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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 947.271, \"end\": 948.193, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 948.193, \"end\": 948.554, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 948.554, \"end\": 948.714, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 948.714, \"end\": 948.855, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 948.855, \"end\": 949.496, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 949.496, \"end\": 949.677, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 949.677, \"end\": 949.877, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 949.877, \"end\": 950.017, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 950.017, \"end\": 950.037, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 950.037, \"end\": 950.057, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,595 --> 00:00:02,920\n謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,017 --> 00:00:13,238\n國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家\n\n3\n00:00:38,260 --> 00:00:38,300\n：馬文君\n\n4\n00:00:55,155 --> 00:01:24,195\n美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:26,471 --> 00:01:50,280\n臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要交出臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎\n\n6\n00:01:55,973 --> 00:02:22,055\n這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像\n\n7\n00:02:22,355 --> 00:02:45,785\n部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎\n\n8\n00:02:47,624 --> 00:03:10,858\n美國的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實他是一個農業州吧\n\n9\n00:03:11,909 --> 00:03:12,890\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n10\n00:03:32,227 --> 00:03:36,993\n所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎?比如我們跟美國要採購\n\n11\n00:03:43,905 --> 00:04:02,193\n院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的艦響做得非常好那艦響後來把它拆成可以尖針然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題\n\n12\n00:04:09,697 --> 00:04:38,067\n有沒有問題?沒有。只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。我們剛剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對?是。所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做?可以。當然我還是要再強調一點就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。\n\n13\n00:04:39,090 --> 00:04:43,351\n我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永音號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投出這麼多的科研金費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的\n\n14\n00:05:07,116 --> 00:05:29,813\n其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎\n\n15\n00:05:30,573 --> 00:05:53,758\n有這樣的事情嗎?回答這個部分就好。有嗎?原來跟你配合比如說瑞淵啊或者其他我們有紅雀啊我們之前有騰雲啊我們還有其他的武器裝備這樣子的廠商你們有把他喊停嗎?瑞淵二的下游廠商我們的確通知他先暫停為什麼?因為明年沒有瑞淵二的量產預算那未來會做嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:56,899 --> 00:06:21,446\n我想應該會只要通過……我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停?你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答\n\n17\n00:06:23,447 --> 00:06:52,385\n就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量\n\n18\n00:06:52,745 --> 00:07:14,158\n部長,部長,我們都同意齁,因為之前我就說我們花了超過百億的經費,我們做了騰雲,我們做了瑞淵,我們做了紅雀,甚至尖冰,當然花了錢以後,中途把它停掉了。還有很多其他的,包括現在的建翔,我們都花了很多的錢,那你到底要不要繼續做,那這些才是我們應該要關切的。如果它做得夠好,我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都是買美方的,或者我們要……\n\n19\n00:07:21,442 --> 00:07:27,006\n我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國\n\n20\n00:07:47,401 --> 00:08:02,871\n美國在賣來臺灣給我們這樣我們真的也是一個盤子這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情在這裡我們先提出來不是賣給我們吧是打入國際吧這應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點沒有這個向部長\n\n21\n00:08:05,353 --> 00:08:18,703\n我們希望它不要發生啊,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外\n\n22\n00:08:27,210 --> 00:08:32,734\n美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為\n\n23\n00:08:51,846 --> 00:09:08,039\n因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應\n\n24\n00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,904\n解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫\n\n25\n00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:45,095\n這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:47,977 --> 00:10:05,861\n我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的\n\n27\n00:10:08,462 --> 00:10:15,445\n他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了\n\n28\n00:10:36,954 --> 00:10:52,285\n到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元\n\n29\n00:11:02,412 --> 00:11:25,544\n當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們這樣對我們的安全或者對我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響這些已經都是我們規劃非常久而且認為迫切需要的我們也付了\n\n30\n00:11:26,044 --> 00:11:37,497\n三、四、五、六千多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到。