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{\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 393.327, \"end\": 393.547, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 393.547, \"end\": 393.647, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 393.647, \"end\": 393.827, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 393.827, \"end\": 393.847, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 393.847, \"end\": 393.947, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 393.947, \"end\": 394.187, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 394.187, \"end\": 394.347, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 394.347, \"end\": 394.367, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 394.367, \"end\": 394.387, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}]}, {\"start\": 419.438, \"end\": 437.552, \"text\": \"這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長、市長室、縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 419.438, \"end\": 419.638, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 419.638, \"end\": 419.738, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 419.738, \"end\": 419.838, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 419.838, \"end\": 419.998, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 419.998, \"end\": 420.279, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 420.279, \"end\": 420.699, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 420.699, \"end\": 420.919, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 420.919, \"end\": 421.059, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 421.059, \"end\": 421.7, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 421.7, \"end\": 421.9, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"勤\", \"start\": 421.9, \"end\": 422.1, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 422.1, \"end\": 422.42, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"揮\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 422.42, \"end\": 422.62, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 422.62, \"end\": 422.841, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 422.841, \"end\": 423.101, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 423.101, \"end\": 423.341, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"勤\", \"start\": 423.341, \"end\": 423.661, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"謀\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 423.661, \"end\": 423.821, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 423.821, \"end\": 424.742, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 424.742, \"end\": 425.683, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 425.683, \"end\": 425.823, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 425.823, \"end\": 425.943, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 425.943, \"end\": 426.083, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 426.083, \"end\": 426.243, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 426.243, \"end\": 426.784, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 426.784, \"end\": 428.205, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 428.205, \"end\": 428.385, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 428.385, \"end\": 428.725, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 428.725, \"end\": 428.885, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 428.885, \"end\": 429.826, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 429.826, \"end\": 430.347, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 430.347, \"end\": 431.507, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 431.507, \"end\": 432.148, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 432.148, \"end\": 432.829, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 432.829, \"end\": 433.169, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 433.169, \"end\": 433.269, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 433.269, \"end\": 433.389, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 433.389, \"end\": 433.509, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 433.509, \"end\": 433.589, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 433.589, \"end\": 433.709, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 433.709, \"end\": 434.87, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 434.87, \"end\": 435.05, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 435.05, \"end\": 435.15, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"情\", 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\"籌\"}]}, {\"start\": 439.181, \"end\": 464.725, \"text\": \"所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 439.181, \"end\": 439.601, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 439.601, \"end\": 440.401, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 440.401, \"end\": 440.741, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 440.741, \"end\": 441.141, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 441.141, \"end\": 441.261, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 441.261, \"end\": 441.681, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 441.681, \"end\": 441.881, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 441.881, \"end\": 442.162, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 442.162, 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\"end\": 460.985, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 460.985, \"end\": 461.565, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 461.565, \"end\": 461.685, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 461.685, \"end\": 461.825, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 461.825, \"end\": 