、一個責任。那電價是電價,所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的。但是電價成本提高的時候,轉嫁到名稱消費的時候,它就是提高的。這是一定會呈現出來的。"},{"start":232.102,"end":255.076,"text":"但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24%"},{"start":257.737,"end":280.682,"text":"按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用"},{"start":282.763,"end":310.943,"text":"我們希望我們希望因為我並不是收一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們所以這個就是我要講的"},{"start":311.283,"end":311.403,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":328.234,"end":328.254,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":355.322,"end":372.935,"text":"我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用"},{"start":377.819,"end":398.119,"text":"天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說假設苗栗越來越熱,然後我們很多現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了。我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情。所以它的擴及的方面是很廣的?很廣很廣。那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年。"},{"start":399.7,"end":410.685,"text":"2026年年中5月才會收到第一筆錢所以我們大概呢整個碳費制度上路之後就我們的費率溫室氣體管理基金應該就會來討論這個議題但是我們會依據法令來解決來處理謝謝部長那另外我再問一下"},{"start":416.108,"end":440.405,"text":"我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說"},{"start":442.008,"end":454.22,"text":"我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把我們現在的49場的垃圾山把它降下來?包圍三年,就是到2026年的6月"},{"start":459.212,"end":477.888,"text":"因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種節慮來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概"},{"start":479.089,"end":479.109,"text":"邱鎮軍"},{"start":494.58,"end":509.095,"text":"但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助"},{"start":511.802,"end":525.69,"text":"委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的"},{"start":527.351,"end":541.869,"text":"對對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說"},{"start":542.85,"end":542.87,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:08:54 - 10:18:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155106,"gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時9分）主席好，我們有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長早。我那天看了一下說今天碳費要拍板定案，我們今天要開審議會嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們都準備好了，請委員可以放心，因為上次委員也質詢我說初期不要太高，我也非常贊同，所以先低後高，要穩健上路，這是最重要的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為昨天工總有發出建言啦，當然他們說碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元，優惠費率大概6元，跟我們講的優惠費率，我們的目前是……你上次跟我講100嘛，好像差蠻多。我今天當然也有看到我們的A方案，每噸大概是30至35元，這個部分有可能執行嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個他們正在開會，所以我不知道，我當然是希望……因為有一點差距，就會有一點減碳的誘因，目前我看到他們上一次會議的結論，大概就是這個數字的附近，但是我必須說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：原則上就是以不超過100元為目標嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：就是所謂的優惠費率啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然這是初期啦，那未來怎麼辦？我看你們目標好像要調到1,200元？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是未來，因為其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來是多久以後？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是2030，但是我必須說碳費這種制度，在臺灣推動起來就像是繳稅一樣，對很多企業來說，會覺得這是一個負擔，我們也一直在溝通，看要如何轉型，所以我們未來會推動總量管制的碳交易，因為從歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看，碳交易才可以創造市場，這是我們未來會努力的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到今年4月份調了電費，央行也說了，產業用電要漲12.7%，產業生產成本會提高，這可能轉嫁到消費者身上，為了穩定物價，所以當時CPI上升0.27%，這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%，全年CPI間接影響大概0.15%，您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去？台電會不會一直持續下去？"],["彭部長啓明：我相信國際電價其實會隨著政經、地緣政治的關係變動，如果戰爭能夠結束，當然就會有一點波動，但是我必須跟委員報告，目前電價上漲對CPI的衝擊，相比碳費連它的十分之一都不到，所以我們其實能夠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們在課徵這個都有把它考量進去嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們都有考慮CPI或GDP的影響。