這對我們會有什麼影響?官委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的。是不是?請張律師簡單說明一下。這個部分不要在這裡說明。因為\n\n31\n00:11:41,061 --> 00:11:44,862\n這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了一千六百多億總共特別預算編了兩千五百億而已付了一千六百億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來\n\n32\n00:12:05,290 --> 00:12:33,188\n第4季可以交嗎?我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到所以它對或錯我們不要看數據我們要的是我們看到我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響這才是我們最擔心的好不好?我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到\n\n33\n00:12:33,928 --> 00:12:37,531\n部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在\n\n34\n00:13:00,046 --> 00:13:01,127\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n\n35\n00:13:17,512 --> 00:13:41,418\n老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了\n\n36\n00:13:43,126 --> 00:14:07,174\n未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未報事件我們有沒有去做一個因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個\n\n37\n00:14:08,294 --> 00:14:09,655\n美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行集合調查的程序。\n\n38\n00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:35,335\n我們自己不需要嗎?因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有?\n\n39\n00:14:57,729 --> 00:14:59,090\n部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣子的疑慮\n\n40\n00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:30,809\n你連調查都還沒有調查你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教\n\n41\n00:15:41,098 --> 00:15:50,057\n好,剛剛我提到的部分也請部長可以統整檢視一下然後再給我們相關的一些解答好不好?謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1595\t2920\t謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長\n12017\t13238\t國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家\n38260\t38300\t：馬文君\n55155\t84195\t美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼\n86471\t110280\t臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要交出臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎\n115973\t142055\t這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像\n142355\t165785\t部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎\n167624\t190858\t美國的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實他是一個農業州吧\n191909\t192890\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n212227\t216993\t所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎?比如我們跟美國要採購\n223905\t242193\t院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的艦響做得非常好那艦響後來把它拆成可以尖針然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題\n249697\t278067\t有沒有問題?沒有。只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。我們剛剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對?是。所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做?可以。當然我還是要再強調一點就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。\n279090\t283351\t我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永音號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投出這麼多的科研金費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的\n307116\t329813\t其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎\n330573\t353758\t有這樣的事情嗎?回答這個部分就好。有嗎?原來跟你配合比如說瑞淵啊或者其他我們有紅雀啊我們之前有騰雲啊我們還有其他的武器裝備這樣子的廠商你們有把他喊停嗎?瑞淵二的下游廠商我們的確通知他先暫停為什麼?因為明年沒有瑞淵二的量產預算那未來會做嗎?\n356899\t381446\t我想應該會只要通過……我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停?你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答\n383447\t412385\t就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量\n412745\t434158\t部長,部長,我們都同意齁,因為之前我就說我們花了超過百億的經費,我們做了騰雲,我們做了瑞淵,我們做了紅雀,甚至尖冰,當然花了錢以後,中途把它停掉了。還有很多其他的,包括現在的建翔,我們都花了很多的錢,那你到底要不要繼續做,那這些才是我們應該要關切的。如果它做得夠好,我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都是買美方的,或者我們要……\n441442\t447006\t我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國\n467401\t482871\t美國在賣來臺灣給我們這樣我們真的也是一個盤子這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情在這裡我們先提出來不是賣給我們吧是打入國際吧這應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點沒有 這個向部長\n485353\t498703\t我們希望它不要發生啊,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外\n507210\t512734\t美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為\n531846\t548039\t因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應\n549080\t551904\t解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫\n564639\t585095\t這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎?\n587977\t605861\t我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的\n608462\t615445\t他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了\n636954\t652285\t到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元\n662412\t685544\t當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們這樣對我們的安全或者對我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響這些已經都是我們規劃非常久而且認為迫切需要的我們也付了\n686044\t697497\t三、四、五、六千多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到。