462.365, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 462.365, \"end\": 462.545, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 462.545, \"end\": 462.665, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 462.665, \"end\": 463.325, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 463.325, \"end\": 463.445, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 463.445, \"end\": 463.605, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 463.605, \"end\": 463.765, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 463.765, \"end\": 464.005, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 464.005, 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00:00:46,958\n第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與嘛那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了\n\n3\n00:00:48,639 --> 00:01:08,190\n所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整所以大家包括很多動員計劃跟任務的規劃其實也\n\n4\n00:01:11,171 --> 00:01:38,272\n大家也會愈來愈關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過布袋戲的蘇環真他這個一人三話的蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面蘇環真這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題\n\n5\n00:01:40,470 --> 00:02:01,342\n我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他\n\n6\n00:02:03,939 --> 00:02:24,077\n他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題,也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源,部長同不同意這個概念?\n\n7\n00:02:26,245 --> 00:02:51,458\n對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合……背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,應該,這部長這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定,\n\n8\n00:02:52,478 --> 00:02:56,780\n對,部長,所以接下來的問題就來了其實在我們的這個全民防衛動員準備法裡面其實國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗\n\n9\n00:03:09,986 --> 00:03:32,607\n其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的\n\n10\n00:03:33,516 --> 00:03:45,323\n到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡\n\n11\n00:03:46,767 --> 00:04:15,430\n這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計劃的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務\n\n12\n00:04:18,376 --> 00:04:43,481\n這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼\n\n13\n00:04:44,619 --> 00:05:12,005\n我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情\n\n14\n00:05:12,765 --> 00:05:38,650\n所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌\n\n15\n00:05:40,574 --> 00:05:56,784\n針對這個部分你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告因為我剛好之前在國安會任職那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法\n\n16\n00:05:58,406 --> 00:06:09,298\n對還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個任性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛任性委員會之後是現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段\n\n17\n00:06:12,922 --> 00:06:30,324\n所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際\n\n18\n00:06:31,966 --> 00:06:34,387\n部長,我有問國防部,首先就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行,\n\n19\n00:06:59,438 --> 00:07:17,552\n這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長、市長室、縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌\n\n20\n00:07:19,181 --> 00:07:44,725\n所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌\n\n21\n00:07:48,986 --> 00:07:53,913\n會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是\n\n22\n00:08:01,621 --> 00:08:21,667\n有,內政部嘛,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證。\n\n23\n00:08:22,867 --> 00:08:44,349\n部長因為這個但國安會不會到立法院裡面來備詢是那但是我覺得關於這些情境跟包括實際上面的人數人次在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生的這個相關的想定跟規劃但也希望部長可以跟國安會或者是來反映一下這個事情到底什麼時候\n\n24\n00:08:45,390 --> 00:09:04,875\n可以有一個比較明確的大致的規劃國防部會協助想定這個會協助嘛那尤其剛剛部長也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CI防護的精華演習在9月\n\n25\n00:09:05,995 --> 00:09:34,382\n以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人事上的評估但我們在這一次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清\n\n26\n00:09:35,282 --> 00:09:37,583\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n27\n00:09:56,272 --> 00:10:15,623\n我想委員說得對。所以翰光、童馨、萬安跟明安要一起結合來做規劃。那激發演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習。他比較可能可以分開,但是明安\n\n28\n00:10:17,663 --> 00:10:39,011\n我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通盤檢討這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月\n\n29\n00:10:40,415 --> 00:11:02,169\n我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎\n\n30\n00:11:08,829 --> 00:11:27,657\n我們有一個公開的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要通過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利\n\n31\n00:11:29,639 --> 00:11:56,600\n那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這個40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這些事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成\n\n32\n00:11:58,241 --> 00:12:25,932\n全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構\n\n33\n00:12:27,032 --> 00:12:53,030\n所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟\n\n34\n00:12:54,195 --> 00:13:14,191\n剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方\n\n35\n00:13:14,571 --> 00:13:41,042\n所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的一警一校那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作讓\n\n36\n00:13:42,142 --> 00:14:00,970\n的社會的基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量都名利也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方他的功能會是什麼那他會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題\n\n37\n00:14:02,330 --> 00:14:19,667\n我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n949\t13112\t前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛任性的委員會當然這一次是總統府\n28164\t46958\t第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與嘛那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了\n48639\t68190\t所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整所以大家包括很多動員計劃跟任務的規劃其實也\n71171\t98272\t大家也會愈來愈關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過布袋戲的蘇環真他這個一人三話的蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面蘇環真這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題\n100470\t121342\t我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他\n123939\t144077\t他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題,也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源,部長同不同意這個概念?