也跟委員報告，其實我到歐盟去也問過他們：你們CPI是多少？他們說他們沒有在算這個的，因為碳費跟電價是兩件事。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但它一定是相關聯的啊！怎麼會是兩件事呢？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它絕對是一直影響下去，不可能沒有直接影響。"],["彭部長啓明：減碳是全球的價值、責任，電價是電價，所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的，但是我必須說，我也知道……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是電價成本提高，轉嫁到民生消費的時候，它就是提高的啊！這是一定會呈現出來的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，但我們面對減碳的責任，這是全世界一起動的，我們也不能置身事外。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我也不是說不做這件事情，我只是希望在做這些設定時一定要考慮對於整個CPI的影響，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看台塑花了16年減碳24%，照你們訂的優惠費率標準，鋼鐵業要減碳25%，水泥業減碳22%，其他行業減碳42%，我想問的是，第一波收碳費的500家廠商，在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望全部都要用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：全部都要用，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望，因為我並不是要收一筆錢來給國庫使用、給環境部使用，我希望都可以用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我打個比方，像進口水泥這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的碳排，這部分要收碳費嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前不用，但是跟委員報告，因為我們會開始研議臺版的CBAM，類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制，因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們臺灣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這就是我要講的，以水泥來講，當進口成本比自己生產成本低的時候，臺灣的企業就會受到影響，甚至於出走，所以剛剛部長講的，我就是希望我們要有臺版CBAM的版本出來，讓我們的企業能夠留在臺灣。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前我們正在跨部會協調，進口的水泥業者、我們本地要收碳費的業者可以跟我們說他進口的業者是誰、競爭者是誰，我們會協調各個部會，針對進口來的水泥、鋼筋等等，希望他們先申報，我們完全是比照歐盟的方式來進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我再問一下，現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排，還是部會搶錢的一個……"],["彭部長啓明：為了淨零碳排，我希望收得越低越好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這麼多錢到底怎麼用？到時候收的錢怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則，舉例來說，如氣候變遷的調適、天災調適的費用，或是說幫助我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：天災怎麼調適？調適什麼東西？"],["彭部長啓明：例如苗栗越來越熱，現在很多農產品可能沒有辦法在那個地方生產，我們要輔導農民做一些別的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以它擴及的方面很廣喔？"],["彭部長啓明：很廣、很廣，但是它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個東西什麼時候會出來？"],["彭部長啓明：目前碳費最快是在後年收到，2026年年中（5月）才會收到第一筆錢，整個碳費制度上路之後，我們的費率……溫室氣體管理基金應該就會討論這個議題，我們會依據法令來解決、處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。另外，我再問一下，我不得不稱讚你一下，今天來做垃圾山的專案報告，昨天就發新聞了，可見部長真的很重視這一塊，也是真的想好好處理這部分。我看到您從上任到現在，山頭有慢慢減少，最近好像減少了4場（4座山），當然我們也希望能持續，但您說多久要把現在的53場垃圾山降下來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，3年，就是到2026年的6月，因為我是在端午節宣示。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是剩下3年，那1年至少要幾座？"],["彭部長啓明：1年……委員不能這樣算，因為現在還有很多在發包，現在這幾個月比較慢，不能用這種……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我也謝謝你，您也同意補助苗栗大概1.1億，讓我們苗栗市的垃圾場來處理。另外還有一件事，我們後龍資源回收儲存廠因為中央政策的改變，必須要遷建，整個計畫大概要1.6億元，但是目前因為資源循環署的基金規模太小，每一案最高上限只有2,500萬，所以在執行上絕對是有困難的，沒有辦法推動，部長可不可以答應我們，給我們專案的協助？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我們再做整體評估好不好？我剛才的簡報裡面有兩頁提到，我希望推動臺灣有一個全循環的資源循環園區，如果這可以搭配的好，我覺得可以來考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：資源循環，就是回收再利用的一個……"],["彭部長啓明：等於是一個大規模的……對，因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物，應該都有它存在的價值、循環的價值。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然啦，如果把垃圾分類做得更好，這絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果有這樣的場地，我們也希望由部裡面來推動，這在地方上真的常常碰到，因為這是嫌惡設施嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當要推動的時候，往往都會碰到一些困難，明明就是對的事情，搞到後面都不敢做。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我希望從中央開始，我們一起努力達成垃圾減量，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接續請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}}