這對我們會有什麼影響?官委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的。是不是?請張律師簡單說明一下。這個部分不要在這裡說明。因為\n701061\t704862\t這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了一千六百多億總共特別預算編了兩千五百億而已付了一千六百億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來\n725290\t753188\t第4季可以交嗎?我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到所以它對或錯我們不要看數據我們要的是我們看到我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響這才是我們最擔心的好不好?我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到\n753928\t757531\t部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在\n780046\t781127\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n797512\t821418\t老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了\n823126\t847174\t未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未報事件我們有沒有去做一個因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個\n848294\t849655\t美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行集合調查的程序。\n868070\t875335\t我們自己不需要嗎?因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有?\n897729\t899090\t部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣子的疑慮\n918160\t930809\t你連調查都還沒有調查你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教\n941098\t950057\t好,剛剛我提到的部分也請部長可以統整檢視一下然後再給我們相關的一些解答好不好?謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長\n國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家\n：馬文君\n美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼\n臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要交出臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎\n這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像\n部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎\n美國的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實他是一個農業州吧\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎?比如我們跟美國要採購\n院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的艦響做得非常好那艦響後來把它拆成可以尖針然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題\n有沒有問題?沒有。只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。我們剛剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對?是。所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做?可以。當然我還是要再強調一點就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。\n我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永音號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投出這麼多的科研金費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的\n其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎\n有這樣的事情嗎?回答這個部分就好。有嗎?原來跟你配合比如說瑞淵啊或者其他我們有紅雀啊我們之前有騰雲啊我們還有其他的武器裝備這樣子的廠商你們有把他喊停嗎?瑞淵二的下游廠商我們的確通知他先暫停為什麼?因為明年沒有瑞淵二的量產預算那未來會做嗎?\n我想應該會只要通過……我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停?你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答\n就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量\n部長,部長,我們都同意齁,因為之前我就說我們花了超過百億的經費,我們做了騰雲,我們做了瑞淵,我們做了紅雀,甚至尖冰,當然花了錢以後,中途把它停掉了。還有很多其他的,包括現在的建翔,我們都花了很多的錢,那你到底要不要繼續做,那這些才是我們應該要關切的。如果它做得夠好,我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都是買美方的,或者我們要……\n我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國\n美國在賣來臺灣給我們這樣我們真的也是一個盤子這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情在這裡我們先提出來不是賣給我們吧是打入國際吧這應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點沒有 這個向部長\n我們希望它不要發生啊,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外\n美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為\n因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應\n解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫\n這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎?\n我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的\n他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了\n到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元\n當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們這樣對我們的安全或者對我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響這些已經都是我們規劃非常久而且認為迫切需要的我們也付了\n三、四、五、六千多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到。這對我們會有什麼影響?官委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的。是不是?請張律師簡單說明一下。這個部分不要在這裡說明。因為\n這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了一千六百多億總共特別預算編了兩千五百億而已付了一千六百億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來\n第4季可以交嗎?我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到所以它對或錯我們不要看數據我們要的是我們看到我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響這才是我們最擔心的好不好?我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到\n部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了\n未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未報事件我們有沒有去做一個因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個\n美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行集合調查的程序。