\n146245\t171458\t對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合……背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,應該,這部長這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定,\n172478\t176780\t對,部長,所以接下來的問題就來了其實在我們的這個全民防衛動員準備法裡面其實國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗\n189986\t212607\t其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的\n213516\t225323\t到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡\n226767\t255430\t這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計劃的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務\n258376\t283481\t這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼\n284619\t312005\t我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情\n312765\t338650\t所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌\n340574\t356784\t針對這個部分你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告因為我剛好之前在國安會任職那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法\n358406\t369298\t對還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個任性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛任性委員會之後是現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段\n372922\t390324\t所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際\n391966\t394387\t部長,我有問國防部,首先就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行,\n419438\t437552\t這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長、市長室、縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌\n439181\t464725\t所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌\n468986\t473913\t會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是\n481621\t501667\t有,內政部嘛,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證。\n502867\t524349\t部長因為這個但國安會不會到立法院裡面來備詢是那但是我覺得關於這些情境跟包括實際上面的人數人次在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生的這個相關的想定跟規劃但也希望部長可以跟國安會或者是來反映一下這個事情到底什麼時候\n525390\t544875\t可以有一個比較明確的大致的規劃國防部會協助想定這個會協助嘛那尤其剛剛部長也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CI防護的精華演習在9月\n545995\t574382\t以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人事上的評估但我們在這一次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清\n575282\t577583\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n596272\t615623\t我想委員說得對。所以翰光、童馨、萬安跟明安要一起結合來做規劃。那激發演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習。他比較可能可以分開,但是明安\n617663\t639011\t我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通盤檢討這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月\n640415\t662169\t我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎\n668829\t687657\t我們有一個公開的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要通過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利\n689639\t716600\t那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這個40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這些事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成\n718241\t745932\t全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構\n747032\t773030\t所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟\n774195\t794191\t剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方\n794571\t821042\t所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的一警一校那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作讓\n822142\t840970\t的社會的基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量都名利也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方他的功能會是什麼那他會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題\n842330\t859667\t我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛任性的委員會當然這一次是總統府\n第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與嘛那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了\n所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整所以大家包括很多動員計劃跟任務的規劃其實也\n大家也會愈來愈關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過布袋戲的蘇環真他這個一人三話的蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面蘇環真這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題\n我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他\n他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題,也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源,部長同不同意這個概念?\n對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合……背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,應該,這部長這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定,\n對,部長,所以接下來的問題就來了其實在我們的這個全民防衛動員準備法裡面其實國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗\n其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的\n到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡\n這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計劃的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務\n這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼\n我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情\n所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌\n針對這個部分你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告因為我剛好之前在國安會任職那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法\n對還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個任性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛任性委員會之後是現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段\n所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際\n部長,我有問國防部,首先就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行,\n這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長、市長室、縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌\n所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌\n會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是\n有,內政部嘛,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證。