\n我們自己不需要嗎?因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有?\n部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣子的疑慮\n你連調查都還沒有調查你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教\n好,剛剛我提到的部分也請部長可以統整檢視一下然後再給我們相關的一些解答好不好?謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.595 --> 00:02.920\n謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長\n\n00:12.017 --> 00:13.238\n國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家\n\n00:38.260 --> 00:38.300\n：馬文君\n\n00:55.155 --> 01:24.195\n美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼\n\n01:26.471 --> 01:50.280\n臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要交出臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎\n\n01:55.973 --> 02:22.055\n這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像\n\n02:22.355 --> 02:45.785\n部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎\n\n02:47.624 --> 03:10.858\n美國的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實他是一個農業州吧\n\n03:11.909 --> 03:12.890\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n03:32.227 --> 03:36.993\n所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎?比如我們跟美國要採購\n\n03:43.905 --> 04:02.193\n院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的艦響做得非常好那艦響後來把它拆成可以尖針然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題\n\n04:09.697 --> 04:38.067\n有沒有問題?沒有。只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。我們剛剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對?是。所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做?可以。當然我還是要再強調一點就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。\n\n04:39.090 --> 04:43.351\n我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永音號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投出這麼多的科研金費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的\n\n05:07.116 --> 05:29.813\n其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎\n\n05:30.573 --> 05:53.758\n有這樣的事情嗎?回答這個部分就好。有嗎?原來跟你配合比如說瑞淵啊或者其他我們有紅雀啊我們之前有騰雲啊我們還有其他的武器裝備這樣子的廠商你們有把他喊停嗎?瑞淵二的下游廠商我們的確通知他先暫停為什麼?因為明年沒有瑞淵二的量產預算那未來會做嗎?\n\n05:56.899 --> 06:21.446\n我想應該會只要通過……我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停?你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答\n\n06:23.447 --> 06:52.385\n就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量\n\n06:52.745 --> 07:14.158\n部長,部長,我們都同意齁,因為之前我就說我們花了超過百億的經費,我們做了騰雲,我們做了瑞淵,我們做了紅雀,甚至尖冰,當然花了錢以後,中途把它停掉了。還有很多其他的,包括現在的建翔,我們都花了很多的錢,那你到底要不要繼續做,那這些才是我們應該要關切的。如果它做得夠好,我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都是買美方的,或者我們要……\n\n07:21.442 --> 07:27.006\n我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國\n\n07:47.401 --> 08:02.871\n美國在賣來臺灣給我們這樣我們真的也是一個盤子這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情在這裡我們先提出來不是賣給我們吧是打入國際吧這應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點沒有這個向部長\n\n08:05.353 --> 08:18.703\n我們希望它不要發生啊,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外\n\n08:27.210 --> 08:32.734\n美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為\n\n08:51.846 --> 09:08.039\n因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應\n\n09:09.080 --> 09:11.904\n解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫\n\n09:24.639 --> 09:45.095\n這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎?\n\n09:47.977 --> 10:05.861\n我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的\n\n10:08.462 --> 10:15.445\n他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了\n\n10:36.954 --> 10:52.285\n到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元\n\n11:02.412 --> 11:25.544\n當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們這樣對我們的安全或者對我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響這些已經都是我們規劃非常久而且認為迫切需要的我們也付了\n\n11:26.044 --> 11:37.497\n三、四、五、六千多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到。這對我們會有什麼影響?官委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的。是不是?請張律師簡單說明一下。這個部分不要在這裡說明。因為\n\n11:41.061 --> 11:44.862\n這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了一千六百多億總共特別預算編了兩千五百億而已付了一千六百億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來\n\n12:05.290 --> 12:33.188\n第4季可以交嗎?我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到所以它對或錯我們不要看數據我們要的是我們看到我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響這才是我們最擔心的好不好?我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到\n\n12:33.928 --> 12:37.531\n部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在\n\n13:00.046 --> 13:01.127\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n\n13:17.512 --> 13:41.418\n老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了\n\n13:43.126 --> 14:07.174\n未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未報事件我們有沒有去做一個因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個\n\n14:08.294 --> 14:09.655\n美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行集合調查的程序。\n\n14:28.070 --> 14:35.335\n我們自己不需要嗎?因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有?\n\n14:57.729 --> 14:59.090\n部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣子的疑慮\n\n15:18.160 --> 15:30.809\n你連調查都還沒有調查你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教\n\n15:41.098 --> 15:50.057\n好,剛剛我提到的部分也請部長可以統整檢視一下然後再給我們相關的一些解答好不好?謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.595,"end":2.92,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12.017,"end":13.238,"text":"國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家"},{"start":38.26,"end":38.3,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":55.155,"end":84.195,"text":"美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼"},{"start":86.471,"end":110.28,"text":"臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要交出臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎"},{"start":115.973,"end":142.055,"text":"這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像"},{"start":142.355,"end":165.785,"text":"部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":167.624,"end":190.858,"text":"美國的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實他是一個農業州吧"},{"start":191.909,"end":192.89,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":212.227,"end":216.993,"text":"所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎?比如我們跟美國要採購"},{"start":223.905,"end":242.193,"text":"院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的艦響做得非常好那艦響後來把它拆成可以尖針然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":249.697,"end":278.067,"text":"有沒有問題?沒有。只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。我們剛剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對?是。所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做?可以。當然我還是要再強調一點就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。"},{"start":279.09,"end":283.351,"text":"我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永音號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投出這麼多的科研金費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的"},{"start":307.116,"end":329.813,"text":"其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎"},{"start":330.573,"end":353.758,"text":"有這樣的事情嗎?回答這個部分就好。有嗎?原來跟你配合比如說瑞淵啊或者其他我們有紅雀啊我們之前有騰雲啊我們還有其他的武器裝備這樣子的廠商你們有把他喊停嗎?瑞淵二的下游廠商我們的確通知他先暫停為什麼?因為明年沒有瑞淵二的量產預算那未來會做嗎?"},{"start":356.899,"end":381.446,"text":"我想應該會只要通過……我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停?你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答"},{"start":383.447,"end":412.385,"text":"就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量"},{"start":412.745,"end":434.158,"text":"部長,部長,我們都同意齁,因為之前我就說我們花了超過百億的經費,我們做了騰雲,我們做了瑞淵,我們做了紅雀,甚至尖冰,當然花了錢以後,中途把它停掉了。還有很多其他的,包括現在的建翔,我們都花了很多的錢,那你到底要不要繼續做,那這些才是我們應該要關切的。如果它做得夠好,我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都是買美方的,或者我們要……"},{"start":441.442,"end":447.006,"text":"我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國"},{"start":467.401,"end":482.871,"text":"美國在賣來臺灣給我們這樣我們真的也是一個盤子這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情在這裡我們先提出來不是賣給我們吧是打入國際吧這應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點沒有 這個向部長"},{"start":485.353,"end":498.703,"text":"我們希望它不要發生啊,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外"},{"start":507.21,"end":512.734,"text":"美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為"},{"start":531.846,"end":548.039,"text":"因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應"},{"start":549.08,"end":551.904,"text":"解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫"},{"start":564.639,"end":585.095,"text":"這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎?"},{"start":587.977,"end":605.861,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的"},{"start":608.462,"end":615.445,"text":"他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了"},{"start":636.954,"end":652.285,"text":"到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元"},{"start":662.412,"end":685.544,"text":"當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們這樣對我們的安全或者對我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響這些已經都是我們規劃非常久而且認為迫切需要的我們也付了"},{"start":686.044,"end":697.497,"text":"三、四、五、六千多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到。這對我們會有什麼影響?官委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的。是不是?請張律師簡單說明一下。這個部分不要在這裡說明。因為"},{"start":701.061,"end":704.862,"text":"這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了一千六百多億總共特別預算編了兩千五百億而已付了一千六百億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來"},{"start":725.29,"end":753.188,"text":"第4季可以交嗎?