\n部長因為這個但國安會不會到立法院裡面來備詢是那但是我覺得關於這些情境跟包括實際上面的人數人次在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生的這個相關的想定跟規劃但也希望部長可以跟國安會或者是來反映一下這個事情到底什麼時候\n可以有一個比較明確的大致的規劃國防部會協助想定這個會協助嘛那尤其剛剛部長也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CI防護的精華演習在9月\n以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人事上的評估但我們在這一次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n我想委員說得對。所以翰光、童馨、萬安跟明安要一起結合來做規劃。那激發演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習。他比較可能可以分開,但是明安\n我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通盤檢討這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月\n我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎\n我們有一個公開的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要通過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利\n那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這個40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這些事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成\n全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構\n所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟\n剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方\n所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的一警一校那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作讓\n的社會的基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量都名利也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方他的功能會是什麼那他會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題\n我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.949 --> 00:13.112\n前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛任性的委員會當然這一次是總統府\n\n00:28.164 --> 00:46.958\n第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與嘛那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了\n\n00:48.639 --> 01:08.190\n所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整所以大家包括很多動員計劃跟任務的規劃其實也\n\n01:11.171 --> 01:38.272\n大家也會愈來愈關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過布袋戲的蘇環真他這個一人三話的蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面蘇環真這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題\n\n01:40.470 --> 02:01.342\n我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他\n\n02:03.939 --> 02:24.077\n他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題,也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源,部長同不同意這個概念?\n\n02:26.245 --> 02:51.458\n對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合……背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,應該,這部長這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定,\n\n02:52.478 --> 02:56.780\n對,部長,所以接下來的問題就來了其實在我們的這個全民防衛動員準備法裡面其實國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗\n\n03:09.986 --> 03:32.607\n其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的\n\n03:33.516 --> 03:45.323\n到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡\n\n03:46.767 --> 04:15.430\n這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計劃的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務\n\n04:18.376 --> 04:43.481\n這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼\n\n04:44.619 --> 05:12.005\n我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情\n\n05:12.765 --> 05:38.650\n所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌\n\n05:40.574 --> 05:56.784\n針對這個部分你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告因為我剛好之前在國安會任職那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法\n\n05:58.406 --> 06:09.298\n對還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個任性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛任性委員會之後是現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段\n\n06:12.922 --> 06:30.324\n所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際\n\n06:31.966 --> 06:34.387\n部長,我有問國防部,首先就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行,\n\n06:59.438 --> 07:17.552\n這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長、市長室、縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌\n\n07:19.181 --> 07:44.725\n所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌\n\n07:48.986 --> 07:53.913\n會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是\n\n08:01.621 --> 08:21.667\n有,內政部嘛,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證。\n\n08:22.867 --> 08:44.349\n部長因為這個但國安會不會到立法院裡面來備詢是那但是我覺得關於這些情境跟包括實際上面的人數人次在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生的這個相關的想定跟規劃但也希望部長可以跟國安會或者是來反映一下這個事情到底什麼時候\n\n08:45.390 --> 09:04.875\n可以有一個比較明確的大致的規劃國防部會協助想定這個會協助嘛那尤其剛剛部長也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CI防護的精華演習在9月\n\n09:05.995 --> 09:34.382\n以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人事上的評估但我們在這一次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清\n\n09:35.282 --> 09:37.583\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n09:56.272 --> 10:15.623\n我想委員說得對。所以翰光、童馨、萬安跟明安要一起結合來做規劃。那激發演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習。他比較可能可以分開,但是明安\n\n10:17.663 --> 10:39.011\n我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通盤檢討這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月\n\n10:40.415 --> 11:02.169\n我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎\n\n11:08.829 --> 11:27.657\n我們有一個公開的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要通過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利\n\n11:29.639 --> 11:56.600\n那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這個40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這些事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成\n\n11:58.241 --> 12:25.932\n全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構\n\n12:27.032 --> 12:53.030\n所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟\n\n12:54.195 --> 13:14.191\n剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方\n\n13:14.571 --> 13:41.042\n所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的一警一校那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作讓\n\n13:42.142 --> 14:00.970\n的社會的基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量都名利也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方他的功能會是什麼那他會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題\n\n14:02.330 --> 14:19.667\n我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.949,"end":13.112,"text":"前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛任性的委員會當然這一次是總統府"},{"start":28.164,"end":46.958,"text":"第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與嘛那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了"},{"start":48.639,"end":68.19,"text":"所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整所以大家包括很多動員計劃跟任務的規劃其實也"},{"start":71.171,"end":98.272,"text":"大家也會愈來愈關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過布袋戲的蘇環真他這個一人三話的蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面蘇環真這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題"},{"start":100.47,"end":121.342,"text":"我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他"},{"start":123.939,"end":144.077,"text":"他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題,也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源,部長同不同意這個概念?"},{"start":146.245,"end":171.458,"text":"對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合……背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,應該,這部長這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定,"},{"start":172.478,"end":176.78,"text":"對,部長,所以接下來的問題就來了其實在我們的這個全民防衛動員準備法裡面其實國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗"},{"start":189.986,"end":212.607,"text":"其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的"},{"start":213.516,"end":225.323,"text":"到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡"},{"start":226.767,"end":255.43,"text":"這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計劃的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務"},{"start":258.376,"end":283.481,"text":"這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼"},{"start":284.619,"end":312.005,"text":"我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情"},{"start":312.765,"end":338.65,"text":"所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌"},{"start":340.574,"end":356.784,"text":"針對這個部分你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告因為我剛好之前在國安會任職那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法"},{"start":358.406,"end":369.298,"text":"對還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個任性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛任性委員會之後是現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段"},{"start":372.922,"end":390.324,"text":"所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際"},{"start":391.966,"end":394.387,"text":"部長,我有問國防部,首先就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行,"},{"start":419.438,"end":437.552,"text":"這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長、市長室、縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌"},{"start":439.181,"end":464.725,"text":"所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌"},{"start":468.986,"end":473.913,"text":"會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是"},{"start":481.621,"end":501.667,"text":"有,內政部嘛,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證。"},{"start":502.867,"end":524.349,"text":"部長因為這個但國安會不會到立法院裡面來備詢是那但是我覺得關於這些情境跟包括實際上面的人數人次在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生的這個相關的想定跟規劃但也希望部長可以跟國安會或者是來反映一下這個事情到底什麼時候"},{"start":525.39,"end":544.875,"text":"可以有一個比較明確的大致的規劃國防部會協助想定這個會協助嘛那尤其剛剛部長也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CI防護的精華演習在9月"},{"start":545.995,"end":574.382,"text":"以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人事上的評估但我們在這一次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清"},{"start":575.282,"end":577.583,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":596.272,"end":615.623,"text":"我想委員說得對。所以翰光、童馨、萬安跟明安要一起結合來做規劃。那激發演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習。他比較可能可以分開,但是明安"},{"start":617.663,"end":639.011,"text":"我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通盤檢討這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月"},{"start":640.415,"end":662.169,"text":"我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":668.829,"end":687.657,"text":"我們有一個公開的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要通過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利"},{"start":689.639,"end":716.6,"text":"那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這個40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這些事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成"},{"start":718.241,"end":745.932,"text":"全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構"},{"start":747.032,"end":773.03,"text":"所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟"},{"start":774.195,"end":794.191,"text":"剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方"},{"start":794.571,"end":821.042,"text":"所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的一警一校那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作讓"},{"start":822.142,"end":840.97,"text":"的社會的基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量都名利也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方他的功能會是什麼那他會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題"},{"start":842.33,"end":859.667,"text":"我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:22:26 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10:36:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155113,"gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛韌性的委員會，這一次是總統府第一次來召開這個委員會，這當然也是接下來臺灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常、非常重要的主題，我知道除了部長有參與之外，還有很多其他的部會，也包括很多民間的團體、產業界，其實大家也都參與了。大家現在會很關注的點就是從過去大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間了，我知道國防部一直是由全動署來做有一點像是幕僚單位的綜整，包括很多動員計畫跟任務的規劃，其實大家也會越來越關注，甚至希望有更多的細節出來。我想先問部長，你有沒有看過布袋戲的素還真？這個是一人三化的素還真，你有沒有看過？