我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到所以它對或錯我們不要看數據我們要的是我們看到我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響這才是我們最擔心的好不好?我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到"},{"start":753.928,"end":757.531,"text":"部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在"},{"start":780.046,"end":781.127,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情"},{"start":797.512,"end":821.418,"text":"老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了"},{"start":823.126,"end":847.174,"text":"未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未報事件我們有沒有去做一個因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個"},{"start":848.294,"end":849.655,"text":"美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行集合調查的程序。"},{"start":868.07,"end":875.335,"text":"我們自己不需要嗎?因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有?"},{"start":897.729,"end":899.09,"text":"部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣子的疑慮"},{"start":918.16,"end":930.809,"text":"你連調查都還沒有調查你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教"},{"start":941.098,"end":950.057,"text":"好,剛剛我提到的部分也請部長可以統整檢視一下然後再給我們相關的一些解答好不好?謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:06:10 - 10:22:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155107,"gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時6分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。剛剛其實有委員也特別提到，我們現在非常關切的像無人機，或者我們要加入美國供應鏈的這個部分，這個當然也是我們等一下要重點探討的，可是我想國防部跟中科院，其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全，還有我們整個國家對於國防設備、裝備或者武器等等，其實最重要的是要利於我們的國防安全，至於產業的發展或者其他的，不管是無人機的產業，或者能不能加入美國的供應鏈等等，它能不能賺錢，或者是不是有利可圖，那個應該是其他部會，比如像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的，我想這個輕重緩急或者它的重點，我們應該要畫對，所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討，臺美國防工業研討會議最重要的成果是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：臺美國防供應鏈最重要的成果，我想就是我們跟它表示臺美國防產業的韌性要能夠達成雙贏的發展。"],["馬委員文君：所謂的雙贏發展，就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面看到的，主要就是要加速臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈，是這樣嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這個當然是其中一個非常重要的部分，另外當然跟美國那邊有做一些交流，對於如何迅速地籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器，透過多元的管道，特別是一些安援的手段，PDA也好，FMF也好，或者是其他像……"],["馬委員文君：部長，您剛剛有提到迅速籌獲我們需要的武器裝備，因為我們剛剛看到的，大家提出來的、在表面上談到的這些，似乎都不是我們真正迫切需要的，除了剛剛我講到的，成為美國國防產業的供應鏈以外，另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商，有這樣的事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：成為美商的供應商？"],["馬委員文君：對，比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大，也有很多不管是我們國內自己要開發一個基地也好，或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來，奧克拉荷馬州其實是一個農業州吧？無人機的產業在那裡發展得很好嗎？我們現在……"],["顧部長立雄：奧克拉荷馬州的這個部分，我們這邊沒有這樣的訊息存在，至於它跟……"],["馬委員文君：因為它已經跟漢翔還有嘉義縣政府簽了MOU。"],["顧部長立雄：但是就國防部所理解的中科院來講，並沒有這樣的一個計畫存在。"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在要知道的是，中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎？比如我們跟美國要採購，像院長之前還在戰規司的時候，你還特別提到我們的劍翔做得非常好，劍翔後來把它拆成可以監偵，然後攻擊的部分其實是拆開的，這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，是。"],["馬委員文君：所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題？有沒有問題？"],["李院長世強：報告，沒有，只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。"],["馬委員文君：我們剛剛提到了，我們所科研的，投入這麼多的經費，如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造無人機，當然要先供應國防部的需求，對不對？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以這個部分，我們國內自己可不可以做？"],["李院長世強：報告，可以，當然我還是要再強調一遍，就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。"],["馬委員文君：我們過去在做東西的時候，比如你在做潛艦，你在做我們的勇鷹號，你在做其他的武器裝備的時候，你有考慮到國防部應該要提供到多少的量能，他們才可以維持嗎？這是我們要考量的嗎？你今天投入這麼多的科研經費，你今天要做這樣的產業園區，今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊，要採購他們的這些產品，主要的目的，其實我們也是希望產業可以同時發展，對不對？"],["李院長世強：是，委員，我要強調的就是國防供應鏈韌性的問題，因為今天不是只有中科院在生產，有很多我們的供應鏈、下游的廠商在協力我們一起生產……"],["馬委員文君：你們有把它停掉嗎？"],["李院長世強：不能停掉，停掉人家……"],["馬委員文君：有停掉嗎？沒有停掉？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["馬委員文君：你們沒有把原來配合的廠商停掉，叫它先不要做，有這樣子的事情嗎？"],["李院長世強：如果沒有這個單子的話……"],["馬委員文君：有這樣的事情嗎？回答這個部分就好，有嗎？"],["李院長世強：如果沒有……"],["馬委員文君：原來跟你配合，比如說銳鳶或者其他，我們有紅雀，我們之前有騰雲還有其他的武器裝備，這樣子的廠商你們有喊停嗎？"],["李院長世強：報告，銳鳶二的下游廠商我們的確有通知它先暫停。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼？"],["李院長世強：因為明年沒有銳鳶二的量產預算。"],["馬委員文君：未來會做嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想應該會，現在已經通過……"],["馬委員文君：它已經通過了嘛。"],["李院長世強：有通過了。"],["顧部長立雄：有通過了，所以我們……"],["馬委員文君：那為什麼要停？在軍規商用的部分，你們編了很多錢，然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈，可是我們自己已經研發出來，而且已經通過測評的部分，我們卻把它停止不用，我不知道是什麼原因，這個部分因為今天時間的關係，我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告兩點，第一點，銳鳶二型通過作戰測評確實改善，我們也會納入建案，這個是第一個，沒有問題。第二個，所有相關的，包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業，或者其他相關的這些產業，我們主要就是要建立一個自主生產的能力，這個自主生產力不能單靠中科院，還要靠中科院相關的這些下游廠商，這些廠商大家一起合作，能夠進行一個自主的生產能量，這個才是很重要的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們都同意，因為之前我就說過，我們花了超過百億的經費，做了騰雲、做了銳鳶、做了紅雀，甚至尖兵，當然花了錢以後，中途把它停掉了，還有很多其他的，包括現在的劍翔，我們都花了很多的錢，你到底要不要繼續做？這些才是我們應該要關切的，如果它做得夠好，我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都買美方的，或者我們要……"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有停掉。"],["馬委員文君：或者我們要去用，我剛剛唸了很多個，既然部長在這裡也同意，未來我們希望看到到底要怎麼樣去進行，現在我們比較擔心的就是我們成為美國國防的供應鏈，我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分，我們會跟美國採購的部分，我們希望臺灣不要變成代工，把它做出來以後再回到美國，美國再賣給臺灣，這樣我們真的也是一個「盤子」，這個是我們所料想到可能會發生的事情，我們在這裡先提出來。"],["顧部長立雄：不是賣給我們，是打入國際吧！委員這樣的講法好像是有一點講得……我們是希望能夠打入國際。"],["馬委員文君：沒有，部長，我們希望它不要發生啦！如果我們已經可以幫他做，表示我們自己就可以做，你都已經要發展產業園區，你自己都已經科研出來的東西，如果我們幫人家代工，然後再以高價買回來，這樣是對不起國人的，我先提出來。"],["顧部長立雄：我們應該是引進一些美國的關鍵技術來共同研發、生產。"],["馬委員文君：美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們，通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來，如果這麼容易的話，F-16不會到現在連我們說的維修中心也就是維保都還沒有。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係，我現在要再提出來，因為那個是未來可能發生的事情，你們也不用笑，我們希望未來它不要發生，因為這是我們的民脂民膏。美國海軍公布新的戰略文件，在「2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫」中提出33號計畫，要整合人工智慧和無人系統，要提升後勤跟人力素質，要因應解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力，而且強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備，美國提出來的33號計畫有這一個部分，他們提醒因為中共已經要求解放軍在2027年之前做好攻打臺灣的準備，所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備，那現在距離2027年不到3年的時間，如果以美國海軍的標準，我們國軍準備好了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們的目標就是不斷地強化自我防衛的能力，然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量，讓這個在2027年可能會發生的事情不斷地往後遞延，所以我們不斷地強化自我防衛的能力，才能夠產生嚇阻的力量，這是我們現在的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我剛剛講的是美國他們的報告，他們的計畫已經做出很明確的時間點，我們不知道什麼時候會發生，你說我們用文字去敘述說希望它遞延，我們當然希望不要發生，而不是遞延，可是在我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣的準備？美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備，那我們準備了什麼？我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實在之前也都提過了，它在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面指出到8月分為止美國對臺軍售延宕尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額，這個也一而再、再而三地提起，大概有205.3億美元，其中傳統武器有108.7億，不對稱作戰的武器有70億，彈藥有26.6億美元。對這些我們急需、有迫切需要的，我們編了很多的預算，然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們，這樣對我們的安全、我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響？這些都是我們已經規劃非常久而且認為有迫切需要的，我們付的錢也超過六千多億以上，可是到現在都還沒有拿到，這對我們會有什麼樣的影響？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想這個所計算的基礎是不正確的，是不是請戰規司簡單說明一下？"],["馬委員文君：這個部分不要在這裡說明，因為這個部分已經不斷地提出來……"],["顧部長立雄：這個計算基礎是不正確的，我們已經一再地說明。"],["馬委員文君：像這些東西我們不要看數字，我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到，比如F-16V，我們已經付了一千六百多億，特別預算總共編了2,500億而已，付了一千六百多億，我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡，本來在去年就應該要交了，今年第三季也沒來，第四季可以交嗎？我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到，所以它對或錯我們不要看數據，我們要看的是我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有，所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響，這才是我們最擔心的，好不好？部長，就這一個部分你們應該要去瞭解。"],["顧部長立雄：我們還是希望F-16的交運可以符合在2026年年底以前全數交運完畢，那我們希望在今年第四季能夠看到首架的飛機。"],["馬委員文君：部長，現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講……你現在都已經出不來，而且面對的國際局勢更嚴峻，連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下，美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難，所以俄烏戰爭跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備，沒有理由你在整個國際局勢更困難的情況之下，我們還可以樂觀的覺得他們可以準時、可以如期如質地交給我們，這是我們要特別提出來的。","接下來跟主席借一點點時間，老實說，我想剛剛在我們的機密報告裡面的內容其實都比報導的還要少，我們有時候不需要，因為當國人都想要非常清楚地知道到底發生什麼事，我們到底被騙了什麼，未來還會不會被騙，這才是國防部應有的態度，在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了，未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未爆事件？因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在過去提供給我們很多的武器裝備，連軍購都可以發生這樣的事情，我們有很多商購的，包括海鯤號，也買了這樣的武器裝備，我們有沒有去做一個通盤的檢視？在經過這個事件以後，我們應該比這個報導之前更早知道，我們有沒有要去掌握？有沒有要去檢視所有的武器採購的部分？部長，有沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：我想美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行稽核調查的程序。"],["馬委員文君：那我們自己不需要嗎？因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴，美國都會發生這樣的事情，而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢、貪瀆還有官商勾結，美國調查的是他們國內的，那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題，這是我在這裡也要提出來的，這是第一個。第二個，有沒有可能還有類似的未爆事件？會不會有？部長有沒有信心可以在這裡回答？"],["顧部長立雄：美國有告訴我們並沒有我方的人員涉入這一點，我想剛剛已經在機密案裡面做一些說明，美方並沒有說明有任何我方的人員涉入。"],["馬委員文君：部長，美方調查的是針對美國的部分，我們現在提出來的是我方有沒有這樣的疑慮，你連調查都還沒有調查，你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況，或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題，不然到時候又被爆出來，那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大。因為時間的關係，我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會儘量來進行查核。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛我提到的部分，也請部長可以統整檢視一下，然後再給我們相關的一些解答，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}