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：你沒有看布袋戲？"],["顧部長立雄：小時候有看。"],["洪委員申翰：那是在很久以前。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在布袋戲裡面，素還真這個角色一個人扮演三個功能，現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題：我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面，在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個警消一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色？他是同一個人，他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次，但是在三個計畫裡面都有他，那他到底要去哪裡？他到底要做什麼工作？有蠻多關注全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題，也就是說，我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源，部長你同不同意這個概念？"],["顧部長立雄：對，就是說那個背景的想定必須要更結合……"],["洪委員申翰：對，背景的想定要夠清楚，這要符合真正能夠動用的資源，部長，這個概念你應該是同意的吧！"],["顧部長立雄：對，就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是在任何的緊急狀況之下，資源有可能是有限的，所以他必須要去想定這些有限資源要做如何的調配，而不是說他想定某個單一的狀況，然後他可以投入全部的資源在這上面。"],["洪委員申翰：對，部長，所以接下來的問題就來了，在我們的全民防衛動員準備法裡面，其實國防部的角色不只是帶兵打仗，它更要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署人力物力的資源，這都是國防部可以動員的問題，所以國防部在擬定計畫的時候，它就必須要了解跟其他部會的相關連動，可是現在我們看到一個狀況，在預想演練情境的時候，就像我剛才講的，到底我們的警消或其他公務人員的任務設定是什麼？接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分，到底要調動多少？調動去哪裡？這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃？針對各部會動員計畫的問題，我其實去問了警政署，我問他第一個在動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力？第二個問他既然預知警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百，但有沒有演練過90%、80%、70%？在警力壓縮的狀況下，它要怎麼維持治安防衛的任務？這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題，但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣說的：動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人、執行什麼任務，我們現在不會知道。他們說等到動員時期，國防部自然會跟他們說，或者是說：我不知道調動人數，所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你，到時候在警力壓縮裡面，我要執行我的治安維護計畫的話，我要怎麼來規劃。現在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情，所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把它可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力，把警消的人力給計算出來的話，其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候，它會有很大的困難，它可能也會卡住，不然可能會變成它就是要設想用百分百的警力去做一件事情，可是就像剛才部長說的，這件事情幾乎是不不太可能的事情。所以人員的重複使用，在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面，看起來是一個問題，其他部會現在確實是要等待國防部給這個情境，可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候，又發現幾個狀況。我們在問國防部的時候，國防部跟我們說：部會都跟國防部有相關，可是不知道是誰要統籌？部長，針對這個部分，你覺得該怎麼處理？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我剛好之前在國安會任職，在相當的時間裡面，我們陸續地去盤點這些相關法規，特別是依照全動法還有民防法，可能我們應該有的一個韌性的準備。總統成立全民防衛韌性委員會之後，現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的階段，所以整個漢光演習應該要結合民安跟萬安的演習。當然過去本來就有一些結合，不過像民安的話，它都是由地方政府自己來進行，所以我們現在必須要將想定更符合實際的場景，然後來進行一個驗證。這樣子的相關作為已經正在進行當中，因為這是就民力應用的部分，內政部會跟我們這邊來……以國安會為主導，然後會來進行相關的規劃。"],["洪委員申翰：部長。我有問了國防部，就像部長剛才說的盤點、規劃這件事情要進行，這兩個月其實我也找了全動署，包括陸軍後勤指揮部，包括後勤參謀次長室、憲指部等等，我也問他們這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行？這些單位都回答說：這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯，但都不是我們統籌。所以現在的問題是，當我們要來找這個大腦中樞到底是誰來統籌、誰來做情境規劃的時候，我想問就國防部裡面，因為全動署是全動法的秘書，那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃？"],["顧部長立雄：關於跨部會的統籌，我想因為這個部分涉及到國軍的部分，所以整個統籌應該是由國安會來負責統籌。"],["洪委員申翰：會是由國安會統籌是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：對，因為全民防衛韌性委員會的執行秘書是內政部，然後副召集人是國安會，所以國安會針對涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌，來進行符合實際景況的一些推演、想定，然後進行演練及驗證。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，當然國安會不會到立法院來備詢，但是我覺得關於這些情境，包括實際上面的人數、人次，在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生，相關的想定跟規劃當然也希望部長可以跟國安會反映一下，看看這個事情到底什麼時候可以有一個比較明確的大致規劃。"],["顧部長立雄：國防部會協助想定。"],["洪委員申翰：這個會協助嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其部長剛剛也談到國防部的漢光、同心、萬安演習，比方說它在7月，但涉及到民防、災防的民安演習在5月，涉及到CIA防護的金華演習在9月，以我們不同的演習、不同的演練是在不同的時間裡面，都可能會讓大家錯估了可運用人力的這個問題。針對這部分，當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要把這些綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估，尤其是人事上的評估，但我們在這次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道，這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清，其他部會能夠去做的相關動員計畫很可能就存在高度的不確定，甚至在驗證上面都不確定，我們驗證起來，到底是在驗證真的，還是在驗證假的？其實這對於整體的防衛動員計畫來說都是一個很大的風險，我還是想在這邊表達這件事情。"],["顧部長立雄：委員說的對，所以漢光、同心、萬安跟民安要一起結合來做規劃，金華演習的部分是屬於重大人為的維安，或者是恐怖攻擊的演習，它比較可能可以分開，但是民安、萬安、同心這些現在仍然在規劃的階段，我們會整個通盤檢討實際的場景，並適切來統合規劃。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，針對通盤檢討，我們看到這一次在委員會開完以後，你們有說你們會綜合來評估，大概什麼時候會有一個結果？三個月可不可以？如果給我們一個規劃的報告，三個月可不可以？"],["顧部長立雄：據我的理解，現在正在進行討論當中，內政部會提出一個計畫出來，我們也會提出一個想定出來，然後國安會會做一個討論。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理，我可不可以請國防部用三個月的時間給外交及國防委員會一個報告？可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有一個公開版的想定，我想這可以提供……"],["洪委員申翰：可以吧！我們要透過這個想定作為一個評估依據的基礎。","再來一件事情是我想再問部長，在全社會防衛韌性委員會上面有提到所謂40萬民力，我知道現在有一些媒體一直想把這40萬民力講成你是不是要搞全民皆兵等等這些事情，我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長，就部長所知，這40萬民力可能會從什麼地方來？我知道主管機關可能是在內政部，但是就你知道的，這所謂40萬民力跟現在媒體或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成的全民皆兵，這中間的差別是什麼？或者它從哪裡來？"],["顧部長立雄：它是民力，不是民兵，這是第一點。第二點，內政部應該會結合義警、義消、還有替代役，因為現在民防的組織人力有老化的現象，所以必須要引進替代役的人力，然後再結合義警、義消，建構一個社區的防護隊等等，是這樣子的概念來建構。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這40萬民力假設我們招募得到的話，它跟國軍的工作、要打仗的工作之間會有什麼差別？我要說的是，這個說法目前已經在很多民間、包括有一些媒體，有些人在操作這件事情流傳，我在這邊想要提醒的事情是，我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息，這裡面所謂40萬民力、民防，到底跟剛剛說到被講成的全民皆兵之間有什麼差別？"],["顧部長立雄：本來根據民防法的相關規定，就是要建構一個應該要有民防團隊，它再結合相關的義警、義消等等，這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上有值得檢討的地方，所以必須要就這個民防團隊的組織、訓練等等加以強化，這個時候替代役的部分就會加入，另外當然還有其他的義警、義消，最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的國家韌性，讓政府持續運作，也讓社會基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作。"],["洪委員申翰：我自己建議國防部或者應該跟內政部一起，對於這些所謂的民間力量──民力也好、民防也好，到底接下來會用在什麼地方、它的功能會是什麼、它會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題，我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明，不要讓大家誤會成是全民皆兵、還是什麼軍閥團練之類的事情，我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情，我要麻煩部長特別留意。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。","待會林楚茵委員質詢完畢之後先休息5分鐘。","下一位請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}